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post #31 of 658 Old 08-22-2004, 02:01 PM
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Well, I got the 57s715 and it is going back. HD and SD TV looked wonderful but I did have some serious problems.

1. The screen does have too much glare for my tastes
2. DVDs look horrible. There is a lot of noise and edge halos. Everything looks "processed".

The dvd thing is the big problem for me as 90% of what I watch are dvds. I attribute it to the upconversion.

I have turned of all of the edge enhancement and picture enhancement options and calibrated using DVE. I also tried changing from 1080i to 540p and doing the upconversion in my PC dvd player. Still sucks.

THEN

It died the day I got it.

I am sending it back and investigating Toshiba. I had one before and was happy. I know it does 540p upconversion too so this time I am going to put it through the wringer at the store.
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post #32 of 658 Old 08-22-2004, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by HyPyke
Well, I got the 57s715 and it is going back. HD and SD TV looked wonderful but I did have some serious problems.

1. The screen does have too much glare for my tastes
2. DVDs look horrible. There is a lot of noise and edge halos. Everything looks "processed".

The dvd thing is the big problem for me as 90% of what I watch are dvds. I attribute it to the upconversion.

I have turned of all of the edge enhancement and picture enhancement options and calibrated using DVE. I also tried changing from 1080i to 540p and doing the upconversion in my PC dvd player. Still sucks.

What DVD player are you using?

Did you turn off the Edge Enhancement? What is the sharpness set to?

I've played back DVDs from my HTPC via nVDVD 1920x1080i (DVI to HDMI) and via my MyHD-100 card via component (480p and 1080i) and I didn't find any problems with noise or edge halos on DVDs.

I've found that some DVDs look pretty close to HDTV.
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post #33 of 658 Old 08-22-2004, 02:31 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by HyPyke
Well, I got the 57s715 and it is going back. HD and SD TV looked wonderful but I did have some serious problems.

1. The screen does have too much glare for my tastes
2. DVDs look horrible. There is a lot of noise and edge halos. Everything looks "processed"....

THEN

It died the day I got it.

It seems possible that whatever "killed" your TV on day one may also have been responsible for the poor dvd play.

As I don't have this set, I am interested to see what others who do have to say.
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post #34 of 658 Old 08-22-2004, 03:27 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Stereodude
What DVD player are you using?

Did you turn off the Edge Enhancement? What is the sharpness set to?

I've played back DVDs from my HTPC via nVDVD 1920x1080i (DVI to HDMI) and via my MyHD-100 card via component (480p and 1080i) and I didn't find any problems with noise or edge halos on DVDs.

I've found that some DVDs look pretty close to HDTV.

I used my toshiba prog scan player via component, My HTPC via component and DVI (component via x-card)

I turned sharpness down to between 30 and 43 at times. Edge enhancement was always off. Don't get me wrong it is not as if something was wrong but not up to the quality I was used to. I was very impressed with SD and HD. The dvd image was just digital and not as filmlike as my old Toshi'. Lots of noise. It is possible that whatever killed the set caused the dvd issue but I doubt it. I also had it plugged into a beefy APC ups by itself yet the convergance grid was jumping and vibrating like crazy. The 51 and 57 at the store did the same thing.
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post #35 of 658 Old 08-22-2004, 05:30 PM
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I have a Hitachi 51S715 and have been viewing DVDs from my HTPC and they are very, very good.

I agree with the glare, though. It is the one big negative for me with this set.
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post #36 of 658 Old 08-22-2004, 06:54 PM
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I have had the 57s715 for almost a week now. DVD hooked up with progressive component gives me great PQ. I watched Alien last night and I had always thought of it as kind of a dark movie, however this time the dark scenes were filled with wonderful glistening bright highlights that made the experience awesome. My DirectTV ultimate TV picture for SD is pretty good for some channels but some channels stink. Very jaggy and I even saw some motion blur. MY connection for the SD is only an S cable so hopefully If I upgrade to a DirectTV HD receiver with component or HDMI then it will improve the SD signal.
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post #37 of 658 Old 08-22-2004, 10:09 PM - Thread Starter
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My set is too blue in the 30 IRE and especially the 20 IRE and below range. It's pretty close to D6500 in the brighter greys. How do I go about adjusting the blue for only those lower IRE intensities?
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post #38 of 658 Old 08-23-2004, 12:11 AM
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It's been awhile since I've posted anything, but I did get my 57s715 this past Monday. But we also started moving that day, and I had no idea what I was in for. Between working a regular job, and moving I had no time to sit down and really check it out.

Tonight was the first time that I've had some time to really look at it, and I still can really only give you first impressions type of an opinion.

First of all it looks great right out of the box. I have it hooked up to DirecTV via a HDTivo. HD looks fantastic, and SD looks pretty good on most. I've only played a few DVD's, but these look great as well. At first I thought it looked soft, but I think I had something set wrong on my DVD player, and I had all the enhancements on. Not sure changing which one helped the most, but it looks better now.

The only thing I've really done is turn down the Contrast and turn enhancements off. I'm not a videophile, and this is my first HD set so I'm a complete newbie. I'm having it ISF calibrated in 11 days so I'll know more then.

I was concerned that I'd be distracted by the silver cabinet, but that's not a problem at all. I think the reason it isn't a problem is because there is a black strip all around the screen, and this seems to "frame" the picture so that all your attention is there and you never notice the silver until you turn it off.

Viewing angles are very good. While not as good as a GWIII it isn't that far behind.

I would say glare is a minimal problem. I have blinds in all of the windows in the room so even during the day it isn't a problem. At night it is better of course to not have the light on directly in the area where the TV is. But my kitchen is adjoining my family room, and I can have all the kitchen lights on I want and it's no problem.

Don't ask me about the whole scaling and upconversion thing because I have no idea. I just transmit everything from the HD Tivo in 1080i and be done with it.

Overall I'm very pleased, and keep in mind this is just out of the box. I went back to a CC after having it for a few days, and looking around at the LCd's, HLP's, etc., I was very glad I made the choice I did.

As I get more time to play with it, and especially after having it ISF calibrated I'll be posting more.

Walter

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post #39 of 658 Old 08-23-2004, 03:59 AM
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WalterC try to get atleast 100 hours on the set before haveing it ISF'ed.
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post #40 of 658 Old 08-23-2004, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Is there a "burn-in" or "break-in" period for a CRT where the convergence will settle in and stop shifting every few hours.

I notice that my set's convergence drifts over time. I have been leaving it on most of the time when I'm home and awake, and every few hours I have to make a few tweaks to the convergence grid to keep things tightly aligned. After powering it off for a few hours and turning it back on it takes about 30 minutes for it to get back close to the point I left it at when I turned it on. However, it isn't quite the same as when it was powered off.

Does this eventually stop?
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post #41 of 658 Old 08-23-2004, 08:52 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Stereodude
My set is too blue in the 30 IRE and especially the 20 IRE and below range. It's pretty close to D6500 in the brighter greys.

How are you determining this?
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post #42 of 658 Old 08-23-2004, 09:03 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Stereodude
I had the front panel open today and was messing with the focus and screen controls.

It is generally wise to never touch the SCREEN pots. All adjustments to grayscale should be done in the service menu where you can write down your initial values. DRVs are for the upper IREs and CUTs are for the lower.
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post #43 of 658 Old 08-23-2004, 09:34 AM
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Originally posted by promike
Stereodude, You can go to Menu, Channel Manager and turn off scan for each channel (same as deleting). The add channel feature is not necessary since scanned channels are automatically added. If it can't scan it, there's no need to add it.

Unless you're pulling in HDTV OTA, and your antenna is on a rotor.

Am I correct in understanding that there is no way to manually add channels with this set? Barring that, can one select a channel directly via number?

Thanks,

Matt
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post #44 of 658 Old 08-23-2004, 09:36 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Marc Alexander
DRVs are for the upper IREs and CUTs are for the lower.

How about SCREEN pots? One person said they are coarse DRVs for upper IREs in the other thread.
But I thought they are similar to CUTs for lower IREs. Someone else said it just affects all IREs. Could you confirm it? Thanks!
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post #45 of 658 Old 08-23-2004, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by C.Y.
How about SCREEN pots? One person said they are coarse DRVs for upper IREs in the other thread.
But I thought they are similar to CUTs for lower IREs. Someone else said it just affects all IREs. Could you confirm it? Thanks!

They definitely affect all IREs.
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post #46 of 658 Old 08-23-2004, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by Marc Alexander
It is generally wise to never touch the SCREEN pots. All adjustments to grayscale should be done in the service menu where you can write down your initial values. DRVs are for the upper IREs and CUTs are for the lower.

I would think that if the DRVs are for the upper and the CUTs are for the lower, the SCREEN pots would be a good tool to set the middle. Set the SCREEN pots to give the middle IRE values to give a D6500 balance and then use the DRVs and CUTs to dial in the two ends of the scale.

I only changed the Red SCREEN control and I'm pretty sure I put it back to about where it was.
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post #47 of 658 Old 08-23-2004, 10:10 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Stereodude
I would think that if the DRVs are for the upper and the CUTs are for the lower, the SCREEN pots would be a good tool to set the middle. Set the SCREEN pots to give the middle IRE values to give a D6500 balance and then use the DRVs and CUTs to dial in the two ends of the scale.

It sounds good, but unfornately is not the case. What test equipment are you using to determing D65000 balance?

The SCREEN pots are for setting black cutoff and are essentially the same as the CUTs in the SM. The CUTs and DRVs are interactive so you will see an effect over the entire IRE range.

You should avoid touching the screen POTS as they are so sensitive it is impossible to put it right back where it was, which is why you should use the service menu only.
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post #48 of 658 Old 08-23-2004, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by Marc Alexander
How are you determining this?

Well dark sections of the screen looked blue to my eyes for starters. So I set about trying to quantify it.

Laugh if you want at my method, but I took several pictures of the TV with my Canon EOS 10D camera on a tripod set dead center to the screen from about 9-10 feet back. It was during late night with all the lights off so there was no other light to affect the measurements. I took pictures of a greyscale ramp (from white to black), and 20, 30, and 40IRE paterns.

I took the files from the camera ( CRW / Canon RAW files) and converted them to 16 bit per channel TIFF files and forced a 6500K color setting during the conversion. Then I can examine the RGB data in the file for the grey on the screen.

I realize my EOS 10D may not be as accurate as thousands of dollars worth of test equipment, but the numbers it puts out correlate with what what I see. After all, a camera is supposed to capture color and luma accurately. When the camera says I have a good D6500 balance to a grey, it looks very neutral to my eye.

Ultimately it may not get me exactly to D6500, but I should be able to get the color much more uniform at all IRE levels the with nothing.
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post #49 of 658 Old 08-23-2004, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by Marc Alexander
The SCREEN pots are for setting black cutoff and are essentially the same as the CUTs in the SM. The CUTs and DRVs are interactive so you will see an effect over the entire IRE range.

You should avoid touching the screen POTS as they are so sensitive it is impossible to put it right back where it was, which is why you should use the service menu only.

Turning the SCREEN pots most definitely affects all IRE levels, so how can they be just for setting the black cutoff?

So, given that I can't necessarily set it back the way it was, what is my best strategy? Dial the blue back (which I didn't change) to get more neutral dark greys, or leave them as is and dial the blue down with the CUTs?
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post #50 of 658 Old 08-23-2004, 10:52 AM
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Stereodude, your method is quite interesting and definitely scientific. Probably much better than just working by eye.

Like I said, the SREEN pots and CUTs are essentially the same (sets the cutoff voltage for each CRT). The problem is that the SCREEN pots, CUTs, and DRVs do affect the entire IRE range as you observed...they are simply centered at the LOW and HIGH end of the range. This means that you must go through several iterations to get a grayscale close to D6500 across the entire IRE range. Let's say you get 30 IRE at D6500 then move to 80 IRE and get that a D6500 by adjusting DRVs...when you go back to 30 IRE you will find that it probably is not where you left it. This is why a constantly updating test device is needed for calibrating grayscale (and it still can take hours). It may literally take you forever to get things right using your camera method.
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post #51 of 658 Old 08-23-2004, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally posted by Marc Alexander
This is why a constantly updating test device is needed for calibrating grayscale (and it still can take hours). It may literally take you forever to get things right using your camera method.

I guess we'll see what happens I think I can rough tune by eye and verify/final tweak with the camera.

For now I will leave the SCREEN pots alone and use the service menu to tweak unless I run out of adjustment with the CUTs.

On a slightly unrelated note, how do you get the set into the service menu while it's warmed up. If you power it on cold into the service menu it will have to sit for a while to warm up with the service menu on the screen (risking burn in?)?
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post #52 of 658 Old 08-23-2004, 12:38 PM
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If it is already warmed up, you don't have to wait for it to warm up if you simply powered it down and right back up to get into SM.
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post #53 of 658 Old 08-23-2004, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by Marc Alexander
If it is already warmed up, you don't have to wait for it to warm up if you simply powered it down and right back up to get into SM.

Isn't it bad to cycle the power quickly (or does not matter with CRTs)?
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post #54 of 658 Old 08-23-2004, 02:20 PM
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Anyone have a 57s715 in the ATL area that I might be able to take a look at? I would love to be able to determine if it is my set or if I am just seeing stuff that other people ignore.
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post #55 of 658 Old 08-23-2004, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I got it dialed in about as close as I can at the moment. It's certainly not D6500 across the board. It's about as centered around D6500 as I can get it for now. The black's don't look blue anymore, so I'm happy.
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post #56 of 658 Old 08-23-2004, 07:25 PM
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Stereodude,

If the grayscale looks good in the low IRE range, then go back to your user brightness control and check it again.
Changing the CUTS affects the brightness.

It's good practice to write down any SM values for later reference if they're changed.

Good viewing.

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post #57 of 658 Old 08-23-2004, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the tip.

I checked the brightness again and found out it needed adjusting. 43% was dead on last night, and after adjusting the color balance, 50% is now dead on.

This set just keep looking better and better.
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post #58 of 658 Old 08-23-2004, 08:31 PM
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Quote:


I would think that if the DRVs are for the upper and the CUTs are for the lower, the SCREEN pots would be a good tool to set the middle. Set the SCREEN pots to give the middle IRE values to give a D6500 balance and then use the DRVs and CUTs to dial in the two ends of the scale.

The Screen pots are identical to CUTS. However, you should not randomly adjust these as it can cause damage.

Stereodude,

I don't understand the camera method. You took pictures of a grayscale and forced them to D65K. How do you know that was accurate? Are you trying to use the computer display as an optical comparator? How do you know the computer display is D65K?


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post #59 of 658 Old 08-23-2004, 09:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by gambrelw
The Screen pots are identical to CUTS. However, you should not randomly adjust these as it can cause damage.

Stereodude,

I don't understand the camera method. You took pictures of a grayscale and forced them to D65K. How do you know that was accurate? Are you trying to use the computer display as an optical comparator? How do you know the computer display is D65K?

By the way, I can tell from your spreadsheet your values won't produce D65K.

Bill

1) The spreadsheet aren't mine. I've already said in another thread I don't think the method is correct.

In short, I can take a picture of a grey object with my camera and the camera will tell me what color temperature that object is. Further I can process the raw data from the camera's imager on the PC and force the data to be interpreted as if white were 6500K. If after forcing a D6500 balance, the TV was generating a true D6500 grey on the screen it would have an even amount of each color. For example I would see 128R, 128G, and 128B and know that it was D6500. If I see it has 120R, 128G, and 135B I know I need to bump the red and drop the blue a little to get to D6500.

I don't know with absolute certainty that the camera is accurate. It has a reputation of being quite faithful in color reproduction. However, what I do know with absolute certainty is that by using the camera I can make the TV much more consistent in it's color reproduction at different IRE values.

The bottom line is that I was able to remove the blue cast at low IRE values and align the color much more consistently across a variety of IRE values much more accurately than trying to tune by eye and it didn't cost me anything beyond some time.
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post #60 of 658 Old 08-23-2004, 09:06 PM
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I just realized the spreadsheet was done by someone else

As far as the camera, I would like to see some data. Sounds interesting, but there are a lot of factors involved that could affect the end results. Hell, if this works it would be a great benefit as the pods many are using with digital displays aren't fairing to well.

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