Pioneer Elite Pro-510 problem - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 2941 Old 10-18-2006, 02:31 PM
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Thanks Pam and Transco. Makes me feel better that I know where the problem most likely is. I'm waiting on Pioneer to call me back. I'm wondering if I should just try to get them to install a new board. That way I have new components and can always touch up the solder later if that board goes bad as well instead of trying to touch up the existing board and having some other component on the existing board go bad in the near future?

HMMMM....
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post #632 of 2941 Old 10-18-2006, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keithaxis View Post

when you guys talk soldering iron are you just reheating the current solder to get it to bind back on or are you also adding solder?

One person on this thread said he used a solder sucker and removed all of the old solder before adding new. I didn't go that way because I was afraid I would lift a pad or trace on this cheaply made board (XXXP and 1oz copper is my guess). I simply reflowed the solder that was already there and added a little (60/40) where I felt more was needed. When you inspect your board be sure to have a good light and magnification. I used a bench mount magnifier with ring light. To the naked eye the board looks OK. Under magnification, it has to be the worse soldering job I've seen in my 40+ years in the business. If one of my assemblers handed me a board like this, they'd be fired on the spot.
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post #633 of 2941 Old 10-18-2006, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by keithaxis View Post

is MD/ DE / VA anywhere near Western Washington? the state?

ok, maybe if we consider 3000 miles near...I have the 710 also at over 6 years old now and it could use a tuneup but I don't trust any local guy that does not have recommendations...


I have a brother who lives in Seattle. I would share the travel expenses with you as an equal partner - either singly or as part of a cal tour - to be able to have your assistance in visiting him.


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post #634 of 2941 Old 10-18-2006, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keithaxis View Post

question as I have not really ever soldered much in my 42 years other than my guitar a few times...
when you guys talk soldering iron are you just reheating the current solder to get it to bind back on or are you also adding solder?

Just adding a touch of solder is enough. All you want to do is get the solder abundant, and gleaming and fresh and new again, and adding just a touch of solder gives it that saturation of rosin that it needs, to become new again. And perhaps adding a little when the original joint was/is super thin, with too little solder on it.

When the iron will leave the soldered item without leaving a trail of dried-out solder in its wake, and is shiny and gleaming, it is done. If you hold it on there too long and get it dried out and flat/non-glossy anymore, you have held your iron on there too long and have dried it out. You then have to redo it with a bit more solder. If you have too much solder on there, you should really suck or braid the extra off, so you can see how good a job you have done on each one.

There's a very long post early on in this thread where I cover such issues.


Quote:


guess it is time for me to look at this as it has been happening for two years...


Uh, yeah, just a tad. I wrote about that a few posts ago, in the last page of this thread before this one. Do it now, before anything worse happens. It will NEVER get any better on its own now, and will only continue to get worse, possibly causing substantial damage to your set.


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post #635 of 2941 Old 10-18-2006, 04:32 PM
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I'll just add another success story...

I took the board out and had an engineer friend reflow the solder on all of the connectors and a few of the other components people have mentioned. As with everyone else, the bad +12V on the one connector was the main culprit and he could see it clearly, along with a few others. He also commented, unprompted, on how cheaply-fabricated the board was.

Anyway, I now have a rock solid 510. Thanks to all the folks on this thread who worked out the problem, and especially Mr Bob for huge contributions and actively answering people's questions!

(Oh, and as people have mentioned... clean your optics, it makes a world of difference.)
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post #636 of 2941 Old 10-18-2006, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by transco View Post

One person on this thread said he used a solder sucker and removed all of the old solder before adding new. I didn't go that way because I was afraid I would lift a pad or trace on this cheaply made board (XXXP and 1oz copper is my guess).


This is a very valid concern.

I have had to rebuild parts of boards because the pads lifted, or invisibly separated from their runs. When this happens, you HOPE there's enough indication left to see, for you to repair the board right then and there. If not you have to order the service manual for that schematic and/or board layout and wait for it to get there, before you can make your next move.


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post #637 of 2941 Old 10-18-2006, 08:06 PM
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Do not know if you are still keeping track of the number of Pro-510's that have had this problem and been repaired. But you can add mine to the list.
I read somewhere in this forum that there was a particular location to go to that explains the optics cleaning procedure. Could someone point me in the right direction.
Thanks
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post #638 of 2941 Old 10-21-2006, 06:20 PM
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I had the same 610 problems as many others with the flashing screen working its way to the dim screen. It took me 6 1/2 months, 2 weeks, and 1 day to fix it, with help from a manual off ebay, posts on this site, and posts a year ago and older on another site: ***************

Yes, indeed, it was cold solder joints on the power supply (AWV1795) board. It took 6 1/2 months for the problem to finally go critical (dim screen), 2 weeks before I could put an entire day towards trying to fix it, and 1 day to fix it. When I turned the 610 on at the start of today it was working OK, so I went to check on the prices of new boards (I thought it was the HV/Deflection board). When I found the Pioneer price on the board I googled up AWV1809, looking for a better price, and came up with this and the other forum. I spent half the day reading and printing applicable posts and then got down to work.

I first tried just tapping and poking with an insulated adjustment tool and found that the only thing that set off the problem was pushing on the clump of wires in the upper left of AWV1795. So the first thing I did was pull the connectors, spray them with cleaner, and reconnect. Now I had the LEDs come on, so I knew it was cold solders at those connectors.

I pulled the board and found what I consider to be the worst wave soldering job I have ever seen: most of the solder joints were dull, and many had resin left on them. This is an indication of the waver solderer either not hot enough or the wave moving too fast (most likely the latter). All of the resin should have been burned off and all the joints should be bright.

I believe in "if it ain't broke ...", so I resolder (with new additional resin core solder) all the joint with resin residue (the suspect connector joints had resin under the solder) and all the joints that had any sign of cracking (small circular fissure around the wire or pin). The more soldering the more likely to cause a bridge, so I did only what I considered of immediate need.

It took me about 2 hours to pull the board, resolder and inspect (in iterative process), and re-install. I had no doubt that the problem would be fixed (for now), but I was worried about solder bridges etc. Everything seems to be fine.

I do think that Pioneer owes everone who has had this problem. This is clearly a manufacturing defect that could have been caught with even the most cursory inspection of the board after the soldering. This may be a problem with just one batch of AWV1795s, all batches, and/or possibly all boards in the 610. Like I said, I'm not about to pull all the boards to check now, but I will certainly know where to look for similar problems in the future.

This is the short version of my experience. If anyone wants the very long version including debugging, disassemlby, and solderng tips, and my credentials, I will write it and post it.
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post #639 of 2941 Old 10-22-2006, 08:12 AM
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Just reporting in... my resoldered 610 has been working perfectly for over a week now. The strange thing is, I think it looks better now than it did straight out of the box. Of course that was 6 years ago and I may have forgotten what it originally looked like, but I am certain that it looks better than it did at least a year ago. Even powering up the set is different. Bottom line, if you have any flickering at all, unexplained noise in your speakers, etc., repair it now. It's like getting a new TV.

Recently (before repairing the 610) I've been looking at new TV's... mainly 60" or larger DLP's. I don't know what it is, but the 'depth' and richness of the colors or my repaired 610 looks better than anything I saw on the showroom floor. Of course these sets are adjusted for the 'wow' factor and are badly overdriven, but still the difference is striking. On the other hand, the new sets are sharper, but unless you are using them for computer monitors I don't think this is all that important. I watch mainly movies and the lack of razor sharp edges isn't a problem. My only problem with the 610 is that it lacks 720p. Oh well, I guess you can't have everything.
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post #640 of 2941 Old 10-22-2006, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sborsher View Post

I pulled the board and found what I consider to be the worst wave soldering job I have ever seen: most of the solder joints were dull, and many had resin left on them. This is an indication of the waver solderer either not hot enough or the wave moving too fast (most likely the latter). All of the resin should have been burned off and all the joints should be bright.


I will agree with parts of that. As to the rosin being "burned off", no, that's not how it works. I worked in the board stuffing/correcting dept. of Tektronix in Beaverton Oregon for almost a year back when I was in my twenties, and became intimately familiar with soldering - although I was already expert grade on my own before I joined up - and wave soldering. And board silkscreening, IC fabrication, schematic to board layout design, etcetcetc.

The rosin gets CLEANED off, not burned off. Any time I resolder anything, there is ALWAYS rosin residue afterwards. I could get benzene or some other chemical to clean it off, but see no need to be exposing myself to caustic, breatheably noxious chemicals, like they had at Tek in massive bins with paintbrushes at the ready, for just that purpose. So I leave it there, it does no harm to do so. The only reason they clean it off of oscilloscope grade and studio monitor grade boards is for the look of ultra cleanliness when inspected by buyers. Its presence or lack thereof has no place in the actual working ops of these boards. It can be on there for 20-30 years with absolutely no adverse effects. It does not eat away the solder or cause corrosion. Cleaning it off has its place in certain esoteric areas of marketing, but efficacious repair is not one of them.


Quote:



I believe in "if it ain't broke ...", so I resolder (with new additional resin core solder) all the joint with resin residue (the suspect connector joints had resin under the solder)


Again, I don't think so. If there was resin as part of the solder joint you saw in there, chances are that these joints had been resoldered already at some point in time, since boards that come out of factories in brand new units have all that resin cleaned off already, just as part of the normal manufacturing process. I believe a benzene bath - or whatever chemical they use to clean it off - is the second bath the board takes, after the board's bottom takes the solder bath itself.

Quote:


and all the joints that had any sign of cracking (small circular fissure around the wire or pin).


There will be others you won't even see - see some of my earlier writing on this thread -

Quote:


The more soldering the more likely to cause a bridge, so I did only what I considered of immediate need.

I will certainly agree with you on THAT one! Even tho I brave that now anyway, on each of these boards that I repair on my own.

Quote:



It took me about 2 hours to pull the board, resolder and inspect (in iterative process), and re-install. I had no doubt that the problem would be fixed (for now), but I was worried about solder bridges etc. Everything seems to be fine.


So glad you were able to make out!





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post #641 of 2941 Old 10-22-2006, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by transco View Post

Just reporting in... my resoldered 610 has been working perfectly for over a week now. The strange thing is, I think it looks better now than it did straight out of the box. Of course that was 6 years ago and I may have forgotten what it originally looked like, but I am certain that it looks better than it did at least a year ago. Even powering up the set is different. Bottom line, if you have any flickering at all, unexplained noise in your speakers, etc., repair it now. It's like getting a new TV.


You want to go the extra mile and see what she can REALLY look like, do both the optics and deeper optics cleaning ops. It's like night and day. Like seeing the murky underwater scenes in Finding Nemo vs. the brilliant, ultra-bright out of water scenes later on in the movie.

As I have said before, EVERY 510/610/710 I have done in the past 3 years has needed BOTH ops, on every color.

This also goes for the x20 series, and probably the x30 series, tho I have not done enough of them to have kept aware of the trend, on those.


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post #642 of 2941 Old 10-22-2006, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

You want to go the extra mile and see what she can REALLY look like, do both the optics and deeper optics cleaning ops. It's like night and day. Like seeing the murky underwater scenes in Finding Nemo vs. the brilliant, ultra-bright out of water scenes later on in the movie.

Mr Bob

Thanks for the tip. I've never cleaned mine in the 6 years I've owned it. My service manual doesn't go into much detail on cleaning so any tips you have on accessing the optics, cleaning procedures, etc. would be appreciated.

(As to the 'rosin' discussion, HP used to intentionally leave rosin on equipment that was to be shipped over or used on the sea as an anti-corrosive. The only problem was it made it difficult to inspect and poor solder joints could be hiding under the rosin. Personally, I never clean rosin off of boards I work on, nor did I expect those doing rework to clean the rosin off of boards they hand soldered. As to wave soldering (actually reflow soldering), we used a slightly corrosive clear liquid flux because it was faster and would clean contaminated leads, etc. Of course this was washed off as the boards proceeded through the machine.)
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post #643 of 2941 Old 10-22-2006, 01:26 PM
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Mr. Bob,

Sorry, gotta disagree with most of your response to my previous post. The rosin (sic resin, also used debugging instead of troubleshooting) can act as an insulator. On most of the larger solder joints, like the rectifier legs the rosin was stiil under the solder. Yes, it won't burn off the board, but the solder should displace it during the wave soldering. Maybe they just used too much rosin, but then all the joints were cold too. I should have taken a picture of the mess before I fixed it, but even now there is plenty of rosin on the board. When I resoldered it I gave the joints enough heat to displace the rosin. Since no one asked (although its only been a day) for the extended version of my repair story, I will tell you here what I had to do in resoldering the board. FYI, although I am no longer in the service biz, I still hold a Master Technician License in MA. And when I was in the biz, I wrote several individual repair instruction papers for the majors (Pioneer might have been one of them) on problems they were unaware of or had no fix for themselves. One of them was on poor solder joints from wave soldering, especially on thru-hole, 2 sided-boards, and another later and similarly on SMT. I also wrote a couple repair instruction papers on identifying and repairing problems caused by semiconducter device intermittency. I would probably never try to tackle digital repair in the 610 (I originally thought this problem was maybe a noisy AGC trimpot until I got the manual), but this stuff was right up my alley.

If you want to see it, I can pull the board out again since its only hanging in there by a couple screws (I want it to vibrate in place to make sure there are no other bad joints) pending a week of testing before I do a full clean and recal. BTW, my 610 never looked bad except during the lbrightness increase (or contrast decrease) phase of the flashing. I had extended warranty up until last Oct (of course I never had a problem until after it expired) and had it cleaned and checked every year under that policy, although I did most of the fine tuning myself. I think most of the people who say their X10 looked like new again after the fix probably had one or more persistent poor connections because of the cold solder. And, yes, after 6+ years, it still looks better than anything else on the market, except maybe some high end plasmas which I wouldn't want anyway, but especially DLPs. I have bought a couple SOTA medium size LCDs in the past couple years, but the 610 still beats them.

Here's what I had to do to fix the board:

1. I went after the small joints with obvious rosin residue, making sure that it was all forced out from under the solder.

2. I went for small joints that were obviously cracked, those with a near circular fissure around the lead/pin.

3. I switched from a Weller PTB7 to a PTD7 and attacked the larger joints in the same way. Many of the questionable joints were heat sink pins and I wanted to stabilize those, as many of the joints of the semi pins associated with those sinks were cracked. One of the regulators has a black sink that is not soldered in, although it is sorta siliconed in, and can still move quite a bit. Those leg joints were all cracked. The transformer in the center of the board and the large rectifier assy were also in bad shape. In fact, I could not get the rectifier lead joints to flow at all, so the rosin underneath would not bubble out; in that case and in a handful of other joints, large and small, I had to scrape away the mask to get better solder purchase on new copper. One pad even lifted off the board and I had to put in a jumper. This is a CHEAP and POORLY MADE board for such a high end device.

4. I scrubbed the board with a coarse toothbursh, blasted the board with compressed air, and started an iterative process of inspecting for bridges and stray solder dots (the excess rosin would bubble and pop sometimes, sending solder bits across the board), fix more joints, clean, and inspect. If Pioneer had done 1% of the inspection I did I never would have had to do any, as they never would have released those boards. And those boards were NOT previously resoldered by anyone; if I'm worng about that then releasing a board that looked like this one would be criminal, as some human must have looked at it at some point.

I am going to contact Pioneer service directly about this situation and ask if they will consider giving me an extended warranty to cover any future problems such as this. Every board in the set could be in the same shape as the power supply board! I was lucky; people in other posts I read, especially a Doug who first tried to fix the board by resoldering, then had it replaced, then had to replace one of his CRTs, spent a lot of time and money on problems which all stemmed from these CHEAP and POORLY MADE power supply boards. Some people even had to have the board replaced more than once, indicating that even some of the replacement boards are the same. And some people have had the problem with the newer version of the board, indicating that this wave soldering problem was not limited to one batch of boards.

Class action suit anyone?
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post #644 of 2941 Old 10-22-2006, 03:37 PM
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I will contact the service now to get it fixed. Thanks Bob.

I didn't call the service to fix my 510HD's PS board problems (changed mind) in stead I re-soldered it myself. I did most of them and the set is so far so good. Indeed, the view is much better than before. I don't remember how good it was when the set was bought but it definitely met my criteria. I really want to thanks anyone who contributed to the thread and I want to do something to anyone else. I have taken some pictures during the process and load into the laptop, so I can track them back incase I forgot the positions. The pictures include: Backboard, PS Board, White connectors, White connectors disconnected-1, White connectors disconnected-2, PS board disassembled (circuit board). All images less around 700kb, except circuit board one is 2.44mb. If anyone wants those pictures, you can go to my PM.

John
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post #645 of 2941 Old 10-22-2006, 05:24 PM
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JCBM,

Glad you had good luck with your board. I resoldered everything that looked suspicious because flexing the board while taking it in and out and working on it (I put it on a bed of packing peanuts in a shallow carton top to keep it level and relatively unstrained) could make any previous weak joint become intermittent.

I would like to see your pix to see if your board is/was anywhere near as bad as mine. I read many posts of people who resoldered their boards only to have the problem come back. My thinking is that many different intermittent joints on that board can cause similar symptoms. If I see anything else suspicious on your board I will let you know so you can do a little more preventive maintenance. So how do I get those pix? What did you mean by PM?

FYI and others, I did not take any pictures because I determined that there was no ambiguity among the cables and connectors. Also, there are 13 plain black screws, 2 black pan head, and one brass holding the board in. The brass screw goes into the transformer base in the middle of the board, the pan heads hold the cable clips. There are no pads on the board that need to contact the mounting bracket, so you can just hang it in there with 3 screws for testing purposes. The worst thing about the screws is that if you drop one it will probably go down through the ventilation holes in the base. I put some ever useful duct tape over those holes.

One very important warning I will give is that you should have a lot of experience soldering, a good temperature controlled solder station, and the right tips before attempting this. If your board is as bad as mine, you will need a lot of heat to flow the new solder and displace the rosin and the proper technique to not overheat any of the components in the process You may also need a solder sucker and/or desoldering braid to remove the solder completely from any pad where the solder won't flow, so you can scrape off some solder mask and expose some new copper.

Anyone who wants to send me a pic of the board for analysis or even the board for resoldering let me know. I might do the board for $50 depending on the severity, but no guarantees of course. My suggestion is that you call Pioneer and complain about the problem before you do anything else, citing the number of people who have had made posts about this problem and even referencing my specific descriptions if you like. As I said previously, I will be contacting them myself tomorrow looking for an extended warranty. I don't think I even want a new board from them.
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post #646 of 2941 Old 10-22-2006, 08:36 PM
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[quote=sborsher]JCBM,

So how do I get those pix? What did you mean by PM?

Due to the Forum's policy for spam protection, I couldn't post my email address to the thread. You can click on my screen name JCBM and choose Send a private message (PM) to JCBM, leave your email address in there, and I'll send you the pix back. But I'm not sure the resolution is high enough for your purpose. Hopefully you can get some idea though.


John
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post #647 of 2941 Old 10-22-2006, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sborsher View Post

Mr. Bob,

Sorry, gotta disagree with most of your response to my previous post. The rosin (sic resin, also used debugging instead of troubleshooting) can act as an insulator. On most of the larger solder joints, like the rectifier legs the rosin was stiil under the solder. Yes, it won't burn off the board, but the solder should displace it during the wave soldering. Maybe they just used too much rosin, but then all the joints were cold too. I should have taken a picture of the mess before I fixed it, but even now there is plenty of rosin on the board. When I resoldered it I gave the joints enough heat to displace the rosin.


Rosin is in the solder itself, I believe in a 60/40 mix for electronic soldering. It is not displaced from under the solder when a pad is soldered. It is not on the pad UNTIL the pad is hit with the 60/40 solder wire itself, and the solder wire comes from off-pad.

Masking is on the pad IF they have elected to make sure that pad does NOT get any solder. Otherwise the pad is left pure copper by the silkscreening process, so that the solder in the wave machine will bond correctly to it and the leg going thru it.

Corrosion is a different story, and we are in total agreement about how to handle that - scraping it off to get to good copper again.




Quote:


If you want to see it, I can pull the board out again since its only hanging in there by a couple screws (I want it to vibrate in place to make sure there are no other bad joints) pending a week of testing before I do a full clean and recal. BTW, my 610 never looked bad except during the lbrightness increase (or contrast decrease) phase of the flashing. I had extended warranty up until last Oct (of course I never had a problem until after it expired) and had it cleaned and checked every year under that policy, although I did most of the fine tuning myself.

I am surprised to hear that they actually DID do optics cleaning for you on an ESP. Most of the promises I have heard about re. such things never came to pass when the rubber hit the road. My brother bought an RCA 46" from Fry's before HD, and during their selling they rattled off to him the same promise, which was never kept. 3 years down the line when I did it for him, he was amazed at the difference it made, and said so.

However, I am quite confident that NONE of them, even the ones who are keeping their promises about cleaning, are going to go in there and clean under the lenses at the coolant covers and the lens rears, what I call the "deeper optics" cleaning. ALL of the x10 line is in need of that by now, and while it is elective right now on the x30 line, in a couple of years ALL of them will need it also, if they have the same lens design as the x10 series, with the same relatively huge air gaps under each lens, where the dust creeps in, drawn by the ionization caused by the HV.


Quote:


I think most of the people who say their X10 looked like new again after the fix probably had one or more persistent poor connections because of the cold solder.

I am assuming that you you mean that they had poor connections from day one, when they opened up their brand new unit and set it up and watched it for the first time?


Quote:


And, yes, after 6+ years, it still looks better than anything else on the market, except maybe some high end plasmas which I wouldn't want anyway, but especially DLPs. I have bought a couple SOTA medium size LCDs in the past couple years, but the 610 still beats them.

Yup. In spades!



Quote:


Here's what I had to do to fix the board:

1. I went after the small joints with obvious rosin residue, making sure that it was all forced out from under the solder.

2. I went for small joints that were obviously cracked, those with a near circular fissure around the lead/pin.

3. I switched from a Weller PTB7 to a PTD7 and attacked the larger joints in the same way. Many of the questionable joints were heat sink pins and I wanted to stabilize those, as many of the joints of the semi pins associated with those sinks were cracked. One of the regulators has a black sink that is not soldered in, although it is sorta siliconed in, and can still move quite a bit. Those leg joints were all cracked. The transformer in the center of the board and the large rectifier assy were also in bad shape. In fact, I could not get the rectifier lead joints to flow at all, so the rosin underneath would not bubble out;

This reference to "bubbling out from under" the joints is lost on me. Rosin is not beneath the joint, it comes from the solder itself. I have never seen rosin be "in between" the upper and lower halves of a joint. I have never seen upper and lower halves of a joint, and do not know how to identify with this. My observation of soldering, from soldering for the past 20 years plus, is that solder is a molten lava that flows between 2 metal things whose surface tension attracts it and places it properly in between them, as long as the temp is kept in the correct range and the process does not take too long - if it takes too long, that causes the joint to dry out and the rosin to eventually vaporize and evaporate, leaving the joint no longer remaining gleaming, as it should be.

Masking may bubble out from under a joint, if there is some that was inappropriately placed there during design. But rosin is not under a joint, to bubble out from under it. It comes from the solder wire itself, which is applied with the hand that is not holding the soldering iron. I see no way for there to be an upper and lower half to a solder joint, with rosin in between. There's just the joint itself, and the only separation I have ever seen is on really old-looking joints, when the solder in a joint is so dried out that a hole happens when the iron touches it, before the new solder hits it. This is what I see on these Pio Elite PS boards, and they are not old!

Quote:


in that case and in a handful of other joints, large and small, I had to scrape away the mask to get better solder purchase on new copper. One pad even lifted off the board and I had to put in a jumper. This is a CHEAP and POORLY MADE board for such a high end device.


I don't bother with the legs of the heat sinks themselves, which are soldered in but lead nowhere, and as such are strictly structural. Since they are made of very rugged and thick metal, they can get extremely hot but don't flex at all. I don't believe their heating will flex them anywhere near enough to affect the leads of the devices attached to them. Sure, they have cold solder joints on them, because they do the most dynamic heating and cooling in the unit - translating to expansion/contraction, every time the board heats up and cools down. But they were still structurally sound, even with cold solder joints (except the ones where there was no solder left on them between them and the pad at all!) I do one side of them just on principle, but don't prioritize their electronic connectivity aspects at all, since they go nowhere and connect nothing to anything.

But I do always do the screw that is soldered to the board, just because for some reason they did. Possibly RF considerations. And because I found once that that was the ONLY thing that solved the problem after being the ONLY thing left to resolder on an older SD Pioneer, after 3 visits, where it would work fine every time I left, but would crap out later. Resoldering that screw after tightening it with a Philips while the solder was molten was the last thing done, before I finally stopped receiving repeat calls on it.


I agree completely with pretty much all of the rest of what you said.

Quote:


Class action suit anyone?


Not the first time this has been mentioned in this thread!


I am still puzzled by how this has happened on JUST the PS boards of these Pioneer Elites. I have studied the deflection and convergence boards on x10s whenever I have been called upon to do so, and this thin/dried-out/dull-looking solder joint problem is not there. Only on the PS boards.


I am hoping your experience can add new light on the genesis of this problem, because at this point, I am still at a major loss as to how it originally happened. What the causes were that eventually led to this screamin' number of failures, all in the same areas and exhibiting the same results - steady deterioration of the connections, eventually leading to non-connection at some really critical point and resultant unit shut-down.

I really value your electronic technical experience, and your willingness to step up here and be counted. I especially like your observations about temp and duration of immersion, re. the wave solder machine, which I had not thought of.


Mr Bob

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post #648 of 2941 Old 10-22-2006, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by transco View Post

Thanks for the tip. I've never cleaned mine in the 6 years I've owned it. My service manual doesn't go into much detail on cleaning so any tips you have on accessing the optics, cleaning procedures, etc. would be appreciated.


Here's some stuff I've been writing thru the years, from my archives:


My optics cleaning technique is to suspend ALL the gritty particulates that have built up over the years in liquid before attempting to do ANYTHING with them. Lenses are usually made of plastic, and are extremely susceptible to being scratched. Even glass lenses can be scratched.

High voltage attracts the smallest of particulates to your optics, including smoke, and it is VERY IMPORTANT not to scratch your optics.

It is also important not to allow any of the liquid to go down into the space between the edge of the lens and the lens barrel. If it does, it will cause the inner lenses to fog up. There are usually 4 lenses in a stack, in each lens pack. 3 guesses as to why I know that...

So when you send your spray to the optics, you DIVE, DIVE, DIVE with your aborbent material to the lowest part of the lens surface, to make sure that doesn't happen - that the liquid doesn't penetrate to the lower levels of the stack, to the inner lenses.

The best stuff I've found for wetting the surface is an aerosol called Sprayway, because it foams up and doesn't run. I usually use non-ammoniated Windex, or Glass Plus, and very very carefully. Non-ammoniated because of the first surface mirrors used in HDreadys. Don't want to be mixing aluminum with ammonia.

Once the mist has penetrated the contaminants and lifted the grit off the surface, a careful swipe in one direction only will get the critical mass of grit off the surface, to one side of the lens. A rolling motion as you do so, like a streetsweeper, is best and will very cleanly remove the bad stuff.

Usually takes several very careful swipes, all in the same direction, to gather and remove all the particulates - and you're done. Then one more very light cleaning swipe -

It is better to leave trace streaks than to rub till the surface is clean. Rubbing is VERBOTEN! Doing so will "scuff" the plastic with thousands of permanent streaks, which you will then rub harder and harder only to find out they don't come out, and you've just exacerbated the situation gravely. 3 guesses as to how I found out about THAT one...


As such, no I don't think these things are the thing to use, unless and until the surface is 99% clean already. I use pure wood fiber paper towels - not shop towels, which contain lanolin and will NEVER get your mirror clean - and the wetting materials mentioned above. On the outer lenses, the mirror, and the inner CRT coolant covers, where you remove the lenses to get to them.

This method has been doing it for me - and very pristinely - for years and years and years.

It's all in the wrist.


Later:


Some further notes -


When you check ANY of the optics for contaminants, shoot your flashlight at the lens surface FROM THE SIDE. It never looks that bad when you hit it head-on - but Lordy, when you shoot it from the side, MAN, that's dirty...

I usually do just a quick bump from the back of one of my fingers - no more than 3/8" long - to the surface of a mirror, lens etc, just to see if that bump turns clear black, in the middle of the gray dust. If it is dirty, it does. If not - if that surface was black and remains black after bumping it with the back of my finger - I may just leave that surface alone.

On the lenses facing up, often to make my point in front of the client, I wet one finger - don't want to DRYRUB any gritty particulates - and draw a happy face in the middle. Viewed from the front at an oblique angle, with the flashlight hitting it from the side, that usually does the trick, when that happy face jumps off the surface at you, revealing how clear your optics are SUPPOSED to be...


If you are removing and going under the lenses, be sure and check the rear surface of the lens pack - the one the becomes exposed when you remove the lenspack, whose surface faces the CRT. It is usually full of smoke, and responds the same way to the "touch" test mentioned above.

When you shoot the Windex in there, be sure and clean the outer surfaces of overspray, before cleaning the lens itself. If you don't - if you just leave it - its moisture is trapped and will eventually fog everything up in there, after you have put things back together.

3 guesses as to how I found out about THAT one...

If you do it after cleaning the surfaces in question, more lint - and other new contaminants - fall onto the surface you just cleaned, than if it is the other way around.


I have found that the actual coolant covers themselves are usually plastic, tho I have seen glass ones - very expensive to do it that way - on Runcos and Pioneer Elites. You can tell by looking at the edge. If it is plastic, you won't really see that edge, it will be inside where the coolant is and not available to your view.

If it is glass, you will see the curvature end, and straight flat glass will go to the edge of the circular chamber, usually just over 1/4" in all directions.


I just completed this protocol on a 6 year old Runco 770 at Harbin Hot Springs last week, and a 9 year old Pioneer PRO-119 last night in Redwood City. The Runco had VERY thick dust on the entire lower half of its glass coolant cover, and its keeper couldn't get over how distinct and impressivethe colors had become, later.

The response from the Elite owners was that they had NEVER seen it look that good, even when new. At 9 years old...


Naturally, the rest of my calibration protocol was also applied in each case, after hours of fine precision work.

But the importance of the light path remaining clear as glass in a projection system cannot be stated strongly enough. There are MANY surfaces to deal with in a projection environment, NONE of which exist in a directview environment. EACH of those surfaces needs its own individual attention.

Especially in the face of the high voltage of the CRTs, which always wants to cause floating airborne contaminants to cling to nearby surfaces over time, hour after hour - multiplied by hundreds of hours of use over time - PER YEAR!

This is definitely an op that cannot be left to chance.


Mr Bob

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post #649 of 2941 Old 10-23-2006, 07:05 AM
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I'm just waiting for someone to complain that this thread is 'off-topic'. Actually the there is a wealth of information here from people with years experience 'in the business' and should be of value to everyone, especially those 'not in the business'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

I use pure wood fiber paper towels - not shop towels, which contain lanolin and will NEVER get your mirror clean - and the wetting materials mentioned above.
Mr Bob

I'm not one to argue with success, but I have to disagree with you here. Certainly never use shop towels for the reason you gave. However, since my early days in the lab it has been pounded into me to never use paper towels, Kleenex, etc. for cleaning fine optics. It is also the mantra taught to photographers from the very beginning. All you have to do is look at them under a microscope to see why. The wood fibers have rough surfaces that can scratch the optics, especially coated optics. In the old days we used lint free cotton fiber lens paper which has been replace now with the microfiber cleaning clothes. One especially nice feature of this material is that, even dry, they will lift off grease from the lens surface, rather than spreading it around as did the old lens tissue. For photographic lenses, I always use canned air to blow away the loose (and often abrasive) particles, then the microfiber cleaning cloth. I never use lens cleaning solution unless it is absolutely necessary. I nearly destroyed a $600 lens with that stuff. As you said, it ran down inside the lens barrel and then on to cemented surface of the lens. The cement then crystallized leaving what looked like snowflakes in the lens. I cost me $200 to have the lens disassembled and re-cemented.

As a side note on PC board soldering... most through-hole PCB's are solder coated at the factory as part of the manufacturing process. This make is a heck of a lot easier to solder the boards after component insertion. Bare copper corrodes very quickly. Solder coating the board prevents this and allows the end manufacturer to use less heat and non-corrosive flux during the final soldering process.
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post #650 of 2941 Old 10-23-2006, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by transco View Post

I'm just waiting for someone to complain that this thread is 'off-topic'. Actually the there is a wealth of information here from people with years experience 'in the business' and should be of value to everyone, especially those 'not in the business'.



I'm not one to argue with success, but I have to disagree with you here. Certainly never use shop towels for the reason you gave. However, since my early days in the lab it has been pounded into me to never use paper towels, Kleenex, etc. for cleaning fine optics. It is also the mantra taught to photographers from the very beginning. All you have to do is look at them under a microscope to see why. The wood fibers have rough surfaces that can scratch the optics, especially coated optics. In the old days we used lint free cotton fiber lens paper which has been replace now with the microfiber cleaning clothes.

I applaud your attention to detail and sensitivity to the surface of fine optics.

My experience has been that every time I have tried to use some special fibre cloth or paper handed to me by an owner with the same concerns you have put out here, it leaves streaks and residue. Every time, I have gone back to using pure but wet/semi-wet paper towels, which do not. When wet, the roughness of the fibres in pure wood fibre paper towels is softened beyond measure and they are completely limp and non-abrasive.

I haven't read what I submitted for awhile, and perhaps I left out HOW I use them. ONE pass on one part of the lens, another pass at another part of the lens, always going from one end of the pass to the other, usually down to up, with NO back and forth movement. After 3-4 SINGLE passes I am complete, and then I BREATHE on the lens and do the same thing again, before the steam from my mouth that gathers there on the surface has a chance to dry, removing the last of any residue left from my cleaning solution.

I NEVER do any of this on a DRY surface! That's where the scratching will occur. I NEVER RUB a lens surface back and forth to "polish" it (tho I do on the mirror, many many times). Many years ago I did on a lens, back and forth and back and forth, trying to get those stubborn streaks in the plastic I had just noticed to go away, and they did go away, every time - while wet. Just until they dried a second or 2 later, then the streaks were back. Thousands of them. It was on an old, cheap 40" RCA SD, and was so off on all its other parameters - which they had no intention of spending any money on to remedy - that they never noticed anything but a positive difference, and DVD was not even around yet, for picture clarity. What I HAD done - the optics cleaning process - even tho in its infancy was very effective in producing a marked improvement in eradicating the former bleariness and cloudiness of their former picture, and they were very happy. But it was a learning experience for me - a real wake-up call that I never again repeated with ANY other optics, HD or otherwise.

Just one gentle but thorough rub on an essentially wet surface, wiping AWAY from the direction you're headed - like a streetsweeper - usually down to up, and let it dry itself to the air as I go to the next pass. This causes the dirt - all the gritty particulates - to be swept OFF the lens with each pass, rather than to be ground down into its surface.

Quote:


One especially nice feature of this material is that, even dry, they will lift off grease from the lens surface, rather than spreading it around as did the old lens tissue.


Again, no spreading around of ANYTHING is allowed in my cleaning techniques for lenses. After the cleaning solution has done its job, there is no grease on that surface anymore.

Quote:


For photographic lenses, I always use canned air to blow away the loose (and often abrasive) particles, then the microfiber cleaning cloth. I never use lens cleaning solution unless it is absolutely necessary.


CRT lenses MUST have some sort of WET cleaning solution used in the process. You can't get dried-on gritty particulates off without damage, in any type of dry cleaning situation, in CRT lenses, be they plastic or glass. Aside from just delicately dusting it with a soft brush, which will work for the first year or 2 and after that, that stuff that has been drawn to the surface constantly via the HV, is on to stay. The gritty particulates MUST be suspended in liquid of some type or nature - foam or spray - BEFORE they are moved, on the surface of that lens.

Remember, we are not talking about the lenses of completely passive optics like telescopes, microscopes or binocs. We are talking about surfaces that are exposed to HV, whose ionization process turns the optics into powerful dust magnets, attracting dust and dirt and smoke every microsecond the set is powered up. Read some of the Nuts and Bolts section of my website for further information on this. Left passive, this optics cleaning process would never be necessitated. But the 30KV of high voltage in there, inherent to the operation of the CRT process, changes EVERYTHING.

Quote:


I nearly destroyed a $600 lens with that stuff. As you said, it ran down inside the lens barrel and then on to cemented surface of the lens. The cement then crystallized leaving what looked like snowflakes in the lens. I cost me $200 to have the lens disassembled and re-cemented.


I was lucky on that one. It only took me one time of tilting the spray can to a D45 angle and having liquid from inside the aerosol can hit the lens, for me to swear off air spraying permanently. A soft photo or cosmsetics brush is the best way to get lint and dust off the surface, if it is ready to come off. Again, after 2 years or more, it will not be.

You are free to use whatever cleaning solution you like. I have been using my methods for over 20 years, with no adverse effects. It is tried and true. Of course I am sure yours is also.


Quote:


As a side note on PC board soldering... most through-hole PCB's are solder coated at the factory as part of the manufacturing process. This make is a heck of a lot easier to solder the boards after component insertion. Bare copper corrodes very quickly. Solder coating the board prevents this and allows the end manufacturer to use less heat and non-corrosive flux during the final soldering process.

Great if you can get solder thin enough to do that. The feed-thrus I have seen on ECBs are way too small to still stay holes; they get filled up with solder immediately, with no room for the legs of ANY component I have ever seen.

But maybe there is such a thin solder, tho I have never seen or heard of it. I have always wondered if part of the reason these Pio PS boards are failing years down the line is because they used solder that was way too thin, out of the starting gate.


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post #651 of 2941 Old 10-23-2006, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Rosin is in the solder itself, I believe in a 60/40 mix for electronic soldering. It is not displaced from under the solder when a pad is soldered. It is not on the pad UNTIL the pad is hit with the 60/40 solder wire itself, and the solder wire comes from off-pad.

Masking is on the pad IF they have elected to make sure that pad does NOT get any solder. Otherwise the pad is left pure copper by the silkscreening process, so that the solder in the wave machine will bond correctly to it and the leg going thru it.

Corrosion is a different story, and we are in total agreement about how to handle that - scraping it off to get to good copper again.
Mr Bob

I will concede your more extensive knowledge of wave soldering, although I did work for a couple cos in the computer industry that had those and SMT. As I remember the flux (rosin) was applied to the board prior to the wave soldering. In the case of my board, the solder was not hot enough, or the wave moved too fast, or there was just to much flux, so that there was flux actually left under the solder. Here is one example of it from my board. I think it was the large rectifier, but it was definitley one of the larger devices, one that I had to scrape to get more copper available. When I first resoldered that one, the solder, rather than flowing out to the pad flowed down the legs of the device. The flux left under the joint from the wave solderer actually blocked the solder from flowing to the pad. Those joints still exhibit the problem in maybe half of the joint now because I also (as you had mentioned before) did not want to go through the process of removing the flux and I didn't want to overheat it trying to force out the flux. Instead, I made sure I had enough new copper in one area of the joint to make up for the possible loss in another area.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

I am surprised to hear that they actually DID do optics cleaning for you on an ESP...
Mr Bob

Of course they didn't, but they did open her up, dust her out, adjust the focus, and do some factory level stuff. I always did the convergence, and have also tinkered with the other mentioned settings myself having watched what they did very closely. I would be glad to pay you for instructions on doing what you do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

I am assuming that you you mean that they had poor connections from day one, when they opened up their brand new unit and set it up and watched it for the first time?
Mr Bob

No, I mean that over time one particular connection degraded, probably from corrosion as you mentioned, so that, I don't know which was the actual case, the brightness slowly increased or the contrast slowly decreased so that the picture became washed out over time. In the early stages of my problem that is how it looked to me. The picture would be fine, then it would go to that washed out state over a period of a few minutes, then it would snap back to normal. Mine never stayed in the washed out state for long, but I can understand how others might have.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

This reference to "bubbling out from under" the joints is lost on me...
Mr Bob

As I said above, I believe that the flux is applied before the wave soldering ... And, yes, I had several of the joints you described where the hole opens up as soon as you touch it. What that means is that the solder was not adhering to the lead or pin; the connection was purely mechanical, probably in this case because there was NO flux there. Seems improbable that some places would have too much flux and others none, but looks that way to me, and I usually try to go with the most logical, if somewhat far fetched, explanation. Now I think that the problem may not be so much with the wave soldering itself but with the flux application. Also, as improbable as it seems, I found the screw joints to be some of the best on the board and did not touch them.

One other thing to mention vis-a-vis the flux. As I said in another post I had 100% correlation between pushing on the connector wires and intermittancy, and no other source of intermittancy, so, in my case, it was definitely and only bad joints at the cable connectors (also like I said in another post any number of poor connections on the board could probably cause the same symptoms). When I inspected the joints on the two suspect connectors, they had no cracked joints, only flux left on, and possible below, the joint. When I heated those joints and applied the new solder, the new soldered force out the old flux so that the old flux was now surrounding the joint instead of in or under it. As you mentioned before leaving the flux on the board, away from the joint, is not a problem since it is not conductive.

As far as the heat sinks, I want them as rigid as possible. One of the early problems with epoxy encased semis that I identified was on the venerable 2SC1061 xst used as an audio output amp. Those would heat up and I guess the epoxy would expand and somewhere between the leg and the chip the connection would break. The same problem occured on the early MSI output amp ICs. I guess by now they mostly have fixed that problem; I mean it has been some 30 years since then, but I do want those heat sinks rigid so there is no flexing of those legs relative to the joints or the casing. The soldering problems I identified were also around the same time, but I guess there is more potential variability even now in wave soldering, especially if the machine is not set up properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

I am still puzzled by how this has happened on JUST the PS boards of these Pioneer Elites...
Mr Bob

In summary of all I have previously said, I can only surmise that it was a problem with the wave soldering machine and/or flux application. Obviously, they did a substantial run with that improper setup. What I don't understand is why new boards would have the same problem; did they do only one run for all time or did they not check the setup on that machine in subsequent runs? Also, hard to believe that they would not have done other boards on that machine that would exhibit the same problems, but I am glad to hear that you have checked other boards in the X10s have not not seen these problems; or has it just shown up on the PS boards because of all the heat generated and because they are mounted vertically so the heat sweeps up the entire board? Also, I'm fairly certain that I read in one of the threads that I looked at that the same problem has occurred with the newer version of the PS board. If that's true then that's really sad, because they probably redesigned the board to fix the very problem we are discussing but missed the real cause, then soldered it on the same mis-calibrated machine.

Is all that really possible? Hey, one of the reasons I ever got into fixing things like cars, electronics, whatever, is that no one else seems to be able to fix (at least not reliably and/or to my even minimal satisfaction) most of the problems that I experience; not drs, not techs, not auto. I suppose I am still a bit of a perfectionist (not nearly as bad as when I was younger), however now I have zero tolerance for being patronized and/or stonewalled especially. Too old now to put up with that crap; there's always another place to go where you might find some respect.

I'm going to start in with Pioneer right now. This should be very interesting. They have a lot to lose by not stepping up on this problem. Me for one. Much of my main system is Pioneer. I already gave them a pass on an upgrade that was supposed to be available for my DV-37 to fix a freezing problem on drill downs on a certain type of DVD. The player was in the shop for 3 weeks while they tried ROM (I guess) after ROM that Pioneer sent them and they finally had to give up and put it back the way it was. I hope that ROM was a plug in; if not, I can't imagine (or maybe I can) what that board must look like.

TBC ...
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post #652 of 2941 Old 10-23-2006, 11:22 AM
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This is going to look like a reply to myself (unless someone slips in between), but it is to several things I did not read prior to my previous post (or maybe they slipped in between).

Re lenses:

FWIW, I just bought a new pair of Serengeti Aviators, my sunglass of choice for many years, and this pair came with a recommendation I had never seen before which probably applies to all lenses: always wash with clean water first to remove any abrasive particles. I had never thought of that before. I always use those microfiber cloths for cleaning all lenses, glasses, camera, etc. and a squeeze bottle duster. What now? Easy to wash the sunglasses, but ...

Typically, I always start with a feather duster (of sorts) in cleaning the TV lenses to wisk off the dust. I had a Sony coffee table type projector for 20 years before getting the 610 and regulary cleaned those external lenses, first feather dusting, then cleaning with "plastic" cleaner, then polishing with microfiber (when it became available, cheesecloth before that). Never a scratch! Cheesecloth is good for polishing because it allows any stray particles to get trapped in the mesh, rather than be ground into the lens, but microfiber gives the best result.


Re thru hole:

Another early PCB problem I Identified was with thru-hole. Early boards used a metal cylinder (tinned copper or just tin?) just the thickness of the board in the hole to conduct from one side to the other. Talk about building in future problems. The joints to those cylinders would crack in a very short period of time due to vibration and thermal expansion/contraction. The fix back then was to put a small piece of wire through the whole and solder on both sides (duh). Later the industry figured out how to copper plate continuously right through the hole, no solder required.


Re off topic:

Nothing is off topic if it helps someone. Finding this and the other older thread about the X10 PS problem saved me soooo much time (and probably money). True serendipity; as I mentioned before I found the threads when I googled up the Deflection board part number, looking for a better price than from Pioneer.
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post #653 of 2941 Old 10-23-2006, 11:23 AM
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I will concede your more extensive knowledge of wave soldering, although I did work for a couple cos in the computer industry that had those and SMT. As I remember the flux (rosin) was applied to the board prior to the wave soldering.


That makes total sense, hadn't thought of that.


Quote:


In the case of my board, the solder was not hot enough, or the wave moved too fast, or there was just to much flux, so that there was flux actually left under the solder. Here is one example of it from my board. I think it was the large rectifier, but it was definitley one of the larger devices, one that I had to scrape to get more copper available. When I first resoldered that one, the solder, rather than flowing out to the pad flowed down the legs of the device. The flux left under the joint from the wave solderer actually blocked the solder from flowing to the pad.


How can that be? Rosin is what causes the solder to flow easily and thoroughly. Without it, or if we heat it up too long and it dries out, we wind up with dried-out conn's that have to be redone immediately.


Quote:


Those joints still exhibit the problem in maybe half of the joint now because I also (as you had mentioned before) did not want to go through the process of removing the flux and I didn't want to overheat it trying to force out the flux. Instead, I made sure I had enough new copper in one area of the joint to make up for the possible loss in another area.


So the pad has been permanently damaged, permeated by now really really old rosin, and new copper has to be found to solder to?





Quote:


I would be glad to pay you for instructions on doing what you do.

I charge $85/hr for phone consultation - with a one hour minimum, payable to my account at www.paypal.com. Account number is my email address, below. You are free to record the conversation for future reference. If we do not use up the entire hour on our first chat, you can use up the remainder of that hour at any time in the future.

Contact me directly and we'll set up a time.


Quote:


As I said above, I believe that the flux is applied before the wave soldering ... And, yes, I had several of the joints you described where the hole opens up as soon as you touch it. What that means is that the solder was not adhering to the lead or pin; the connection was purely mechanical, probably in this case because there was NO flux there.


These smaller ones that open up have solder everywhere they need to have it - all around the pad's edge and on the leg itself - it's just that they still open up, seemingly due to age. But maybe there was insufficient rosin used, out of the starting gate, causing insufficient bonding of the solder to everywhere it had to go. Would love to see how glossy those joints were in the beginning, before the boards went into the units themselves.

Anyone looked at a brand new PS board sent out from Pio? Did it have glossy joints, or were they dried-out looking, as they all are on the boards I have seen that needed repair?


Quote:


In summary of all I have previously said, I can only surmise that it was a problem with the wave soldering machine and/or flux application. Obviously, they did a substantial run with that improper setup. What I don't understand is why new boards would have the same problem; did they do only one run for all time or did they not check the setup on that machine in subsequent runs? Also, hard to believe that they would not have done other boards on that machine that would exhibit the same problems, but I am glad to hear that you have checked other boards in the X10s have not not seen these problems; or has it just shown up on the PS boards because of all the heat generated and because they are mounted vertically so the heat sweeps up the entire board?


The joints on the other boards I mentioned were all nice and glossy years down the road. The convergence board is mounted vertically, just like the PS board, yet it was clear. The defl bd is a horizontal board, meaning that the bottom does not dissipate heat, it locks it in if there is any down there.

Quote:


Also, I'm fairly certain that I read in one of the threads that I looked at that the same problem has occurred with the newer version of the PS board. If that's true then that's really sad, because they probably redesigned the board to fix the very problem we are discussing but missed the real cause, then soldered it on the same mis-calibrated machine.


Yeah.


Quote:


Is all that really possible? Hey, one of the reasons I ever got into fixing things like cars, electronics, whatever, is that no one else seems to be able to fix (at least not reliably and/or to my even minimal satisfaction) most of the problems that I experience; not drs, not techs, not auto. I suppose I am still a bit of a perfectionist (not nearly as bad as when I was younger), however now I have zero tolerance for being patronized and/or stonewalled especially. Too old now to put up with that crap; there's always another place to go where you might find some respect.


TBC ...


You got that right!


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post #654 of 2941 Old 10-23-2006, 11:33 AM
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Nothing is off topic if it helps someone.


Yup.

Quote:


FWIW, I just bought a new pair of Serengeti Aviators, my sunglass of choice for many years, and this pair came with a recommendation I had never seen before which probably applies to all lenses: always wash with clean water first to remove any abrasive particles. I had never thought of that before.


That's exactly how I do my sunglasses. The guy who was about to sell me my last pair was reaching for a cleaning cloth, and I said "Stop. Please. I will not buy those glasses if you clean them as you are intending to do." I mentioned that I clean plasic lenses every day in my work, and would he mind if I cleaned them my way?

He consented, and I spirited them off to the closest men's room, to run pure water on them. I then used soft toilet paper for ONE SWIPE on each lens, and went back and paid him. Needless to say, he was very impressed with how clean I had gotten them, with no scratches. Still absolutely brand new.


Quote:


Finding this and the other older thread about the X10 PS problem saved me soooo much time (and probably money). True serendipity; as I mentioned before I found the threads when I googled up the Deflection board part number, looking for a better price than from Pioneer.


Would you mind putting that thread up here, so I can go visit it, see how much help they need?

I can't stomach the thought of owners trashing their sets - not only Pioneers but ANY CRT RPTV brand - and going fixed pixel when CRT RPTVs can still dominate and be at the head of the class, with the proper care and feeding. That's why I started the thread, "Don't dump your CRT RPTV!" on this site and at several areas of ***************.

If it's an AVS thread I will refer them back here, for the wealth of info we have going, here.


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I applaud your attention to detail and sensitivity to the surface of fine optics.


Great if you can get solder thin enough to do that. The feed-thrus I have seen on ECBs are way too small to still stay holes; they get filled up with solder immediately, with no room for the legs of ANY component I have ever seen.

But maybe there is such a thin solder, tho I have never seen or heard of it. I have always wondered if part of the reason these Pio PS boards are failing years down the line is because they used solder that was way too thin, out of the starting gate.


Mr Bob

Solder (actually tin) on PCB's with plated through holes is applied with an electrochemical process which is the basically the same as used to plate the holes with copper and the fingers with gold. It is easily controlled and can lay down the tin in microinch thicknesses.
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post #656 of 2941 Old 10-23-2006, 07:12 PM
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Mr. Bob et al,

I think I can do everything I intend to do now. The last time I tried it was my first post and I couldn't even put a URL in the post.

Here is the other thread, but the latest post to it is over a year old. I think some of the people may have migrated to this thread.

http://www.***************.com/htsth...fpart/all/vc/1

I got the board pic from John (JCBM). Its good enough to see some of the things I saw on my board. I had to split the image into two of the most interesting sections and resize them and compress them adding a little more distortion. They are down below. Took me a while to get them uploaded; many rules. I couldn't open them here with magnification, but you can download them by right clicking and doing a Save As to your PC.

Here is the text of the email I sent back to him.

Yes, your board looks very much like mine, except mine had even more flux on it. And, yes, shooting it in quadrants in macro mode would be much better. However, I do see some questionable joints as it is. I would not recommend you pulling the board immediately to fix them, but if you have any future problems you should definitely resolder the following and anything like them:

All of the connectors pins where there is flux, E6 and E7 especially. It looks like you may have done some, but in my case I got the old flux to flow further away from the joints. The top pin (in the picture) on E7 definitely looks like it still has flux under it. A couple very good examples of the flux under the solder problem may be on a joint below E7 to the right of the L214 label and just to the left of the E1 label. These look like what I call Hershey's Kisses joints, where the solder did not flow out, but rather curled underneath, sitting on top of excessive flux. Those were the joints I was especially careful to fix and on several of them I had to expose more copper to get the solder to flow out.

----

I decided to wait to see John's board before I called Pioneer, so I will call them tomorrow. I'll post again after I get some resolution from them.


MB, I was hoping you had something in writing for the overall alignment. What I will do is review the alignment procedures in the manual, decide exactly what I want to do, and contact you with specific questions if necessary.
LL
LL
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post #657 of 2941 Old 10-23-2006, 07:50 PM
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I got the board pic from John (JCBM). Its good enough to see some of the things I saw on my board. Here is the pic with the text of the email I sent back to him.

Not sure what happened with the image. supposedly it uploaded successfully as PRO610HD PS Board in the Rear Rrojection gallery, but I can't find it. Maybe it will show up later.

[IMG]PRO610HD PS Board[/IMG]

Yes, your board looks very much like mine, except mine had even more flux on it. And, yes, shooting it in quadrants in macro mode would be much better. However, I do see some questionable joints as it is. I would not recommend you pulling the board immediately to fix them, but if you have any future problems you should definitely resolder the following and anything like them:

All of the connectors pins where there is flux, E6 and E7 especially. It looks like you may have done some, but in my case I got the old flux to flow further away from the joints. The top pin (in the picture) on E7 definitely looks like it still has flux under it. A couple very good examples of the flux under the solder problem may be on a joint below E7 to the right of the L214 label and just to the left of the E1 label. These look like what I call Hershey's Kisses joints, where the solder did not flow out, but rather curled underneath, sitting on top of excessive flux. Those were the joints I was especially careful to fix and on several of them I had to expose more copper to get the solder to flow out.

Steve,
Thanks for the suggestions. The pix you saw was taken after the board have pulled out and before the resoldering. The joints that you pointed out have been resoldered myself. If I have new problems coming out, I will take better pix and may contact you. I'm living in Bedford. It's nice to have a pro near the neighborhood.

John
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post #659 of 2941 Old 10-23-2006, 08:41 PM
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John,

Oops, I just noticed that I misread you last post, thinking you had a new problem. Glad your not. I'll leave the rest of this here anyway for your and others future reference.

Sorry to hear the board is reverting. If you want to take another shot at it read my posts from yesterday about checking for intermittencies and the soldering techniques. Its very important to try to isolate the problem first so that you can confirm the fix later. If, after reading my posts and warnings, you do not feel comfortable going back in, you can send the board to me and I will resolder it for $50.

And do send more pix if you take it on; like I said of quadrants in macro mode. You obviously have a very good camera and know what you're doing with it.

A few other things:

Why don't you wait until I talk to Pioneer to see if they will do anything for us.

Also, do not use the TV again until you are ready to do the checking. I was lucky that mine only popped badly and shut off a couple times. Others lost CRTs from those jolts after 4 or 5 times. I'm sure everyone's X10 that had this problem has been weakened somewhat too.

Also, if you do decide to send the board to me, I will be leaving my TV accessible probably for a couple weeks so I could actually put your board in mine to troubleshoot it, assuming it still can produce a picture at least intermittently.

Lastly, please do not consider me a pro or an expert in the electronic repair field of today. Although I do hold a valid MA Radio and TV service technician license, I have been in the computer industry for over 20 years now. It is only coincidental that this problem happens to be within the scope of some of my former expertise. This problem we all have is something I dealt with in the early days of solid state home entertainment systems over 35 years ago, and that is more the shame of it.
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post #660 of 2941 Old 10-24-2006, 12:41 AM
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MB, I was hoping you had something in writing for the overall alignment. What I will do is review the alignment procedures in the manual, decide exactly what I want to do, and contact you with specific questions if necessary.


I have been writing on this board and others like it for literally years, but I have never put together a comprehensive handbook on how to calibrate a Pioneer CRT RPTV. After you get the hang of them they are fairly straightforward to calibrate, but still very time consuming even when you know what you are doing. Before you get the hang of it and you are still on the learning curve they seem to take forever, with all the little nips and tucks you have to keep in mind about them. There is a very steep learning curve, and it would take forever to write it all down, even as experienced a technical writer as I have grown to become, in the last 8 years. (I have been doing this on the net since the Digital Theater Forum, now defunct, was young.)

But worth every minute spent, as many of those who have had me clean and calibrate their sets will attest. It is actually thrilling to me, EVERY time we sit down and finally watch some video, esp. HD, after the whole enchilada has been done. Optics cleaning, both regular and the deeper stuff. Refocusing via the Cantilever Technique, which I wrote - usually 2 out of the 3 lenses on Pioneers are out of focus OOB. Overscan reduction, which recaptures and reveals to you lost areas of picture that you've never seen before on your OOB unit, and which also delivers heightened resolution, because of the increased pixel density. Geometry for supreme image structural linearities and ultra-tightly stitched convergence, making it so sharp you can sit there and study the grain of the film used to shoot movies. D6500K grayscale, and nicely balanced color and tint, even in the face of red push. Techniques to defeat red push and restore linearity to your color rendition, to re-achieve what the director intended...

Suspension of disbelief is not due to just convergence, just grayscale, or just focusing, or any one or 2 of any of these. It is due to the gestalt created by doing them all at the same time, which brings your images into focus as if you were dialing in binoculars or a telescope or microscope.

Takes a little longer, of course...




Besides, I am not in the business of putting myself out of business. It takes copious amounts of FREE time on my part to attend these websites every day or 2 and do all the technical writing that I do do, here. The ONLY compensation I get for doing so is when I am hired by a bigscreen owner to do a calibration, a repair, or a paid phone consultation. Just helping out DIYers here on this thread pays me absolutely nothing, as I am sure you can ID with.

I am glad to help, as long as enough owners who don't have the time or don't want to man the learning curve hire me. Otherwise I would have to search out and find other work, and could not spend further time here. My expenses continue and are inexorable, no matter what I do or don't do in this field.

I spent quite a bit of time at the XBOX forum recently surrounding how great they consider Hitachis for their games, and was quite helpful in assisting them in getting superlative pix out of their sets. I got quite a rep there, as being "the ISFer" on their board. But in 3 months of participation, not one person there hired me for anything. I can now no longer spend my valuable, irreplaceable time there.

Calibration is not my second job, nor is repair. They are my first job - I am a career calibrator and repair person. For now I am getting a moderate number of repair jobs on these sets mentioned in this thread, and many of them turn into calibrations as well. This keeps it worth it for me to be at this board, on board for questions all the time.

I am hoping that that will continue to continue, long into the forseeable future and maybe even beyond.


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