Sony KDF-55/60XS955 owners thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 2853 Old 02-20-2005, 08:17 PM
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Let's see if I understand correctly. There are three (maybe more?) people who have stated that they are seeing something akin to SDE and SSE on their GWIVs, but they are observing it at their viewing distances and are absolutely convinced that they aren't seeing SDE and SSE? In addition, all three individuals appear to have completely ruled out the sources as the cause of this problem? Further, utilizing all available video adjustments on their GWIVs does not resolve the problem?

Sounds like a flaw in the Sony GWIVs.

Michael
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post #182 of 2853 Old 02-20-2005, 09:20 PM
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Wow, here it was where I thought I was acknowledging a potential (design?) problem with the GWIVs (and giving a thumbs down to Sony for that), and somehow I am accused of being defensive. Just because we are unable to see it doesn't mean the problem is being made up by others.

I ran into this same situation with the Anthem AVM-20 prepro we own. Many others had (mostly software) problems with it that we did not. Only when they were able to clearly describe their setup was I able to reproduce and confirm most of their problems. In some situations, it was determined that it was how the AVM-20 was suppose to operate. At that point, you either accept it or move on.

That's what I was attempting to say (poorly, it appears) about the Sony. It just may be how the GWIVs present themselves to some people, and there may be very little that can be done about it. Or, there may be a subtle design flaw that needs to be corrected.

At this point, I have no way of reproducing the problem because I don't have a clear picture (no pun intended) of what it will take to produce the problem others are seeing. Having scrutinized the XS955s now for well over 3 months now under a variety of conditions and sources, it just may be that I am not sensitive to the problem or I don't know how to produce it.

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post #183 of 2853 Old 02-20-2005, 09:46 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Michael Mohrmann
Wow, here it was where I thought I was acknowledging a potential (design?) problem with the GWIVs (and giving a thumbs down to Sony for that), and somehow I am accused of being defensive. Just because we are unable to see it doesn't mean the problem is being made up by others.

I ran into this same situation with the Anthem AVM-20 prepro we own. Many others had (mostly software) problems with it that we did not. Only when they were able to clearly describe their setup was I able to reproduce and confirm most of their problems. In some situations, it was determined that it was how the AVM-20 was suppose to operate. At that point, you either accept it or move on.

That's what I was attempting to say (poorly, it appears) about the Sony. It just may be how the GWIVs present themselves to some people, and there may be very little that can be done about it. Or, there may be a subtle design flaw that needs to be corrected.

At this point, I have no way of reproducing the problem because I don't have a clear picture (no pun intended) of what it will take to produce the problem others are seeing. Having scrutinized the XS955s now for well over 3 months now under a variety of conditions and sources, it just may be that I am not sensitive to the problem or I don't know how to produce it.

Michael

That's definitely reasonable Michael.

In my opinion, if you've never seen anything resembling this SDE-type-artifacting on your TV, don't try and find it. Hopefully it's just not visible on your set, but if it is and you do "learn" to see it (in the way people learn to see the rainbow effect when it's described to them) then it may become something that's difficult to ignore.

No reason to go looking for problems. I appreciate your willingness to help, but if it were me I wouldn't try to reproduce this problem if I didn't already see it.

Unfortunately for me, it is something I see fairly often whether I'm looking for it or not - but if I had never seen it during regular viewing I wouldn't go trying to reproduce it on purpose, I'd just be enjoying my 60xs955 as is (though soon to be a Qualia 006 I hope!) :-)

- paul
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post #184 of 2853 Old 02-21-2005, 06:38 AM
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Could this be what your seeing,I see this on my GW,I also saw it on my samsung DLP ,I believe its my cable box.jo

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post #185 of 2853 Old 02-21-2005, 06:44 AM
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I see this buzz blurr motion on Alex Trebek`s hair( THE FINE STRANDS) on Jeopardy ,It visible whether over the air or cable ,so its the way its compressed by my local ABC.


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post #186 of 2853 Old 02-21-2005, 07:56 AM
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I have the KDf-55XS955- I have noticed the blur in certain areas, but it seems diff on diff channels, some have it and some do not. I was told by comcast that if its not on every channel its the signal from that particular channel. For EX, I find CNN has more of the blur in facial area. I did alot of adjusting via the users menu and I must say everything looks much better. I'm not using the box as that makes things worse. Also turned down sharpness. If its not on every channel i doubt its the TV but the signals. Just a thought. Otherwise i adore the Tv esp HD
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post #187 of 2853 Old 02-21-2005, 09:37 AM
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Any comments on the 55XS955/60XS955 and how good of a PC PQ it can have?

Wondering if anyone can speak of specific examples, such as what video card they're using, whether DVI>HDMI, VGA>Component, or DVI>Compent, and any tweaking involved.
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post #188 of 2853 Old 02-21-2005, 03:30 PM
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Ok I can take it,Tell me. I found this on lcd lag could it be this? slightly smeared or blurry? guess not more of a grid were looking for.


"Traditionally, LCDs have suffered from three weaknesses: slow response time, narrow viewing angle, and poor representations of black. Slow response times cause images of fast motion--in video games or action movies, for example--to appear slightly smeared or blurry. Newer LCDs have far better response times, however, and the fast-image problem has mostly disappeared.
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post #189 of 2853 Old 02-21-2005, 06:14 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by AkaStp
No, the effect I described is not a blurring, its a grid.

A grid formed around a fast moving object that is not present in static scenes sure sounds like a compression artifact to me.

As far as SDE from distances > 10', maybe some people can see it, but thier eyesight must be better than 20/10 to do so.

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post #190 of 2853 Old 02-21-2005, 06:26 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by ehlarson
A grid formed around a fast moving object that is not present in static scenes sure sounds like a compression artifact to me.

As far as SDE from distances > 10', maybe some people can see it, but thier eyesight must be better than 20/10 to do so.

I don't think it's a a compression artifact. It shows up on multiple sources, including direct 720p HTPC input as well as video games played from an xbox or ps2.

- paul
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post #191 of 2853 Old 02-22-2005, 04:24 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by AkaStp
I've decided not to further pursue trying to determine the cause of the effect that I described because of the difficulties that have resulted. I will do my best to ignore it. I wouldn't want anyone to try and find it and spoil their enjoyment of this great TV. You either see it or you don't and its probably better if you don't. Hope you understand. Sorry for stirring things up.

Akastp - Thank you for not divulging the secrets of this dreaded LCD plague. I for one will sleep better at night knowing I will never know!
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post #192 of 2853 Old 02-22-2005, 05:40 PM
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After several months of reading, till my eyes crossed, I finally pulled the pen and signed on the line.

My many thanks to all of the folks that have attempted vicariously to make this an educated purchase.

I purchased my set at S*ars, with a price match from CC, that hasn't has any sx955s in a month, but still ran them on sale.

I promise I'll read the archives thoroughly before I embarrass myself with a stupid previously answered question and pester you with you top secret set settings.

NOT!

Put me in coach I'm ready to play.

Thanks big time,

Norm

I'd rather die while I'm living then live while I'm dead!

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post #193 of 2853 Old 02-22-2005, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gamehendge Jazz
Any comments on the 55XS955/60XS955 and how good of a PC PQ it can have?

Wondering if anyone can speak of specific examples, such as what video card they're using, whether DVI>HDMI, VGA>Component, or DVI>Compent, and any tweaking involved.

I'm also curious about how folks have tried to hook up a computer to the Sony and with what success. I'm hoping no PC-only solutions are required (i.e. windows-centric multirez software and/or adapters)...I have a Mac laptop and maybe soon a Mac mini dedicated to iTunes serving to my A/V rack and the TV.

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post #194 of 2853 Old 02-23-2005, 10:03 AM
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Now that we are finished obsessing over SDE and SSE, can anyone give a recommendation for an up-scaling DVD player that works well with the xs955? I've seen a Sony model mentioned on this forum but can't recall the model.

Thanks
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post #195 of 2853 Old 02-23-2005, 10:28 AM
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I have the upconverting Sony 975 player with the 55XS955. It looked the best running 480i and having the tv convert the signal.
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post #196 of 2853 Old 02-23-2005, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BenK
I have the upconverting Sony 975 player with the 55XS955. It looked the best running 480i and having the tv convert the signal.

I'm curious about this since I always thought it would look best at either 720p or 1080i using the HDMI hookup. How do you have this connected to the tv? component, composite or hdmi?
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post #197 of 2853 Old 02-23-2005, 10:45 AM
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I have it running through HDMI. It was slightly sharper than component. Even though upconverting was slightly sharper it added too much noise and the color wasnt quite right. I read in a post here how the scaler in the Sony was better than any DVD and an upscaling player was of little or no benefit. I didnt believe it until I actually tried it. You'd probably get different results with a different tv.
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post #198 of 2853 Old 02-23-2005, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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jeez you guys are a sensitive bunch. (way more than the other forums i frequent)

first you guys jumped all over me when i started this thread now i express my opinion on the styling and this?. since no one else expressed similar views as mine i guess i was way off base on the styling.

i welcome people to express their opinions. if they think my system sucks then tell me, i don't mind. BTW i never mentioned the WF (i had my first deposit on a WF).

i shall tread lightly in the future (i'm tired of apologizing).
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post #199 of 2853 Old 02-23-2005, 02:09 PM
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Using an old non-progressive sony DVD player I've been very impressed with the image quality of this TV. Not quite high-def but very nice. I was considering upgrading to a newer model player with progressive scan or maybe even upconverting capability but is it worth it since these sets seem to do such a good job with just a 480i signal?
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post #200 of 2853 Old 02-23-2005, 02:27 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Hammer231
Using an old non-progressive sony DVD player I've been very impressed with the image quality of this TV. Not quite high-def but very nice. I was considering upgrading to a newer model player with progressive scan or maybe even upconverting capability but is it worth it since these sets seem to do such a good job with just a 480i signal?

I've tried an upconverting (720p) DVD player... and my current DVD player on progressive (480p) mode... neither look as good as giving it a 480i signal and letting the Sony handle everything.

The upconverting player had a (highly touted) Faroudja chip and the 480p output on my current deck was rated as good by some reviews, but neither looked as good as just feeding my 55XS955 set 480i over component. I made sure I used the Cinemotion setting... and turning the DRC (Digital Reality Creation) to lowest setting (1) for both settings (effectively reducing its effect, which might be good for helping problem signals, but not good for a clean DVD signal.)

The Sony's deinterlacer and scaler do an amazing job! Some DVD players might do a better job in general than the one you have (dealing with Chroma errors and such), but for the most part, save your money on upconverting etc. It won't look as good!

-Terry
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post #201 of 2853 Old 02-23-2005, 02:46 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by BenK
I have it running through HDMI. It was slightly sharper than component. Even though upconverting was slightly sharper it added too much noise and the color wasnt quite right. I read in a post here how the scaler in the Sony was better than any DVD and an upscaling player was of little or no benefit. I didnt believe it until I actually tried it. You'd probably get different results with a different tv.

I have my 55XS connected via HDMI to a Denon 2910. Forgive my nooby question, but how do I know if I'm using the scaler in the TV versus the DVD player?

Thanks!
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post #202 of 2853 Old 02-23-2005, 03:28 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Turd Burglar
I have my 55XS connected via HDMI to a Denon 2910. Forgive my nooby question, but how do I know if I'm using the scaler in the TV versus the DVD player?

Thanks!

What is the Denon outputting over the HDMI? 480i? 480p? 720p? 1080i?

First off, the Sony is using its scaler at all times, because the native resolution of the TV is like 788. So, doesn't matter what you feed it, it is using its scaler in some manner. (Although I believe it's doing less "work" if you are feeding it a signal closer to native res.) If you send it a progressive signal, then the deinterlacer doesn't kick in (obviously, as the DVD player is doing the deinterlacing.)

In my personal experience, it seems that the more work I have the Sony do, the better the picture is.

-Terry
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post #203 of 2853 Old 02-23-2005, 03:43 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by TerryJ
What is the Denon outputting over the HDMI? 480i? 480p? 720p? 1080i?

First off, the Sony is using its scaler at all times, because the native resolution of the TV is like 788. So, doesn't matter what you feed it, it is using its scaler in some manner. (Although I believe it's doing less "work" if you are feeding it a signal closer to native res.) If you send it a progressive signal, then the deinterlacer doesn't kick in (obviously, as the DVD player is doing the deinterlacing.)

In my personal experience, it seems that the more work I have the Sony do, the better the picture is.

-Terry


I think I have it outputting 1080i. I really have no clue what is best for my situation. I just assumed that my TV was 1080i, so I would have the Denon output 1080i. Is that not the best way to go?
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post #204 of 2853 Old 02-23-2005, 04:03 PM
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The source is 480i, so regardless of how you send it, there should theoretically be no magical improvements in picture. Whether you send the DVD to the TV in 720p or 1080i, guess what? The original source was in 480i. Garbage in, garbage out.

BUT, however, some people *may* notice an improvement when using an upscaling DVD player not because it utilizes 720p/1080i upscaling, but perhaps there is better electronics inside that enables the DVD player to better pass the signal to the TV (i.e. the HDMI cable send information digitally, and digital signals are either legible or not for the TV, contrary to analog signals traveling along a wire, which may alter the analog signals in which the TV will still unsuspectedly accept).

For you, the best way to go would be to use your own eyes, and compare between 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i all sent to your TV. Use a still image from a DVD if you must, and focus on the color, sharpness, and contrast to that of your best liking.

Back to my broken 55XS saga----
The technician from Captain Video (thank goodness they are very reputable) came over last Monday but turns out that he brought the wrong lamp unit. He thought I had a 60XBR. Not his fault, however, and turns out it was Best Buy's fault - they faxed him not only incorrect information about the TV I purchased but also an incorrect address that sent him going to the wrong apartment. Incredibly disappointing. If the dumbasses at Best Buy don't know how to transpose from paper to computer, or from one computer to another, then damn, why not just cut/paste or simpler yet, why not just transfer the entire record from one computer to another?

So now I have to wait another week or so for the correct parts to be ordered b Captain Video. I guess I might even have to miss upcoming HD events, including HD movies on ABC and FOX this weekend. I wanted to watch Independence Day (think that's FOX) this Sunday...never watched that movie and it sure sounds like a good movie to watch in HDTV with my surround sound setup.

EDIT: The technician says that he has seen many Sonys fail prematurely not because of a fault in the lamp unit, but something due to a 'lamp driver'. He actually looked at my lamp unit, and said nothing's wrong with it and it's not burnt out. I suspected it wasn't burnt out because I recall the image fading back onto my screen for a moment. So new parts for me: lamp driver and lamp unit. Technician also said most TVs perform better with the new lamp driver...I'll have to see about this.

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post #205 of 2853 Old 02-23-2005, 06:48 PM
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I'm new to this forum and just ordered a 55XS955. To get a jump on the learning curve I downloaded the manual from the Sony website. It mentions the "power save" function. Has anyone used this mode? Would it save on lamp live. Polarizer life? Would it improve or degrade PQ?

Thanks
Joeren
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post #206 of 2853 Old 02-23-2005, 07:10 PM
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Just got my 60xs955 Monday. Great picture

Denon 4520ci, 3 JBL 2360As/EV DHA-1s, 3 1/4 Pie bass bins, MiniDSP 2x4s, 4 Klipsch HIPs, 2 Klipsch KP3002s, PS3, XBox 360, 3 Intel NUCs, Monoprice Redmere, Monster HTPS7000, 2 SUPER SPUD subs, Panasonic AE8000u, 2 Danley DTS10 subs, & Yamaha P7000s.
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post #207 of 2853 Old 02-23-2005, 07:16 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Turd Burglar
I think I have it outputting 1080i. I really have no clue what is best for my situation. I just assumed that my TV was 1080i, so I would have the Denon output 1080i. Is that not the best way to go?

Yeah... the Sony's native resolution is not 1080, so sending the TV a 1080i picture is not necessarily best. As others have suggested, it's best to try sending all the various scanrates to see what you like best. HOWEVER, remember that each scanrate needs to be setup differently. For example, when I switch from 480i and 480p, the brightness/contrast needs to be setup completely differently.

I have a Pioneer 578a, and noticed a HUGE improvement with 480i vs. 480p. The 480i was much better. This is because the deinterlacer in the Sony is great compared to what is in the Pioneer (and even one "upconverting" DVD player I tried.) I guess it makes sense. The TV that costs thousands should have a better deinterlacer than a $150 DVD player! (If only it was that easy...) However, your Denon might do just as well or better as the circuits in the Sony. Time to experiment.

Just don't discount sending a 480i as an option. For me, it gave the best picture.

-Terry
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post #208 of 2853 Old 02-23-2005, 08:41 PM
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Today I received component cables to attach my Gamecube to my 60XS955. I correctly set them up by pressing B the first time I powered on with the cables. I launched Resident Evil 4 and it asked if I wanted to enable progressive mode- I selected yes. The set switched to 480p and I started the game. Why am I posting...?

I'm disappointed.

Everywhere I look I read about how great progressive mode, that it's a step up from interlaced mode. But now everything I've tested- my DVD player, my Xbox and now my PS2 and Gamecube... ALL LOOK BETTER AT 480i! I especially notice it with text on screen- it's somewhat blurrier in progressive mode.

What am I missing? Do I have something set wrong on my 60XS? Why is progressive mode so desirable?

Is anyone using 480p on their 55/60XS955 via gaming, DVD or whatnot, and they think it's noticeably better than 480i??? What is it that's better? What can I look at to test to the two modes and prove to myself what I read all the time... that progressive mode is an improvement over interlaced on this set?


Sub-1080p/60fps is not next-gen.


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post #209 of 2853 Old 02-23-2005, 09:20 PM
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DaverJ...you're not missing anything. This TV just kicks ass at converting 480i to 480p using its internal deinterlacer.

Just like you, I was disappointed when I first tried DVD in 480p. And PS2 in 480p. Both looked worse than 480i. Now the Gamecube looks fine to me in 480p so that's what I use. Same with the Xbox (you should see 720p). Also, I think moving from s-video to component helps even if you are only using 480i, although I have not compared them really closely.
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post #210 of 2853 Old 02-23-2005, 09:38 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by DaverJ
Is anyone using 480p on their 55/60XS955 via gaming, DVD or whatnot, and they think it's noticeably better than 480i??? What is it that's better? What can I look at to test to the two modes and prove to myself what I read all the time... that progressive mode is an improvement over interlaced on this set?

I think that we should all feel lucky that this set kicks butt... and has a better deinterlacer/scaler than most DVD players do. I've experimented with Avia test patterns, and various DVDs, and setting the DVD player to send 480i (over component) is just flat out better/clearer than anything else I send to the TV. And the result really does rival some HD stuff... coming from just a $150 dvd player sending 480i over component. Amazing.

Now, I haven't tried gaming consoles at 480p other than my Xbox. Logically, you'd want to send a gaming console signal as progressive because the game isn't being "deinterlaced", but rather sending a pure progressive signal. That's my assumption anyway. (I haven't tried my PS2 yet with the set, as I haven't played anything recently other than Halo2 on Xbox.)

I suspect on a lot of "lesser" sets, a progressive scan signal from a DVD player might make the picture better, because they skimped on the built-in scaler/deinterlacer. Bottom line... all I can say is... what a great TV set, Sony!

-Terry
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