Are 720p TVs becoming obsolete already - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 22 Old 03-21-2005, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Looks like all the TV manufacturers are coming out with 1080p HD sets this year. Am I going to kick myslef in 2 years for buying a set that can only go 720p? What sources are going to be 1080p in the next couple of years? Are any broadcast TV signals going to be 1080p? Is HD-DVD going to be 1080p? Logically 1080p is a higher resolution than 720p, but is a side by side test really going to blow me away? When 28K modems were out, companies started producing 33K, but they didn't catch on because the speed increase was negligible. Are we looking at the same thing here?
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post #2 of 22 Old 03-21-2005, 07:55 AM
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Take a look here;

http://www.atd.net/HDTV_faq.html

and the best argument;

http://www.bluesky-web.com/numbers-mean-little.htm

I really don't see where the 1080p fits in other than something to sell TV's by!:rolleyes:

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post #3 of 22 Old 03-21-2005, 08:05 AM
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No 720p is not being obsoleted today by any means. Most sources will remain 720p and 1080i for the forseable future. You've got a couple years at least before companies even start providing 1080p information and then it will most likely be in the form of higher end HD/BlueRay DVDs and not even the standard HD/BlueRay DVDs.

I seriously doubt that you'll see TV broadcasts jump to 1080p for at least 5-10yrs and it will most likely be because they are forced to do so.

A side by side comparision is going to blow you away at a certain distance but the further you sit away from your TV (or the smaller the screen) the less you'll be able to preceive the difference in resolution. This is why you're seeing 1080p TVs in the 70" range. As the resolution goes up the acceptable TV screen size for the same sitting distance goes up. For example 10' sitting distance is about 32" 480i Direct View CRT, 40" 480p EDTV, 56" 720p HDTV, 70" 1080p HDTV. These are rough estimates based various individuals seating distance to screen size ratios but you get the idea.

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post #4 of 22 Old 03-21-2005, 08:13 AM
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No.

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post #5 of 22 Old 03-21-2005, 08:15 AM
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This has been covered in many other posts. Please do a search.
In a nut, some networks broadcast in 720p, some in 1080i. There are no 1080p broadcasts. The higher number can be misleading- it's interlaced. See this link. There's a lot more to the story. In any event, on smaller screens you may not see a lot of difference between 720 & 1080. Keep in mind, until recently most plasmas were only EDTV, not HDTV, and they still sold well.

RCA has announced they will sell some digital TVs that are SD only. I think there was a 27" one announced for less than $300 and another size for less than $400. None are available yet- they have stated that once there is a firm transition date, they can do this. On screens that small, there is not a lot to be gained to go to 720 or 1080 (opinions vary- those that think the higher res matters at lot will likely be buying larger sets anyway). Higher resolution would be better, but no so much better the sets won't sell. They will allow for relatively cheap sets to still be sold.

Your 720 purchase will look fine, for a lot less than an equivalent sized 1080. By the time you're ready for your next set, it'll still look fine as a second TV or for sale. There's always something "better" around the corner. Then it's late, and needs more debugging. If you keep waiting, you'll never get to watch HD.

See also this link.

On edit: D--- I type slow! When I started to reply, there were no other replies! And thanks, videobruce, for that second link- I'll be bookmarking that one!

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post #6 of 22 Old 03-21-2005, 08:56 AM
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I believe 1080p sets will displace 720p sets in a couple of years. Not for image quality reasons, but for marketing reasons.

Look no further than the 'arms race' in digital cameras where we've gone from 1 megapixel to 5+ megapixels being the mainstream resolution.

It's easier on a product sheet to distill PQ down to one number rather than objectively compare contrast, resolution, brightness etc. etc.

Your TV is obsolete.
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post #7 of 22 Old 03-21-2005, 08:58 AM
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Ain't it the truth. But as long as it's significantly cheaper to make the smaller sizes in 720, it'll be around. And 720 sets bought today will still look good years from now.

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post #8 of 22 Old 03-21-2005, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
I type slow! When I started to reply, there were no other replies!
Thought I was the only one.;)

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post #9 of 22 Old 03-21-2005, 09:28 AM
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I just don't buy into it that people say 720p is dead. Most people out there don't even know what that is and would be blown away by it. And whose to say that 1080p will be in the talks of being dead next summer? Because whats after 1080? I'm sure its far superior. The problem is that it never ends and you have to pick something to go with for a while and not keep jumping ship
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post #10 of 22 Old 03-21-2005, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jackbnimble
What sources are going to be 1080p in the next couple of years? Are any broadcast TV signals going to be 1080p? Is HD-DVD going to be 1080p? Logically 1080p is a higher resolution than 720p, but is a side by side test really going to blow me away?
All standard 1080i HD, the majority, is a source of 1080p since 1080p displays simply deinterlace 1080i to 1080p. It appears 1080 DVDs will be 1080i sources, too, although like current Microsoft DVDs they could be sources of 1080/24psf (segmented frames), or other progressive frame rates. 1080i/p has the capability of delivering double the spatial resolution of 720p. But, as HD delivery technology improves to deliver the full resolvable detail theoretical potential (full 1920X1080), not in practice today, a 1080p display will be able to reveal all the improving resolution. Many here. even with today's heavily filtered 1080i, write that 1080i provides better-fidelity images compared to 720p. So, IMO, go for the largest-screen, highest-resolution display possible and affordable. -- John
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post #11 of 22 Old 03-21-2005, 11:20 AM
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Since the new 1080p sets coming out accept the exact same signals (480i/480p/720p/1080i) as existing 720p sets, they will both become obsolete at exactly the same time. Which is probably several decades from now.

I want to eat your brains and gain your knowledge.
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post #12 of 22 Old 03-21-2005, 02:40 PM
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The mind likes to think it is control. So we look at numbers and try to make our decision from numbers or others who talk of numbers.....the fact remains that all 720P current displays have different picture qualities (including pure resolution/ability to give us more details). So, as far as 720 sets versus the new 1080 sets the only thing that REALLY matters is whether or not these new displays will give us a better picture at normal viewing distances or not. According to those who have seen them side by side the 1080 displays have better details and better color resolution.

Now, why would this be so since they are both displaying a 720P signal? There would probably be no difference or maybe even a slightly better picture on a 15" display on the 720P one since the pixels are so close together.....but we are talking 42" on up here. The pixels are far apart and that causes smearing. So, when you have more lines of resolution (1080) and a GREAT internal converter that upconverts the 720P (or whatever) to 1080P you get more fill, hence a better picture. It is all going to depend on the ability of the upconverter (whether internal or external) whether the signal will truly looks better. There is a guy (ColorTV) on the Qualia owners thread that says that SD TV looks really fantastic on his 70 inch display. How can that be? Because the Qualia has 1080P and a fantastic upconverter....that is why. I am sure some of you have read about the HQV chips and their converter technology. Apparently Taranex has demoed several times for the public its upconverting technology. They have two calibrated displays next to each other and send say a 480i? signal directly into one of them and then the same signal into the upconverter box and into the other display. People are blown away by how much better the picture is with a REALLY good upconverter. They say things like "looks like HD". Of course, it is not HD but those kinds of reactions are common.

I believe a properly done 1080P display will have a better picture than the same TV with a 720P display. And this is for all picture sizes from 42 inch on up at normal viewing distances. Of course, if you sit 35 feet away they will look the same. But at 7-14 feet, even a 50 incher will have a better picture on ALL sources with a 1080P display with a GREAT upconverter inside.

So, it does not matter to me whether there is ever a pure 1080P source. What matters to me is whether the new 1080P displays will make a better picture with all the current formats. I believe they will and that is why I am going to wait for the newer 1080P displays.

When the 1080P displays hit the streets everyone will finally get to see whether or not they truly give us a better picture. Until you can see them side by side then it is all a guess....including what I just wrote....however, I am taking bets that I am right....any takers...he he.

Obviously, we cannot all afford the newer sets. Some cannot stand to wait anymore. I want to purchase a set knowing that it will give me the most enjoyment I can for some years to come. I don't want to buy a 720 set and read all the threads starting in June (with the release of the Sammy 1080 sets) how much better the new ones are (even with SD!?!). No, I want to get something that will knock my socks off for a few years and then not even have the desire to come back on the forum because I will be toooooo dang busy enjoying my set, knowing I made a great decision (for me).
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post #13 of 22 Old 03-21-2005, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ric Schultz
I don't want to buy a 720 set and read all the threads starting in June (with the release of the Sammy 1080 sets) how much better the new ones are (even with SD!?!). No, I want to get something that will knock my socks off for a few years and then not even have the desire to come back on the forum because I will be toooooo dang busy enjoying my set, knowing I made a great decision (for me).
Thanks Ric.... Just the words I've been looking for to explain to the wife why I'll probably wait to September to get the new set, even though I'm on these boards every night drooling...

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post #14 of 22 Old 03-21-2005, 05:43 PM
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One important aspect of the new 1080p displays is being overlooked - their 60 Hz framerate ability!

The advantage of a 1080p/60 display is that all lesser ATSC formats can be upconverted to it without information loss... 720p/60 (and 480p/60) can be upscaled without throwing away half the frames, preserving it's temporal resolution and progressive nature. 1080i/30 can be deinterlaced and double scanned without loss of spatial resolution.

Couldn't we as well say 'aren't 1080p/60 displays going to kill off interlace sets?' After all they have the same spatial res, but are progressively scanned.
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post #15 of 22 Old 03-21-2005, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by navychop
In any event, on smaller screens you may not see a lot of difference between 720 & 1080.
I can assure that on my 23" 1920*1200 LCD computer/HD display that their is a huge difference between it and lowly 1280*720. Dell is selling a similar one for $1200...
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post #16 of 22 Old 03-21-2005, 06:11 PM
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"I can assure that on my 23" 1920*1200 LCD computer/HD display that their is a huge difference between it and lowly 1280*720."

That could very easily be a result of the scaling capabilities of the LCD -- in fact, I'm fairly sure it is.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #17 of 22 Old 03-22-2005, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RSawdey
One important aspect of the new 1080p displays is being overlooked - their 60 Hz framerate ability!

The advantage of a 1080p/60 display is that all lesser ATSC formats can be upconverted to it without information loss... 720p/60 (and 480p/60) can be upscaled without throwing away half the frames, preserving it's temporal resolution and progressive nature. 1080i/30 can be deinterlaced and double scanned without loss of spatial resolution.

Couldn't we as well say 'aren't 1080p/60 displays going to kill off interlace sets?' After all they have the same spatial res, but are progressively scanned.
Here's my problem with all of this 1080 chit chat.....don't you think we are looking too far ahead? I know its a good idea to have a tv that will last plenty of years but you have to look at what is happening with tv broadcasting. They haven't even really put 720p out there enough let alone think about going to 1080p. I can see it now at this time next year when everyone here will be saying that the Samsung 1080s are not good enough and that they should wait until the fall 2006 for the 1920s or whatever.
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post #18 of 22 Old 03-22-2005, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by subwoofer
Here's my problem with all of this 1080 chit chat.....don't you think we are looking too far ahead? I know its a good idea to have a tv that will last plenty of years but you have to look at what is happening with tv broadcasting. They haven't even really put 720p out there enough let alone think about going to 1080p. I can see it now at this time next year when everyone here will be saying that the Samsung 1080s are not good enough and that they should wait until the fall 2006 for the 1920s or whatever.
The vast majority of HD broadcasting is done in 1080i, not 720p. While I wait for the broadcasters to catch up, I'm quite happy to de-interlace a 1080i (broadcast) signal, and watch hi-def DVDs (later this year). Give me a Q6 (please!:D) or a Samsung xx68 series, and I'm in HD Nirvana! Pick your price point, and if it involves waiting for the market to settle down a bit, so be it. A wise 1080p purchase made once these sets hit the market, should be good for at least 5-10 years. Unless you are, like many of us, a technology geek (as opposed to PQ phrique) and must have the new SED, GLV, OLED, or whatever. That's between you and your banker.

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post #19 of 22 Old 03-22-2005, 10:27 AM
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I completely agree that if you pick a decent Sammy tv today that you will be happy for 5+ years. I'm just having trouble being sold on 1080p and HD-DVDs taking off
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post #20 of 22 Old 03-22-2005, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by subwoofer
I'm just having trouble being sold on 1080p and HD-DVDs taking off
I think 1080p has already taken off, there just isn't enough hardware available, yet. That doesn't mean that everyone has to jump on the bandwagon immediately. The same with HD DVDs. Some may want to wait out the format wars. Others will wait for blue laser universal players, and still others will just buy one of each format and enjoy the visual goodness! What ever camp you fit into, the answers will make themselves apparent to all soon enough. Jump in where ever you feel comfortable, but know, that if you decide to wait all this out, and see if it all "takes off"', you'll be eating my dust ! ;)

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post #21 of 22 Old 03-22-2005, 04:25 PM
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It will be alot of years before you see the last 720p display for sale at Wal-
Mart--that may only come with the next standard.
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post #22 of 22 Old 03-22-2005, 05:30 PM
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While a 1080p set/monitor is basically "line doubling"...not getting into the other factors...what I want is a set/monitor that won't convert 1080i to 720p or vice versa. I'd like the set/monitor to "natively" display both.

A couple very early monitors had that ability. I believe the Princeton Graphics and a couple of the Panasonics.
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