Samsung 1080p Owner's Thread --- HLSxx87W/HLSxx88W DLP Models - Page 259 - AVS Forum
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post #7741 of 21399 Old 09-25-2006, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Eliab View Post

The built in patterns are good to physically center the DMD module. However, to center an external image, an external pattern is usually preferred. I think that you may find that the DVE overscan pattern (T.12, CH. 17) will not be centered on your display.

Eliab


makes sense, external is prefered for all test patterns I have used. But it looks good to me for now....if I go much lower, the word "Enter" on the on screen menu would get cropped a bit..though the odd thing is that on wider aspect material the black bar at the bottom is wider than the top bar....but if I lower it, things will be cropped at the bottom (sports tickers would be).

Anything I can do about that? OR could it be the sources as I have heard others mention this too. Tickers at the top of the screen do not look pushed up towar the edge, so it does seem centered....plus I get no edge noise.

Suggestions?
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post #7742 of 21399 Old 09-25-2006, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by NFLFAN05 View Post

makes sense, external is prefered for all test patterns I have used. But it looks good to me for now....if I go much lower, the word "Enter" on the on screen menu would get cropped a bit..though the odd thing is that on wider aspect material the black bar at the bottom is wider than the top bar....but if I lower it, things will be cropped at the bottom (sports tickers would be).

Anything I can do about that? OR could it be the sources as I have heard others mention this too. Tickers at the top of the screen do not look pushed up towar the edge, so it does seem centered....plus I get no edge noise.

Suggestions?

Could actually be your DVD player that's slightly off center. You may simply want to split the difference between the internal pattern and your DVD player.

Eliab
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post #7743 of 21399 Old 09-25-2006, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Eliab View Post

Could actually be your DVD player that's slightly off center. You may simply want to split the difference between the internal pattern and your DVD player.

Eliab


I think the DVD player is off, but I also see it with the STB. But like I said I really can't lower it more or tickers will be off.

Well, as long as it is not a defect in the TV, I can always just wait till January when I sign up for your calibration services
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post #7744 of 21399 Old 09-25-2006, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post

I think the DVD player is off, but I also see it with the STB. But like I said I really can't lower it more or tickers will be off.

And overscan is definitely off?

Quote:


Well, as long as it is not a defect in the TV, I can always just wait till January when I sign up for your calibration services

Where are you abouts?

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post #7745 of 21399 Old 09-25-2006, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Eliab View Post

And overscan is definitely off?


Where are you abouts?

Eliab


Oh yeah, it's off. I can tell because when it'd on, the ESPN ticker is flush with the bezel. When it's off, there is a good amount of room between the bezel and the bottom of the logo. Overscan is a global setting, correct?

Does this sound like a TV defect?

I'm in PA, so not far from you.
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post #7746 of 21399 Old 09-25-2006, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post

Oh yeah, it's off. I can tell because when it'd on, the ESPN ticker is flush with the bezel. When it's off, there is a good amount of room between the bezel and the bottom of the logo. Overscan is a global setting, correct?

Does this sound like a TV defect?

I just wanted to make sure. It doesn't sound like a defect though.


Quote:


I'm in PA, so not far from you.

Considering that I'll be flying out to Portland and Seattle on Thursday and then driving through 14 states in a couple of weeks to perform a number of calibrations...you're practically a stones throw away.

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post #7747 of 21399 Old 09-25-2006, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Eliab View Post

I just wanted to make sure. It doesn't sound like a defect though.



Considering that I'll be flying out to Portland and Seattle on Thursday and then driving through 14 states in a couple of weeks to perform a number of calibrations...you're practically a stones throw away.

Eliab


Hmm, you know I just popped in a DVD and the bars top and bottom are alot closer in size than I had remembered (from yesterday. They might be 1/4" different. When I zoom in to make the bars smaller and easier to see size differences, it is still only about a 1/4" difference...no big deal.

Yeah, I would imagine with all the traveling you do, PA must be a nice easy day trip I am very much looking foward to seeing what this set can do when you're done with it. My birthday is in January, and that is my gift I'm the guy who retruned the 87 for the 88, so my wife made me wait for the calibration But no regrets as I do like my 88 better since I can keep overscan off. The only thing this set has wrong is a hairline scratch on the inner screen that I have to be a foot away to see...I can't see it from sitting distance. I think I won't push my luck with an exchange as my 87 had a slight smudge and that WAS noticible from sitting distance.

Oh well, nothing is perfect, better this defect than another
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post #7748 of 21399 Old 09-25-2006, 08:48 PM
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If you think the picture is good now, when Eliab is finished with it you will be amazed at the difference, especially with HD DVD. That sounds like an excellent birthday present!

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post #7749 of 21399 Old 09-25-2006, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

If you think the picture is good now, when Eliab is finished with it you will be amazed at the difference, especially with HD DVD. That sounds like an excellent birthday present!


Yes it is, though my wife doesn't understand it....she thinks it weird that it won't be like a gift I can open. But it's the gift that keeps on giving


I am holding off on the HD DVD player....I know they look amazing, but I want to see what happens with the formats. And at least wait a few generations and 1080p native output. Then I'll buy and be amazed all over again
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post #7750 of 21399 Old 09-25-2006, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliab View Post

That seems like too much. What screen size mode are you in? Also, what pattern are you using to determine your overscan?

Eliab

Eliab,

I have a 5687. Here are some images from my testing. Each image is full size and is about 750K in size.
  • DirecTV HR20 connected to HDMI1 (1080i)
    1. Overscan On: IMG_0244, 6% Vertical, 8% Horizontal
    2. Overscan Off: IMG_0245, 3% Vertical, 5% Horizontal
  • Scientific Atlanta 8300HD connected to HDMI2 (1080i)
    1. Overscan On: IMG_0246, 6% Vertical, 8% Horizontal
    2. Overscan Off: IMG_0247, 3% Vertical, 5% Horizontal
  • Sony DVP-NS755V connected to COMP1 (480p)
    1. Overscan On: IMG_0248, 4% Vertical, 3% Horizontal
    2. Overscan Off: IMG_0249, 4% Vertical, 3% Horizontal

I had been using the HDNet Test Patterns because I hadn't yet received DVE. When using the HDNet Test Patterns, I noticed the H-Position and V-Position looked out of whack when centering on the test pattern rather than the outline the service menu provides.

I recieved DVE today and found that the H-Position and V-Position looked right when centering on the test pattern and comparing to the outline the service menu provides. There is no difference in the test pattern when turning off overscan. I can only assume this is because I'm using 480p over component. I'll redo the test once I recieve my upconverting DVD player.

Thoughts?

Paul

P.S. Thanks so much for all the great information and help you provide!
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post #7751 of 21399 Old 09-25-2006, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ronparr View Post

Here's my reasoning about the ambient light issue: When I think back about how we possibly could have missed the RBE in the store when it seems so salient at home, I come up with the following possibilities:

- Ambient Lighting: The stores had much more light around the set than my home does.

- Controlled content: The material shown on the sets in the store could have been chosen or engineered to minimize RBE.

The controlled content argument might explain a part of it, but I do recall seeing a Blu-Ray "Ultraviolet" demo running as well as some other content that matches what I now understand to be my profile for creating RBE. The Ultraviolet demo, with it's deep colors and huge dynamic range was one of the things that sold me on the set. When I think back about those demos, I'm amazed that I didn't see RBE in that context. From this, I conclude that, for me at least, the lighting conditions must be a contributing factor since it's the only other major variable I can think of that differed from my home setup.

The stores have fluorescent lighting whereas most homes do not. I wonder if this has anything to do with it?

I'll be setting my 61" Sammy 87 up next week hopefully (assuming delivery is on time) and floor to ceiling windows (with shades) are right behind it. Most of my viewing is at night but on Sundays football will have plenty of natural back-lighting. Rest assured I'll report what I find.
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post #7752 of 21399 Old 09-25-2006, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by janno25 View Post

I'm new to this thread and was hoping someone could help. I am looking to buy a tv soon and am really considering the Samsung HL-S6187W or 5687W. I do not know anything about tvs and don't quite understand everything you guys discuss. Can someone put it simple for me? Are these good tvs, Do you recommend the extended warranty, how long are they expected to last? The salesman at CC was not very helpful. He basically told me that none of the DLP or LCD lasts longer than 2 to 5 years! That seems ridiculous to me. I actually was leaning towards the Sony XBR but the other thread scared me off.

Also, does anyone have any advice about where to purchase. I was comparing CC & BB but on-line seems to give you a better deal. I was looking at VANNS - free SH and no tax but I don't know how their follow-up service is. Someone please help!!! I have been watching a 20" TV from a distance of 15 feet. My eyes are hurting me!!

I sympathize. I know how overwhelming all this can be to someone new to the HDTV world. I'll try to help.

Yes, these are good TVs, but not flawless. DLPs, like all the new technologies (LCD, LCoS, Plasma, etc.), is in it's infancy and has its problems. The salesman at CC is in the ballpark. We've gone from TVs that cost $300 and last 10 to 15 years, to TV's that cost $3000 and last 3 to 5 years. I don't know if HDTVs will ever get back down to the $300 mark, but as the technologies mature, they will probably last considerably longer. However, I'll be pushing up daisies by the time that comes to be.

Where to purchase? OY! There are a lot of options. Most of them have conflicting stories. I bought my HL-S5687 from TVAuthority.com, and had virtually no problems whatsoever. Others have reported a variety of problems. I suspect the same situation exists for just about every vendor available, including CC, BB, and Vanns. Do your homework, but you will not find a vendor that has satisfied everybody. Be sure you know and understand the vendors return policy, and how any problems will be handled.

Extended Warranty. I do not believe in extended warranties, and have never bought one...................................................until I bought an HDTV with one of these new technologies. I would not buy an HDTV today without an extended warranty. Again, do your homework. You can find apparently decent extended warranties for reasonable prices.

TelevisionWarranties.com

TVAuthority Warranties

I have a Repairmaster warranty from TVAuthority, but have not had occasion to use it, so I cannot say the warranty works as advertised. But, I sure feel better having it.

Jack
 

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post #7753 of 21399 Old 09-26-2006, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post

Hmm, you know I just popped in a DVD and the bars top and bottom are alot closer in size than I had remembered (from yesterday. They might be 1/4" different. When I zoom in to make the bars smaller and easier to see size differences, it is still only about a 1/4" difference...no big deal.

I agree...no big deal.

Quote:


Yeah, I would imagine with all the traveling you do, PA must be a nice easy day trip I am very much looking foward to seeing what this set can do when you're done with it. My birthday is in January, and that is my gift I'm the guy who retruned the 87 for the 88, so my wife made me wait for the calibration But no regrets as I do like my 88 better since I can keep overscan off. The only thing this set has wrong is a hairline scratch on the inner screen that I have to be a foot away to see...I can't see it from sitting distance. I think I won't push my luck with an exchange as my 87 had a slight smudge and that WAS noticible from sitting distance.

Oh well, nothing is perfect, better this defect than another

If the scratch cannot be seen at your normal viewing distance, I would definitely not exchanged it - especially if you're happy with the rest of it. The fact of the matter is that these displays are not perfect. If one looks long and hard, they're bound to find some little flaw. It sounds like overall you have a good one though.

Eliab
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post #7754 of 21399 Old 09-26-2006, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

If you think the picture is good now, when Eliab is finished with it you will be amazed at the difference, especially with HD DVD. That sounds like an excellent birthday present!

Wouldn't be the first time. I get wives calling me up at least a half dozen times a year to calibrate their husband's display for their B-day. But the funniest thing is that in every case, at some point during our short conversation, I get something like, "The TV looks fine to me...I think he's a little crazy but if it makes him happy...." The coolest part is seeing the wife "get it" once I finish calibrating the display.

Eliab
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post #7755 of 21399 Old 09-26-2006, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgfitzgerald View Post

Eliab,

I have a 5687. Here are some images from my testing. Each image is full size and is about 750K in size.
  • DirecTV HR20 connected to HDMI1 (1080i)
    1. Overscan On: IMG_0244, 6% Vertical, 8% Horizontal
    2. Overscan Off: IMG_0245, 3% Vertical, 5% Horizontal
  • Scientific Atlanta 8300HD connected to HDMI2 (1080i)
    1. Overscan On: IMG_0246, 6% Vertical, 8% Horizontal
    2. Overscan Off: IMG_0247, 3% Vertical, 5% Horizontal
  • Sony DVP-NS755V connected to COMP1 (480p)
    1. Overscan On: IMG_0248, 4% Vertical, 3% Horizontal
    2. Overscan Off: IMG_0249, 4% Vertical, 3% Horizontal

I had been using the HDNet Test Patterns because I hadn't yet received DVE. When using the HDNet Test Patterns, I noticed the H-Position and V-Position looked out of whack when centering on the test pattern rather than the outline the service menu provides.

I recieved DVE today and found that the H-Position and V-Position looked right when centering on the test pattern and comparing to the outline the service menu provides. There is no difference in the test pattern when turning off overscan. I can only assume this is because I'm using 480p over component. I'll redo the test once I recieve my upconverting DVD player.

Thoughts?

Paul

P.S. Thanks so much for all the great information and help you provide!

You're welcome. There's no doubt that based on the pattern that you've photographed - your overscan seems excessive. I would much prefer to see a pic of the DVE overscan pattern though.

Eliab
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post #7756 of 21399 Old 09-26-2006, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Eliab View Post

Wouldn't be the first time. I get wives calling me up at least a half dozen times a year to calibrate their husband's display for their B-day. But the funniest thing is that in every case, at some point during our short conversation, I get something like, "The TV looks fine to me...I think he's a little crazy but if it makes him happy...." The coolest part is seeing the wife "get it" once I finish calibrating the display.

Eliab

Lol, That sounds like my wife EXACTLY!! "It looks great to me, but if it makes you happy." She is still happy watching the 27" we have in the more formal living room. I haven't looked at it in the month since I have had the 61" until last night and it hurt my eyes to see it. I really am curious to see if she can tell the difference after calibration though. 5 months
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post #7757 of 21399 Old 09-26-2006, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Tweakophyte View Post

In need some potential FUD clean up, please. I was in a store yesterday where the guy seemed to know his stuff. He said they took a 1080p source (blue ray) and plugged it into the Sammy x87 and x88 and they could not get either TV to resolve the picture (i.e. no picture). He said that 1080p input was in the mfg. specs, but no one could get it to work.

Has anyone verified both of these TV resolve 1080p, and if so, under what inputs?

Thanks,

PS He is also pushing me towards the Mits 732/831, which he says does take 1080p via thier tests...

Hi-

Thank you to those that verified your sucess with 1080p. I should ask if it is 1080p/24 or 1080p/60.

Thanks again,


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post #7758 of 21399 Old 09-26-2006, 05:46 AM
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One more...

Besides cosmetics, what is the difference between the xx87 and xx88 model? I could not find it. (Sorry for the dumb one...). Are the engines the same? How about the scalars?

How did you decide between the two?

Thanks,


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post #7759 of 21399 Old 09-26-2006, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweakophyte View Post

One more...

Besides cosmetics, what is the difference between the xx87 and xx88 model? I could not find it. (Sorry for the dumb one...). Are the engines the same? How about the scalars?

How did you decide between the two?

Thanks,


The 88 has some additional features like firewire, QAM tuner, cable card slot, PIP, and some TV guide feature.

The big difference that isn't advertised is that you can turn off overscan on both models, but it will on stay off on the 88. With the 87 it reverts back after you turn it off. If that's not a big deal, and you don't need the features than the 87 is the same tv otherwise. For me, the 88 was worth a little extra.
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post #7760 of 21399 Old 09-26-2006, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by NFLFAN05 View Post

The 88 has some additional features like...

Thanks!


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post #7761 of 21399 Old 09-26-2006, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliab View Post

You're welcome. There's no doubt that based on the pattern that you've photographed - your overscan seems excessive. I would much prefer to see a pic of the DVE overscan pattern though.

Eliab

I don't believe the HDNet test pattern measures percent overscan. Frankly, I am not sure what the unit of measurement is, but I am fairly certain it is not a percentage.

There was a fine website that explained how to use the HDNet overscan pattern to compute percent overscan, but it appears to be down now. Here is a link to where it used to be.

http://www.smartcalibration.com/hdnetoverscan.html

And here is Google's cached copy.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...irefox&strip=1

According to the site, HDNet responded to the question of what the pattern is measuring by saying:

"The scales on the side of the test pattern are simply there to give a scale for comparison. Someday soon, I will have our graphic artist change these over to the proper %."

Hope this helps,
Mark
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post #7762 of 21399 Old 09-26-2006, 06:43 AM
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Hey guys,

I got the 5688 and the OTA Antenna pic looks pretty darn good. A little video noise but very good.

HOWEVER, I have an old Sony DVP S7700 with component cable and for the most part the few rentals of movies I've gotten look soft from different views, and with lots of sky or whites I see a good amount of SSE.

My SD DTV looks the same way. I've seen claims the Mits 831 series is supposed to have a lot less of SSE????

I know the term garbage in garbage out is what you'll all say.

I'm on the last 10 days or so of my in home 30 trial from Tweeter. I called the store and they will be sending out a tech to judge PQ on all sources, but not till Oct.11 unless there's a cancelled appt. by someone ahead of me.

Also my salesman suggested going into one of their stores where the same Sammy is on display with both SD and HD DTV signals. I think I will bring MY DVD player in with me to see if it looks and better/worse there.
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post #7763 of 21399 Old 09-26-2006, 06:45 AM
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Questions for anyone that has a mix of weak and strong OTA stations and is using analog cable:

How are the tuners performance compared to any other tuner you mat have (VCR, DVR and other TV)?? What I mean by "weak" are signals that are very noisey, but watchable. By "strong" I mean signals that are less than 8 miles away (no low power stations). BTW, I turned that silly preamp off on the channels involved. With it on, all were unwatchable!
For cable, how are the low band channels 2-6 if you have a borderline signal where you are already having minor issues with those channels?
I have two other tuners connected the same way and NO problems with those.

Regarding pincushining, how much is it noticeable on 4x3 material where it would be notiecable the most? IOWs', on a 50" set, 10" in from each side.

Abundant OTA television is what makes this country different from all others. Lets keep it this way.
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post #7764 of 21399 Old 09-26-2006, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by mczolton View Post

I don't believe the HDNet test pattern measures percent overscan. Frankly, I am not sure what the unit of measurement is, but I am fairly certain it is not a percentage.

There was a fine website that explained how to use the HDNet overscan pattern to compute percent overscan, but it appears to be down now. Here is a link to where it used to be.

http://www.smartcalibration.com/hdnetoverscan.html

And here is Google's cached copy.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...irefox&strip=1

According to the site, HDNet responded to the question of what the pattern is measuring by saying:

"The scales on the side of the test pattern are simply there to give a scale for comparison. Someday soon, I will have our graphic artist change these over to the proper %."

Hope this helps,
Mark

Well that makes more sense. If you take that into consideration, here are my overscan percentages:
  • DirecTV HR20 connected to HDMI1 (1080i)
    1. Overscan On: IMG_0244 , 3.25% Vertical, 5% Horizontal
    2. Overscan Off: IMG_0245, 1.75% Vertical, 2.5% Horizontal
  • Scientific Atlanta 8300HD connected to HDMI2 (1080i)
    1. Overscan On: IMG_0246, 3.25% Vertical, 5% Horizontal
    2. Overscan Off: IMG_0247, 1.75% Vertical, 2.5% Horizontal
  • Sony DVP-NS755V connected to COMP1 (480p)
    1. Overscan On: IMG_0248, 4% Vertical, 3% Horizontal
    2. Overscan Off: IMG_0249, 4% Vertical, 3% Horizontal

That's not nearly as bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliab View Post

You're welcome. There's no doubt that based on the pattern that you've photographed - your overscan seems excessive. I would much prefer to see a pic of the DVE overscan pattern though.

Eliab

The last two images are from DVE's Title 12, Chapter 17 (1.33 Overscan Pattern). There doesn't seem to be a 16:9 (1.78) Overscan Pattern on the DVD. Wouldn't that make a difference when testing the horizontal overscan?

Paul
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post #7765 of 21399 Old 09-26-2006, 07:45 AM
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^I'm about to test the same DVE patterns this week with my new 5088w and I was wondering if it is possible to get 0% overscan?

I need to work out some bugs that I was having last week when I connected my PC via HDMI and trying to get 1920x1080p.
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post #7766 of 21399 Old 09-26-2006, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rijax View Post

... We've gone from TVs that cost $300 and last 10 to 15 years, to TV's that cost $3000 and last 3 to 5 years ...

I won't argue about the absurd pricing, but what evidence is there that a current HL-S DLP, for example, will last only 3 to 5 years? What makes these sets useless (?) after that time period?

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post #7767 of 21399 Old 09-26-2006, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryT View Post

Well the replacement 5687 arrived today. So far so good. Clean screen and no unusual noises so far.

Looks like a bit more overscan on this one looking at the DVE grid, and needs to be adjusted upwards a bit. Also the focus is just a tad off on this one, but not enough to cause any problems. When I get it calibrated that should take care of it.

This brings me to my next question. I've done some searches for the service menu and adjustments, but get bits and pieces of info. Does anybody know of a link or thread that tells you how to get in for some basic adjustments, and more importantly, how to get back out and save everything correctly.

Hopefully someone can point me to a thread with this info. I've been to the Tech Links thread, but the service menu stuff is a bit thin, and I sure don't want to mess anything up.

Thanks in advance.

Hi guys, just moving this up to see if anybody has any input on this issue. I figure if not, I'll probably return this set as well in a couple of weeks.

JerryT
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post #7768 of 21399 Old 09-26-2006, 08:53 AM
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Is the only reset for the '88' series in the service menu? What does removing power for a few minutes do other than the TV Guide listings?

Abundant OTA television is what makes this country different from all others. Lets keep it this way.
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post #7769 of 21399 Old 09-26-2006, 09:15 AM
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I am aware that having a proper ISF calibration of my 6187 might help with the slight RBE I am experience, but I was just curious why it would help.

Is it the bightness (which as previously stated, I currently don't mond) that would be adjusted with respect to the dynamic iris or is anything having to do with the gamma? (forgive the timid noob question concerning a subject matter that I am no where close to be an expert in)

I'm just curious at what could be taking place and, if I have time, whether I should try to have my set professionally calibrated before the return policy runs out, in about 20 days.

Thank you in advance.
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post #7770 of 21399 Old 09-26-2006, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rijax View Post

I sympathize............

........ We've gone from TVs that cost $300 and last 10 to 15 years, to TV's that cost $3000 and last 3 to 5 years. ................

Where'd this information come from? If my new tv is only going to last 3-5 years it may be the last one I ever buy.............

Silence is golden but duct tape is silver......
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