Hitachi XWX Red Push in HDTV vs NTSC?? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 529 Old 11-21-2002, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi All,

OK, this time a question about "Red Push" on the XWX.

With the default settings, red push was severe. After toying around with Avaya things are much better.

Still, I notice that the level of Red Push is MUCH higher when using the HDTV tuner than with the NTSC tuner. When using the HDTV tuner I need to bring color saturation down to about 18%. With NTSC it needs to be at about 34% which is a bit high for DVD but not by too much.

Is this normal? Should the level of "red push" remain more or less consistent regardless of source?

I have heard that an advantage of the Hitachi is that red push can be adjusted. Is this something which mere mortals can do or does it require ISF calibration and tools?

Thanks,
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post #2 of 529 Old 11-21-2002, 07:57 AM
 
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You can do it.

It's inside the service menu.

There are seperate color decoder controls and parameters for 480P, 1080i and 480i.

That's why your 1080i has more than the others probably.... Hitachi must have dialed it up so it can look blue next to the others running the 1080i demo signals in stores.

Consider and ISF tech to fix it... if you want it done right.

Here is a great link that talks about it from Sound and Vision Magazine:
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...&page_number=1


Here is a good link about calibration

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...&page_number=1


Here is a good link about calibration above

Here's a link to the ISF
http://www.imagingscience.com

http://www.imagingscience.com/i/new_isf2.gif

They can fix your picture and make it much better.

If you want to try it yourself, let me know and I'll help you:D



Now,
--------------------------
For anyone in Western Ma or New England.
BobL does very good work.

He calibrated my Hitachi twice, and He and his partner Rich are great guys too.

He is ISF trained, and has all the equiptment.

You can hit him from the ISF website, or PM him here at AVS:
Here is the link to PM him:D
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post #3 of 529 Old 11-21-2002, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Certainly a more intelligent answer than the Hitachi rep I spoke to earlier. His explanation was that since HDTV is a much stronger signal that the colors will tend to be more exaggertaed and the only work around is to change the user settings when you switch modes. I suppose they will say anything to avoid a potential service call.

How did I get into the service menus? Do I want to know how to get into the service menus.

Once in the menus, what is involved in minimally mucking about to decrease the level of red push on particular input?

At some point I may indeed consider ISF calibration. Right now I still need to decide if I will keep it. Maybe it is just me, but if red push is a known issue with theses sets why aren't they properly calibrated before they leave the factory. One could even argue that if ISF calibration is required to get a decent picture then it should be part of the purchase price. But alas, I digress.

Thanks.
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post #4 of 529 Old 11-21-2002, 03:48 PM
 
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You should read that link I posted about calibraton in Sound and Vision.

It is easy to fix red push, it involves changing a few values with the remote in the service menu.

I'll post how to do it, with a better answer to your question late tonight, I am at work now.

stay tuned
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post #5 of 529 Old 11-21-2002, 08:21 PM
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Amph,

Take a look at this http://63.218.43.67/keohihdtv/brands...rvicemenu.html

Please take a look at my other post on the Hitachi codes before you do anything, though...Thank you very much

Fury
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post #6 of 529 Old 11-22-2002, 04:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Srgtfury
Amph,

Take a look at this http://63.218.43.67/keohihdtv/brands...rvicemenu.html

Please take a look at my other post on the Hitachi codes before you do anything, though...Thank you very much

Fury
This has nothing to do with RED PUSH or even the service menu.

This is the seperate Geometry menu....unrelated.


The real Service Menu can be entered by pressing "input + Power" at the same time upon turn on of the set with the power button on the front.

I usually time it just right...hitting Input a split second before I hit power and holding it breifly.

That will get him into the service menu.
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post #7 of 529 Old 11-22-2002, 05:05 AM
 
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post #8 of 529 Old 11-22-2002, 05:30 AM
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I have a 51SWX20B. Would these service menu values be the same as with the 57SWX20B? I would like to try it.

I want to get the set calibrated, but the local ISF guy want $500 to do it. seems a little pricey.

Thanks
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post #9 of 529 Old 11-22-2002, 05:45 AM
 
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ISF is worth the cost ($500) if done by a real calibrator.

Who was the guy?

Yes the service menu values would be the same
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post #10 of 529 Old 11-22-2002, 08:19 AM
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Hi Mike,

Thanks for the clarification and link to that thread on HT Forum. Looks like the Hitachiu's can be red push corrected for the different source material.

Any idea why there is a tendency to red push certain sources by manufacturers? Seems like blue would be more likely-seen plenty like that. The Red is just so unnatural and obvious-so as to tine the black screen crimson even...

Thank you very much

fury
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post #11 of 529 Old 11-22-2002, 10:52 AM
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Greetings

Red Push is implemented as a response to very blue grayscales which sell TV's.

Blue grayscales make flesh tones pale out ...

Red push restores the flesh tones ...

Like lies to cover up lies.

End result ... blue grayscale ... everything looks wrong, but red push it and only people look right. Sell TV set.

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post #12 of 529 Old 11-22-2002, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Mike,

I will carefully read through all of the material and give it a shot before the weekend is out. Based on other posts, it sounds like it will be evident in the menus in terms of which input I am adjusting for. I will start with the crappy built in HDTV tuner since that is where the reds are most extreme.

Thanks Again. If only Hitachi service were half as knowledgeable and helpful!
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post #13 of 529 Old 11-22-2002, 12:36 PM
 
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We are here for help
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post #14 of 529 Old 11-22-2002, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello Again,

Have not pulled up the svc menus yet but am just now reading through all of the info.

I suppose I expected that there would be a setting for each color CRT, with unique settings for the various input modes. Instead, I see that there are 4 parameters (RY, R/B, GY, and G/B).

Mostly just to improve my understanding of the world, what do these abbreviations stand for and what do they each represents (red, green, blue and ???)

Thanks Again.
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post #15 of 529 Old 11-22-2002, 01:23 PM
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The guys name is Jim Dolittle. He is the Boston area. In talking with him, he told me he has never done a Hitachi sets before but his friend just came back from the factory training and he said he would give him all the tools necessary to do it.

But in reading the boards, it looks like you should be able to get it done for $250 to $300

Not sure what to do
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post #16 of 529 Old 11-22-2002, 01:30 PM
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Greetings

For a basic ISF oil change variety calibration ... the SRP is $275 for an RPTV.

Oil change ... not full tune up service. Full tune up service has always been between $400 to $600 depending on the calibrator and what the client wants done.

No one of any consequence performs tune up service at the oil change price point.

Just make sure if you opt for full tune up service that you get it ... some like to say they offer the full meal deal, but only deliver oil change service ... for the full meal deal pricing.

Sometimes ... one actually ends up paying more for similar servicing because they want one of the people with the best reputations to work on their sets.

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post #17 of 529 Old 11-22-2002, 01:31 PM
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Greetings

The R's are for red and the g's are for green.

If using filters ... red filter stuff and green filter stuff. It becomes self evident once you start to change things.

Regards

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post #18 of 529 Old 11-22-2002, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, I admit I am proceeding with extreme caution with the service menus.

I did get ino the top level XWX menus by pushing Slect-Power. This shows me a list of things like

Service
SUb Bright
White Balane
G Drive (High) 3B
R Drive (High) 2C
R CUtoff (High) 7F
G Cutoff (High) 7F
B CUtoff (High) 76

H Position 3F
V Position 3F
Fact Reste

There is also a seperate ISF Adjust Mode and some other menus.

Where do I navigate from here? I did not see the list of settings descirbed?

I did call an ISF today. They said that for approx $300 they adjust convergence and white levels, etc. I asked if they address red push. He said, no but if there are some settings we could see, we like to do only minimal essential tweaks.

Thanks.
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post #19 of 529 Old 11-22-2002, 07:15 PM
 
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Any real ISF type should be able to adjust your color decoder to perfection.

If not, then thier not worth it.

I would just do it yourself and learn how so you know it get's done right, that's how I am.
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post #20 of 529 Old 11-22-2002, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, I am inclined to attempt things myself at least initially.

Any idea on the navigation of menus to get to the RY, GB, etc listing?

I did play around and get to things like RY-PHG these are generally set to 00. I guess I am not totally clear yet on which specific settings to muck with.

Thanks.
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post #21 of 529 Old 11-22-2002, 08:03 PM
 
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Yes.

Enter the ISF mode...

then you'll see this:
ISF Mode Settings

RGBOUT0
SUB-BRT
G-DRV-H
G-DRV-M
G-DRV-S
R-DRV-H
R-DRV-M
R-DRV-S
R-CUT-H
R-CUT-M
R-CUT-S
G-CUT-H
G-CUT-M
G-CUT-S
B-CUT-H
B-CUT-M
B-CUT-S
SUBCNT0
COLOR-4
COLOR-F
COLOR-G
TINT-4
TINT-F
TINT-G
SHARP-4
SHARP-A
SHARP-B
SHARP-9
SHARP-E
RY-PH-4
RY-PH-F
RY-PH-G
R/B-GA4
R/B-GAF
R/B-GAG
GY-PH-4
GY-PH-F
GY-PH-G
G/B-GA4
G/B-GAF
G/B-GAG
DC-PNT0
DC-RET0
DC-LMT0
DABLPN0
DABLGA0
H-POSI
H-POSIH
H-POSID
APRTR-4
APRTR-A
APRTR-C
APRTR-E
CLT-4
CLT-A
CLT-C
CLT-E
SRT-TR4
SRT-TRA
SRT-TRC
SRT-TRE
SRT-FQ4
SRT-FQA
SRT-FQC
SRT-FQE
VSM-PH4
VSM-PHA
VSM-PHC
VSM-PHE
VSMGA4
VSMGAA
VSMGAC
VSMGAE
VSMGAM4
VSMGAMA
VSMGAMC
VSMGAME
CDE-4
CDE-A
CDE-C
CDE-E
CLPPHS0
HBPPH10
HBPPH20
DCUBRT0
DCUCNT0
OSDACL0
OSDBRT0
OSDCNT0
DCRRSW0
COLORG0
YCGA-0
BSP-0
APL/BS0
BLC-0
BDL-0
BS-ARE0
SRTGA-0
WPL-LE0
ABL-PN0
ABL-GA0
TYNCG10
DYNCG20
STATG10
STATG20
YOUTG-0
Y-DTL-0
WP-PNT0
WP-GA-0
HI-VRT0
WPS-0
BLS-0
G-STR-0
BSTRG-0
BSTRP-0
BSCHR10
BSCHR20
SCT-SW0
BBE-LO
BBE-HI
AGC
SURR
OSD-HP
OSD-VP
OSDCL12
OSDCL3
SMPLING
POLLING
START
TIMEOUT
STATUS
WAIT
REPEAT
HFRQ-N
SUBBRTH
M-CONT-H
M-CLR-H
S-CONT-H
S-CLR-H
INPUT1
INPUT2
SYNCDET
F-STD
H-STD
NOISE
DYGA
DCGA
VAPGA
VAPIN
YHCOR
HSYNC-M
VSYNC-M
CSYNC-M
HSYNC-S
VSYNC-S
CSYNC-S
M-CONT1
M-CONT3
M-CONTD
M-COR-1
M-COR-3
M-COR-D
MTINT-1
MTINT-3
MTINT-D
MTOFF00
MTOFQ-0
S-CONT2
S-CONT3
S-CONTD
S-CLR-2
S-CLR-3
S-CLR-D
STINT-2
STINT-3
STINT-D
STOFF00
STOFQ-0
Y-DL1-4
Y-DL1-D
Y-DL2-0
YBLACK4
YBLACKD
BBLACK4
BBLACKD
RBLACK4
RBLACKD
AFCRAN4
AFCRAND
F-DET4
HSEPL-4
HSEPL-5
HSEPL-6
HSEPL-C
VSEPL-4
VSEPL-5
VSEPL-6
VSEPL-C
DSEPL-A
DSEPL-C
AFCMD-L
AFCMD-3
AFCMD-D
VMODE-4
VMODE-5
48ISEP4
BANDW-4
BANDW-5
HDPOSI4
HDPOSI5
HDPOSI6
HDPOSI7
HDPOSIK

RY's R/B's -
GY's G/B's - are what you want

Do not use the AVIA color decoder check to adjust the color decoder. This screen is only meant for measuring and not for adjusting.

It appears that the (4) settings are for 480i signals the (F) for 480p signals and the (G) is for the 1080i signals.

Use the AVIA flashing color bars and with the appropriate filter. First select the blue bars and adjust the color and tint. Then select the red bars and adjust the R/Y and R/B controls. Then select the green bars and adjust the G/Y and G/B controls. Then start at the top again. After you complete the above process about 3 times you should have the chroma portion of your set nailed.
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post #22 of 529 Old 11-24-2002, 05:45 AM
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Mike, I just wanted to thank you so much for your information in the previous post. Your explanation was excellent, and after carefully jotting down the original settings, and making the adjustments you mentioned with AVIA, my color is excellent!

I do have one quick question: For 1080i color settings in the ISF Service Menu, how does one use the AVIA test patterns for adjustments, since they will only be shown in 480i/480p?

Since I made my adjustments using the AVIA test patterns in 480p, I made my red and green color adjustments using only the (F) settings. As you mentioned, the (G) settings will be for 1080i, so after nailing the adjustments in to the (F) settings, should I simply carry over the same color settings to the (G) settings as well?

Once again, thank you for your help...now if I could only nail getting into the Service Menu itself....takes me a good 15 tries or so each time.
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post #23 of 529 Old 11-24-2002, 05:54 AM
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Hi Mikes,

The 1080i and/or the AntC input-red push is the crux of the problem on many of the posters' sets. The red push on other sources seems to be less of a problem. Certainly on my xwx65, the red push on AntC's input is WAY off. I son't know how this set handles sources and how the calibration parameters should be adjusted, however. I do note the same apparent level of red push on anu ant source resolution-520p, 720p and 1080i all look as pushed, for example. Toggling 108i on STB via Svideo input doesn't exhibit the same level of red push in either case.

I have heard that someone has an HDTV 1080i test signal generator through an HTPC video card. Anyone aware of that? I have Clorfacts on order and would really like to get that capability without trying to hunt down a Sencor piece.

Thank you very much

Fury
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post #24 of 529 Old 11-24-2002, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mfusick
RY's R/B's -
GY's G/B's - are what you want

Use the AVIA flashing color bars and with the appropriate filter. First select the blue bars and adjust the color and tint. Then select the red bars and adjust the R/Y and R/B controls. Then select the green bars and adjust the G/Y and G/B controls. Then start at the top again. After you complete the above process about 3 times you should have the chroma portion of your set nailed.
Which one is for color - "/Y" or "/B"?
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post #25 of 529 Old 11-24-2002, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Which one is for color - "/Y" or "/B"?
Both. That's why Mike suggested cycling through the adjustments 3 separate times, because one tweak will effect the other.
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post #26 of 529 Old 11-24-2002, 04:31 PM
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Normally, with software like Avia, you would adjust color and tint separately via color and tint controls. One may affect the other so you cycle thru them a few times. OK, got that.

In this thread, when doing say, red, which control is for color and which is for tint? It's still not clear when you say "both". Aren't there separate service menu ISF controls for the red-color and the red-tint, as well as green-color and green-tint?
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post #27 of 529 Old 11-24-2002, 07:31 PM
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I got this info from another forum. Somebody correct me if it's wrong.


RY-PH-4 [Hue]
RY-PH-F
RY-PH-G

R/B-GA4 [Saturation]
R/B-GAF
R/B-GAG

GY-PH-4 [Hue]
GY-PH-F
GY-PH-G

G/B-GA4 [Saturation]
G/B-GAF
G/B-GAG
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post #28 of 529 Old 11-24-2002, 07:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Inaka,

While I realize each set is unique, I am curious. What were your before and after settings?

Thanks.
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post #29 of 529 Old 11-24-2002, 08:21 PM
 
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This is a great thread. Should archive this puppy.

Anyone who plays or learns more, please post so a wealth of knowledge on this tweak can be accumulated for others, since this is a worthwhile tweak.
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post #30 of 529 Old 11-24-2002, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
While I realize each set is unique, I am curious. What were your before and after settings?
Hi, I'll be happy to post my before/after settings. Remember, I only tweaked the (F) settings because I was using the AVIA disc with the Panasonic RP82 in 480p, Progressive on. Here's the before/after I got, and just for reference, I have the TWX20B, and these are just the settings on my set, your mileage may vary:

Original Settings (red push way off)
RY-PH-4 00
RY-PH-F 00
RY-PH-G 00

R/B-GA4 0C
R/B-GAF 0C
R/B-GAG 08

GY-PH-4 02
GY-PH-F 02
GY-PH-G 03

G/B-GA4 00
G/B-GAF 00
G/B-GAG 00

New Settings (after adjusting with AVIA; Color is great)
RY-PH-4 00
RY-PH-F 02
RY-PH-G 00

R/B-GA4 0C
R/B-GAF 03
R/B-GAG 08

GY-PH-4 02
GY-PH-F 01
GY-PH-G 03

G/B-GA4 00
G/B-GAF 04
G/B-GAG 00


I then took the progressive mode OFF on the Panny RP82, and re-checked the AVIA color patterns in interlaced mode (480i), and the color seemed dead on, even though I never made any adjustments to the (4) settings.

Color now looks like it's supposed to. Fantastic. The only red push I'm getting now is in the Prom scene in Carrie. :D

I'm still wondering, how will we get those AVIA color test patterns to appear in 1080i? Or will we need to?

If I see red push in 1080i, will these adjustments to one mode, in this case, the (F) settings, just need to be carried over for the 1080i (G) settings?

I'm trying to think of a way to get the AVIA color test patterns in 1080i. Is there some strange Picture in Picture trick we can use to show the color settings in the small window, and have 1080i in the main window? I know it's unlikely, but I'm trying to think of anything to verify my 1080i colors. Or maybe feed the patterns through an HDTV decoder box. I have a Sony HD200 on the way within a week, so I'll be happy to test anything out.
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