Samsung 2006 DLP HDTV Discussion --- HLSxxxxW Models - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 4534 Old 01-09-2006, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

3200 degrees kelvin in not white to any display or standard.

The television and movie industry will be very surprised to hear that since that is the studio standard.
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LED's are capable of producing a wider color gamut superior to other types of common and practical display lights.

TI loves LEDs so sit back and enjoy the ride:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=628374

Wider yes but it has large gaps in the spectrum. Take a quartz iodine lamp at 3200 degrees kelvin and shine it on a CD and look at the spectrum. Not do that with a white LED. See the gaps? Gaps are bad.
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post #92 of 4534 Old 01-09-2006, 08:42 AM
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nobody answered the question on the first page, is Samsung no longer producing the pedestal xx88, ie Kirk, series anymore ?
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post #93 of 4534 Old 01-09-2006, 08:42 AM
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PRESS RELEASE - Samsung, the market and technology leader in DLP micro-display panels advances high definition television viewing with its 7th generation line of high-end 1080p models. The new 87 Series DLPs - the 61" HL-S6187W, 56" HL-S5687 and the 50" HL-S5087W -- feature a sleek new design and Samsung's revolutionary DACS speaker system, at more affordable prices.

The 50" HL-S5687W, 56" HL-S5687W, and the 61" HL-S6187W feature the latest Texas Instruments DLP chip for true HD 1920 x 1080p HDTV images. The 1080p DLPs offer the ultimate in picture performance with an ultra high contrast ratio of 10,000:1 with superb brightness. The Cinema Smooth™ Gen 7 Exclusive Light Engine creates a picture with no visible pixel structure for a captivating, theater-quality experience.

From http://www.avinfo.co.uk/index.php?ma...iveID=15128207
which was posted today (1/9/06).

Edit: It does not appear the new 87 series uses LED's. At least, the press release does not mention anything about it.
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post #94 of 4534 Old 01-09-2006, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MizzouFan View Post

PRESS RELEASE - Samsung, the market and technology leader in DLP micro-display panels advances high definition television viewing with its 7th generation line of high-end 1080p models. The new 87 Series DLPs - the 61" HL-S6187W, 56" HL-S5687 and the 50" HL-S5087W -- feature a sleek new design and Samsung's revolutionary DACS speaker system, at more affordable prices.

The 50" HL-S5687W, 56" HL-S5687W, and the 61" HL-S6187W feature the latest Texas Instruments DLP chip for true HD 1920 x 1080p HDTV images. The 1080p DLPs offer the ultimate in picture performance with an ultra high contrast ratio of 10,000:1 with superb brightness. The Cinema Smooth Gen 7 Exclusive Light Engine creates a picture with no visible pixel structure for a captivating, theater-quality experience.

From http://www.avinfo.co.uk/index.php?ma...iveID=15128207
which was posted today (1/9/06).



Edit: It does not appear the new 87 series uses LED's. At least, the press release does not mention anything about it.

The 'sleek new design' is a thin bezel for these sets, like their old slim bezel except it is now black. (The 71" set still has the wider bezel, like on the hlr sets.) I believe the 1080p chips are still a wobulated version, maybe a next generation from those in the hlr's, but this needs more solid verification.
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post #95 of 4534 Old 01-09-2006, 08:56 AM
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Everything I've read says that this new "Gaming" mode REDUCES lag or ENHANCES response time. Can we assume that there are still issues (at least that are noticible) with lag and response time since they did not use a phrase like ELIMINATES lag?
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post #96 of 4534 Old 01-09-2006, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthJersey View Post

nobody answered the question on the first page, is Samsung no longer producing the pedestal xx88, ie Kirk, series anymore ?

There has not been any mention of the xx88 model successor so far from CES. It would not surprise me if the HLR5688W was the end of the line for the pedestal models.

> Bill
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post #97 of 4534 Old 01-09-2006, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misterjensen View Post

Everything I've read says that this new "Gaming" mode REDUCES lag or ENHANCES response time. Can we assume that there are still issues (at least that are noticible) with lag and response time since they did not use a phrase like ELIMINATES lag?

No ... all TV's need some processing time. What Samsung does is set a threshold value for AV sync. I believe that they targeted 60 ms for the past couple of years and the actual performance drifted higher into the 100 - 120 ms range. We will just have to wait until the TV's are actually released.

> Bill
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post #98 of 4534 Old 01-09-2006, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UCSB View Post

There has not been any mention of the xx88 model successor so far from CES. It would not surprise me if the HLR5688W was the end of the line for the pedestal models.

I just saw the pedestal model on the Costco web site (HLR 1080p). I do not think Costco would be selling this unique model if it was an ongoing model.
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post #99 of 4534 Old 01-09-2006, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UCSB View Post

No ... all TV's need some processing time. What Samsung does is set a threshold value for AV sync. I believe that they targeted 60 ms for the past couple of years and the actual performance drifted higher into the 100 - 120 ms range. We will just have to wait until the TV's are actually released.

I wonder if this game mode is truly a fix rather than an automatic mode to tweak the settings to be the best they can be in a poorly designed situation. I've been holding out on HDTV for a few years now, patiently waiting for a set like this (no rainbow effect, 1080P with 1080P inputs, beautiful space-saving black case, efficient LED's...). If it still stinks at video games, the wait continues.
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post #100 of 4534 Old 01-09-2006, 09:57 AM
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To anybody who saw this set in person: How were the viewing angles?
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post #101 of 4534 Old 01-09-2006, 10:08 AM
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I guess next year they could come out with a 5 color LED system adding colored LEDs to fill in the gaps (similar to the 5 or 6 color color wheels).

It would be interesting to find out how the new LED color engine works. Are they sequentially turning on and off the LEDs that quickly? If so, I guess that there is very little ramp time turning them on or off.
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post #102 of 4534 Old 01-09-2006, 10:42 AM
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Here is a paper by TI regarding the LED-DLP light engines.

 

167_LED_TV_white_paper.pdf 156.2587890625k . file
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post #103 of 4534 Old 01-09-2006, 11:24 AM
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I would be very interested (as I am sure we all would be) in learning the dimensions of the 87W series, especially the 50".

To the extent that information comes into your possession, please post it.
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post #104 of 4534 Old 01-09-2006, 11:38 AM
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When can we expect the HLR**78w series to come down in price now that we have this new model coming out in april '06?
I would hope the pricing will be below 3k.
Also is there any mention of the led bulb replacing existing bulb in the HLR series?
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post #105 of 4534 Old 01-09-2006, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Videopark View Post

One could claim that mixing three or four LED colors could create a good, full-spectrum white. However, narrow LED emission bands don't overlap. Thus, they generate a white spectrum with gaps.

http://www.signweb.com/neon/cont/allwhites.html

So you see it is not just the width of the color spectrum but the narrow bands of color that present problems in reproducing an even and full color spectrum.

Interesting article but it talks about why LEDs aren't good for lighting applications where colors are seen after subtracting from a white light. I can see how this would apply to a film projector but not for a microdisplay projector where you generate colors by combining three (or more) colored light sources. In fact, the article even says that the eye is fooled into seeing an equivalent white with as low as two colored sources:

Quote:


But, what happens if we block all but two, complementary colors? Based on the prior experiment, you'd expect a third color. Instead, the human eye sees white. Can white comprise only two colors?

Yes, the human eye is somehow fooled. This white and the original, primary white from the light source look equal, but aren't.

Besides, doesn't a lamp-based microdisplay throw away most of the color spectrum when it sends the light through red, green, and blue filters? Why is that better than an LED-based engine that uses three LEDs?

I know little about this stuff so I am genuinely asking to be educated. Thanks.
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post #106 of 4534 Old 01-09-2006, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schaffer970 View Post

Here is a paper by TI regarding the LED-DLP light engines.

Thanks schaffer970. What a boon for TI!! They sell another component for DLP TVs, a DSP to control the white point and lower the overall cost to make the DLP TV.
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post #107 of 4534 Old 01-09-2006, 01:43 PM
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I photoshopped the 56" HL-R5678W next to the new LED DLP to give an idea of the dimensions.
LL
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post #108 of 4534 Old 01-09-2006, 02:44 PM
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Thanks. It looks like it might be a tad smaller, given the small bezel.
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post #109 of 4534 Old 01-09-2006, 03:06 PM
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Does anyone know why Samsung's website omitted DLPs from their flash presentation of
CES? They have detailed flash presentations of their 80" LCD & 82" plasma. The only thing
they have is a press release that details the new DLPs.
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post #110 of 4534 Old 01-09-2006, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spear View Post

Interesting article but it talks about why LEDs aren't good for lighting applications where colors are seen after subtracting from a white light. I can see how this would apply to a film projector but not for a microdisplay projector where you generate colors by combining three (or more) colored light sources. In fact, the article even says that the eye is fooled into seeing an equivalent white with as low as two colored sources:

Besides, doesn't a lamp-based microdisplay throw away most of the color spectrum when it sends the light through red, green, and blue filters? Why is that better than an LED-based engine that uses three LEDs?

I know little about this stuff so I am genuinely asking to be educated. Thanks.

Imagine a while light and substract the spectrum that comtaind the red, blue and green colors. That's most of the spectrum. It is continuous and full with no gaps.

Now take the opposite and provide a red, green and blue light source. If you take a light bulb like a quartz-idonie incandescent, you will find a rather continuous stream of colors from red to blue. What happens to the LED is that the colors are narrow and don't spread out to include "all" the red, green and blues. You get narrow spikes. Those narrow spikes can't be combined to produce ALL the colors. You have gaps.

One observer at CES who saw the LED DLP set said, "Meanwhile, over at the TI booth, a prototype Samsung DLP PTV using LED illumination was being demonstrated. While the idea has potential, the color looked cartoonish. Of course, they were showing Madagascar, but nevertheless, the effect was too exaggerated.

With six and seven color wheels, you'll get more accurate colors than if you use three colors, especially if those colors do not contain the entire spectrum but have gaps.

Hope that helps.
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post #111 of 4534 Old 01-09-2006, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mello 1 View Post

Does anyone know why Samsung's website omitted DLPs from their flash presentation of
CES? They have detailed flash presentations of their 80" LCD & 82" plasma. The only thing
they have is a press release that details the new DLPs.

The Samsung LCD's were VERY nice - they should give Sony & Sharp a run for there money. The LED DLP's were a disappointment, frankly. Stick to the color wheel models for the present....
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post #112 of 4534 Old 01-09-2006, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Videopark View Post

With six and seven color wheels, you'll get more accurate colors than if you use three colors, especially if those colors do not contain the entire spectrum but have gaps.

Hope that helps.

No, that's an argument for using more than the three primary colors (ie. TI's BrilliantColor), but that's not what you initially claimed. You claimed that an RGB LED source was not as good for reproducing colors in a DLP RPTV as a lamp plus RGB color wheel (which contradicts TI's claims about the LED DLP).

You keep comparing a lamp-based white light to the light generated by a "white" LED but that's not relevant here because a lamp-based DLP filters the light. Can you explain (eg. wavelength distribution) why the red light that is generated by sending lamp light through a red filter is "richer" than the light from a red LED?
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post #113 of 4534 Old 01-10-2006, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spear View Post

You claimed that an RGB LED source was not as good for reproducing colors in a DLP RPTV as a lamp plus RGB color wheel (which contradicts TI's claims about the LED DLP).

Right. It is not as good if you want a complete and even spectrum. You wouldn't expect TI marketing to say negative things, would you?

You keep comparing a lamp-based white light to the light generated by a "white" LED but that's not relevant here because a lamp-based DLP filters the light.

It has to do with the spectrum. The colors are produced either by a filtering or a cold-cathode source. You need a continuous, smooth distribution of colors. You will have a smoother distribution of colors using a "traditional" light source.

Can you explain (eg. wavelength distribution) why the red light that is generated by sending lamp light through a red filter is "richer" than the light from a red LED?

Yes. It doesn't have any gaps in the spectrum.

From someone who has seen the set at CES: "Meanwhile, over at the TI booth, a prototype Samsung DLP PTV using LED illumination was being demonstrated. While the idea has potential (no detailed explanation of the technology was offered), the color looked cartoonish. Of course, they were showing Madagascar, but nevertheless, the effect was too exaggerated. TJN"
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post #114 of 4534 Old 01-10-2006, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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As I understand it right now, these are athe models that I am starting to accumulate spec's on:

79 series - LED based - xHD4, xHD5 or HD5 (my designation for non-wobulated 2006 model): 56"

78 series - higher-end 1080p - xHD5 or HD5 (non-wobulated): 71"

87 series - standard 1080p - wobulated xHD5 based: 50", 56", 61"

86 series - 720p - xHD5 based: 50", 56", 61"

66 series - 720p - xHD5 based: 42", 46" (2005 floating bezel cabinet design)

For those that attended CES, what additional screen sizes are being offered in the 78 series? Were any other models displayed that I do not have listed here? I am assuming the pedestal models are being discontinued. I would especially like to focus on the new 78 series.

> Bill
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post #115 of 4534 Old 01-10-2006, 11:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UCSB View Post

As I understand it right now, these are athe models that I am starting to accumulate spec's on:

79 series - LED based - xHD4, xHD5 or HD5 (my designation for non-wobulated 2006 model): 56"

78 series - higher-end 1080p - xHD5 or HD5 (non-wobulated): 71"

87 series - standard 1080p - wobulated xHD5 based: 50", 56", 61"

86 series - 720p - xHD5 based: 50", 56", 61"

66 series - 720p - xHD5 based: 42", 46" (2005 floating bezel cabinet design)

For those that attended CES, what additional screen sizes are being offered in the 78 series? Were any other models displayed that I do not have listed here? I am assuming the pedestal models are being discontinued. I would especially like to focus on the new 78 series.

shouldnt there be a 67" in there somewhere?
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post #116 of 4534 Old 01-10-2006, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jjsmithin View Post

shouldnt there be a 67" in there somewhere?

I need confirmation of a model (photo, demo card, comment by show attendee) before listing a model. Personally, I would expect more models in the 78 series, perhaps any one of the following: 56", 61", 67". If the 78 series is a premium series containing the non-wobulated 1080p chip, prices will be higher.

> Bill
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post #117 of 4534 Old 01-10-2006, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UCSB View Post

As I understand it right now, these are athe models that I am starting to accumulate spec's on:

79 series - LED based - xHD4, xHD5 or HD5 (my designation for non-wobulated 2006 model): 56"

78 series - higher-end 1080p - xHD5 or HD5 (non-wobulated): 71"

87 series - standard 1080p - wobulated xHD5 based: 50", 56", 61"

86 series - 720p - xHD5 based: 50", 56", 61"

66 series - 720p - xHD5 based: 42", 46" (2005 floating bezel cabinet design)

For those that attended CES, what additional screen sizes are being offered in the 78 series? Were any other models displayed that I do not have listed here? I am assuming the pedestal models are being discontinued. I would especially like to focus on the new 78 series.


Can somebody answer? What's the difference between the xHD5 and xHD4 chips? I'm thinking of purchasing the 2005 46" Samsung DLP. Does the new xHD5 chip + the additional HDMI input make it worth the wait to get the 2006 model? Thanks
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post #118 of 4534 Old 01-10-2006, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UCSB View Post

Personally, I would expect more models in the 78 series, perhaps any one of the following: 56", 61", 67".

Wasn't there a comment from someone at Samsung a few months ago that there would be one un-wobulated model on the market in 2006?
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post #119 of 4534 Old 01-10-2006, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murray32 View Post

Can somebody answer? What's the difference between the xHD5 and xHD4 chips? I'm thinking of purchasing the 2005 46" Samsung DLP. Does the new xHD5 chip + the additional HDMI input make it worth the wait to get the 2006 model? Thanks

Yikes ... thanks for pointing out a typo(s) on my earlier posting. Here is the corrected version:

As I understand it right now, these are athe models that I am starting to accumulate spec's on:

79 series - LED based - xHD4, xHD5 or HDNW (my designation for non-wobulated 2006 model): 56"

78 series - higher-end 1080p - xHD5 or HDNW (non-wobulated): 71"

87 series - standard 1080p - wobulated xHD5 based: 50", 56", 61"

86 series - 720p - HD5 based: 50", 56", 61"

66 series - 720p - HD5 based: 42", 46" (2005 floating bezel cabinet design)

If you are considering the 2005 46" set, it is a 720p set and uses the HD4 chip. The 46" 2006 set will use (we think) the new 2006 HD5 chip and a five color colorwheel. The HD5 is a smaller DLP chip and it is described in the TI press release at the top of this thread. We haven't sorted through all of the spec's on the 2006 models (it is a careful process and will take awhile). Since both the 2005 and 2006 models will be using the same cabinet, any changes from the colorwheel and smaller DLP will probably be small. I don't think the 2006 720p sets will have an additional HDMI input.

> Bill
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post #120 of 4534 Old 01-10-2006, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murray32 View Post

Can somebody answer? What's the difference between the xHD5 and xHD4 chips? I'm thinking of purchasing the 2005 46" Samsung DLP. Does the new xHD5 chip + the additional HDMI input make it worth the wait to get the 2006 model? Thanks

Perhaps the most important improvement for some people with the new 1080p sets will be a 1080p input. But with a 46" size set, I really doubt that will make much difference. And I doubt that the PQ on a 46" set will be much better on the new sets than the pesent hlr's (but you should hear from some more expert opinions than mine!). I would think that if you can strike a really good deal for one of the present hlr sets that this would be a good move. (And you don't have to wait!)
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