Video delay on the HLN Samsung DLP (Old Sound delay thread) - Page 74 - AVS Forum
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post #2191 of 2207 Old 04-07-2005, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by AkaStp
I also experienced lip sync problems on a HLP5063 when fed by Panasonic S97 upconvert DVD player at 720p over HDMI... there is no problem when using the Panasonic S97 upconvert DVD player at 720p over HDMI into a Sony 55XS955.

So, how can it be a problem with the DVD player?
OK, firstly, the Panasonic is a Faroudja player, so lip-sync is an issue. Secondly, this thread has discussed 2 lip-sync issues typical to Faroudja; the terrible (>200ms) intermittent delay, and the small (<40ms) constant delay. Like Samsung, Panasonic seems to have addressed the first issue, which usually introduces the second issue. So, like Samsung again, Panasonic wisely designed the sync to be configurable (in the main setup menu for the S97).
Assuming you did not adjust the sync on your player, the delay may not be distracting when watching on another set, but the DLP lag could be compounding it just enough to make it much more noticeable. See my second-last post above. Try adjusting the sync on your S97 to compensate.

Quote:
Originally posted by AkaStp
I supsect the problem may be due to the processing overhead of DNIe and/or DNR in the Samsung HLP.
I absolutely agree that DNIe and DNR should be turned OFF, for many reasons. Its the first thing I do on these sets.

Gary
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post #2192 of 2207 Old 04-07-2005, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by EHHoffman
I seem to recall hearing the same tolerance numbers. Seems kind of high to me, as 60ms is close to 2 frames. I could see 33ms under certain conditions; watching pool, large talking heads with certain syllables, etc...

If this was the only delay we ever had to worry about, then it wouldn't be any real issue most of the time. The problem is many sources are not completely in sync either, so the cumulative delay can get to be quite large.

In the days of only CRTs, it was less of an issue because the display didn't introduce any additional delay so you only had what was in the source.
You are quite right about cumulative delay.

In 2 frames, the mouth does not move very far, and the delay is not easily detectable, especially if the observer is not looking out for it. But when a high speed event occurs (like the pool ball) it may be momentarily detectable.

Gary
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post #2193 of 2207 Old 04-07-2005, 03:11 PM
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Thankfully, a good DVD player is usually able to compensate for delays at the source, before the sound ever reaches a receiver. But a TV cannot, so it often gets all the blame for lip-sync issues.

In the latter case, if it really bugs you, you could either:
  1. Buy a receiver that is able to compensate for the delays introduced by the TV.
  2. Buy a TV without Faroudja delay issues. But then you pay the price in picture quality - deinterlacing and scaling performance suffers with certain material.
Pick your poison!

Above all, remember to check your signal source for delays... and watch out for cumulative delays!

Gary
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post #2194 of 2207 Old 04-20-2005, 05:52 PM
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Well... after over a year of the ongoing lipsync saga... My tech came out for a 5th and last time to confirm the video lag (after a previous full guts swap, two board swap, etc...) While on-site, he adjusted the SM delay settings and we watched a variety of sources (DVD, Cable, all inputs, etc...) There was a billiards tournament on ESPN - horrible. we tried the camcorder on s-video - horrible (snapped fingers and bounced golfballs - way off). DVE sound/video delay sequence (through the TV speakers with the SM delay set at 3). I heard the blip at the '10'oclock' video position and he said it was more like 12PM. Anyway, I thought we both agreed that the video lag was still an issue. Then after a week I called Samsung DSG and they said that the tech told them that everything was 'in spec' and that it was a closed ticket. They told me that since the tecnician filled out the form that everything was in spec, that the whole thing is a closed issue and that there's nothing else they can do. What should I do next? Am I SOL? What's the next step?
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post #2195 of 2207 Old 04-21-2005, 06:34 AM
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I have a Denon 3600 AVR which has an audio delay adjustment for each set of speakers. Unfortunately, the user manual is not clear on selecting the distance settings. The distance is set in meters or feet starting at 1. Is 1 foot / meter distance for the least audio delay and 12 feet / meter for a longer audio delay? Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks!

Have a great day!

AllenN
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post #2196 of 2207 Old 04-21-2005, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by allenn
I have a Denon 3600 AVR which has an audio delay adjustment for each set of speakers. Unfortunately, the user manual is not clear on selecting the distance settings. The distance is set in meters or feet starting at 1. Is 1 foot / meter distance for the least audio delay and 12 feet / meter for a longer audio delay? Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks!
The delay settings of which you speak is not normally used to correct this issue. That is used to adjust the timings of each surround channel to keep the surround field in phase. Basically, the idea is that you measure the distance from a sweet-spot to each speaker and then set the distances accordingly. This, in theory, makes all the sounds arrive at the same time.

The sound delay feature that is needed to correct this video-delay issue is an over-all sound delay, irrespective of any surround channel. It is normaly measuered in ms, not distance. When I was looking at AVRs, many more of them DIDN'T have this feature then did. I'm not sure about your model.

--Eric
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post #2197 of 2207 Old 04-21-2005, 08:25 AM
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This feature may be used to correct the time delay if it is small. You will have to play around with the distances to find the correction.
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post #2198 of 2207 Old 04-21-2005, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fedreams
This feature may be used to correct the time delay if it is small. You will have to play around with the distances to find the correction.
I suppose you could try and use it for that. You likely won't get enough adjustment though.

If I recall my physics correctly, the speed of sound is about 1130ft/s at 70 degrees F, or about 1.1ft/ms. a 10 ft adjustment is then likely to give you only about 11ms of adjustment where as your likely to need something in the range of 30-60ms or more to correct the video lag.

The other problem with that is trying to figure out what exactly the sound processor is doing when you tell it a given speaker is say, 16ft away. Since the purpose of this feature is to get the sound from each speaker to arrive at your ears at the same time, it will likely be doing some calculations based on the settings of each speaker. The farther away from the speaker you are, the longer it takes for the sound to arrive, so in theory, the shortest distance settings on the AVR will result in the longest sound delays. But again, I don't know that you can assume it will work this way, since the sound processor is likely taking into account the settings of all speakers before determining what delay each speaker will get.

--Eric
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post #2199 of 2207 Old 04-21-2005, 02:47 PM
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I have the HLN5065w model and I have only experienced the out of sync issue when playing mpgs and avis through windows media player. But that goes away if I stop and start the movie. I've never noticed it on cable or dvd's. A friend at work just bought a new Sammy DLP and he experienced the issue. The rep at Best Buy told him to run all his sound and audio through the av receiver to the tv. He did that and it worked.
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post #2200 of 2207 Old 04-22-2005, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by EHHoffman
I suppose you could try and use it for that. You likely won't get enough adjustment though. ................--Eric
Thanks for the information. I think I will play with the distance settings. No harm in trying. My thinking was reverse of yours in that shorter distance equated to shorter audio delays.

I have noticed that the audio delays are in consistant from the DirecTV HD PVR. I think is has something to do with the Dolby 5.1 audio.

Have a great day!

AllenN
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post #2201 of 2207 Old 04-22-2005, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by allenn
My thinking was reverse of yours in that shorter distance equated to shorter audio delays.
My thinking was that since it takes longer for sound to travel 16ft then say 5ft, the sound coming form the 5ft speaker would be delayed an amount based on the 16ft setting so the sound from both reaches your ears at the same time. I imagine that the formula for determining what speaker to delay and by how much is a little more complicated then that, but I don't know for sure.

--Eric
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post #2202 of 2207 Old 04-22-2005, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by EHHoffman
My thinking was that since it takes longer for sound to travel 16ft then say 5ft, the sound coming form the 5ft speaker would be delayed an amount based on the 16ft setting so the sound from both reaches your ears at the same time. I imagine that the formula for determining what speaker to delay and by how much is a little more complicated then that, but I don't know for sure. --Eric
Makes sense to me. I will try some testing next time I have a recording on the HD PVR that is out of sync. Thanks for your thoughts.

Have a great day!

AllenN
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post #2203 of 2207 Old 04-22-2005, 10:25 AM
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So here's a possible strategy: You tell the receiver that one speaker that doesn't matter that much for lip sync .. LFE subwoofer, or maybe one of the rear side speakers... is WAAAAAY far away, while the center channel and front L/R speakers are relatively close. The receiver would delay the center channel and front L/R compared to the "wayward" speaker, and help compensate for the TV's video delay. Yeah, the sound from the wayward speaker reaches your ears a little too soon, but it would seem to me that the positive of this strategy (improved lip sync) outweighs the negative.

I wonder what the max distance (i.e., delay compensation) is on most receivers?

Comments?
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post #2204 of 2207 Old 04-25-2005, 04:47 AM
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Not all recorded HD programs have audio that is out of sync with the video. This makes it more challenging to test the various theories as presented in this thread.

Have a great day!

AllenN
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post #2205 of 2207 Old 06-09-2005, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allenn
Not all recorded HD programs have audio that is out of sync with the video. This makes it more challenging to test the various theories as presented in this thread.
Man, after reading 30 or so pages of problems about sync issues with the 5063 I am wondering if I should bail out on the TV while I am still in my 30 day trial period?? I don't want to chase these ghost like everyone else has had to. What to do, What to do?? :confused:

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post #2206 of 2207 Old 06-09-2005, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allenn
Not all recorded HD programs have audio that is out of sync with the video. This makes it more challenging to test the various theories as presented in this thread.
Man, after reading 30 or so pages of problems about sync issues with the 5063 I am wondering if I should bail out on the TV while I am still in my 30 day trial period?? I don't want to chase these ghost like everyone else has had to. What to do, What to do?? :confused:

Russell Owens
SONY KDFE50A10
Onyo Receiver
Onkyo Dual 10" Sub
Infinity Entra 2 12" Sub
CyberHome Dvd w/HDMI
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post #2207 of 2207 Old 06-09-2005, 03:17 PM
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if you notice it then bail. All the new tech tv's seem to have their pros and cons. It comes down to what can you live with!
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