Official Toshiba H83/H84 CRT Thread - Page 96 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2851 of 2865 Old 12-11-2013, 08:55 AM
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I'm having the first problem with my 65H84 since buying it new and its a strange one. I'm having a problem with the HDMI input. I have 4 devices routed through an HDMI switching receiver. In order to eliminate the receiver, I tried hooking the devices straight to the tv and have also tried different cables. This is the result:

1. Playstation 3 (actually tried two different ones) - I get nothing over HDMI - no audio or video
2. HD Cable box - I get picture and audio for a split second then nothing.
3. HD-DVD player - I get the player's default "HD-DVD" logo and "Loading" but when the disc spools up and the movie should come on, I get nothing
4. XBox 360 - this is the weird one - it works *perfectly* and comes right up - audio and video

I've verified that each device is working perfectly by hooking to another tv and verified that each is outputting 1080i. I've tried the same cables between the two tvs, different ones, etc. I'm stumped - especially on the Xbox. Is there something different about them and how they output HDMI? I talked to a knowledgeable repair place and they're researching the problem, but agree that it doesn't make any sense. How is the Xbox working and how does the HDMI input partially work on two of the other devices? I love this tv and would hate to get rid of it because of parts availability or repair cost if the only solution is to shotgun it with all new PCB's. Has anyone seen anything similar with the HDMI port?
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post #2852 of 2865 Old 12-11-2013, 01:17 PM
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HDCP is rearing its ugly head again, looks like. I had a similar problem when trying to HU a cable box thru an HDMI switching Pioneer AVR. Was told by Pio that AVRs sometimes "look" like HD recording devices to the HDMI copyguard circuits (HDMI's only real claim to fame), shutting down the signal. That's why you see a pic for a second then it disappears - HDMI's anti-piracy circuits. Sure enough, going a different connection route it worked fine on component or when the HDMI was run directly to the TV, bypassing the AVR.

So you don't get pic even when running the HDMI directly to the TV, bypassing the AVR switching? Then perhaps something in the totally unnecessary and highly sophisticated - read that "cumbersome and lengthy and prone to difficulty" - HDMI circuits is causing the required handshake to break down. Hitachi had such trouble with their HDMI circuits that one of their entire boards had to be re-engineered and installed on location in all their units, costing them horrendous on-location technician service fees. Those service techs who were not in the loop usually didn't know to exchange the eeproms in the convergence circuits, replacing the new virgin (ie. blank) ones with the old already-successfully programmed ones before installing the replacement boards, and as a result had to set up the geometry and convergence entirely from scratch. IOW a nightmare waiting to happen, as very few repair service techs know didly about geometry and convergence.

eek.gif

If all else fails, the HD Fury series works wonders when your HDMI is giving you grief. Impeccable picture. I have a Mit 73" CRT whose HDMI circuit is total crap - delivers a mulchy pic, far inferior to its excellent component circuits. Mit did well when it was DVI but lost their edge the following year when they went to HDMI, so I use a Fury whenever I absolutely need HDMI, such as for upconverting SD 480i DVDs to 1080i inside the bluray player and outputting the 480i content as 1080i via HDMI. You don't need HDMI for anything else as long as your source device has component outputs. Your set's component inputs will give you the highest grade pic available on 1080i without any need for HDMI.

Component outputs of course cannot be found on new equipment today - component ouput has been outlawed now and we owners of pre-HDMI sets have been ground under and spat out by Big Brother - so if you have a bluray player with component output, shield that puppy from all potential buyers and hang onto it!

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post #2853 of 2865 Old 12-12-2013, 06:53 PM
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I was thinking the same thing regarding the hdcp. Looks like I've been able to prove it now too. I did some research on the xbox 360 and apparently it doesn't output hdcp with the operating system or games. So tonight I spooled up a DVD and bam - an error message stating no secure hdcp link found. So - am I correct in assuming that the hdcp circuitry would reside on the hdmi pcb that the cable plugs in to? It has a few cables going to a common interface pcb that the component and other analog inputs plug in to, so I'm assuming that the video signal is done with any hdcp-related functions by the time it's output to that board. If my assumptions are correct, the only question is parts related. My hdmi "module" is labeled mhdm01. The part is nla, but there's an mhdm01A available. I'll have to find out if the two are compatible as the sets listed as compatible with the A part number are all dlp's.

-EDIT- I was never able to find out of the mdhm01A is compatible. If anyone can find out, please let me know.
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post #2854 of 2865 Old 12-12-2013, 09:07 PM
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Fair warning - all fixed pixel devices in today's arena, including dlp, are 1080p, not i.

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post #2855 of 2865 Old 12-13-2013, 04:04 AM
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Fair warning - all fixed pixel devices in today's arena, including dlp, are 1080p, not i.

These aren't fixed pixel, and I thought were something weird like 576p???
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post #2856 of 2865 Old 12-13-2013, 08:19 AM
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Hey, Walt! Long time no see! smile.gif

Toshiba CRTs yes. I was speaking to the mention of dlp''s in the last line of that post. DLPs are definitely fixed pixel.

Talk about a blast from the past! I remember now. The Tosh's converted their 480 to 540, so it would be exactly half of 1080. Of course you have to trust their upconversion algorith for doing so, rather than having true 480p. You don't. You have 540p instead, on all 480i/p material. True 480p is gone forever on those Toshiba units with that design.

The benefit is that if you supertweak your 1080i on its image structure - focusing, geometry and convergence - you don't have to do anything to your "faux 480", or 540. It's covered in the supertightening of your 1080i, and both 1080i and 540p wind up supertight just from supertightening your 1080i alone.

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post #2857 of 2865 Old 12-18-2013, 10:46 AM
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All is well now with my 65H84. I went on the assumption that all the electronics needed to resolve the hdcp handshake resided on the HDMI board and picked up a used one on ebay for $20 shipped. Popped it in today and I'm back in business.

Btw - for future reference if anyone is dealing with a similar problem - it appears that the HDMI board is no longer available new. If the part number has been superceded by one I wasn't able to find, please drop me a PM and let me know. I may need another one in the future.
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I was thinking the same thing regarding the hdcp. Looks like I've been able to prove it now too. I did some research on the xbox 360 and apparently it doesn't output hdcp with the operating system or games. So tonight I spooled up a DVD and bam - an error message stating no secure hdcp link found. So - am I correct in assuming that the hdcp circuitry would reside on the hdmi pcb that the cable plugs in to? It has a few cables going to a common interface pcb that the component and other analog inputs plug in to, so I'm assuming that the video signal is done with any hdcp-related functions by the time it's output to that board. If my assumptions are correct, the only question is parts related. My hdmi "module" is labeled mhdm01. The part is nla, but there's an mhdm01A available. I'll have to find out if the two are compatible as the sets listed as compatible with the A part number are all dlp's.
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post #2858 of 2865 Old 12-18-2013, 10:55 AM
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Good to hear, that the same board is common to both formats - CRT and DLP. There's really no reason to re-invent the wheel, but some manufacturers do, as we all know ... If not, component circuits in the newer digital formats would not have all gone to slop like they have. They would have used the completely excellent component designs of before HDMI. But do they? Not to my experience...

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post #2859 of 2865 Old 12-18-2013, 11:22 AM
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Good to hear, that the same board is common to both formats - CRT and DLP.

Actually, I still don't know for sure that it is - but I would like to, as I will probably need another one day. I wasn't able to find anyone that could definitively tell me either way. I went with a safer bet on buying a used one from another "H84" series set that carried the same part number.
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post #2860 of 2865 Old 07-15-2015, 06:28 PM
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BUMP - w00t w00t!!!

Hey guys, I wanted to give a BIG thanks to whoever wrote the cleaning guide (Walt?) for 46H84 Toshiba RPTV's! I've had mine since 2003 and over the last few years dust was trapped inside the set on the sides and it was getting distracting. I've been meaning to clean it forever but never got motivated since I only noticed the dirt on lighter backgrounds (whites especially!).

So, today I dug up my word document for cleaning the set I got somewhere out of this thread and went to town. The hardest part was probably removing the speaker panel front cover since it's attached pretty tight. Once I got that off it wasn't bad at all. I cleaned the inside with a micro fiber cloth and soapy water spray bottle. I also cleaned off the 3 lens. Now my set looks like new again some 12 years later! Amazing set and I'm glad I've kept it after all these years and TONS of moving!

Here's to all of us that are keeping it old school and not disposing of perfectly good working RPTVs!

A few pictures of my set taken apart.
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~46H84 Used for output laptop to HDMI, Gaming w/PS3, HDTV programming and movies occasionally. Favorite HD Channel:Velocity~
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post #2861 of 2865 Old 07-15-2015, 09:09 PM
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Good job! Please share this over at my Don't Dump your CRT RPTV! thread, where we all cherish our sets too. It has been going strong since 2006 and hit a million posts last year:

Don't dump your CRT RPTV!

Have you done the deeper optics cleaning? If not, you are not done. There are 10 optical surfaces - of the 28 total - that grow incredibly dirty over the years because of the high voltage. If you have only cleaned the mirror and lens tops, you are less than halfway there, to your set becoming sparkling again. The lens barrel bottoms and the CRT coolant covers become intensely dirty too, because of the air gap between them combining with the static cling caused by the HV. There is a special way of inspecting them that shows up those extra layers of contaminants, which usually can't be seen with just normal examination. Doing those final 6 optical surfaces completes the picture and restores your set to brand new condition on its light path, (aka projection path).

Microfibre cloths, BTW, are good for the sides of your optical cavity, but I hope you are not using them for cleaning the delicate plastic optical surfaces. Or the front surface mirror. They are not absorbent in the least, and just push the wettened dirt around and leave the residue to dry.

If you are interested in the techniques I have developed over the last 20 years, since before HD got here, contact me. They allow for many, many cleanings, which should be done every year without fail. All without ANY damage nor ANY wear and tear on those delicate optical surfaces. I can tell you don't know my methods at this point because you use microfibre cloths, which I never use.

Unless you used them just on the sides of your set inside the optical cavity. That would be fine. But never on those delicate surfaces, because it does not absorb well at all. Just mushes the wettened dirt around in there and leaves its residue to dry in swirls. With my methods, no swirls and no damage. Ever.

Remember, one mistake on those delicate plastic surfaces, and game over. You can't get scratches, or even worse scuffs - thousands of tiny scratches at once - out again once they are in. They won't polish out. Plastic surfaces are incredibly unforgiving. Any damage done to them is permanent. My methods will get you past all that, keep you from stepping on any land mines.

So glad to meet a fellow afficianado, tho!



b

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post #2862 of 2865 Old 07-15-2015, 09:22 PM
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Good job! Please share this over at my Don't Dump your CRT RPTV! thread, where we all cherish our sets too. This thread has been running since 2006 and hit a million posts last year.

Don't dump your CRT RPTV!

Have you done the deeper optics cleaning? If not you are not done. There are 10 optical surfaces - of the 28 total - that grow incredibly dirty over the years because of the high voltage. If you have only cleaned the mirror and lens tops, you are less than halfway there, to your set becoming sparkling again. The lens barrel bottoms and the CRT coolant covers become intensely dirty too, because of the air gap between them. Doing those final 6 optical surfaces completes the picture and restores your set to brand new condition on its light path.

Microfibre cloths, BTW, are good for the sides of your optical cavity, but I hope you are not using them for cleaning the delicate plastic surfaces. Or the front surface mirror. They are not absorbent in the least, and just push the wettened dirt around and leave the residue to dry.

If you are interested in the techniques I have developed over the last 20 years, since before HD got here, contact me. They allow for many, many cleanings, which should be done every year without fail. All without ANY damage nor ANY wear and tear on those delicate optical surfaces.

Remember, one mistake on those delicate plastic surfaces, and game over. You can't get scratches, or even worse scuffs - thousands of tiny scratches at once - out once they are in. Can't polish them out. Plastic surfaces are incredibly unforgiving.

So glad to meet a fellow afficianado, tho!



b
Thanks Bob! Appreciate your excellent feedback and information. I didn't even clean the mirror because amazingly it didn't seem to have any dust on it from what I noticed. My main concern was the dust that was stuck on the middle sides of my screen. I was a little concerned about cleaning the lens and inside screen with my micro slightly dampened fiber cloth but I was very gentle and had a flashlight shining on the lens as I gently whipped them clean of dust. Between doing those two things my set looks much better! But, now that I know how to take it apart I might look into the finer cleaning you mentioned. I'll also check out that thread and post there. Thanks man!

~46H84 Used for output laptop to HDMI, Gaming w/PS3, HDTV programming and movies occasionally. Favorite HD Channel:Velocity~
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post #2863 of 2865 Old 07-15-2015, 10:03 PM
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Oh there is dust on your mirror all right. Take a strong flashlight in there and shine it at a steep angle to the mirror itself and the dust - actually smoke, on non-gravity bound surfaces - will show up big time. Scrape the back of a finger knuckle across it just a bit, and the smokiness will part to black in that one little area.

I have my ways...



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post #2864 of 2865 Old 07-16-2015, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
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Oh there is dust on your mirror all right. Take a strong flashlight in there and shine it at a steep angle to the mirror itself and the dust - actually smoke, on non-gravity bound surfaces - will show up big time. Scrape the back of a finger knuckle across it just a bit, and the smokiness will part to black in that one little area.

I have my ways...



b
I had my flashlight shining on the mirror and it didn't look dusty to me. I suppose I should've checked and cleaned it with my cloth! I might have to get around to taking it apart again in the next few weeks. For now, it's much better than it was thou!

~46H84 Used for output laptop to HDMI, Gaming w/PS3, HDTV programming and movies occasionally. Favorite HD Channel:Velocity~
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post #2865 of 2865 Old Yesterday, 08:05 AM
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You have not shined that flashlight as directed - at a steep angle, almost touching the mirror itself as you shine it from one side of the mirror to the other, almost flatly. In a darkened room, of course, and with the set off.

You shine it from the left to the right or vice versa, at such a steep angle that there would be no way of getting hit in the eyes by your flashlight. It literally bounces the light off the mirror's surface with its beam being almost parallel to the surface, as if bouncing a flat stone across a lake. And with your eyes out of the line of fire.

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