Samsung DLP -N- series tweaks thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #451 of 1754 Old 11-20-2003, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by vravo
Steve O
Why turn the DNIe off i thought that was to make a clearer picture??? The one thing i think i did notice was before i got Digtal cable hooked up a few days a go, i could swear that the regular standard cable right out of the wall looked clearer then now when it goes the Digtal HD reciever.... The HD part looks great to me though... most likely football, but that is not the best showing unless it is in broadcasted HD in my opinion...


I think it looks best with it on but you can judge for yourself. It has a DNIe test where you can see side by side how it looks.

As for analog through the box or not, I originally thought the same thing and actually it's easier for football if you run it through ANT anyway. That way you can watch a couple games at once side by side. That should impress your friends. I figured out my 43" set when in PIP side by side it showed two 22" screens and even in analog they look pretty nice when shrunk down to that size. That's pretty impressive to show off to your buddies.

As far as picture clarity, if it's a strong signal you'll probably get a better picture through the digital box. But play around with it and find out. If you have HD use those channels even if there is no HD programming at that moment. For example if a game is on a major network but not on HD (like say OSU/MI) go to the ABC HD channel. Even though it might not be broadcast in HD, the digital feed will be much better than the analog feed. It really does make a big difference. Ditto for NFL games not broadcast in HD on Sundays.

I find that analog is not wonderful but very watchable on the DLP especially when you consider how much you're blowing up the picture. Analog feeds really weren't meant to be blown up to big screens. Be sure to crank down the color (to about 30) and the contrast (maybe 70). I prefer warm 1 or warm 2 on analog.

Enjoy. I know I am.
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post #452 of 1754 Old 11-21-2003, 09:59 AM
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For those that care I've recently calibrated by HLM437 using Colorfacts. Results here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...94#post2954094
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post #453 of 1754 Old 11-21-2003, 11:50 AM
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I bought a Sammy HLN5065 from Sears about 3 weeks ago. Price match is a great thing. I am technically OK but not a video expert. I love this TV, it is my first large screen.

I do have some issues that I would like to ask for some help with.

I am using local cable, Charter Communications with no HD yet. I have a Motorola Cable Box. I am getting the best picture from the composite outputs. The RF output has some background audio noise and the S video has visible moving lines. I have tried multiple cables and different S-video inputs. I don't know the correct term but it is the scan lines or sync lines you see when you see a TV monitor on a TV. My question is it a bad cable box or am I missing something.

Also, using cable, I see a huge difference between broadcast stations. The greens are the main problem. I have gotten the neon green toned down some by changing the G-Gain to a lower number. I did change my gamma to 0 from the default of 4. The issue is that it only happens on a few channels and then only on some of their video. I have had some faces get a green tint to sections of the face. Of course I have gotten into the SM very cautiously. I waited until the lamp had 100 hours before making any of the changes. I am now at 156 hours.

DVD's from my Progressive Scan Toshiba seem to be very good using Component 1.

Any suggestions?

More HD + More Golf = Retired!
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post #454 of 1754 Old 11-21-2003, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jotter
For those that care I've recently calibrated by HLM437 using Colorfacts. Results here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...94#post2954094

Newbie here...
Thanks I liked looking at the graphs.
Question though, looking at your before graph couldn't you have just brought down the blue to get them all level? Instead of changing the gamma? Have you noticed the dithering and/or banding reduced with the lower gamma?
I have a 507 w/302 and wonder if before you did this is you saw purple lips on people (sometimes) and the NFL Vikings purple colors to be blue. It would seem that those would be symptoms of blue being to strong on mine.

Thanks
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post #455 of 1754 Old 11-21-2003, 01:35 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Michael.Chrisco
Newbie here...
Thanks I liked looking at the graphs.
Question though, looking at your before graph couldn't you have just brought down the blue to get them all level? Instead of changing the gamma? Have you noticed the dithering and/or banding reduced with the lower gamma?
I have a 507 w/302 and wonder if before you did this is you saw purple lips on people (sometimes) and the NFL Vikings purple colors to be blue. It would seem that those would be symptoms of blue being to strong on mine.

Thanks

I think I should post the "before" graphs for the luminance curve as well as the RGB values. The gamma value effects how grey values (and colors) get displayed at different "brightnesses" on a display. A 10IRE grey is really dark, near black, and a 90IRE is nearly white. What you want is a TV which makes these greys appear at the right "level" on a smooth curve. If you look at Gamma 4 it shows a REALLY odd curve - which seems to make the middle colors really "bright" to stand out - perfect for a showroom and what we're normally used to.

Colorfacts gives you an overal luminance value representing what curve best fits what your TV is outputting at various values of grey. 2.2 is a value for NTSC standard. 2.6 (I think) is HDTV (darker overall).

So what you want is a curve which looks like a curve - not really like what gamma 4 produces, which has a luminance value between 2.2 and 2.6. Choosing different gamma values gives you different curves and different values.

Once you have chosen your best curve you then adjust the red, blue and green mix to make sure each "grey" really consists of the right balance of the colors. As you can see from my "before" RGB - the blue was way too high - and red and green weren't that good either. I could have just left my Gamma on 4 and calibrated the colors - which would have produced a better picture anyway - but I also adjusted the gamma curve to give me a more accurate (although some would argue - and are - less attractive) picture.

In essence the two are slightly different things and if I would have liked to try getting the colors right on gamma 4 to see what it looked it - but I was only borrowing the colorfacts unit so ran out of time for that.

One of the problems with all *my* luminance histograms is that if you look at the lower IREs (the dark greys) the curve is below the line - this means that shadows will be overly dark whereas the other grey levels are spot on - meaning they will be presented correctly.

Oh, also you can't really just "turn down" blue independently as adjusting one color actually effects them all. Turning down blue would cause red to rise almost proportionally (and green to go up a little too). Turning green up reduces both red and blue. Its a balancing procedure which is why you really need some type of external unit to measure whats actually being put out and to see what adjusting one color is actually doing.

Hope that helps a little - and I'm sure people with more knowledge will correct me where I'm wrong.

Jonathan
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post #456 of 1754 Old 11-21-2003, 01:51 PM
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Thanks, just shows I need to have someone else that knows this stuff and has the right equipment do this.
It is nice to slightly understand it too.
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post #457 of 1754 Old 11-21-2003, 06:56 PM
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just purchased a hln4365 from sears only had it two days ... built sept 03 have not been in the sm yet..will wait until my dvi cable for htpc is here..first impressions noise level very low can not hear unless sound level is all the way down and standing very close(less than 2 feet) from set..pc connect with db15 (waiting for dvi cable) xp home fx5200 w/52.16 using 1280/720 rez. tv wide almost no overscan..pc wide approx 1inch black bars around desktop.. and text a little less clear but still very good.. have not made any coarse or fine adjustments because I am using tv wide .....games and programs I have work except civ III and swat 3 can not get them to run 1280/720 but have not played with the setting yet.. the greens seem to be a little bright on the pc input and the sm adjustments will be made per the rec. on this thread... the std.cable pq is so much better than i had hoped for after reading post...dvd and hd content thru pc/db15 is outstanding.. with only 10-15 hour viewing pq very good ,slight green push ,but no other issues (I may have seen 1 rainbow) Rick
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post #458 of 1754 Old 11-21-2003, 08:37 PM
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Im the owner of 437w for 2 months, it's calibrated by ISF tech. got my samsung t160 today, very disappointed with SD channels, i am using dvi packed with t160. my old hughes e86 is much better. HD channel is good though. does any one using t10 with sammy dlp? i would like to hear your opinions. I have it set on 720p out like everyone says. i get very noisy picture on SD channels. am i missing something here..
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post #459 of 1754 Old 11-22-2003, 06:03 PM
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hp96,
I have a 507 w/302 and moving sharpness way down to 10 made a difference on SD for me.
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post #460 of 1754 Old 11-24-2003, 02:22 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by vravo
Steve O
The one thing i think i did notice was before i got Digtal cable hooked up a few days a go, i could swear that the regular standard cable right out of the wall looked clearer then now when it goes the Digtal HD reciever.... The HD part looks great to me though.... i'm going to disconnect it and see if my mind is playing tricks on me...


It's not playing tricks on you. Comcast sends broadcast analog over the same cable requiring your dandy new Moto-whatever (I've got the same one) to digest it and then try to display it via 480p or whatever you've got yours set to.

I think it's a royal pain in the ass and I'm going to try to set up a decent antenna to get OTA HDTV... I'm tired of switching back-and-forth between Comcast's BOX (comp 3) and the cable coming straight out of the wall. soon my Samsung sir-351t will have a DVI connection and we'll see if I can get the signals out of Seattle.

there are only 10 kinds of people in the world... those who understand binary, and those who don't.
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post #461 of 1754 Old 11-24-2003, 06:59 PM
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I purchased a Samsung HLN617W last Monday and spent all last week reading the forum about the pros and cons, service menu, tweaks, etc. It arrived this past Saturday at 4:30. At 5:00 we were watching DVDs via the Samsung DVD w/DVI output.

Out of the box, with no changes to any settings, the picture was and still is fantastic. We started with "Finding Nemo" and then put the kids to bed and watched "The Matrix". Even my wife, who is not exactly what I would call a "videophile" was impressed.

I appreciate reading all the comments from those who truly are into tweaking, and I expect at some point in time, I will do some tweaking, simply because it's my nature. However, for anyone contemplating this purchase, I would not let the 24+ pages of pros and cons scare you off. This is one INCREDIBLE television.

Robert
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post #462 of 1754 Old 11-24-2003, 07:52 PM
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Alas, I too fell for the lure of the magical Sammy, except it is a 50" HLN 5065W. I made some minor tweeks to the user settings, and so far, 3 days, I have been really pleased with the set. We took advantage of 24 months no interest financing at BB, plus a little discount. It is really great because it is so easy to move compared to our old RPTV.

Those looking for a stand: try a Scandanavian import furniture store. We found a teak desk, on casters, 48" by 24", with a small shelf underneath, that is only 26" high, with the wheels. I can take off the wheels, cut down the sides if necessary, to make it lower, and it looks great.

We saw three sets at 3 stores and still liked the picture.

Jeff

J. S.
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post #463 of 1754 Old 11-27-2003, 02:03 PM
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jeff, check out ebay for a Bell'o plasma stand. i got mine for $150 includes shipping. its sold for $249 at BB. It looks beautiful with sammy on it
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post #464 of 1754 Old 11-30-2003, 12:19 PM
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I've had my HLN507W for 7 months now and have been satisfied with it OOTB until now. Never entered SM.

Our local Cox just released the SA3250HD boxes for this area which I installed using component 3
Although the HD channels looked great, I later realized the SD shadow detail is now non existant. Antenna imput restores shadow detail sightly but the image is still overall DARK. I now have the Contrast at 100 and the Brightness at 80 in order to get the shadow detail. But of course the blacks are now compromised.

My questions:
1. Is the bulb on its way out? If so, is there a way to check brightness or usage in the SM?

2. Do these SA 3250HD boxes routinely clip the shadow details?

My instinct is the bulb has become dimmer and the new box has added to the mix. Component 3 might need to be adjusted in the SM.

Thanks for any response.

kam
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post #465 of 1754 Old 12-01-2003, 02:09 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by kamshaft
I've had my HLN507W for 7 months now and have been satisfied with it OOTB until now. Never entered SM.

Our local Cox just released the SA3250HD boxes for this area which I installed using component 3
Although the HD channels looked great, I later realized the SD shadow detail is now non existant. Antenna imput restores shadow detail sightly but the image is still overall DARK. I now have the Contrast at 100 and the Brightness at 80 in order to get the shadow detail. But of course the blacks are now compromised.

Thanks for any response.

kam

First of all, I don't think shadow detail is one of this sets strong points but let's talk about your problem. If it is dark on ANT (no cable box) then the box is not to blame. Is DVD fine? If HD, DVD and digital stations are fine, I tend to think you've got typical weak analog reception. If Cox checked your signal and it is OK then step in line for those of us that feel analog is only "watchable" on an HD set
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post #466 of 1754 Old 12-04-2003, 03:19 PM
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Bought an HLN5065 about 45 days ago (so the BB return policy time period has expired)

I've done all the tweaks recommended in this forum and yet there are still two (design-flaw) problems that are driving me crazy:

1. Poor shadow-detail -- washed-out, muddy low-light level scenes regardless of whether the source is HDTV, SDTV, or DVD

2. Internal Reflections (like "camera-shooting-into-sun" lens flare) that put ghostly light-whisps on the screen opposite bright areas in low-to-mid- light-level scenes.

My understanding that both of these issues are inherent to the design of the Samsung DLP system, and not something that you can tweak out.

If true, this is unacceptable in a $4000 product.

So....

(a) any fixes?
(b) has anyone spoken to a real person at Samsung and gotten a satisfactory answer to either of these two problems
(c) if "yes" to above, please PM me their name & phone number

-- I don't really want to get into the dial 1-800-SAMSUNG customer service queue and be frustrated by a $10/hour CSR who can't fix the problem and can't/won't escalate to someone who can.

Since these issues have been discussed on a number of occasions in these Forums, there must a bunch of Sammy owners experiencing this problem.
I would assume that we owners would like to get it resolved, or perhaps register some sort of class-action complaint with the folks at Samsung.

craig@sharrow.com
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post #467 of 1754 Old 12-04-2003, 03:41 PM
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I had problems with my HLM 61 - they were unable to get anyone near me to come and service it.

Finally they replaced it with HLN for FREE.

And this week came and installed the upgrade -

Just stay onto them and ask for their Digital Department CSR's

Good Luck

Geoffrey

PS Don't tell them you've been tweakin it - I'm sure you know that
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post #468 of 1754 Old 12-04-2003, 10:39 PM
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This boggles the mind when did everyone decide the internet was the BEST and ONLY resource for customer service? I mean there is GREAT info here on AVS, but there is also plenty that is just plain wrong Customer service isn't the wasteland so many pessimists around here seem to think it is and often it's the right place to be going for some issues.
Quote:


Originally posted by CraigSharrow
Bought an HLN5065 about 45 days ago (so the BB return policy time period has expired)

Have you tried? Counting the number of times I've had a reputable company like BB honor a return or warranty outside the stated date range would take at least all of my fingers and many of my toes

Quote:



1. Poor shadow-detail -- washed-out, muddy low-light level scenes regardless of whether the source is HDTV, SDTV, or DVD

Many people have tweaked their displays and improved/resolved this issue. Like virtually every display out there is needs to be properly calibrated. i.e. adjust gamma, brightness, contrast, and probably also the RGB Gains/Cuts. This is often best accomplished by professional calibrator if you really want it done right. Again this is a problem with nearly every commercially available display not just the HLN's

Quote:



2. Internal Reflections (like "camera-shooting-into-sun" lens flare) that put ghostly light-whisps on the screen opposite bright areas in low-to-mid- light-level scenes.

I don't see internal reflection on my 56 unless I'm off-axis and within 5 feet of the screen. Having read the major threads on this I'd say that MOST people don't have internal reflection issues. If you really do have IR issues from a normal viewing ANGLE and DISTANCE complain to Samsung! You might get a new set


Quote:



(b) has anyone spoken to a real person at Samsung and gotten a satisfactory answer to either of these two problems
(c) if "yes" to above, please PM me their name & phone number

-- I don't really want to get into the dial 1-800-SAMSUNG customer service queue and be frustrated by a $10/hour CSR who can't fix the problem and can't/won't escalate to someone who can.

really call.. then complain complaining before you even call is contemptible
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post #469 of 1754 Old 12-05-2003, 05:57 AM
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I agree... you need to call and make sure you have all of the info you can. Also, if you don't like the answer... call back!

Also, it sounds like your TV needs to be professionally calibrated. I think that would make a world of difference for you. As to the reflection problem, Samsung has just come out with a new replacement lens, E10. You can call a local service center and order it (under warranty).
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post #470 of 1754 Old 12-05-2003, 06:20 AM
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I have had my Sammy 507 since October 16th. I had the problem with shadows but as the set has aged they have gone away. I still see a little but that may be just me because nobody else sees it. I think the light has to burn in (this has been mentioned before) before you get the best color/brightness/contrast.

As for the reflection issue, the only time I have ever seen it was when I sat too low. i.e. sitting on the floor and looking up at the tv or having the tv on a high stand. Once I moved myself to a normal viewing angle it completely goes away. Maybe you are sitting too low and should raise your seat or lower the tv. I know this sounds kind of funky for a $4000 set but you have to remember this isn't a direct view tv but a projection tv. That means there are certain limitations to it.

I hope this helps.
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post #471 of 1754 Old 12-05-2003, 06:59 AM
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On the off-axis / internal reflection issue... DLP's are defiantly poor off-axis up/down so it's critical to locate the display at the correct elevation. I'd point out however that the DLP's are much better off-axis left/right than CRT RP's.

Has anyone with the IR problem commented as to the viewing angle they are seeing IR at? up/down left/right? I don't recall seeing this in any of the IR posts.
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post #472 of 1754 Old 12-05-2003, 07:23 AM
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2. Internal Reflections (like "camera-shooting-into-sun" lens flare) that put ghostly light-whisps on the screen opposite bright areas in low-to-mid- light-level scenes.


I noticed this too, but determined I had my brightness/contrast set incorrectly. If you use a DVD like Digital Video Essentials it will help you set these so you will not have this problem. Many of the out of the box settings are set so the TV will look good in a showroom. In your house you have much more control over the lighting and need to adjust the settings down in most cases.

-Rob
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post #473 of 1754 Old 12-05-2003, 07:44 AM
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I purchased a HLN507w (fw306) exactly one week ago. Should I wait for the lamp to break in before trying to calibrate? I was able to improve things to my eye using the UM, but would like to truly calibrate the set. Also, having never done anything like this before, should I look into professional calibration or is it reasonably easy to do using DVE?

ÂI hate television. I hate it as much as peanuts. But I can't stop eating peanuts. -Orson Welles
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post #474 of 1754 Old 12-05-2003, 08:18 AM
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You can calibrate now, but you you'll want the check and possible recalibrate again in a month.

To calibrate this display correctly you really need professional hardware to set gray scale, RGB gain/cut.

IMHO, DVE does nothing new vs. VE and Avia, and is only "good" for setting brightness/contrast. Frankly I think Avia was better for adjusting color/tint.

Check out three GREAT threads on calibrating:
Samsung v302 colorfacts calibration results
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=328421

How to use calibration disks' test patterns
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=318977

Gama O is not the way to go on Sammy DLP (long post)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=316560

although I'd personally say Gamma 0 is the way to go IF you're actually calibrating EVERYTHING else...
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post #475 of 1754 Old 12-05-2003, 08:24 AM
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So if I don't have pro hardware, I should get a professional calibration? I can rent DVE from my local video store. Are you saying it wll only help me with the UM, not the SM tweaks?

Also, I've checked out other threads, but it doesn't seem like any calibration recommendations have surfaced for the the 306 fw yet.

ÂI hate television. I hate it as much as peanuts. But I can't stop eating peanuts. -Orson Welles
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post #476 of 1754 Old 12-06-2003, 12:04 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by jb510 complaining before you even call is contemptible [/b]

Based on my often-less-than-satisfactory-experience with a number of technology software, hardware and service vendors -- particularly their first tier customer service reps (who had a knowledge level which made it appear that they had been selling shoes the day before I called)-- and having read other people's "CHALLENGES" in dealing with SAMSUNG PRODUCT PROBLEMS -- I don't think my asking whether there was any SUCCESSFUL problem resolution and whether other Sammy owners were as frustrated as I am was out of line.

By the way, the reply I got to my correspondence with Samsung was an email stating, in total:

"For better assistance please call our Customer Care Center at 1-800-SAMSUNG between 9:00 am to 9:00 pm EST Monday to Friday and one of our representatives will help you"

The above was not the first "we've received your correspondence and this is an automatic reply", rather this was the reply received once they'd assigned a case number to my complaint. In other words, they said, "now get into the queue and stand there for a while."
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post #477 of 1754 Old 12-06-2003, 01:39 PM
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As one who has the DVE and tried to tweak my HLN467, I would suggest you go the professional route if you're unhappy with your set's PQ. IMHO unless you know what you're doing the DVD won't help you with the SM and the adjustments for the UM are very limited. Doing the tweaking is not for the novice TV watcher.

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post #478 of 1754 Old 12-09-2003, 06:36 AM
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I accidentally changed the setting in the DNle menu for PROC SET. It was at 102. After changing it, I could only go back and change it to either 230 or 255. (230 seems to disable the DNle function- 255, DNle is on)
Does anyone know how to change this setting or in fact does it matter?

Thanks
Rob
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post #479 of 1754 Old 12-09-2003, 07:26 PM
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Well, it has been almost 30 days since I got my Samsung 61 DLP and to follow up from my first posts several weeks ago, I am in the final stages of having to decide whether to keep this set or not. Aside from some of the previous complaints I have had with the set, I have come to live with the Mosquito like graininess that appears when looking at the set up close but I do have 2 issues that are of major concern to me. The banding that occurs through the color transitions and the extreme lack of detail in dark scenes. The later one has become more and more of an issue as I just cannot seem to get any detail in dark scenes. While the blacks are black that is basically it, all dark scenes are black with no definition whatsoever. Now, I do not know if LCD's or plasma's have the same problem I just do not recall observing this with my previous CRT projection TV. Last week I went back to the store I purchased this set from to look at the Sony GW's to see if I might want to switch, and while all sets look great at the store, I am having a hard time deciding whether I would be switching from bad to worse. Again, I suspect my expectations where very high after spending $4K+ and maybe the LCD's and plasma's are not going to be any better. I did look at the Sony GW forum and did not find anywhere near the amount of complaints or tweackings from the Sony owners as I have seen in this forum with users going into setup menus, gama correction and so forth. When I purchase a TV for that kind of money I expect it to be up and running out of the box and should not expect to have to go through all that calibration or other tweakings that everyone else seems to do. So I guess my question is, has any DLP owners had any experience with any of the Sony GW's between 50 and 70' and have they switched to the Samsung DLP's and why or vice versa? Obviously I would prefer not to go through all the hassles or returning my set, so any comparisons to help me decide would be appreciated. Another option I am also considering is just giving up on the sleek smallers DLP's/LCD's and just go for a strait CRT projection TV.
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post #480 of 1754 Old 12-10-2003, 03:15 AM
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Lets face it... mpeg is compression. Dithering is an inherent artifact (tradeoff) in mpeg compression.
IMO, LCD has the same problem as DLP with blacks... only the LCD's blacks are gray. If you think you have mosquito graininess on DLP, you have a screen door on the LCD's that in my opinion are worse.
I have a Pioneer plasma at work and I am not impressed. There are what I would describe as dithering artifacts in the pictures and the left/right edges of the screen are discolored where the 4:3 picture normally ends. I call it burn-in, but others would argue the point. Whatever you call it, it doesn't go away and it's not what I would want to see on my $5k plasma screen.
I think part of the reason there is so much discussion about the Sammys is because they are more tweak-able.
If you want CRT quality (and baggage), go with a Pioneer Elite for what will probably be less money. You can also investigate LCOS for more money... or wait for the next great technology to be deployed.
One thing I do know is that after you have lived with HD for a month, you won't ever be happy with a SD picture again.
I looked for 6 months for a HD set only to discover there is no perfect large-form display hardware available yet. I compromised with the Sammy. If you are not willing to compromise, I suggest you hold off on any new purchase.
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