Samsung DLP -N- series tweaks thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 1754 Old 05-05-2003, 01:04 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by smalloy
Jeff -

Your sanity may still be in question, but not because of this.

Amen, brother. I think the jury is going to be out on THAT question for a LONG time.

I am wondering now if perhaps the lack of "sharpness" having any effect is due to our owning the HLN species as opposed to the HLM one?

Let's hear from anyone else who has an HLN model and actually notices any difference from one sharpness level to another.

Thanks,
Jeff
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post #92 of 1754 Old 05-05-2003, 01:15 PM
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I have a HLM507W with HLN internals (Firmware v204). I do not notice a difference in sharpness levels either so I just keep the level at 0 which is my standard practice on CRT's. As for Iceblade's difficulty tweaking color with AVIA, I find it much easier than VE thanks to the pulsating color bars pattern.
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post #93 of 1754 Old 05-05-2003, 01:25 PM
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Guys,
Do you really think they eliminated sharpness adjustment on HLNs? That is just so weird. I have thought about it and am sorry I can not help. Hopefully they set it at 9 to optimize it.

I also have incurred the wrath of members, but part of all of this is connecting with other people. One or two brief annecdotes are okay ( I hope).

Mark

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post #94 of 1754 Old 05-05-2003, 01:36 PM
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I'll need to perform a more controlled experiment when I get home. I'm wondering if DNIe being on might have affected the sharpness control.

And speaking of which, am I the only one who seems to prefer DNIe OFF for DVDs (non-progressive, component 1 input)? Specifically, it tends to make the clay faces and banding problems less evident (though they still exist).
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post #95 of 1754 Old 05-05-2003, 02:06 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by smalloy
I'll need to perform a more controlled experiment when I get home. I'm wondering if DNIe being on might have affected the sharpness control.

And speaking of which, am I the only one who seems to prefer DNIe OFF for DVDs (non-progressive, component 1 input)? Specifically, it tends to make the clay faces and banding problems less evident (though they still exist).

smalloy,

Now that is not something I have messed with yet to battle the clayfaces. I'll put that on my list of "things to try". Right now, my reference DVD to combat clayfaces is ATOC. This DVD appears to exhibit virtually every problem I have with this tv so far.

Thanks,
Jeff
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post #96 of 1754 Old 05-05-2003, 03:03 PM
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I tried watching AOTC, but, God help me, it's a poorly-acted cartoon.

Clayfaces have been most evident to me in the Matrix - esp chapter 4 with Trinity in the bar, as discussed before in another thread, and LOTR, the scene where the gang gets surrounded by orcs in Moria, before the Balrog starts chasing after them. Frodo's face in a couple of closeups, and some of the orcs materalizing from the floor look particularly bad.

DNIe seems to exaggerate contrast in shadow details and really make some of the clayfaces obvious. Especially in highlights (shiny parts of faces, etc).

Of course, turning up the black level makes the clay faces much less noticable, but then I've lost all shadow detail.

Perhaps having the set ISF'd will give me a more true black and help eliminate these problems. Certainly the ISF technician who sold me the set seems to think so
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post #97 of 1754 Old 05-05-2003, 03:54 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by smalloy
I'll need to perform a more controlled experiment when I get home. I'm wondering if DNIe being on might have affected the sharpness control.

And speaking of which, am I the only one who seems to prefer DNIe OFF for DVDs (non-progressive, component 1 input)? Specifically, it tends to make the clay faces and banding problems less evident (though they still exist).

That's one of the first things I check when I run across a DVD with poor PQ. Most of the time DNIE is turned off on my set (even on the new "N").

-John
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post #98 of 1754 Old 05-05-2003, 04:51 PM
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I'm more of a video newbie but I have seen many of the problems discussed with my N-617. The beast arrived a couple of weeks back and I definitely see color banding / clay face / color quantization problems. I too tried using the calibration CD's and had a similar experience to yours in that the test patterns and procedures don't seem totally appropriate to DLP. Blooming in particular is non-existent at any intensity level, sharpness had little or no effect, geometry fine, etc. Like you, I prefer the color levels lower than they recommend.

The easiest way I've found to see the rainbow effect is using one of the grid test patterns that display white vertical lines on a black background, and then quickly flicking my gaze from one side to the other. The quick eye motions will cause huge separations in colors. Not a realistic test, but it sure makes it obvious.

The question I've got is how does a professional calibrator know what to adjust if the Service Menu isn't documented in service manuals?
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post #99 of 1754 Old 05-05-2003, 05:00 PM
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Forgive the noob question but which movie is AOTC? I must be tired because I can't figure it out.

I posted in another thread that I tested with a HTPC and the scene you're talking about from the Matrix went away. This was proof of concept test with just enough equipment in the pc to get the job done. I threw all my clay face movies at it and it blew right by them. I noticed much better details and colors too. Here's the thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8&pagenumber=2

I'm sure I'll figure out AOTC 5 seconds after I post this.


Quote:


Originally posted by smalloy
I tried watching AOTC, but, God help me, it's a poorly-acted cartoon.

Clayfaces have been most evident to me in the Matrix - esp chapter 4 with Trinity in the bar, as discussed before in another thread, and LOTR, the scene where the gang gets surrounded by orcs in Moria, before the Balrog starts chasing after them. Frodo's face in a couple of closeups, and some of the orcs materalizing from the floor look particularly bad.


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post #100 of 1754 Old 05-05-2003, 05:05 PM
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Star Wars Episode II.. Attack of the Clones..
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post #101 of 1754 Old 05-05-2003, 05:36 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Iceblade
John,

Do you have the manual with you right now? If so, can you verify for me that it does, indeed, have a new section that the HLM version did not... that being the part about bulb replacement. I THINK it might be near the back, perhaps even in an appendix or something, but I am almost CERTAIN I saw a pic of accessing the bulb assembly and such.

Thanks,
Jeff

Jeff (and everyone else),

The manual that came with my N617 covers the following models:

HLN4365W/HLN5065W/HLN437W/HLN507W/HLN617W

and the last section does cover "Replacing the Lamp" (Page 88)...

1. Use a screwdriver to remove the screw as shown in the picture.
2. Remove the Lamp cover.
3. Use a screwdriver to remove the screws securing the Lamp. There are 2 screws: one on the left and one on the right. When the screws have been completely unfastened, they will still be connected to the body of the lamp.
4. Separate the Lamp from the engine by holding the handle and pulling it out.
5. To reinstall the Lamp, follow these steps in reverse order.
Note: Be sure the replacement Lamp is the same model. (The sticker on the side of the TV has the Lamp model number.

-John
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post #102 of 1754 Old 05-09-2003, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by cwzell
I have brand new HLN617W, and as I said in another current thread, the PQ is merely OK, and at this price point not good enough. Hopefully I can improve it with the Service Menu.

My dealer told me that if I get into the SM, the warantee is void. Is this really true? Can they tell if I have been in there or not? I don't see how there is a chance I'll want to keep it if I can't tweek it!

BTW, if I decide to keep it, I'll want it ISF calibrated. I'd like to get someone who knows about dlps, but is that possible given their immaturity. Hate to pay the $$$ for a newbie to learn how.

Cheers,
Chris

Okay - first time poster here but I'm glad I found this place I must say! Arun Gupta's "unofficial guide to HLN's" was a great help in getting started...however, cwzell is on to something when he says the warranty becomes void if you get into the service menu - and I'm surprised nobody else has brought this up yet. I bought my HLN617W with the TS-160 from Tweeter for $4650 & $530 respectively and just received it today in less than a week...haven't even had a full hour of watching it yet, but I'm glad it's Friday! My question is how significant are the changes I am going to see by manipulating the service menu controls vs. leaving them at the factory defaults and just adjusting the user menu settings? And would Tweeter really be able to tell if the factory defaults were adjusted? Does anyone have the default settings so they can be reset in the event the warranty is invoked? Most of you seem incredibly savvy with respect to this equipment and any advice/comments are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Mike

p.s. and YES I did read this entire thread!
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post #103 of 1754 Old 05-09-2003, 04:36 PM
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Mike - I don't have a HLN yet, so these comments are made based on the expierences of others - but maybe it makes them less biased, as well.

The differences between HL-M- untweaked and tweaked were apparently huge. The HLNs have better out of the box performance, so there is less improvement to be had. That being said, there are some reports that SM adjustment can help with color temperature, clay faces/color banding, etc. I am a little wary because the claims come from an ISF guy and one of his clients that paid for an over the phone SM adjustment session (being totally digital, this actually is a good idea for this TV, as the same settings should get every one 95% there). I have no reason AT ALL to doubt the claims of Josh and his customer, and I am considering paying for that service, too. However, I just mean that a grain of salt is always necessary when you are talking about money and buyer's logic (self justification!). The other issue is that different video sources produce different results, so it is hard to get an unbiased idea of anyone's results.

In sum, I think that there is improvement to be had in the SM that cannot be touched with the user menu, even using Avia or Video Essentials. Things like gamma adjustment are available, and some people have had good results. Just getting the color to about 6500 all the way across is pretty great, and doable if you have the right equipment, or access to someone who does. However, without a very good eye, professional equipment, etc., the benefits may not be attainable. What we need is for all those Texas AVS guys to go out and upgrade to HLNs, and have another RPTV party and produce SM tweaks for the new sets. Maybe we can get Samsung to buy the beer?

Good luck with your set!
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post #104 of 1754 Old 05-09-2003, 04:59 PM
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Thanks RDaneel!

Since I don't know what I'm missing yet, perhaps I might be better off at the moment leaving well enough alone when it comes to the SM. The set is already a billion times better than anything I've ever owned...bigger problem was finding a stand to set it on since I wasn't too fond of the Samsung stand - went with a Bell'o instead.

What is the deal with the TS-160 receiver for DTV? People seem to not be too fond of it for some reason? I finally made the switch from cable to satellite and there doesn't seem to be any consensus on the best source - though DTV is the only way to get the NFL package and RSN's.
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post #105 of 1754 Old 05-09-2003, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RDaneel
Mike - I don't have a HLN yet, so these comments are made based on the expierences of others - but maybe it makes them less biased, as well.

The differences between HL-M- untweaked and tweaked were apparently huge. The HLNs have better out of the box performance, so there is less improvement to be had. That being said, there are some reports that SM adjustment can help with color temperature, clay faces/color banding, etc. I am a little wary because the claims come from an ISF guy and one of his clients that paid for an over the phone SM adjustment session (being totally digital, this actually is a good idea for this TV, as the same settings should get every one 95% there). I have no reason AT ALL to doubt the claims of Josh and his customer, and I am considering paying for that service, too. However, I just mean that a grain of salt is always necessary when you are talking about money and buyer's logic (self justification!). The other issue is that different video sources produce different results, so it is hard to get an unbiased idea of anyone's results.Good luck with your set!
RDaneel

Mike,

As the aforementioned "one of his clients" let me be perfectly frank with you. For what Josh charged to do the over the phone calibration, I don't NEED to justify to myself, nor anyone else having spent the money on this calibration. There have been mulitple sets of eyes that viewed my set BEFORE I had this done, and those same eyes AFTER the calibration and they all came up with similar comments, "Hey dude... what did you change? This looks much better than it did last weekend"... or something to that effect.

Ok, so now to address the issue of "different components into different inputs". This is my understanding... take it for what it is worth (about two pesos). A DVI video source into the DVI input of the tv will be unchanged from the source to the tv. Any change to the actual image displayed on the screen will be the result of things within the tv ONLY. DVI is a DIGITAL transmission. There is no "decoding" of color material separation of Y from Cb and Cr. There is no analog to digital conversion. Basically with DVI, whatever is on the DVD, OTA, cable or satellite broadcast signal is what you get at the input of the tv. Assuming that the source material isn't hosed, if you calibrate your DVI input to as close to 6500K, then in theory, ANY DVI source plugged into that jack should look just about equal, variations in the source itself being the only differentiator.

This is a fairly DIFFERENT story from component, composite or S-Vid signals from a video source component. It suffers from all the things that DVI does NOT. i.e. decoding issues, Y Cb Cr separation issues, analog to digital conversion (and back to digital for display on the tv).

Anywho... didn't want you to get too skewed of a view from some of these other posts. Bottom line is, if you are happy with your set as is, AWESOME! Enjoy it. If you find yourself whining about this and that the way I did, see if you can do something about it. I chose to go down a path that had me pay money to someone who's job it is to make this set look good. The fact that my warranty remains in tact is cool. The fact that I didn't have to schedule time off work to have a guy come over to my house and charge me an arm and a leg to calibrate my tv to at least one source component that I plan on trashing as soon as a DVI DVD player comes out makes me happy too. Your mileage may vary. Let your eyes and your gut be your guide.

One last thing. The day this tv was shipped to my house, the delivery guy asked if he could stick around a minute and see me fire it up. I said "Sure", thinking that I could be a big man on the block with my new kick butt tv. I fired up my old DTC100, flipped on HD NET where a basketball game was being shown and went... "There ya go". I looked at the guy... he looked at the picture, he looked at me and said, "I don't mean to dis your tv. But, don't take this the wrong way, I mean, it looks good... but I don't think it looks as good as it should for what you paid for it. I guess HD isn't the hype that I hear about all the time after all." And with that, he left.

Color me a very deflated individual from that point until last night.

Just a little feedback...

Best of luck in whatever you decide. As long as you are happy, that's the key.

I figure someone will get on the ball and ColorFacts one of these suckers pretty soon. At that point you can figure out if you can live without tweaking your way to a possibly better picture than what you have.

Have a good weekend,
Jeff
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post #106 of 1754 Old 05-10-2003, 09:30 AM
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The basic "some reason" is pretty simple. It was rushed out the door with numerous silly unexcusable glitches and they haven't indicated they even intend to fix many of them. The sad thing is if they fixed a few things it would be a pretty Kick A box. But with only 2 DVI boxes out there (anybody seen Toshiba or RCA--what a joke!), what real incentive do they have to fix.

Quote:


Originally posted by Red Angel
What is the deal with the TS-160 receiver for DTV? People seem to not be too fond of it for some reason?


Matt
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post #107 of 1754 Old 05-10-2003, 11:21 AM
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OK guys, I know you are all super great video gurus but some practical information to those of us not quite on your level would be great once in a while.

I finally managed to enter the service menu. I was confronted with a bunch of codes. There was no way of knowing what any of them meant. Out of all the chatter going about Gamma settings, only one person (Jeff) mentioned that the Gamma adjustment was under code "DDP1010" (By the way, 5 definitely seems to improve the black detail).

Is anybody else out there also curious about the codes? Do any of you know what they stand for?

eaf
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post #108 of 1754 Old 05-10-2003, 09:08 PM
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Yes, I would be venturing for the first time into the SM and would like to know what all the code interpretations are, or at least what the major one's are that I should be tampering with.

Any help or guide on this would be very helpful.
Thanks in advance!
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post #109 of 1754 Old 05-10-2003, 11:14 PM
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Guys, can I encourage you to read this thread "before" you go into the "black hole".

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=247169

There is some rather complete tweaking information for the original HLM507 but not for the HLN sets or the later HLM sets.
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post #110 of 1754 Old 05-11-2003, 08:43 AM
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It would be well worth the money to get ISF tech Josh Lehman's SM tweaks after you buy your set (jlehman@docdvd.com). Black levels and detail enhancment are awesome. He has spent many hours adusting Samsung DLP's and his research is your benefit. I just did my 507 over the phone with Josh and the results are dramatic over factory settings plus it is factory authorized.
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post #111 of 1754 Old 05-11-2003, 09:47 AM
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For me getting good black levels on my HLM617W has been due to a combination of items, at least for DVD, which is where I really care about it.

1) I set gamma to 0
2) I had the Component 1 input calibrated by an ISF tech. He also liked the Gamma 0 setting the best, both with test patterns and with DVD video playback.
3) Using a good quality cable. I have a Transparent Cable "High Performance" component video cable, which is their entry level product.
4) I use a good quality DVD player. I have a Marantz DV7100, which had a MSRP of about $900 when I bought it a few years ago.

Recently, I auditioned an Arcam DV88 Plus DVD player for a weekend. While it's expensive at MSRP $1599, it produced incredible results. Black levels and detail improved further, color looked better and more natural, and the dithering/pixelation I noticed with solid colors (like background walls, skies, etc) all but disappeared. Audio playback is also much better.

I plan to buy the Arcam this year. I know many forum members might gasp at the thought of spending 4 figures on a DVD player, but it seems reasonable to me for a $15K home theater setup, which is about what I have into it when you include the DD/DTS audio gear.

Dean

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post #112 of 1754 Old 05-12-2003, 11:38 AM
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Thanks for the update IceBlade - wondering still however what your issues are with the TS-160 HD box that Samsung makes...I'm assuming that you have an HLN and not an HLM that you had tweaked - correct? That being said, I am in fact quite happy with the performance of the set out of the box, probably because I don't know what I'm missing. One thing I have noticed with my HLN is that when receiving a standard digital signal via DTV, the picture tends to improve gradually when left on the same channel for a few minutes - and it definitely should be viewed from at least the minimum viewing distance of 11 feet or so. The HD pictures are nothing short of jaw-dropping to me compared to anything else I've seen without any tweaks to the SM...so the bottom line for me is that if the warranty is going to be void if I go into the SM, I'm just going to leave well-enough alone. Because my set simply rocks right out of the box.
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post #113 of 1754 Old 05-12-2003, 05:32 PM
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IceBlade,

What have you done about the geometry issues? Are you going to live with them?

Frank
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post #114 of 1754 Old 05-12-2003, 06:23 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by ftlee
IceBlade,

What have you done about the geometry issues? Are you going to live with them?

Frank

Hey Frank,

I don't think I really have a choice. I haven't had a chance to even turn the damn tv on since Josh recalibrated for my crappy DVD player.
I might consider having someone come out and take a peek at it... I think you had alluded to it looking more like a "tilt" than an actual geometry problem from the pics I posted. Once I get a chance to actually watch it for a decent amount of time I will see if it bugs me as much as it did last week.

Thanks,
Jeff
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post #115 of 1754 Old 05-12-2003, 06:27 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Red Angel
Thanks for the update IceBlade - wondering still however what your issues are with the TS-160 HD box that Samsung makes...I'm assuming that you have an HLN and not an HLM that you had tweaked - correct? That being said, I am in fact quite happy with the performance of the set out of the box, probably because I don't know what I'm missing. One thing I have noticed with my HLN is that when receiving a standard digital signal via DTV, the picture tends to improve gradually when left on the same channel for a few minutes - and it definitely should be viewed from at least the minimum viewing distance of 11 feet or so. The HD pictures are nothing short of jaw-dropping to me compared to anything else I've seen without any tweaks to the SM...so the bottom line for me is that if the warranty is going to be void if I go into the SM, I'm just going to leave well-enough alone. Because my set simply rocks right out of the box.

Red Angel,

You are correct, I have an HLN617W Tantus model. I haven't noticed the "leave it on an SD channel and it improves" thing at this point. I view it from 14' away. HD does, in fact, look pretty darn good.

Glad you are enjoying your tv. I am personally STUNNED that you like it that much OTOB, but if you are happy... groovy. Too bad you don't know someone in your area that has one that has been tweaked... then you could see the difference firsthand.

Enjoy your set!

Later,
Jeff
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post #116 of 1754 Old 05-12-2003, 07:57 PM
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I totally dig my HLN617W (out of the box). I haven't had to make any tweaks to it. I turned of DNIe, but that's about it. The prior HLM617W was virtually unwatchable, so I've experienced both sides. Oh, I did catch my first rainbow today. I was unable to duplicate it, so maybe it was a fluke?

On a side note, does anyone have some sort of bias lighting behind their DLP? I set up a light today, and the TV absolutely FREAKED out (until I turned the light back off).
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post #117 of 1754 Old 05-12-2003, 08:25 PM
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IceBlade,

Not sure if I missed it, it is late. After the calibration that you did how do you feel about the PQ of the set? Is SD improved? Is color-banding eliminated? Are the twinkles gone? Do you still have clayfaces?

As a side note, is the picture darker than it was before calibration? Every TV that I have seen that has been ISF calibrated seems to be very dim. Is this the case?

Thanks,

Frank
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post #118 of 1754 Old 05-12-2003, 11:53 PM
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johnevo,

When you say your set FREAKED OUT with a bias light on, how do you mean? Was it just electrical interference? Did you try plugging the bias light into another circuit and running an extension cord to place it close to the set, just to see what would happen?

I have an HLN617W and an IdealLume, both scheduled to be delivered on Thursday 5/15 (plus a Sammy HD931 DVD player!).

Thanks,
dB
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post #119 of 1754 Old 05-13-2003, 04:39 AM
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dB,

I was just trying the light to see what a difference it would be behind the TV. It's an older florescent light that I had lying around. Anyhow, I had it plugged into one of the outlet ports on my receiver, so it would turn on/off when it did.

Anyhow, last night we had company, and we all went down to the A/V room to watch a movie. I turned everything on, which was the first time the TV and the light were on at the same time, and the TV freaked. First it showed some light black static, and some thick white bars kind of pulsed in the background. Then when I tried to pull up the input menu, the whole screen turned into a mess of colors... everything appeared to be random, and just about every color was used.

I then turned off the TV, turned off the light, then turned the TV back on. Everything was back to normal. I assumed it was interference coming off the florescent light, but I didn't have time to investigate. I plan to mess around with it later this week.

I'd be interested to hear how your setup works! Or any one else who has a light behind their DLP... what kind of light, and what lumen/filter/etc?

-John
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post #120 of 1754 Old 05-13-2003, 07:22 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by ftlee
IceBlade,

Not sure if I missed it, it is late. After the calibration that you did how do you feel about the PQ of the set? Is SD improved? Is color-banding eliminated? Are the twinkles gone? Do you still have clayfaces?

As a side note, is the picture darker than it was before calibration? Every TV that I have seen that has been ISF calibrated seems to be very dim. Is this the case?

Thanks,

Frank

No problem, Frank.

To be honest, I have not had a chance to put this sucker through it's paces post-calibration. I HOPE to be able to give an updated "how I feel" in regards to DVD playback by end of week.

Here are the questions I CAN answer:

1.) SD through the TS-160 sucks. It's the box. I gotta believe that. SD through the DVI looks watchable. OTA SD content looks better than D* content... but that's no surprise.

2.) HD looks pretty damn good. Very happy with the quality of PBS and HD NET specifically. I am running the TS160 in 720p output mode.

3.) Twinkles... this is one of those things that just can't be eliminated. I will have to learn to live with them. Not a deal breaker... but at least I know I am not hallucinating them as others have seen what I am talking about.

Color-banding or clay-faces verdict will have to wait. I believe Josh flat out said that they can't be eliminated, but can be attenuated. My guess is that I will still see them, but they may not be as apparent.

As for the darkness of the picture... that really seems to be HIGHLY dependant on your DVD player. Josh had to spend extra time with me to counteract the effects of my P.O.S. player. Once he did, I saw details on ATOC that I didn't even know were there. For instance, in Chapter 4 of ATOC, the Jedi council is having a pow-wow with Palpatine. Before calibration (and before re-tweaking to deal with my DVD player), Palpatine appeared to be wearing a mass of black... i.e. no discernible features other than a black blob. AFTER calibration I could see that he had a sort of cumberbund on under the robe and some other details. It was amazing the difference! I can't say that I believe that my picture is "dark" at all. I have really good contrast and brightness levels to MY eyes. I use an Ideal-Lume bias light behind my tv reflecting on a medium gray wall. Not sure if that has any effect, but my eyes don't "wig out" nearly as much when the picture goes from dark to light. I consider "CSI:Miami" a fairly good acid test for contrast and brightness. They constantly toggle between exterior bright Miami sunshine and cold and dark medical examiner's table. Looks pretty impressive to me. Details are apparent in both. I ran downstairs to watch the same program on my 36" direct view in HD and actually thought the 61" looked better. I think I need to recalibrate my direct view AGAIN... it appears to be somewhat color saturated.

I'll let everyone know my further thoughts.

Later,
Jeff
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