Samsung DLP -N- series tweaks thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 1751 Old 03-03-2004, 12:02 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by k2ue

All setting are as received except:
Gamma 0
R gain 121
G gain 106
B gain 92
R offset 123
G offset 129
B offset 132

I tried your settings on my HLN437W with 302 firmware to see how it would compare to what I have now...

With Normal or Warm 1, there is still a bluish tint, but it looks to be pretty accurate when using the Warm 2 setting.

-Jeff
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post #632 of 1751 Old 03-03-2004, 03:37 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by acnownzu
I tried your settings on my HLN437W with 302 firmware to see how it would compare to what I have now...

With Normal or Warm 1, there is still a bluish tint, but it looks to be pretty accurate when using the Warm 2 setting.

There must be a significant scaling difference in 302 vs. 309 firmware -- the values I posted are used with Normal, and could not be called even remotely Blueish at that setting. So only 309 folks should consider those values applicable.

This would explain the poor results I saw when using values posted for 302's!

Clyde Washburn
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post #633 of 1751 Old 03-03-2004, 06:15 AM
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I would second the view that firmware tweaks only work for that firmware. Someone posted 302 tweaks and I tried them on my 309 and boy did it look like crap I was pushing yellow, green...

The differences must be huge between the boards.. I am going to try your tweaks when I get home tonight and tell you what they do for me

Thanks for posting your work. Many of us really appreciate it as we don't have access to the equipment you do.

Mike
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post #634 of 1751 Old 03-03-2004, 06:55 AM
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I also failed to mention that since tint and temp is hanging in pretty close over the whole range there seems to be no downside to using the Dynamic operating setting, rather than Normal or Movie, which reduce peak white intensity -- unless of course your roomis always dark and Dynamic is objectionably bright. You are going to lose some peak white level by dumping Blue and Green energy at the top end, so Dynamic is not as bright as it was out of the box -- even on Warm2 full white skewed to Blue originally.

Clyde Washburn
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post #635 of 1751 Old 03-03-2004, 07:33 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by k2ue
There appear to be four sensors in the probe. Your comment on applying a CRT-designed sensor to a filtered system is of course conceptually correct, but if there is any skew due to spectral content that produces unequal effects on x and y there will be a tint visible when white is expected, since that is the most sensitive direction visually; if the skew affects both and there is no noticeable tint then only a temperature error could occur, which for home entertainment purposes can be visually cross checked against a calibrated monitor -- which I have done. I would not claim the results to be absolutely accurate in temperature, but I think I have a valid conclusion on the best fit that the the Samsung processing algorithm allows -- a hump in temp on the white (x slope = y slope) axis, rather than a horseshoe or S-curve that stays closer to 6500, but displaces in more visually sensitive directions when it errs.

Sounds like you've thought it out pretty well since you've effectively used the calibrated monitor as a color comparator.
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post #636 of 1751 Old 03-03-2004, 08:05 PM
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sorry to jump in on folks who know a lot more than me BUT my heads spinning over this purchase...and I want to get it done....tell me this: is the only sensible thing to do to wait on the "1" series (looking at HLN437W)? ....and having a HDcable box and a DVD w/DVI do I need 2 DVI connections and does this unit have them? If someone can help me I'll get off.
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post #637 of 1751 Old 03-03-2004, 11:14 PM
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If you are going to purchase a DLP, I would definitely try to get a W1, as many stores already have a few in stock. You'll just need to have them check their stock and look for "W1" on the label.

If you want to connect 2 DVI devices, you can buy a DVI switch. Gefen's 2x1 DVI switch is about $250 and seems pretty popular among AVS users.

I'm waiting for the next batch of DVD players w/ DVI to be released, as they will be better than what's currently available.

-Jeff
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post #638 of 1751 Old 03-04-2004, 09:28 AM
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k2ue,

What were your user settings with these SM changes?
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post #639 of 1751 Old 03-04-2004, 09:48 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by smartbomb
k2ue, What were your user settings with these SM changes?

Dynamic (no changes) and Normal Color.

Clyde Washburn
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post #640 of 1751 Old 03-04-2004, 11:03 AM
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Clyde,

I forgot to ask you -- which inputs are these SM settings for?
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post #641 of 1751 Old 03-04-2004, 12:03 PM
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What is the significance of the "W1"?
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post #642 of 1751 Old 03-04-2004, 12:15 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by smartbomb
Clyde,

I forgot to ask you -- which inputs are these SM settings for?

Strictly DVI -- I let my Samsung TS360 convert everything else to 720p.

Clyde Washburn
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post #643 of 1751 Old 03-04-2004, 12:30 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by k2ue
Strictly DVI -- I let my Samsung TS360 convert everything else to 720p.

I have the TS160 on DVI for HLN617W. I set it to 1080i since most of the stuff available right now comes in as 1080i so I figured that would let the better (?) scaler in the Sammy do the down conversion to 720p on the native signal. Of course that would result on the few 720p shows getting double converted (to 1080i in the TS160 and back to 720p in the HLN). Any thoughts? Should I change to 720p output?

Oh when oh when will my HR10-250 be here with remote selectable output formats? Oh when oh when will they have an update for the HR10-250 to allow native pass-through?
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post #644 of 1751 Old 03-04-2004, 01:14 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by mercurial
I have the TS160 on DVI for HLN617W. I set it to 1080i since most of the stuff available right now comes in as 1080i so I figured that would let the better (?) scaler in the Sammy do the down conversion to 720p on the native signal. Of course that would result on the few 720p shows getting double converted (to 1080i in the TS160 and back to 720p in the HLN). Any thoughts? Should I change to 720p output?

Oh when oh when will my HR10-250 be here with remote selectable output formats? Oh when oh when will they have an update for the HR10-250 to allow native pass-through?

I started with the TS360 into my HLN467W at DVI and my HDVR2 into it at S-video. I decided it would be easier for my wife to operate if source selection was done in the TS360, and moved the HDVR2 to it for conversion to 720p. It looked as least as good, with no tint to fiddle -- while transponders vary it seems to average right where DVI does, so I don't need an adjustment.

All things being equal one conversion is preferable to two, and since in the only cases that matter to me they are equal, I let the TS360 do it once, and also for DVD (fed to the TS360 as component).

There seems to be enormous fascination with 1080 being a bigger number than 720, but I am not impressed -- I once had to work on a frame tank to standards-convert, and the prospect of going thru that process twice leaves me cold -- I think you'd wind up with about 500 line resolution on a 720 channel that gets converted twice and 720 on a 1080 converted once -- vs. 720 doing it once on a 1080 or 720 doing it not at all on 720 in.

Clyde Washburn
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post #645 of 1751 Old 03-04-2004, 01:36 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by k2ue
Dynamic (no changes) and Normal Color.

I also have firmware 309 so I was interested in your settings. Mine are close to yours but not exactly the same on all settings. I didn't like the gamma 0 as it seemed hazy to me. I do notice that my Toshiba SD4900 DVD seems to push a lot of color more than the other components I have. Best color setting is about 33. That is down considerable from the normal dynamic settings. I guess each set will vary slightly, but out-of-the box, it was so green that the only movie I probably could stand to watch that way would have been The Hulk. But your settings and observations were helpful especially about not being able to use the gray scale exactly to achieve a good color/tint balance of 6500K.

Thanks
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post #646 of 1751 Old 03-04-2004, 01:50 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by k2ue
All things being equal one conversion is preferable to two, and since in the only cases that matter to me they are equal, I let the TS360 do it once, and also for DVD (fed to the TS360 as component).

There seems to be enormous fascination with 1080 being a bigger number than 720, but I am not impressed -- I once had to work on a frame tank to standards-convert, and the prospect of going thru that process twice leaves me cold -- I think you'd wind up with about 500 line resolution on a 720 channel that gets converted twice and 720 on a 1080 converted once -- vs. 720 doing it once on a 1080 or 720 doing it not at all on 720 in.

Well, for me it wasn't a fascination with 1080i- I was trying to figure out which was the better scaler. The one in the HLN617W is supposed to be one of the best so by outputting the resolution that matches most of the native broadcast resolution, then you let it do it in the set. For the few 720p broadcasts, you'd get the double convert. It seemed to make sense that the $5K set should do it better than the $300 STB.

I'll try setting it to 720p and figure out if I can tell a real difference.
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post #647 of 1751 Old 03-04-2004, 02:03 PM
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I tried both and couldn't tell the difference myself with the Sammy T165 STB set either way. I could tell the difference with my DVD. By not using the progressive mode of the DVD and letting the Sammy doing the scaling the picture was a ton better.
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post #648 of 1751 Old 03-04-2004, 02:30 PM
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Clyde,

So let me get this straight....you run your DVD through your TS360? Also, just out of curiosity -- I'm a PVR junkie...what do you use if you have to run everything through the TS360?
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post #649 of 1751 Old 03-04-2004, 02:37 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by jtirak
I tried both and couldn't tell the difference myself with the Sammy T165 STB set either way. I could tell the difference with my DVD. By not using the progressive mode of the DVD and letting the Sammy doing the scaling the picture was a ton better.

Which is odd because that is the result I expected but on my Sony DVD changer, I felt the picture looked better with the DVD player set to progressive. It's hooked up via component. Maybe I need to look at that again to make sure it really was better. Maybe there should be an easier way to compare before and after... Maybe I should stop obsessing....
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post #650 of 1751 Old 03-04-2004, 03:34 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by smartbomb
Clyde,

So let me get this straight....you run your DVD through your TS360? Also, just out of curiosity -- I'm a PVR junkie...what do you use if you have to run everything through the TS360?

The DVD is temporary -- I have a Bravo D1 and Gefen DVI+Optical switch on order, so when the HD Tivo comes I'll be all DVI.

Clyde Washburn
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post #651 of 1751 Old 03-04-2004, 08:07 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by mercurial
Which is odd because that is the result I expected but on my Sony DVD changer, I felt the picture looked better with the DVD player set to progressive. It's hooked up via component. Maybe I need to look at that again to make sure it really was better. Maybe there should be an easier way to compare before and after... Maybe I should stop obsessing....

I obsess also. Everytime I think I have tweaked the picture to my likeing, I see something else the next time I turn it on and go tweaking again. It is obessive. I keep thining I am looking contrast on my DVI port.
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post #652 of 1751 Old 03-08-2004, 06:41 AM
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What does adjusting the gamma level do?
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post #653 of 1751 Old 03-08-2004, 06:56 AM
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As a new owner, I noticed that when you first turn it on it takes a few minutes for the picture to stable in color. I this correct? Is this the bulb just settling down to operating optimum?
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post #654 of 1751 Old 03-08-2004, 06:59 AM
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I've noticed the same thing and have heard that the set just takes longer than other sets to warm up.
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post #655 of 1751 Old 03-08-2004, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Respectabull
What does adjusting the gamma level do?

It changes the shape of the video level vs. light output curve. In the HLN's the Gamma # is just a map or curve identifier -- the number is not related to the actual gamma function the curve produces, and they are not in any significant order. For NTSC video the reference "correct" gamma is close to the grid response of an unmodified CRT, but for non-CRT displays or CRTs with digital input signals the curve can be manipulated as desired in the digital-to-analog conversion process. As a practical matter the bit-width (number of discrete levels recognized) affects what curves can be usefully produced in digital systems -- if the CRT-like curve is reproduced too slavishly at low light levels on displays with relatively linear control characteristics there with be a wide range of low levels mapped to a small number of digital levels, accenting the "clay faces" tendency. Useful gamma curves compromise this effect with adherence to the expected curve at higher light levels. The differences in many of the HLN curves appears to be the strategy for transitioning between these two regimes.

Clyde Washburn
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post #656 of 1751 Old 03-08-2004, 08:06 AM
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But, for practical purposes, how does adjusting the gamma level affect the picture? I'm finding that in dark scenes certain things, hair for instance, ooks unreal, almost animated. Can this be correted by tweaking the set/gamma levels?
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post #657 of 1751 Old 03-14-2004, 04:42 PM
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well my experiment with DVI is over. I have had it hooked up for a few weeks and i have decided its way too "washed out" looking for my taste....i have gone back to component 3. are there any settings i should adjsut to on DVI to get a better picture? it just didn't have the vivid bright colors that this TV is so capable of displaying.

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post #658 of 1751 Old 03-14-2004, 05:04 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by macd23
well my experiment with DVI is over. I have had it hooked up for a few weeks and i have decided its way too "washed out" looking for my taste....i have gone back to component 3. are there any settings i should adjsut to on DVI to get a better picture? it just didn't have the vivid bright colors that this TV is so capable of displaying.

The color level is adjustable when using the DVI input -- was the highest setting still too low for you?

Clyde Washburn
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post #659 of 1751 Old 03-14-2004, 08:01 PM
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k2ue or anyone else with sammy dlp...

if anyone else has a light meter....can you measure your light output with contrast @ 100% on the 100% IRE window. I'm trying to determine how many footlamberts or cd/m2 these sets are capable of putting out.

I know the 43" and 50" have the 100w lamp, while the 61" has the 120w lamp....not sure about the 46" and 56" models.

Dave
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post #660 of 1751 Old 03-15-2004, 06:03 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by holemania
k2ue or anyone else with sammy dlp...

if anyone else has a light meter....can you measure your light output with contrast @ 100% on the 100% IRE window. I'm trying to determine how many footlamberts or cd/m2 these sets are capable of putting out.

I know the 43" and 50" have the 100w lamp, while the 61" has the 120w lamp....not sure about the 46" and 56" models.

It depends on both the Gamma and calibration temperature. At Gamma 0 and calibrated to 6500K peak white is 50cd/m^2, and the gray scale is very close to a true gamma=2.5 response. Gamma 4 boosts the light output to 75 (all other setting being the same) and is too bright in the mid IRE range relative to gamma=2.5. It also skews blue/green in the top IREs. I get the impression that about 50cd/m^2 is it for 6500K, above that output there is not much more red to be had and the output will skew blue/green, for lack of red. I recall readings around 90 with the original factory settings. I have the HLN467W, with a 100W lamp.

Clyde Washburn
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