HLP audio/video lag "FIX" from Samsung - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 89 Old 06-23-2004, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Just got off the phone with Samsung support on my 2 issues:
1)smudges
2)A/V sync

Thought I would share the results:

1) smudges- had never heard of this problem, told me that since they go away after awhile that I shouldn't worry about them.

2) sync issue- Put me on hold to talk to an engineer came back and told me that all I had to do was to turn "BBE" on in the user menu, and turn "DNIE" off.

When I questioned him he didn't know why that would work just that it would fix my issue. I followed up asking what the long term fix would be since surely I would not have to keep DNIE of as it is the "proprietary" enhancement system for the TV that we all pay the big bucks for. He told me that for people using the tv speakers that that was the solution.

**Please see my additional posts below for the outcome of this fix and other "new" info from Samsung.
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post #2 of 89 Old 06-23-2004, 11:08 AM
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Wow, that's not very good design. I thought that the audio sync issue was limited to using the TV internal speakers, but someone said otherwise. So am I correct in assuming that using an amp/ external speakers there is no lag?
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post #3 of 89 Old 06-23-2004, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, most receivers can be set to alleviate the lag.

I just can't believe that I have to turn off a "feature" of the TV to make it work how it is supposed to. I haven't tried this "fix" yet but will when I get home.

Does anyone know what "BBE" is?
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post #4 of 89 Old 06-23-2004, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jacobms1
Yes, most receivers can be set to alleviate the lag.

I just can't believe that I have to turn off a "feature" of the TV to make it work how it is supposed to. I haven't tried this "fix" yet but will when I get home.

Does anyone know what "BBE" is?

When you say "most", are you sure about that? I would think that "Most" would not allow you to delay the audio. I know my Kenwood 505 HTIB does not have it and I bought it just last year. My understanding is that only newer and more expensive AV receivers have this ability. If I'm wrong, I'm glad. Maybe I've missed a secret delay setting.

~ Scott LNT5265F, PS3, JBL-CS480, HR20-100

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post #5 of 89 Old 06-23-2004, 11:54 AM
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Even so...it's still not a real fix for the problem. Delaying the audio from your system doesn't resolve the flaw with the TV...you're just compensating for it. I'm not satisfied with that "solution".

Quote:
Originally posted by spinnergy
When you say "most", are you sure about that? I would think that "Most" would not allow you to delay the audio. I know my Kenwood 505 HTIB does not have it and I bought it just last year. My understanding is that only newer and more expensive AV receivers have this ability. If I'm wrong, I'm glad. Maybe I've missed a secret delay setting.
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post #6 of 89 Old 06-23-2004, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry about that "most". The several receivers that I have had experience with have allowed for a delay setting but I don't know the % of current receivers that offer that feature.

Either way I think it should not be a problem. If the TV speakers aren't going to work correctly why even include them? Shave another couple $$$ off the price and ship it without speakers!
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post #7 of 89 Old 06-23-2004, 12:23 PM
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They are completely full of **** when they tell you they have never heard of the smudge issue, I have talked to at least 6 people from samsung about my smudge issues including the services manager and supervisor. What was the name of the person you spoke with?
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post #8 of 89 Old 06-23-2004, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by TH3_FRB
Even so...it's still not a real fix for the problem. Delaying the audio from your system doesn't resolve the flaw with the TV...you're just compensating for it. I'm not satisfied with that "solution".
I'm especially dissatisfied with that solution, as I'm a gamer and creating delay in the audio domain leaves me with audio/video sync, but the delay is still apparent when using buttons from the controller. Why can't they just fix this? I'm sick of hearing Samsung say "well just delay your audio" because that is NOT a fix, that just makes it worse for people like me.
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post #9 of 89 Old 06-23-2004, 12:29 PM
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Evil-Rage, are you getting gaming lags on your HLP, or do you have a HLN? Do you have lag/sync issues with any other inputs (SD, HD, DVD, etc)? Just curious. Do all gamers notice the lag, or is it just with certain games or on certain platforms?
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post #10 of 89 Old 06-23-2004, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Xzerion-
I don't have the name of the CSR but it was a guy (I know that helps!).

Evil-Rage & mtw76mtw
I have an xbox hooked up via HD pack to my HLP and have had no response issues between my button presses and on-screen actions. I play fairly graphic intensive games (Halo, R63, SCPT, Topspin,etc) and haven't had any of those types of response problems. Mine merely come from the audio trailing the video during shows, dvd, etc. It is most evident from the component connections (Samsung OTA HD tuner & Xbox) than the Svideo (Directivo) input. I have not been able to try the DVI or HDMI because I currently do not have any components with these connections. I have planned on getting a HD941 DVD player when they are released and also an HDTivo but am in no hurry at this time.
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post #11 of 89 Old 06-23-2004, 01:33 PM
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Turning off DNIE is bull. That won't work. BBE enhances the sound, kind of like a poor man's surround without the surrond.
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post #12 of 89 Old 06-23-2004, 01:48 PM
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I thought the delay was due to these new monitors having to do some much video processing while the audio passes right through. So pretty much the only solution is to either delay the audio as well or to speed up the video processing.

The confusing thing is that some people experience delays while other's don't. My understanding is that it is because of the way a signal is input into the monitor. Depending on what source you are using, it's processing ability, and how much further processing the monitor has to do, causes the varied video delays.

I would personally live with having my receiver add the necessary audio delay to sync with video delay, rather than having all the video processing enhancements turned off and living with a worse picture.

Ofcourse the optimum solution is faster video processing, but that's still in the future.
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post #13 of 89 Old 06-23-2004, 01:51 PM
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I have a HLN43W and I spoke with Samsung last week. They said they just came up with an internal part that will fix the problem. There is a waiting list for it and I just asked for a refund. They are sending a truck to pick it up,pack it and hand me a check for exactally what I paid for it 11 months ago. I just faxed them my sales slip and serial number ahead of time; no hassles at all! I will be waiting for the new models in August.
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post #14 of 89 Old 06-23-2004, 02:13 PM
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I'm going to cross-post this. Apologies for the BW for those that have seen it. It is important to understand that video processing delays are an industry-wide problem....and it is generally the "better quality" displays, ironically, that suffer the most.


Synching Lucy's lips with TV sound
By Junko Yoshida
April 19, 2004 (2:08 PM EDT)



PARIS — In movie theaters of yesteryear, it was not uncommon for the audio and picture to be out of synch, with the silver-screened actors' mouths moving and sound coming a half-second or more later. It was amusing until it became annoying, and patrons invariably yelled out to the projectionist, who restarted the film.


Technology eventually solved that problem, but in a bizarre piece of irony, the technology has gotten so sophisticated that the problem has resurfaced.


TV makers have only recently begun to recognize the problem of audio information being asynchronous with lip movement on flat-panel TVs, realizing that it could become a bigger issue as sales of flat-panel displays start to take off on the consumer market.


Average CRTs do not have audio and video synchronization problems because the time needed to process video and audio — thousandths of a second — is about the same, said Stefan Hepp, director of marketing of consumer audio at Micronas GmbH (Freiburg, Germany). But when advanced TVs, LCDs and plasma displays add enhanced picture-improvement functions like deinterlacing, motion-adaptive conversion and scaling, the result is video processing that takes more time than audio processing, he said. So audio processing time must be adjusted to match the video.


Observers estimate that two-thirds of flat panels — except for low-end versions — will need a lip-synching device.


Some display vendors are said to be unaware of the potential problem and some simply prefer to deny it. Others, forced to look more closely, have just started, reluctantly, to acknowledge the lip-voice lag. That could blow into a bigger issue among consumers, Hepp cautioned, after "consumer test magazines begin to make measurements on the audio and video asynchronous problem."


Paul Martin, marketing manager for digital TV systems at Philips Semiconductors, agreed. Video-processing delays "started to become a problem on LCD displays recently," he said. While LCD displays could introduce video delays with 15- to 20-millisecond response times, memory-based video-processing algorithms, often used in mid-to high-end displays, could also add visible video delays, he explained. Combine the two and, "You could have a considerable delay in video — more than 100 milliseconds in some cases."


While the large high-end PDP or LCD panel markets can certainly afford an additional chip or high-end SoC with audio delay functions, the real emerging battleground is the midrange LCD or PDP market, where the cost adder for a 30- or 40-inch flat panel is not trivial and where the technological problem (or cost of the solution) could stall a promising market.


Micronas' Hepp cited "motion-adaptive conversion," "scaling" and "deinterlacing" as three main sources of video delays built into TV electronics. He also said that some plasma displays, which need to put data into internal memory before lighting the panel, could introduce 20 to 60 milliseconds of delay. Overall system-level video delay can vary among flat-panel displays, because system vendors often mix different types of scalers or deinterlacers.


The industry does not agree, however, on the threshold at which audio/video asynchronization becomes a problem. How many milliseconds will it take a consumer to notice that Lucy's lips aren't catching up to her words? And how long before the consumer gets irked?


A test by a German university late last year found viewers began to notice things were "a little strange" at 20 ms, said Hepp. A 30-ms delay began to irritate them. Beyond 30 ms, they said, "I don't want to have this on my TV."


Meanwhile, Philips' Martin believes the delay only becomes noticeable at 100 ms. While no objective data is available, Philips, reportedly in consultation with customers, has decided a 50-ms delay is the threshold. "When the delay is below 50 ms, nobody will be able to see it," Martin said.


Meanwhile, iSuppli Corp.'s principal analyst, Shyam Nagrani, cited a far lower number. "It can be a big problem if the deinterlacing delay is greater than one field, i.e., 16.6 ms," Shyam said. "Different deinterlacers use two, three, four or five fields. Most of the deinterlacers use only two fields. It means that the delay is little more than one field."


Micronas will introduce two devices, both leveraging on-chip RAM to delay audio information to keep lip movements in synch. One is a programmable delay function integrated onto the company's Multistandard Sound Processor family. The other, a standalone audio delay chip, integrates a controller and RAM.


Micronas targets the fast-growing, mainstream flat-panel TV market segment with its Multistandard Sound Processor chip, called MSP 44/46xyK, featuring the new on-chip delay functionality. Delay time can be programmed to up to 80 ms (mono) or 40 ms (stereo), the company said.


If longer delays are needed, Micronas' Hepp said, OEMs can use a new standalone audio delay IC, called MAD 4868A. It can function as a companion chip to Micronas' sound processor or anyone's audio DSP. The configurable delay time in such a setup is between 680 ms (mono) and 85 ms (eight channels). To optimize cost, there is no active component on the MAD 4868A, Hepp said.


Alternatively, OEMs can address lip sync with separate chips — an external RAM and a RAM controller. "That would require as many as 40 connecting wires to connect the two. There are also significant EMC issues," Hepp said. Both chips are available in samples today with volumes scheduled for early summer.


While Micronas has taken the on-chip RAM approach to delay the audio and solve the lip-synching problem, there are different approaches.


Philips, for one, "fixed the problem," said Martin, via a system-level design by tweaking video enhancement software to minimize delay while adding a new feature — which automatically delays audio to match video — to its high-end Nexperia Home Entertainment Engine: the PNX8550. The IC, unveiled last year, is a system-on-chip TV that supports all digital and analog TV standards; CRT, LCD and plasma displays; 100-Hz progressive-scan video; high-definition video decode and display and many picture-enhancing features. Because audio/video processing is on the same chip, sharing the same memory, Philips did not have to integrate more memory for audio delay, Martin said. "Although we haven't heavily advertised it, lip-synching is one of the features on PNX8550."


Digital TVs using PNX8550 are expected to reach the consumer market later this year.


Meanwhile, there's an even simpler solution, said iSuppli's Shyam. That is "to use two-field deinterlacing where the video quality is almost as good as three- or four-field processing." Most customers could not tell the difference between two- or three-field processing, Shyam said. "So in the interests of costs and complexity we stuck with two-field deinterlacing."



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post #15 of 89 Old 06-23-2004, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mtw76mtw
Evil-Rage, are you getting gaming lags on your HLP, or do you have a HLN? Do you have lag/sync issues with any other inputs (SD, HD, DVD, etc)? Just curious. Do all gamers notice the lag, or is it just with certain games or on certain platforms?
I have an HLP. I notice the lag on PS2 games, but not Xbox games. The theory here is that the Xbox converts some games to 480p or 720p, so the TV skips the faroudja and only scales the picture, causing less (barely noticable, but they're still there) delays. The PS2, on the other hand, does not have a wide range of games that are non-interlaced. I tried playing SOCOM Navy Seals, and apparently the game is 480p, and I don't believe I am experiencing any lag there, but that may just be the placebo effect. I spoke to someone at Samsung earlier today and he kept telling me that the TV's video processing is causing the delay, that it's expected, and that there's no way around it, it's caused because of the technology used by the TV to get the awesome picture you get. Personally, I think that's BS, I don't care how good the technology is, if it causes visible lag on my PS2, it's crap, because my 27" tube TV doesn't do that even a little.

Quote:
Originally posted by jacobms1
Evil-Rage & mtw76mtw
I have an xbox hooked up via HD pack to my HLP and have had no response issues between my button presses and on-screen actions. I play fairly graphic intensive games (Halo, R63, SCPT, Topspin,etc) and haven't had any of those types of response problems. Mine merely come from the audio trailing the video during shows, dvd, etc. It is most evident from the component connections (Samsung OTA HD tuner & Xbox) than the Svideo (Directivo) input. I have not been able to try the DVI or HDMI because I currently do not have any components with these connections. I have planned on getting a HD941 DVD player when they are released and also an HDTivo but am in no hurry at this time.
I have the Monster cable Component cable, which bypasses the Xbox Advanced A/V pack, and goes straight from the Xbox A/V out port to Component in and optical in on my receiver. No lag there either. I don't have anything else hooked up other than my two PS2s, my Xbox, both via component, and my Samsung 841 via DVI/optical There is no lag on the 841, but when I explained that to the guy at Samsung, he told me that's because DVI doesn't use the processing that the other inputs do. Huh?
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post #16 of 89 Old 06-23-2004, 02:34 PM
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Wow, this is a potential deal breaker, I play enough PS/2 to require that whatever tv I buy display it well. Since I seem to hear most people complaining about this with the DLPs, particularly the Samsungs HLN and HLPs, I wonder if their choice of converters (the faroudja?) is a bit slower than others...

Thanks for this post, and the news article there. Glad I saw it.

"But this is HDTV, it's got better resolution than the real world!!"
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post #17 of 89 Old 06-23-2004, 03:36 PM
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from what i've been hearing, and reading on this thread and on the board, it appears that most of the more recent technologies all use upscalers, converters, picture processing techniques, and so on and so forth... DLP, LCD, plasma, everything with the exception of CRT, I would guess... and therefore the Samsung DLPs may not be the only sets that are plagued by this problem. People using their TVs for home theater can get by, either by increasing audio delay, etc. One suggestion was that the receiver processing the DD or DTS signal will take enough time to process the signal that it would almost equal the delay of the TV, in which case it is not noticable, or at least, less noticable.

However, it appears that gamers were left out of the scheme of things when it comes to the next generation of home theater and the more prevalent HD technologies. Because of the nature of games (interactive devices), the delay caused by all the equipment just causes a delay in response time from the controller.

I wonder if the other TV technologies and other TVs are suffering this same problem when playing games. I would venture to say yes, but I personally haven't gone and looked through, for example, the GWIII thread to see if there are any sync issues with consoles.
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post #18 of 89 Old 06-23-2004, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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So I tried the "fix" tonight but it did not do anything other than make my picture look worse (turn off DNIE). The sound field setting did nothing. Guess the set is going back to the store if I can't stomach to watch anything through the component inputs it's not going to do me much good.
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post #19 of 89 Old 06-24-2004, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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So I spoke with Samsung again today as there tip to turn off "DNIE" to solve my sync problem didn't work and I learned some very interesting information:

The "part" that they are using to fix the A/V sync issue in the HLN's recently became available in the April/May timeframe. I asked why my new HLP had the sync problem then and he responded that it was made prior to that release date! I verified with him that he realized I was talking about the brand new HLP model that hasn't even hit the shelf in most places and he said yes. He told me to look at my serial number. The 8th character in shows the year (x=2004, he didn't tell me any other years) and the next character is the month that it was produced (1-9 correspond to calendar months and A=Oct, B=Nov, and C=Dec). Mine is a 3 which means it was produced in March of 2004, 2 months prior to the "fix" part being released!!

He went on to tell me that they had been manufacturing them for several months as they expected to sell alot of units this year and didn't want to have supply issues as they did at some points with the HLN's.

Another interesting thing is he was pretty sure that the "upgrade as he called it" (the base model with the cablecard and tuner) in the 50" should hit shelves in the July/August timeframe.

Moral of this story is that they do have a fix for any unit with a sync issue, it requires them to come out and replace a "board or two", and any HLP with a Serial number of anything below #######X6###### has the possibility to exhibit the sync issue (back lower corner of TV to find SN).

As for me I will probably return my set rather than have my 2 week old set have a service call and search for one with a higher serial number. Otherwise I will get back in line and wait for another month or two.

For those of you interested the CSR's name was Jamie (male).

I am going to crosspost this in the HLN sync thread since I don't know how to make a link so if any mod wants to change it feel free, I just thought the HLN folks might find it valuable.
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post #20 of 89 Old 06-24-2004, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jacobms1
So I spoke with Samsung again today as there tip to turn off "DNIE" to solve my sync problem didn't work and I learned some very interesting information:

The "part" that they are using to fix the A/V sync issue in the HLN's recently became available in the April/May timeframe. I asked why my new HLP had the sync problem then and he responded that it was made prior to that release date! I verified with him that he realized I was talking about the brand new HLP model that hasn't even hit the shelf in most places and he said yes. He told me to look at my serial number. The 8th character in shows the year (x=2004, he didn't tell me any other years) and the next character is the month that it was produced (1-9 correspond to calendar months and A=Oct, B=Nov, and C=Dec). Mine is a 3 which means it was produced in March of 2004, 2 months prior to the "fix" part being released!!

He went on to tell me that they had been manufacturing them for several months as they expected to sell alot of units this year and didn't want to have supply issues as they did at some points with the HLN's.

Another interesting thing is he was pretty sure that the "upgrade as he called it" (the base model with the cablecard and tuner) in the 50" should hit shelves in the July/August timeframe.

Moral of this story is that they do have a fix for any unit with a sync issue, it requires them to come out and replace a "board or two", and any HLP with a Serial number of anything below #######X6###### has the possibility to exhibit the sync issue.

As for me I will probably return my set rather than have my 2 week old set have a service call and search for one with a higher serial number. Otherwise I will get back in line and wait for another month or two.

For those of you interested the CSR's name was Jamie (male).

I am going to crosspost this in the HLN sync thread since I don't know how to make a link so if any mod wants to change it feel free, I just thought the HLN folks might find it valuable.
Weird - my serial number is:

###X4#####D

the only X that appears is the 4th character - followed by a 4. Not sure why my X appears as the 4th character but it appears that I have an April '04 unit. Haven't noticed any snyc issues but haven't played a lot of PS2.
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post #21 of 89 Old 06-24-2004, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jacobms1
... and any HLP with a Serial number of anything below #######X6###### has the possibility to exhibit the sync issue.

For those of you interested the CSR's name was Jamie (male).
I wonder what Jamie at Samsung would make of this:

Model Code: HLP5063WX/XAA
Serial# 31EX4######

These numbers were taken from the small tag on the lower right side (viewed from the front) of the case near the front inputs. Could there be two serial numbers?

This number was on the Made in Korea label on the shipping box but wasn't identified as a serial number. It seems to fit Jamie's pattern.

Z0273IDX4#####

There has been no sign of sync problems from the first few DVD movies (component 1, 480i) or the SD evening news (Ant 1). There has been no chance to check HD yet.
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post #22 of 89 Old 06-24-2004, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by htwaits
I wonder what Jamie at Samsung would make of this:

Model Code: HLP5063WX/XAA
Serial# 31EX400059F

These numbers were taken from the small tag on the lower right side of the case near the front inputs. Could there be two serial numbers?
Mine is quite similiar - didn't want to post the whole thing but it starts out:

Model #: Exactly the same
Serial #: 31DX40####D

So maybe we're missing the first four digits or something, which would move the X to the 8th digit?? However I registered my serial # with Samsung online and it accepted it.

Eric
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post #23 of 89 Old 06-24-2004, 11:04 AM - Thread Starter
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the serial number he had me read to him was on the back of the TV. If you are facing the TV from the back it would be on the low righthand side. If you were facing the screen then it would be on the back lefthand side. It should be 15 characters long.
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post #24 of 89 Old 06-24-2004, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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FYI-

Mine is:
Model Code: HLP5063WX/XAA
Serial# Z02731DX300####
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post #25 of 89 Old 06-24-2004, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jacobms1
FYI-

Mine is:
Model Code: HLP5063WX/XAA
Serial# Z02731DX300####
I'm guessing when I go home and pull out my TV I will find a Z027 sitting right in front of the rest of my serial #. Dammit - April!!!
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post #26 of 89 Old 06-24-2004, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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X4 maybe ok since he said that the part became available in the late April early May timeframe. He just said that anything X6 would have the new part for sure, but he didn't know when the part got implemented in to the production process.

I notice the sync mainly through the component inputs, especially watching HD (and no, it's not the source!).
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post #27 of 89 Old 06-24-2004, 11:15 AM
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It looks like there are serial numbers in three locations.

My edited post.
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post #28 of 89 Old 06-24-2004, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jacobms1
X4 maybe ok since he said that the part became available in the late April early May timeframe. He just said that anything X6 would have the new part for sure, but he didn't know when the part got implemented in to the production process.

I notice the sync mainly through the component inputs, especially watching HD (and no, it's not the source!).
I sure hope so. Currently have my HD hooked up via DVI but my DVD is via component and haven't noticed any issues. Is it really obvious?? Like people's mouths are moving but the sound comes later?
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post #29 of 89 Old 06-24-2004, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by htwaits
It looks like there are serial numbers in three locations.

My edited post.
So how do you like your set so far? For some reason I was thinking you were in on the 56" PB.
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post #30 of 89 Old 06-24-2004, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by EricScott
So how do you like your set so far? For some reason I was thinking you were in on the 56" PB.
Yes I was, but this guy knocked on my door ... :)

I've had a HLP5063 "Open Box" since Monday with a option to trade it for the HLP5677 when they are available.

It's a set that was refused on delivery because of two tiny scratches on the silver trim of the bezel. As far as I can tell it was never plugged in.

So far we like it.
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