Pioneer Elite Pro-510 problem - Page 93 - AVS Forum
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post #2761 of 2921 Old 02-21-2012, 01:55 AM
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Newest crop -

IC 204 in the set upon arrival here



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After each leg being touched by my soldering iron



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Fully restored for life, guaranteed personally by me



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The power transformer, looking good even tho other parts of the board are not reliable



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Such as this



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and this



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Yes I am still resoldering these boards, will continue until there are no more to save!


b

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post #2762 of 2921 Old 02-21-2012, 10:39 AM
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Very bad workmanship on the part of this owner. Notice the missing sides of the multi-pin jacks. These are guides, and on this set those guides are missing.

This can cause plugs to be wrongly positioned in where they are supposed to plug in.



In this case the plug could be inserted with all pins one pin over to the right from where they are supposed to be! Who knows what instant and devastating domino effect that could cause! When the guides are there where they are supposed to be and have not been broken off, it's impossible to get it wrong when nothing is being forced.




Owners be careful! 2 jacks got compromised here on this one board, making it so 3 jacks are actually affected, as the wrong plug can now be successfully inserted wrongly into the one that is nearly identical, just one prong shorter/longer. The guide that is missing on that jack is now not protecting you from yourself, the jack is guideless on one end!

You have to have the nth degree of concentration when plugging the board back into the set, otherwise damage could happen instantly upon turnon again.

b

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post #2763 of 2921 Old 02-24-2012, 07:38 AM
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I am moving out of the area and cannot take my beloved Elite Pro 510 HD with me. It is in great shape with a resoldered power supply and only needs a good cleaning and an electronic alignment. It is need of a good home so If anyone out there wants one I am available to look at offers. (you must come and pick it up in Santa Cruz CA). Leave me a message and I'll get back to you.

Stan G
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post #2764 of 2921 Old 03-03-2012, 05:56 PM
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I have an Elite PRO-700 HD I bought in 1998, it has been ISF calibrated by Chad from Ohio about 3 years ago and still looks great. Does the 700HD have these soldering issues like the 510HD, or maybe not. Mine has been perfect since I bought it almost 14 years ago. Just curious, please let me know your thoughts. Thanks.
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post #2765 of 2921 Old 03-03-2012, 06:02 PM
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No, that gen will have a completely different PS board, and there have been no reports I have seen about cold solder joint problems with the 700 series.

It has a very hard to master convergence system, as it was the last one that came out before the point system arrived everywhere including Pioneer. But once that's handled, it has the capacity for greatness, just like all the Pioneer Elites.

No worries about the cold solder joint issues with that model year, tho. The issues started up the following year, on the 510/610/710 HDready line.

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post #2766 of 2921 Old 03-03-2012, 06:14 PM
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Mr. Bob,
Thanks for the quick reply. I appreciate the work that you calibrators do and improve the picture substantially. When Chad did the calibration, he worked on it for 9 hours straight. Never looked better once he was done and still looks killer 3 years later. Everyone that see's it comments on while watching a Blu-ray: "This is how a movie should look".
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post #2767 of 2921 Old 03-04-2012, 02:19 AM
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Yes, he's a pro.

Yet the optics still need to be cleaned every year without fail, and the deeper level optics done every few years as needed. Even the greatest calibration in the world will not truly show its stuff with its light path cloudy.

And every few years the convergence needs to be tightened up, as the convergence drifts naturally over time. Just like the aging of the 3 guns happens at different rates per color, so the grayscale also needs to be realigned every few years. At 3 years since his calibration, your set is definitely up for a good redo, after which it will have recaptured that gleam and glisten and depth that sets CRT video apart, and will look better than new all over again.



It's great to see a 700 being kept alive and well, and respected! Those Pioneer Elite CRT RPTVs are truly in a class by themselves.



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post #2768 of 2921 Old 03-04-2012, 08:36 PM
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Hi Bob,
I just received my board back, installed it and nearly fell over when it came back to life. WOW! Let me start by saying, my set has been inop for more than 4 years. However, I couldn't bring myself to throw it away for three simple reasons. First, when it did work, it had a gorgeous picture. Second, it is a beautiful piece of furniture. Third, and most importantly, it cost me a buttload of money when I bought it. I might add that due to unavailability, I had never seen HD on my set. Well, I made the right decision in reading your blog and sending the board to you for repair. The set works like the day I brought it home, and for the first time I've experienced HD on it. You fall into the "highly recommend" category in my book. Thanks again!
Jerry
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post #2769 of 2921 Old 03-05-2012, 03:05 AM
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Only too glad to help!




Owners:

Is yours a PRO 510/610/710 or PRO 520/620/720? If so has it had any intermittent problems that come and go? If so and it's one of the x10s, your power supply board needs nearly complete resoldering, and this needs to be done early on if you want to avoid damage that will ensue if you don't get that handled promptly. It is NOT best left in the hands of most local repair servicers, who only repair what's bad now. They typically do not future-proof that board, which is my specialty.

If it's one of the x20 series, chances are it's the same board if it has the same symptoms. There's a test to know for sure: If it's vertically mounted in there to the bulkhead of the set, it IS the same board. If mounted on the floor, it's not.

If it is, please get that board to me for resoldering and restoring permanently stable operations to your set again. Any boards I resolder carry my lifetime warranty on that problem not coming back again, as long as it was caused by cold solder joints on that board, which is how it came out of the factory and thus applies to every one of those sets ever produced. If you have me do it you'll never again have to worry about it, for the life of your set. I have been doing this resoldering op for over 7 years now, and this applies to all boards I have ever done, whether that guaranty was in place at the time I did your board or not.

And these sets are only midway thru their 20 year service life. Keeping it alive rather than buying new is the right thing to do, and not just to keep them out of the world's landfills. They were designed for the ultimate in HD viewing and are true classics, right up there with MacIntosh tube-amp Audio. Worthy of being kept alive for years and years to come. Fully cleaned and supertweaked, I will place them right up there with the new stuff you can buy today, which doesn't last nearly as long! And not only will they stand tall, they will soundly trounce most of the easily affordable stuff out there, by a noticeable margin.

Help me save more of these incredible sets. I have only saved several tons of sets so far in the last 7 years since I started fixing them, and am eager for more!

Once they are stable again, please allow me to bring them back to life for you, to a grade I guaranty you have never seen before if they have never been cleaned or calibrated. If you want to see what your sets SHOULD be looking like, please see page 45 of the Pioneer Elite PRO 510 Problem thread for actual screenshots of your vintage of set in action!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...402397&page=45



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post #2770 of 2921 Old 03-11-2012, 12:00 PM
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I have a Elite 620 and recently switched from DirecTV to Dish and now find that the TV is cutting off the top 1-2" of the picture. It may also be cutting off the bottom as well. I am using the component video interface from the DVR to the TV and cant seem to find an adjustment to correct.

Anyone know how to fix this, or do I just have to live with it?
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post #2771 of 2921 Old 03-11-2012, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ernie67t View Post

I have a Elite 620 and recently switched from DirecTV to Dish and now find that the TV is cutting off the top 1-2" of the picture. It may also be cutting off the bottom as well. I am using the component video interface from the DVR to the TV and cant seem to find an adjustment to correct.

Anyone know how to fix this, or do I just have to live with it?

Welcome to my hell!

My question to you is, what are you basing that off of? Cause it doesn't matter if I'm watching an over the air signal or that same station on Dish, the overscan is the same. If you're basing your observations on the cutoff in the menu, DirecTV might just scale theirs differently.

Curious to see your answer.
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post #2772 of 2921 Old 03-11-2012, 01:21 PM
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All CRT RPTVs were designed with this overscan built-in, and believe it or not it's been there all along, no matter what source you have been using or have changed over to.

It can be cured, but this is not an op you should even think about taking on unless you have lots of time on your hands and endless patience. The learning curve is immense. It's something that's always available in my calibrations and all things considered is quite cost effective compared to the benefits, but very few owners are ready for it. I am. I was born ready for it.

There are 2 ways to do it - resize your pic in the service menu by redoing height and width and correcting is one. And the shimming op, where you resize the pic via lifting the entire CRT array up on blocks permanently, reducing the size of your pic to appropriateness for seeing what you've been missing all along, and then correcting.

Either one requires that the entire pic's image structure be redone from scratch afterwards - geometry and convergence, and focusing if you do the shimming op - and if you don't get all that just right again, you could ruin your picture.

My advice: get me on it. Either confer with me on the phone or fly me in. Either way, it's not for the faint of heart.

But afterwards, you'll kick yourself for waiting so long! It's one of the best things you can do for your set.



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post #2773 of 2921 Old 03-11-2012, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

All CRT RPTVs were designed with this overscan built-in, and believe it or not it's been there all along, no matter what source you have been using or have changed over to.

It can be cured, but this is not an op you should even think about taking on unless you have lots of time on your hands and endless patience. The learning curve is immense. It's something that's always available in my calibrations and all things considered is quite cost effective compared to the benefits, but very few owners are ready for it. I am. I was born ready for it.

There are 2 ways to do it - resize your pic in the service menu by redoing height and width and correcting is one. And the shimming op, where you resize the pic via lifting the entire CRT array up on blocks permanently, reducing the size of your pic to appropriateness for seeing what you've been missing all along, and then correcting.

Either one requires that the entire pic's image structure be redone from scratch afterwards - geometry and convergence, and focusing if you do the shimming op - and if you don't get all that just right again, you could ruin your picture.

My advice: get me on it. Either confer with me on the phone or fly me in. Either way, it's not for the faint of heart.

But afterwards, you'll kick yourself for waiting so long! It's one of the best things you can do for your set.



b

I can attest to Mr. Bob's post in three ways:

1) Workload: The shimming op took a monumental effort, and I also pitched in to help Mr. Bob where I could on my Pro710HD calibration, specifically around mounting the blocks etc.

2) Mr. Bob's attention to detail and experience: Nothing new to add here, but Mr. Bob patiently spent countless hours perfecting the image after the shimming op, and the end result...

3) Was it worth it?: H Yes!. I had some serious overscan issues, and Mr. Bob was able to bring it to within 2 - 5 %, which is remarkable because now I see all tickers on ESPN and CNN. Simply phenomenal to see what I had been missing around the edges.

Hope this helps.

KS
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post #2774 of 2921 Old 03-20-2012, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

If you want to get shots of cold solder joints, it's best to do so at an angle. It's hard to see them when the shot is from straight above. Look for a "halo" around the leg itself, sometimes with an obvious separation going on in that halo.

I think they should call them "dry" solder joints rather than "cold", but they didn't ask me... It's like they "dried out".

"Cold" solder joints are dry and flat and dull and lifeless, without the rich gloss and gleam of a good solder joint, which lasts forever. These actually look pretty glossy, lots more so than I normally see on the x10 series.

In the case of the affected PS bd they are also thin. Whenever I resolder a board I always wind up adding lots of solder, prolly doubling the amount on there originally. Lots of the conns I work with on these boards are so thin that when I hit them with my iron, they separate, exposing a huge gap.

I have now seen many of the 520/620/720 series with exactly the same PS bd as the 510/610/710 series. It usually needs the resoldering work also. You'll know it's the same bd if it's mounted vertically onto the bulkhead, just like the x10 series.

The "paint" you see missing is actually the masking they use. DK why it's not there in certain areas, perhaps to make it easier to do testing with probes...


How did this finally come out, BTW?


Mr Bob

Was looking for info on how to fix the overscan issue on this set. (Especially when Directv switched their GUI--now, can't read the clock etc)

Well, after my 3 hour (pretty much re-soldered every joint) soldering job back in April 2008...the set has been rock-solid! Zero issues after heavy use. Well, other than burn-in getting worse from tickers and station logos.

Just thought I'd give an update!
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post #2775 of 2921 Old 03-21-2012, 12:10 AM
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Awesome!



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post #2776 of 2921 Old 03-21-2012, 12:48 AM
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Time has come for me to clear out my emails from my ISP again, and there are so many this time that it is going to take a while!

Until I have this handled this time, if you want to reach me by email, please send all emails to mrbob84@gmail.com. Phone number is always available regardless of email status, of course.

I'll get this handled as soon as I can.

b

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post #2777 of 2921 Old 03-21-2012, 10:20 AM
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I think the crisis has passed. I got a lot of work done on downloading it all to Outlook, so now there's just a really small, innocuous amount of email on my ISP.

I think the regular email address will work fine now. Let me know if you get any bouncebacks -

b

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post #2778 of 2921 Old 03-24-2012, 03:54 PM
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I think my Elite 510 HD is dieing. The brightness was been weak for a while, but then last night the convergence on the red went bad -- top right and bottom left went way off and the convergence menu had no effect. Any hope for this, or do I have to go LCD shopping?




scott s.
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post #2779 of 2921 Old 03-24-2012, 04:05 PM
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Worth Saving!!!!

You have come to the right place... And I am sure you will have Mr. Bob's attention shortly. It looks like the red amp on one of your two convergence chips is going. If so, very easy fix. If you are handy with a soldering iron...you may actually be able to do it yourself.

Two recommendations... 1. Pay for an hour or two of phone consultation with Bob.. totally worth it. 2. Upgrade the existing chips from the original STK392-110s to the upgrade replacements STK392-180s.

The chips are pretty cheap... $20 from MCM electronics. Don't buy cheaper ones from EBay. They are seconds. The cost to replace them and setup the calibration depends on you. That will become more clear when you talk to Bob...

I have a 510 and a 710. The 710 was professionally calibrated by the best in the business...Craig Rounds and Bob himself...both before I bought it. Both now have shim mods. I did the 510 calibration myself from what I learned here and elsewhere online. Both of my sets blow away my Sony LCD...and it's no slouch.

Keep it. Fix it. Save your cash...

Good luck!

Joe
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post #2780 of 2921 Old 03-24-2012, 08:38 PM
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Absolutely. There are 6 channels in there for convergence - horizontal and vertical for each color. 2 chips do it all, but don't try to figure out which is bad, just change them both out, because the other would go relatively soon.

Yes many owners do it themselves, Joe is one of the most prolific owners I have ever seen! Or you can have me do it by sending me the board, it's super easy to remove and send off.

No, don't even think about buying new. Totally unnecessary if you own one of these babies. They are 20 year service life sets.

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post #2781 of 2921 Old 03-25-2012, 09:00 PM
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Mr. Bob and I just had a phone session on cleaning optics on my elite 630.I cannot thank him enough for the patience with me as I disassembled one of my 3 Pioneers for the first time. To summarize the experience was magic. I cannot believe how much information is created through those 3 guns via those lenses and mirror. The technology despite its age is magical.

The lesson in life is a valuable one and it has caused me to consider how much is truly new improved and worth obtaining in other areas of my life. How much do we truly understand about what we discard and what we covet and acquire?

I first came to AVS forums circa 2005 and decided on a Hitachi 57 inch unit. Finally getting back to the forums years later I took the plunge and purchased a Pioneer 710 HD which had already been tuned, converged by a local technician. The picture was so impressive, I found a 730 HDi and bought it (needs work) and then found the 630 for the sweet price of $100 local. Thank you craigslist search app.

I know it is apples and oranges but I sat down in best buy and looked at a top of the line Viera. By the time I added up the TV, furniture for the TV or professional mount/installation and the sound system, I could not justify the huge investment instead of picking up one of these units.

Now I have become a TV holic. I sit around watching HD content via cable and cannot believe how lovely the picture is. Truly a pleasure in life that I was missing.

Thank you Mr. Bob. I wonder what you would charge me if I flew you out to work on all three sets? I am hunting a new prospect, Mit WS 65813 supposedly 9 inch guns?

Is there anyone in Orlando central Florida area that wants to put together a Mr. Bob trip?

Sam
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post #2782 of 2921 Old 03-26-2012, 08:15 AM
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Thanks Sam, appreciate it. Was fun! And yes, the 65813 has the 9" guns. So does the 65815/the following model year, making the 65815 a year newer and fresher than the 65813.

Having an eye surgeon like yourself working with me on the optical parts of these ops is delicious! Thanks for the articles you emailed me on the various aspects of seeing clearly, esp. applied here to this genre, like vernier and how it applies.


On a calibration tour it would cost you just the normal calibration rates on the first one, and you get to divvy up the various travel expenses getting me there by however many owners participate. When I did my Minn, MN tour, each participant only had to come out of pocket $78.50 each, for my travel expenses.

Since you have 3 of these babies, we might be able to work out a quantity deal price on the second and third.

Anyone who wants to get involved with this tour, contact us. Sam already has the core of 3 units to do while there.


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post #2783 of 2921 Old 03-26-2012, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Absolutely. There are 6 channels in there for convergence - horizontal and vertical for each color. 2 chips do it all, but don't try to figure out which is bad, just change them both out, because the other would go relatively soon.

Yes many owners do it themselves, Joe is one of the most prolific owners I have ever seen! Or you can have me do it by sending me the board, it's super easy to remove and send off.

No, don't even think about buying new. Totally unnecessary if you own one of these babies. They are 20 year service life sets.

b

thanks guys. Is there a big calibration effort required after changing out chips? Any pix (maybe in this thread or another)? I'm still concerned that even if I fix this immediate problem I still have the issue of the brightness going bad (for example, when I watch something with subtitle when the subtitle comes on the image goes noticeably darker).

scott s.
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post #2784 of 2921 Old 03-27-2012, 01:24 AM
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The 510/610/710 and 520/620/720 series' eventually go dimmer in the Black Level over the years, where you have to keep goosing up the Black Level in User menu. Usually at 10 years old it has to be run up at +12 to +15 on Black Level to be able to see shadow detail, and this usually slews your grayscale as well, off from where it should be.

But this can be quite readily remedied by realigning the energies getting to the guns, stepping them up again to where they were when the set was new, causing perfect shadow detail again at Black Level midpoint of zero in User Menu. Optics cleaning is essential as well. I can do it with you over the phone, many owners on this thread have been coached by me on this op and others.

Many things can be taught over the phone, I do it all the time, from CA to far corners of the country, even the continent or other countries. If you can't fly me in, rest assured there are still powerful things that can be done to keep your set alive and well. And if you do fly me in and give me free hand, your set can wind up looking better than new.

Long live CRT! These are ageless sets, with 20 year service lives. My fondest wish would be to make every one of them look better than new.

b

Robert Jones
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post #2785 of 2921 Old 03-29-2012, 12:14 AM
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I bought mine in 2003 and haven't done anything to it, other than run the Avia user calibration from time to time. Currently I only use one of the DVI inputs and it seems like there aren't that many picture adjustments on digital input.

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post #2786 of 2921 Old 03-29-2012, 06:06 AM
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Then you have no idea what you're missing.

Go to page 45 of this thread and look at the pix I took of sets I have worked on in other parts of the country. That's how your set can look given the proper attention, which I promise you has not happened yet.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...402397&page=45

Avia is strictly SD, not HD. And there is no DVI on a 510. Don't know what you're calling DVI, but your set doesn't have it, it hadn't been created yet for the populace at the time your set was designed and produced.

If all the calibration you've done is with AVIA, it has not been calibrated for HD. If you are not using your 510 for watching high definition on it, you are REALLY missing the boat!

Really. You have no idea what you're missing. Tell him, guys -

b

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post #2787 of 2921 Old 03-30-2012, 04:18 PM
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update
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post


Avia is strictly SD, not HD. And there is no DVI on a 510. Don't know what you're calling DVI, but your set doesn't have it, it hadn't been created yet for the populace at the time your set was designed and produced.

If all the calibration you've done is with AVIA, it has not been calibrated for HD. If you are not using your 510 for watching high definition on it, you are REALLY missing the boat!

Really. You have no idea what you're missing. Tell him, guys -

b

Sorry, sorry sorry. Must have had a major brain fart. It's actually a PRO-530HD. I don't know why all this time I was thinking 510? Very embarrassing.

I went ahead and ordered a couple of the Sanyo STK 392-180 convergence amps. Figure nothing lost. I assume after replacing I have to go through a full convergence adjustment. Found a manual online that seems to lay it out, though not 100% clear.

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post #2788 of 2921 Old 03-31-2012, 09:20 AM
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If you want the fullest benefit of your set, yes you need to reconverge after replacing your ICs. And then again after the 100 hour drift period.

You have still not answered about HD and AVIA. Are you being pleasantly hypnotized by stealth grade HD on your set, or is that an experience you have yet to have?

If you want the best from your HD, get Joe Kane's Digital Video Essentials - DVE for short - and if you really want the best and tightest convergence possible, contact me about using my Accupel HDG 2000 HD pattern generator for a week or so. It has the best patterns for component fed sets. I use my HDG 3000 really only for its DVI/HDMI capacities, without the need for that I would still be using my 2000.

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post #2789 of 2921 Old 04-01-2012, 04:59 PM
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Been thinking about getting DVE but never got around to it. Currently all my video goes via my Denon 3300ci AVR which can send either 480p or 1080i via HMDI/DVI input 5 on the Elite. I only have a Samsung STB ATSC tuner for HD material, though. I guess the parts should show up in a week or so, so once I get them in I'll have a better idea. I didn't find any direct info on the 530 model, but it seems reasonably straightforward to remove the power supply board and then get access to unsolder and replace the chips. I see there's some funky procedure you have to use if you power up the unit with the back off, though it seems like you can disable the HDCP protection switch and avoid that if you are careful.

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post #2790 of 2921 Old 04-02-2012, 03:41 AM
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HDCP protection is all about copy protection, and has nothing to do with the power interlock that keeps your set from firing up with the back off unless you were to defeat it.

And you don't want to defeat that interlock in this case.

You usually never want to be powering up your set with the back off anyway, you want to unplug it whenever the back is off, unless absolutely necessary for service repair troubleshooting. Which you don't need to do in this case - convergence is pretty open and shut without ever having to have the unit powered up for repair troubleshooting, which only needs to happen in certain instances. This is not one of them.

Also, don't ever remove the top half of the back, the slanted section. Your mirror will nosedive into your screens, ruining them and possibly breaking itself on the lenses, possibly scarring them for life.

I am not sure the PS board is the one you work with, to replace the conv ICs, have not had the pleasure on the 530. But don't remove any board you don't necessarily have to remove, to get that job done.

This is not a job for the faint of heart, nor the overconfident. Be careful in there. If you don't already know what you're doing, best to leave this kind of op to someone who does. The 510 and the first half of the 520 model year have a dedicated conv bd that gets removed to replace the conv ICs, they are not on the power supply board. Again, have not had the pleasure with a 530 nor the second half of the 520 series, they may have those ICs on the PS board. Just be careful in there, you're kinda on your own in some ways. Tho I am sure someone on this thread might be able to give you some guidance from having done it themselves on a 530 -

b

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