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post #31 of 386 Old 06-09-2004, 04:57 AM
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Hi Tom,

I notice this 4:3 issue alot - what is it? If it is discussed at the top of this thread, I must have missed it. Could you point me in the right direction to find out what this 4:3 issue is with CRT?

thanks alot!

Is it Friday yet?
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post #32 of 386 Old 06-09-2004, 09:23 AM
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In a nutshell the 4:3 issue is:

Most TV programming is broadcast with an aspect ratio of 4:3. That is the aspect ratio of a standard tube TV.

HDTV programming is broadcast with an aspect ratio of 16:9. And thus this is the standard to which "widescreen" HDTV sets are made.

Movies can be in 4:3, 16:9, 1.85:1, 2:35:1 or other formats. Most tend to be 1.85:1 or 2.35:1.

So on a standard 4:3 TV, all widescreen material will be displayed with black bars on the top and bottom. The wider the source aspect ratio, the smaller the video image is and the wider the black bars.

On a 16:9 HDTV set, 4:3 source material will not fill up the screen horizontally. So it will have vertical black bars on each side of the image. Note this set will also have horizontal black bars when viewing 2.35:1 material, however those bars will be smaller than when watching on a 4:3 set. Technically a 16:9 CRT could be burned by too much viewing of 2.35:1 material, but most people won't be watching this 75% of the time.

The problem is that some technologies are susceptible to "burn-in" when they are heavily used to watch material that has "black bars" on the screen. Actually the image area is burning in and the black area is unused, which can eventually result in the black areas being a bit brighter when you do use them. For example, if you have a 16:9 HDTV and watch a lot of standard TV 4:3 programming. Eventually when you watch HD programming that fills the screen, the sides of the screen, where the black bars existed while you watched 4:3, will now be a bit brighter than the center of the image.

Owners of HDTV sets that are susceptible to burn-in, such as CRT-based and plasma sets, are motivated to prevent this burn-in from happening. In order to try to burn down the "black bar area" evenly with the center image, manufacturers started to project gray bars instead of black. So those areas of the screen were not completely inactive. The effectiveness of this is what I've been discussing in this thread.

The other alternative is to stretch the 4:3 image so that it completely fills the screen. Early on manufacturers stretched the image evenly across the screen. In recent years they have employed different algorithms, usually leaving the center close to 4:3, so that the center of the action is the natural aspect ratio, but this forces the sides to be more aggressively stretched. A stretched image has no black/gray areas and so this burn-in concern is completely addressed. (Other burn-in issues exist, such as station logos, game/computer fixed images, and overly bright settings.)

I find these stretched images objectionable because they do significantly distort the original image. On a 57" display the image is stretched about a foot to fit the 16:9 screen. However many (most?) HDTV set owners seem to accept this.

There is a third alternative - don't watch much 4:3 programming. If your use of the set for 4:3 is down in the 10%-20% range, then it is unlikely you would see any burn-in.
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post #33 of 386 Old 06-10-2004, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tom_Bombadil

My question is as follows:

Given that one has a calibrated CRT run at recommended contrast and brightness, then what are the chances of experiencing burn if 75% of one's viewing is of 4:3 material in its native aspect ration with grey bars? Let's say the set is on 4 hours a day.


There is a 100% chance of this. How long before it becomes noticeable is a different matter.
Burn in is uneven phospor wear which will occour if a static image is left on the screen 75% of the time no matter what color it is.
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post #34 of 386 Old 06-10-2004, 01:17 PM
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But I never said anything about a static image.

If one is viewing constantly changing 4:3 images with varying intensity and changing gray bars on the side, then there is no static image. The idea behind having variable gray bars was to provide a balanced burn as compared to the average burn on any area of the project image within the 4:3 area.

Thus the gist of my questions above was 'how well did this work?' It certainly should work much better than using black bars. So far the response has been that it doesn't help all that much.
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post #35 of 386 Old 06-14-2004, 04:17 PM
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first post here. I have a Mistsubishi 55311 for a year or sow now and my son likes to watch Disney Channel, I would say an hour a day but is not everyday. Well I have the beautifull Mickey Mouse ears logo 24 x 7 now. what can I do?

Thanks
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post #36 of 386 Old 06-16-2004, 02:01 PM
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I have a 42WE610 (Sony GWIII RP-LCD).
When displaying a block pattern that has white squares, on the left side of the screen, there is slight ghosting of purple and green on the left and right side of the white boxes. This ghosting is only maybe 1/4 of a pixel wide, but is definitely there.

On the right side of the screen, there is a slight ghosting in the same manner, however it is blue and yellow, again, very slight against the white boxes on the left and right sides of the boxes and only about 1/4 of a pixel wide, and viewable only at a very close range (6" or so).

I'm using a DVI connection from my Nvidia fx5900xt. Is this type of colored ghosting normal, or am I having convergence issues that warrants a service call from a tech for my 42we610?

Again, there is no ghost on the white boxes within a 8" or so radius of the centre of the screen, but the ghosting becomes more pronounced as you travel further from the centre.

I've been told this is normal, as it is called convergence drift or something, but want to get some more assurances.

Thanks.
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post #37 of 386 Old 06-16-2004, 02:19 PM
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The electronics of the set can only display whole pixels, so if you are seeing something 1/4 pixel wide, it seems it would have to be a convergence issue. As to whether or not it warrants a service call... Is it at all noticible during normal viewing, or only when your run this very specific test? I think you might have trouble convincing a tech it's a problem being a quarter pixel off on the sides of the screen from 6" away while displaying a test pattern.
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post #38 of 386 Old 06-17-2004, 12:39 PM
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Istvan,

I was waiting to see if others who have more experience in dealing with burn-in would respond, seeing none, I'll jump in.

Your logo burn-in is a nasty, and unfortunately all too common, problem. It is surprising that you would have it given that the channel isn't used all that much. Ther reports about burn-in from the MSNBC and Headline News logos and tickers were abundant back after 911 due to the hundreds of hours people left those channels on, even when working around the house, to keep up with the news.

One thing that sometimes lessens or eliminates the problem is to perform a full-screen white-burn. That is, find a way to display a full screen white image (say from a test DVD) for several hours. Or if you have a VCR or DBS receiver that can generate a blue screen with no lettering or symbols on it, then use that and turn up the brightness and contrast to make it pretty bright.

Some who have sophisticated PCs or good image editing tools, can create reverse-burn images, where they capture say a black screen shot that has the logo present, and then create a negative/reverse image of that shot, where then only the logo is black, and then run that screen for a while to even out the picture.

Others may offer more ideas.
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post #39 of 386 Old 06-17-2004, 10:04 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Tom_Bombadil
But I never said anything about a static image.

If one is viewing constantly changing 4:3 images with varying intensity and changing gray bars on the side, then there is no static image. The idea behind having variable gray bars was to provide a balanced burn as compared to the average burn on any area of the project image within the 4:3 area.

Thus the gist of my questions above was 'how well did this work?' It certainly should work much better than using black bars. So far the response has been that it doesn't help all that much.

The grey bars are static in that they are present and unchanging for a significant portion of the time. Grey is quite a bit better than black bars. That said, if it's always on there and the rest of your 4:3 image doesn't average out to the wear caused by grey - someday you will notice a difference. It could take 15-20 years depending on the disparity(well beyond the life of the set - and the disparity is the key reason why black is bad and grey is much more neutral as all television images have some degree of light whereas black has none). With brightness and contrast maxed while watching only 4:3 dark scenes it could take a lot less time than that. There's really no quantitative measure. The risk is lessened but not totally removed and a lot of it depends upon your viewing and how you setup your display.

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post #40 of 386 Old 06-17-2004, 10:56 PM
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If implemented correctly the gray bars are not unchanging. Sets can be programmed to change brightness based upon how bright the scenes are in the 4:3 area. And the grays can have varying black and white "patterns" within them ... sort of like a very fine pitch "snow" pattern.

The data I've seen is that even when displaying gray bars, those areas of the screen are still burning in less than the 4:3 area. Thus the burn-in becomes visible when the gray bar areas begin to be visibly brighter (i.e. have less burn in than the rest of the screen) on full-screen images. I've yet to see a single report in any forum where the gray bar area was dimmer (more burned-in) than the 4:3 area. It's theoretically possible, as you describe above.

What I've been trying to find out is if a set is properly set up with AVIA/DVE, then how much is the risk lessened? Does it take 3X as long? 5X? Seems like it would lessened considerably vis a vis black bars.
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post #41 of 386 Old 06-18-2004, 08:18 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Tom_Bombadil

What I've been trying to find out is if a set is properly set up with AVIA/DVE, then how much is the risk lessened? Does it take 3X as long? 5X? Seems like it would lessened considerably vis a vis black bars.

I don't know that there's ever really been anything quantified on that given that you'd need a controled study. I'd venture that you'd get a very significant gain over the black and once contrast and brightness are turned down from torch mode the risk is much less overall regardless of black or grey. I wouldn't even know where to begin to look for a study on this if it did exist.

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post #42 of 386 Old 06-21-2004, 11:36 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Tom_Bombadil
Istvan,

I was waiting to see if others who have more experience in dealing with burn-in would respond, seeing none, I'll jump in.

Your logo burn-in is a nasty, and unfortunately all too common, problem. It is surprising that you would have it given that the channel isn't used all that much. Ther reports about burn-in from the MSNBC and Headline News logos and tickers were abundant back after 911 due to the hundreds of hours people left those channels on, even when working around the house, to keep up with the news.

One thing that sometimes lessens or eliminates the problem is to perform a full-screen white-burn. That is, find a way to display a full screen white image (say from a test DVD) for several hours. Or if you have a VCR or DBS receiver that can generate a blue screen with no lettering or symbols on it, then use that and turn up the brightness and contrast to make it pretty bright.

Some who have sophisticated PCs or good image editing tools, can create reverse-burn images, where they capture say a black screen shot that has the logo present, and then create a negative/reverse image of that shot, where then only the logo is black, and then run that screen for a while to even out the picture.

Others may offer more ideas.

Thanks for your answer. I'm pretty upset about that burn in, my son did not watch that channel for more like an hour a day for the past year and a half. As soon as I've got the tv I adjusted brigthness and contrast to less than 50%.
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post #43 of 386 Old 06-27-2004, 07:19 PM
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Can you still get burn-in with the new DLP and LCD tvs?
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post #44 of 386 Old 06-28-2004, 03:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by eRob
Can you still get burn-in with the new DLP and LCD tvs?

No! Now there has been threads about burn-in on LCDs but I don't know how extensive that is.

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post #45 of 386 Old 06-28-2004, 09:54 AM
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I have a Sony KP53XBR200 RPTV about 5 years old. I have a little over one month left in my +4 year EW from GE. I also have, courtesy of KTLA Los Angeles, their logo burned into the lower right corner of my TV. Other than boycotting the Morning News, I didn't know what else to do. I tried running an all white image to "wash" the screen, that didn't work.
This weekend I was talking to a CSR at a high end AV store in Santa Monica, and mentioned my problem. He insisted that the EWs they offer cover burn in. I called GE this AM and already have a service scheduled for Thursday for the beast (this set has been one big problem child) and asked about coverage. They want the tech to evaluate it. It sounds like I'll be "let down" gently. I already was LDG trying to claim "lemon" on the TV as I've had the same thing break on the TV 3 times in 4 months. It seems the 3rd occurance happend 3 weeks after the last repair and is still covered by the 30 day mid warranty. If I had waited another 10 days or so, I may have qualified for lemon protection! Grrrrr.
To those that remember this beast, it was quite the set, back in the day. Great SD picture but was plagued early on by green lines in component DVD mode. Sony figured it out and fixed it in the first year. All my problems have been relared to that some input (#5-component) and have been all the calls made to service the set.
I'll report the results on the burn in issue after I see what they do. I scanned above, has anyone successfully had burn in repaired under EW?

Joe in West Los Angeles, CA
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post #46 of 386 Old 07-01-2004, 08:12 PM
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Quick question: what is the relation of black level (brightness) and burn-in?

I get white level (contrast) being to high will cause blooming and burn-in. But how does a high black level effect the tubes? Especially if the white level if well below blooming levels.

jdg
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post #47 of 386 Old 07-02-2004, 03:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by JohnDG
Quick question: what is the relation of black level (brightness) and burn-in?

I get white level (contrast) being to high will cause blooming and burn-in. But how does a high black level effect the tubes? Especially if the white level if well below blooming levels.

jdg

Contrast and brightness go hand in hand. If your brightness is too high that could possibly cause burn-in. The best thing to do is to use Video Essentials to properly set your brightness.

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post #48 of 386 Old 07-04-2004, 09:31 PM
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This is worth reading.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=415612

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post #49 of 386 Old 07-08-2004, 04:42 AM
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I have not done extensive research on this yet, but I cannot find info on if a LCD Rear Projection is or is not prone to burn in?


Also, does anyone know if it is or is not safe to use a DVI on non HD stations, or should I have another input hooked up (S-video??) for non HD stations?



I use DVI on my sony WE610 and recently I need to have my TV on with my cable box off and then turn the cable box on while my TV is on to get the picture to appear. I think this is more cable box related since this never used to be the case, but am unsure. Also when this first started happening a message came on the TV that stated "The HD content of this display has been comprimised, please use components inputs". Now I have no clue if this message is from the Comcast HD receiver or my TV. Recently I have not seen this message and the message only started appearing when I had to start recycling cable receiver power with the TV on to get a picture to appear.
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post #50 of 386 Old 07-08-2004, 04:46 AM
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I also have an ED plasma used about twice a week in my pool room. Again, I was told that a Component or DVI input used on non HD stations will ruin the TV, is this true? I just got the ED plasm over Memorial Day weekend and so far I like it for the reletively cheap price of $2500 with a wall mount.
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post #51 of 386 Old 07-08-2004, 01:16 PM
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Soo...

I have a 57" 16:9 Sony HD-RPTV...

Over the past several months... I became ADDICTED to SOCOM II (A PlayStation 2 Game)

Well... this game involves alot of hiding in dark maps... shooting through bushes... blah blah blah blah blah.

Because of this... my dumbass got sick of squinting and turned the brightness/contrast up pretty high in my `game mode`


Well... luckily... this game doesnt have many areas of high contrast... EXCEPT... for in the bottom right/left corners... there are two areas of white text.


Well... last night I popped in the `Love Actually` DVD (decent for a chick flick )

The DVD Menu is `PURE WHITE` and right away I noticed what looked like `dirt` on my screen.

Well it was only a few seconds later that I realized... the `dirt` was actually brown-hued... and very vague... outlines of the text from SOCOM. :\\


So... I've looked through the FAQ... and the only fix I saw was `reversing the screen image`

How would I do it in this case... where the only `burn in` is small text outlines in the bottom corners? Is it possible?

If not... what can be repaired in my TV to fix this?
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post #52 of 386 Old 07-08-2004, 01:27 PM
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soopa, try to look for info on the "snow" technique. I have seen it referenced as a moderate remedy for burn-in. I assume you just keep snow on your tv for awhile, but do some research into what it involves.

turn your contrast down, as well, if it isn't already. I am not too worried about burn in on my hitachi because the room is pretty dark 24/7 and contrast is at 30 or so.

jomoma....

What box do you have? I have an SA3250HD from timewarner. there is a "passthrough" setting that doesn't convert the signal at all 480i -> 480i, 720p -> 720p, etc. This lets me fill the screen no matter what the signal is. I have no idea if you can damage a tv using DVI. I have heard that LCD and PLasma are susceptible to burn-in just like CRT, but CRT is the most susceptible. in the end it all depends on proper precautions, and about a million other variables

Is it Friday yet?
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post #53 of 386 Old 07-08-2004, 01:38 PM
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thanks... i'll check that out.

and yeh... i have my `calibrated` setting that im usually on...

but in that dark game it just made it sooo much easier to kill people i play against online with my contrast way up


oh well


hopefully i can fix it.
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post #54 of 386 Old 07-08-2004, 01:48 PM
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pheno... i'm having trouble finding info on the `snow technique`... did you see this elsewhere perhaps? link?
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post #55 of 386 Old 07-08-2004, 03:21 PM
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There is no problem with using DVI or Component connections. What they are referring to is that in the DVI mode your selection of aspect ratios is limited and sometimes you cant change it at all. So if 4:3 content comes on you cant stretch it so the black bars are there. It seems the plasma people have found that if you watch everything in stretch for the first few hundred hours, they are less susceptible to burn in. You have to watch a good mix of content

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post #56 of 386 Old 07-13-2004, 09:46 PM
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Actually plasma sets are more susceptible to burn-in than CRTs. Recent models are better but you can burn a plasma in just a few hours of fixed image viewing. Thus one has to be even more careful of their settings, viewing habits, logos, etc. with a plasma set.

I've read of cases of light burn-in where the "snow" technique has helped. A more drastic manuever is to display a full screen white image with brightness and contrast turned up to try to mask burn areas by doing a full-screen burn.

Burning up a projection TV with games is expensive entertainment there soopa.
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post #57 of 386 Old 07-17-2004, 11:55 AM
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Remedy to burn in:
If you can connect your PDP or RPTV to a computer, there is a program that is used by most manufacturers to try to 'fix' a burned in image.
The program is NTEST.exe from Nokia, which can also be found at:
.http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=960

You want to run the high voltage pattern on this test pattern program for about an hour or so and this should reduce or eliminate your existing burn in.

The premise of this program is similar to running a full white screen; but the act of toggling between dark/white screens ensures that you are running at a maximum voltage mode which 'drives' out burned in particles.
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post #58 of 386 Old 07-20-2004, 03:03 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by AFH
IS THERE ANYTHING THAT CAN BE DONE TO CIRCUMVENT "BURN-IN"

Absolutely, the list is as follows:

1) Get your display "calibrated". Now if that entails a professional ISF calibration (~$400) or a calibration via Avia or DVE (~$40). That's your call. Alot of "damage" can be curtailed by dialing down the brightness and contrast from the get go.
2) Put some sort of "color" on the side bars when watching 4:3 content in its native aspect ratio. If you absolutely hate stretching 4:3 content, that is filling the 16:9 aspect ratio of the unit, then make sure that the side bars are set to either "gray" or some other color than "black".
3) Did I mention to dial down the contrast and brightness?
4) Vary your viewing habits. In this day and age of 16:9 DVD's, HD content and SD content this should not be difficult to be achieved.
5) Dial down the contrast and brightness, are you getting this part yet?
6) CRTs are susceptible to "burn-in" when in their infancy as the phosphors have not had a chance to age. A few hundred hours of watching varied material to age the phosphors is not unrealistic and will probably due a lot to curtail possible damage.
7) TURN DOWN THE CONTRAST AND BRIGHTNESS OF THE DISPLAY. Sorry, but I firmly believe that this is crucial to preventing burn-in damage.
8) When you are done playing a video game or watching a movie with the black bars?on the top and bottom, watch a program that fills the screen for the same amount of time you spent playing the video game or watching the movie. This will in a way help to wash?away the previous static image.[/b]

This may not work for everyone out there, but I haven't notice anyone suggest this yet.

Instead of the 'ugly gray bars' on my parents' Mit55311(?), I got them to use the PIP to display three PIP images off to the right when they watch 4:3 material (practically all day) The 4:3 material is not stretched or in any way visibly changed (as compared to a 'tiny' 21" sony CRT in the kitchen area nearby) and the 3 side PIPs are also 4:3 formatted (so they also show up 'correctly')

On the Mit, the three PIP images cycle every few seconds, so the image is kept 'in motion' pretty much the whole time. One forseeable potential problem is where the 3 PIP stops and the 4:3 image begins... there might be a slim black line splitting the two that could cause uneven usage.

Again, it may not work for you, because having the 3 PIPs is somewhat distracting, but my parents actually got used to it and enjoy spotting what else might be on at the same time.

One side benefit is that I feel like i'm getting full use of all the channels from my cable provider this way.

Of course, if this isn't a good way and is just a silly harebrained idea lacking any common sense, please let me know. (maybe that's why it hasn't been mentioned as a way of circumventing burn-in when viewing 4:3 material on a 16:9 tv...)

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post #59 of 386 Old 07-21-2004, 09:22 AM
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Is burn-in an issue with videogames on newer CRTs? For instance, will the HUDs and health meters get burned in? What are the guidelines for playing video games on a CRT RPTV?
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post #60 of 386 Old 07-21-2004, 10:17 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Vikram R
Is burn-in an issue with videogames on newer CRTs? For instance, will the HUDs and health meters get burned in? What are the guidelines for playing video games on a CRT RPTV?

as long as phospher is involved, I believe so.

some RPs come with a 'Game Mode' which basically lowers the brightness and contrast (as far as I can tell)

generally, i try to limit it to a half-hour before switching to a different game if there's any static image on-screen...

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