HLR service menu (DNIe) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 08-25-2005, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I read the thread on the HLP service menu, so decided to poke around for the HLR. From a powered-off state, Mute-1-8-2-Power


Note... in the service menu there IS a way to turn off DNIe. After experimenting, here is what I notice about this setting....

1) Turning ON DNIe (the default) results in a "popping" image... artificial contrast/sharpness. It's very remarkable the difference, and that's pretty pleasing.

2) However... DNIe ON, also crushes the black levels and results in a dramatic loss of shadow detail. I was wondering what was happening... this is the cause of it.

3) DNIe OFF seems to have a "smoother" screen, and might get rid of some artificial graininess on large swathes of similar-colored areas.

4) DNIe doesn't seem to impact lip sync issues at all.


I haven't had the nerve to change most of the other settings, though I did reduce gamma to setting 0 (FILM)


I'm leaving it OFF.
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post #2 of 28 Old 08-25-2005, 08:54 PM
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This was what I was getting at when I posed the question in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=572435

But I guess unless Samsung will tell us definitively, we can't say for sure that it is default off even though it appears to be. Maybe one of you guys can try to talk to Samsung tech support and see if you can get anything out of them.
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post #3 of 28 Old 08-25-2005, 09:44 PM
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I don't think it's a matter of who we trust. I think it is OFF as well. But if it is OFF, then I personally feel it is something that should be addressed by Samsung, whether we actually want to turn it on or not. When I talked to them, they just gave the standard line that it is defaulted ON and always ON. If this is not the case, then at the very least this is false advertising, which is pretty serious. Also, if turning it ON along with other settings allows us to get an even better picture, I would like to have that option since this is one of the major features that was advertised and we've paid for.
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post #4 of 28 Old 08-25-2005, 11:45 PM - Thread Starter
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mine was on by default... I had to turn it off.
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post #5 of 28 Old 08-26-2005, 07:58 AM
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Mine was Off. If I turn it on in the service menu, exit it and power off, then go back into the service menu after the bulb cools off, The SM says its still off {it does not save the setting}. How are you getting it to save the setting ? Thanks.

MC
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post #6 of 28 Old 08-29-2005, 08:32 AM
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How do you turn DNIe off in the service menu?

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post #7 of 28 Old 08-29-2005, 09:45 AM
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If you go into the service menu, and select DNIe, by default it says it's OFF. You can select it and turn it ON while you're still in the service menu. But this setting doesn't persist.
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post #8 of 28 Old 08-29-2005, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koralis
I read the thread on the HLP service menu, so decided to poke around for the HLR. From a powered-off state, Mute-1-8-2-Power
Does this work for the HLR5667?
My DNIe appears to be 'off' as well.
If the above does work - is it the same thing to switch it back off?

Thanks.
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post #9 of 28 Old 08-29-2005, 11:06 AM
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Is it possible that this just changes your set to the DNIE settings in the demo that are probably set realy high to get the contrast and that DNIE off in the SM is actually just DEMO DNIE on/off for the full screen.
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post #10 of 28 Old 08-29-2005, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhixson
Is it possible that this just changes your set to the DNIE settings in the demo that are probably set realy high to get the contrast and that DNIE off in the SM is actually just DEMO DNIE on/off for the full screen.
Without any definitive word from Samsung about why we are seeing what we are seeing, everything is pretty much speculation. What you are suggesting is possible as well. However, I would somewhat question that explanation due to the fact that this is the setting in the service menu and it doesn't mention "demo", just DNIe.

Most likely, you would assume that the majority of people wouldn't go into the SM, much less know how to. And if only someone servicing the TV or calibrating it goes in there, there wouldn't seem to be much point of having an option to activate a demo.

Of course, I don't see much point in having a demo feature in the regular menu either, but I could see some slight justification for it such as allowing the dealer at the store to activate it to promote sales or for you at home to marvel at how much better it has made your picture.
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post #11 of 28 Old 08-29-2005, 11:34 AM
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DNIe is not a feature that you can turn ON / OFF. It is a marketing term for all of the complex processing that is performed in the TV to produce the picture. Turning it OFF or ON does not make any sense. The DNIe demo is just a sales tool for selling TV in a showroom. The temporary ON position in the service menu is probably there just to accurately calibrate some of the complex settings (perhaps at the factory) and is not intended to be on during TV operation.

> Bill
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post #12 of 28 Old 08-29-2005, 11:54 AM
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Here is a short comment about DNIe from SethS relayed by rictus from his calibration session. The set being calibrated was a HLR6168. There are no mention of changes to other values in the DNIe menu, but rictus wasn't in the room all the time.

"DNIe is actually the name of an entire processing board in the Samsung, responsible for doing all the image processing, so it doesn't really make sense to speak of "turning off DNIe"--the set wouldn't work if you did that. What was previously referred to as "turning off DNIe" was just turning off edge enhancement.

"Samsung HLR6168 calibration report

I think "previously" refers to HLM, HLN, and HLP models.
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post #13 of 28 Old 08-29-2005, 12:49 PM
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Unless Samsung has changed the meaning of the DNIe terminology, I believe it applies to a specific function.

This is Samsung's press release with regards to their HDTV system on a single chip. Note that DNIe is listed as a single function block.

http://www.samsung.com/Products/Semi...0000064140.htm

For 2002 DLP's, people had the option to upgrade their TV's and add the DNIe feature:
http://erms.samsungusa.com/customer/...=41&PROD_ID=-1
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post #14 of 28 Old 08-29-2005, 12:57 PM
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gambit, you might want to look here: What is DNIe. When you click on the link at the bottom right, Samsung describes the four enhancements that are done by DNIe (motion optimizer, contrast enhancer, detail enhancer and color optimizer).
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post #15 of 28 Old 08-29-2005, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AkaStp
Have you been into the SM of your 5668 and tried changing the DNIe setting from Off to On and observing the changes it makes to the picture?
Btw, if turning DNIe off or on does not make any sense then why was this possible in the previous models?
I have not changed anything in my service menu. I'm still trying to understand the baseline performance characteristics of the TV and have no intension of changing anything in the SM in the near future.

DNIe ... it is a brand or marketing term whose meaning has evolved over time. Five years from now they will probably still be using it and it will mean something different than it does today, but still be used in the literature to describe a process that Samsung uses to give you a better looking picture.

On prior models, such as my HLN, they defined the DNIe ON / OFF setting in a way that made sense in 2003 given the technology in 2003.

> Bill
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post #16 of 28 Old 08-29-2005, 02:27 PM
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I think the name of the setting is not the point. Whatever that "DNIe" control in the Service Menu really does, it does make a difference in the picture quality. It would be nice if the TV actually remembered the SM setting, even nicer if it was available as a user control.
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post #17 of 28 Old 08-29-2005, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schaffer970
gambit, you might want to look here: What is DNIe. When you click on the link at the bottom right, Samsung describes the four enhancements that are done by DNIe (motion optimizer, contrast enhancer, detail enhancer and color optimizer).
Thanks for the link. But I guess this can be interpreted a couple of ways as well. Since these are four "enhancements" that DNIe provides, one could assume that a signal doesn't necessarily need to run through DNIe and bypass this "processing" altogether. But if DNIe has morphed from what it was originally to be an integral part of the processing that cannot be removed, then we'd be talking about something else altogether.

I guess it still comes down to the fact that we really need Samsung to say something about this. They've talked about DNIe as a separate "feature" and have never explicitly stated the terminology encompasses more than that. And actually, I don't really care whether it does or doesn't. I just want them to explain specifically why we see what we see in the DNIe demo and the SM DNIe setting.
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post #18 of 28 Old 08-29-2005, 03:27 PM
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gambit, I agree with you. It would be nice to know what is going on with DNIe and if they are going to give us a demo with it on and off, what settings can be changed to affect the picture in various ways.
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post #19 of 28 Old 09-10-2005, 04:16 PM
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I hate the default DNIe processing. Samsung's beloved DNIe makes good video source look unatural. while only "enhancing" defects in crappy video source! In fact, I think Samsung should develop a "reverse DNIe for most of the low quality SD video that's broadcast today! ;)

DNIe also makes a computer desktop image look terrible by creating ringing, and artificial light and dark pockets next to fonts (edge "enhancement?"). DNIe further destroys the benefits of 1:1 pixel mapping that would, otherwise, yield nice, crisp Windows desktop fonts of 1 pixel width.

When I received my new HL-R yesterday, (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ed#post6168832) I couldn't believe the crappy PQ as compared to my old HL-N model and I stayed up nearly all night, attempting to realize a solution, or at least an acceptable improvement. I always ran my HL-N with DNIe Mode set to "off" and I miss its unsurpassed sharpness and clarity with 1:1 pixel mapping. Hopefully, other forum members will leverage my techniques and settings to, perhaps, gain even greater improvement. Members, please report your findings here.

I still prefer the PQ of my HL-N, but I think I can live with the current amount of DNIe distortion I'm seeing after discovering the following tweaks.

My method:

Use DNIe Demo Mode to evaluate changes made in the service menus and user menus. Toggle DNIe demo mode on and off while watching the right side of the screen for changes and differences. My goal was to adjust my set such that there is no perceptable difference on the right side of the screen when comparing Demo Mode "on" and Demo Mode "off." Because DNIe Demo Mode is not available from the service menu, it is necessary to exit the service menu and enter Demo Mode to evaluate any changes.

The left side of the demo mode screen is not useful, other than to possibly train your eye to recognize the impact of DNIe induced defects! When DNIe mode is selected "on,", the DNIe "effect" is even further exaggerated than normal viewing mode on the left half of the screen so toggling DNIe mode "on" and "off" will allow you to compare an extreme DNIe effect (DNIe Mode "on") to your normal viewing mode (DNIe Mode "off"). Once you've trained your eye to notice the undesireable qualities of the extreme DNIe effect, start tweaking and evaluating with the right half of the screen. The objective is to compare the appearance of only the right half of the screen with DNIe Mode "on" and "off." Do not compare the right half to the left half, as a salesman would have you do when pushing this DNIe BS!

Video test source:

If you have a HTPC, the Windows desktop provides a very good video source for hunting down DNIe artifacts. I used my HTPC and ATI 9800 Pro and hooked up to the HDMI input. This PC is my main home theater source. I set the Windows desktop to about a 20% neutral gray color. Unlike with my HL-N, my Windows video settings inititally refused to drive a 1280x780 video mode to the HL-R. (HDMI handshake to blame?) Fortunately, the ATI drivers provide a way to force 1280x720 mode. (Right click desktop then Properties >> Display Properties >> Settings >> Advanced >> Displays...click "FPD," then Troubleshoot and check "Force 720p Mode.") Once I achieved 720p mode, I was later able to reboot to 720p mode with the "force" box unchecked. Strange! I also used the Digital Video Essentials DVD SMTPE test pattern from Title 13, Chapter 2 and the patterns of Chapters 3 and 5. When completing calibration, be aware that different mpeg decoders and different directshow renderers will yield different results on a PC so I suspect other's user menu calibration adjustments will vary from mine.

My Service Menu Adjustments:

Fortunately, I found the SM DNIe menu settings to be sticky. Enter the SM and navigate to the DNIe menu. I zeroed out nearly every setting that is not color related. The only exceptions are the Sub Contrast, Sub Brightness, and ALPHAU/L entries. These settings have a very large effect and also interact with the user menu Brightness setting, at the very least. I found changes to these settings were necessary to completely remove the last detectable differences on the right side of the screen when toggling between DNIe Demo mode on and off. Once these settings were modified from their default values (which varies with input source, BTW) it was necessary to redo basic calibration of the User menu items with NVE--partiularly the Contrast and Brightness settings.

B_RATIO and W_RATIO are a pain. Their default values are 12000! I found no method to quickly zero these entries. I held the remote control button down with a small screw and some masking tape while I ate dinner.

Here are the default HDMI values followed by my best values to date. Remember to record all your default values before you start tweaking! I also found that I preferred Gamma = 0.

DNIe Service Menu Items
------------------------------
NR_MAX Y/C..........48 >> 0
NR_MIN Y/C...........16 >> 0
Core........................4 >> 0
B_RATIO..........12000 >> 0
BLACK_TILT.........120 >> 0
W_RATIO.........12000 >> 0
WHITE_TILT.........200 >> 0
GAIN 1X.................16 >> 0
GAIN 1Y.................12 >> 0
GAIN 2X...................8 >> 0
GAIN 2Y...................4 >> 0
GAIN 3X...................1 >> 0
NDON....................ON >> OFF
CORING_ON..........ON >> OFF
SCALE_R................92 >> 0
WTE_CSC.........YCCRGB >> no change
DITHER_MOD...........0 >> no change
RED_C_COEFF.....128 >> no change
GRN_C_COEFF.....128 >> no change
BLU_C_COEFF.....128 >> no change
RED_B_COEFF.....128 >> no change
GRN_B_COEFF.....128 >> no change
BLU_B_COEFF.....128 >> no change
Sub Contrast.......105 >> 80
Sub Brightness....235 >> 275
ALPHAU/L..............50 >> 255

I also ran basic calibration with DVE (the SM clears the settings each time) and ended up with the following custom user settings:

Contrast.....100
Brightness....25
Sharpness......0
Color.............46
Color Tone...WARM 1

Others will obviously get different settings here.

My end result is much improved. I cannot detect a differerence in the right half of the screen between DNIe Mode "on" and "off." Hoever, there is still more DNIe badness built into this HL-R than the HL-N and the HL-N still has better PQ (better geometry and far less overscan too! :() DNIe Demo Mode has taken me as far as I can go. I'm not sure that it's possible to achieve the settings necessary to match the PQ of the HL-N "DNIe off" mode. If anyone comes up with something better, please post. Also, I haven't corrected my other inputs yet and I'd be interested in hearing about experiences with the other inputs.

Also, I can only guess at the function of a few of these SM DNIe settings. If anyone has the definitions for any or all of them, please post! I don't have the service manual, but may attempt to find one--that is, if I can now tame the excessive overcan so the HDMI input can be used with my HTPC. So far, I've only been able to find an excessively underscanning custom video resolution with Powerstrip. A slightly overscanning custom resolution is what's, obviously, necessary for a HTPC. Even then, I won't have 1:1 pixel mapping for all the 720p souce I play from my HTPC like I had with the HL-N. My Mac-mini HD firewire recorder is connected to the VGA input so, although Samsung provided PC adjustments on it, it's already in use.

Good Luck!

Cal
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post #20 of 28 Old 09-10-2005, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AkaStp
calinb, was DNIe on or off by default in the SM of your HLR5067?
If on, were you able to turn it iff and get it to stay turned off?
If so, wouldn't that have the desired overall effect of disabling DNIe and its effects?
AkaStp,

My SM provides no "on" or "off" setting for DNIe--at least none that I can find. (Wish it did--assuminig the setting were sticky.) MY SM only provides the DNIe menu items I posted above so DNIe is, very much, in effect by default! :( I've found my changes to be sticky--at least through a soft power cycle. (Haven't unpligged the set from the wall outlet yet.)

I've searched these forums and concluded that Samsung thinks it knows better than we dumb users how much DSP we should be using! Haha--given the default user menu settings Samsung chooses for their products, that's a joke! At least they stopped using that dreadful "Dynamic" mode they selected as the default in the HL-N! On the other hand, it provided a very obvious reminder to reset user menus after visiting the service menu! ;)
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post #21 of 28 Old 09-11-2005, 09:15 PM
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Count me in as another that hates the overprocessed look of these DNIe "enhancements."

I just got done setting GAIN_X1, etc to zero and setting all of the values starting with "SNI_PROC" that were ON to OFF.

Those things alone got me close enough to a good picture to make me a lot happier. At least there *is* a way to disable most (all?) of that stuff. And yeah, I was also initially misled by the "DNIe On/Off" option, which seems to only apply while you're in the service menu.
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post #22 of 28 Old 09-12-2005, 03:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Tack
Those things alone got me close enough to a good picture to make me a lot happier. At least there *is* a way to disable most (all?) of that stuff. And yeah, I was also initially misled by the "DNIe On/Off" option, which seems to only apply while you're in the service menu.
I'm much happier now too, Steve. I've been experimenting with SM Sub Contrast and Sub Brightness. I adjusted them with DVE for all inputs for the greatest possible dynamic range (preserving whiter than white and blacker than black). This provides plenty of headroom and footroom to make user menu adjustment later. I also went back to the factory gamma=2 and set ALPHAU/L to 0. I'm seeing virtually none of the offensive DNIe effects now.

Strangely, I think I prefer the PQ of the VGA input to the HDMI input for my HTPC--just the opposite of my HL-N.
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post #23 of 28 Old 09-21-2005, 02:47 PM
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I just purchased an HLR4266 for a small upstairs room after returning the horrible Toshiba 34HF85 and thought I was going to have to take this one back too until I found this thread. The picture looked great at first but then began to bother me after a few minutes. I actually ran into a wall after I cut the TV off last night. It felt like my eyesight was exploded into a million individual points which continued to dance after I turned off the tv. I think it may have been made even worse by the less than stellar quality of the screen on this model.

I set all the settings for the DNIe as in your above post with the ALPHAU/L to zero in the service menu and the effect is gone and the picture is now very good, comparable to my HLN5065 with the DNIe off and its new light engine, although the screen is still a bit more apparent than I would like. Winged Migration on HDNet is stunning now and I couldn't finish watching it last night.

Thanks a million, saved me hours!
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post #24 of 28 Old 01-29-2006, 10:40 AM
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I also posted this in a Display Calibration thread, but since this thread is the source of my initial information, I figured it should be added here too.

I played around with the DNIe settings on my HLR5656W and found that the 5 "GAIN" settings seem to have the greatest effect on the edge enhancement features of DNIe. Right now I have them set at about 40% of their original values and this still results in a little too much edge enhancement for me. This is for a SD DirecTV input (SVideo). I found that the picture was too fuzzy when I turned them all the way down. Maybe I just got used to the edge enhancements....

Also, when I turned all the settings down like the original post suggested, I got strange black trails on high contrast/high speed action, like a hockey game (the puck, players). It sort of looked like very old video from the 70's when the cameras weren't able to recover between light levels very well. I never did turn down the two "12000" parameters so that might have been the cause, but I really have no idea.

-Greg
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post #25 of 28 Old 01-31-2006, 07:14 AM
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calinb,
Are the settings you mentioned in your above post all on the DNIe submenu or are they on different menus in the Service Menu?
Did you ever find out how to correct the overscan?
Thanks
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post #26 of 28 Old 05-21-2006, 07:59 PM
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Anyone know how to position the picture in the service menu? Is there an H-position and V-position type function?

My HD picture is slightly too low, I can see the ticker bar.
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post #27 of 28 Old 05-21-2006, 09:20 PM
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Yes there is a setting for it. I'm not sure offhand where it is without looking at the SM and I've turned my TV off for the night. I will check tomorrow evening if I remember.

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post #28 of 28 Old 05-22-2006, 09:15 AM
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Have you looked here (it's the 'S' series);

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=674513

Abundant OTA television is what makes this country different from all others. Lets keep it this way.
The Internet is no place for streaming video.
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