DON'T BUY 1080p TVs! - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 11:22 AM
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With all due respect, Auditor, when someone says to address their merits, or address their argument on its merits, they mean their points; they are not implying that their points are meritorious.

http://dictionary.reference.com/sear...20its%20merits
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post #362 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 11:44 AM
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post #363 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 01:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrkarp
With all due respect, Auditor, when someone says to address their merits, or address their argument on its merits, they mean their points; they are not implying that their points are meritorious.

http://dictionary.reference.com/sear...20its%20merits
A simple question to you sir, what is the meaning of the word "Merit"?
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post #364 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 01:20 PM
 
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Since you took so long I will answer it.

To make things plain and simple the word "merit" means "worth".
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post #365 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 01:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David F
Please provide the scientific, quantifiable documentation that proves that "all hell would have broken out" if we only had DVDs or standard def television to watch on 720p sets. Since you're so quick to dismiss arguments that haven't had double-blind testing, please either (a) dismiss your own argument as meritless, or (b) provide substantiating documentation.
You're kidding right? :)

I'm going to use legal speak to address your post. This legal speak come the latin word "RES IPSA LOQUITUR " which means "the thing speaks for itself."

It is evident of its face. If you sale folks HDTV sets at a premium price, without any HD content at some point and time there's going to be a serious backlash.
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post #366 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by RTK
I look forward to seeing his answer to your questions above however...
You certainly called that one, Rick! :)

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post #367 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 01:34 PM
 
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"While 1080p content is always welcome, its a foolish argument that one should avoid a 1080p display because of the lack of 1080p source material for all the reasons you have given. "

Would that also be true of sets that lack 1080p inputs?
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post #368 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
In all due respects, I think it’s rather presumptuous of you to declare that your argument has any merit. We have yet to decide upon that.

As for the question that you are attempting to badger me with, at this point I’m going to answer it in legal speak, “it’s been asked and answeredâ€
When has this been answered exactly?

Point me to the link where this has been answered. Also I do not agree that the question that was asked is without any merit. In my personal opinion upscaled DVD look better than native DVD at 480p. Since this whole argument is about personal opinion, I think you have every right to disagree with the concept of HD at 1080p. BUT, there are a lot of people, myself included, who believe that 1080p is a great HD resolution.

So in conclusion, your argument is perfectly legit. However, most people on this forum will disagree with you because they have seen a drastic difference between normal 480p, 720p, and even the 1080p settings. I wil stick with my 1080p and will agree with all my buddies as they comment on the fact that my 1080p display is beautiful!!!!
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post #369 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 01:57 PM
 
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:rolleyes:
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As for 1080p being the be-all end all, I disagree. 1080p is clearly insufficient for D-cinema applications,
I suggest that you say "in my opinion" before making your above statements. I believe the global moviegoing market would be just find with cinema 1080p applications.

To come in to the AUDIO VIDEO SCIENCE FORUM and make such a dogmatic statement without citing any market research from among the global moviegoing public that they some how feel cinema 1080p is insufficient strikes as intellectual arrogance.

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and I fully expect that in the distant future higher-resolution will likely reach the home as well. Currently it may seem like the "ultimate" but that's only for the time being, and within the limited confines of the home environment.
I'm sure the manufacturers, corporateers, marketeers and profiteers are looking forward to the distant future and sooner rather than later :rolleyes:

This is how they (Industry Plants) work, they drop a hint (seed) letting you know what is to come, but first they must make you believe what you already have is insufficient or obsolete.

BTW, I'm not calling Chriswiggles an Industry Plant. But for those Industry Plants who are in here, they know who they are, I just want you to know that I'm not going anywhere. :p
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post #370 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 01:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runninkyle17
When has this been answered exactly?

Point me to the link where this has been answered. Also I do not agree that the question that was asked is without any merit. In my personal opinion upscaled DVD look better than native DVD at 480p. Since this whole argument is about personal opinion, I think you have every right to disagree with the concept of HD at 1080p. BUT, there are a lot of people, myself included, who believe that 1080p is a great HD resolution.

So in conclusion, your argument is perfectly legit. However, most people on this forum will disagree with you because they have seen a drastic difference between normal 480p, 720p, and even the 1080p settings. I wil stick with my 1080p and will agree with all my buddies as they comment on the fact that my 1080p display is beautiful!!!!
See post # 308
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post #371 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
Since you took so long I will answer it.

To make things plain and simple the word "merit" means "worth".
Its meaning depends on the context.

And something with very little worth still has some worth.

So using your own definition, something has merits even if it is not very meritorious.

But your definition is in correct for the context in which the word is being used here. You should stop arguing for the sake of arguing.

And I apologize for not being there waiting by my computer for the 10 minutes between when you posted the question and when you answered it yourself. Maybe I can find a way to set my account so that when Auditor55 replies to a thread, I will get an instant notification on my cell phone so that I can drop everything and rush to the computer.
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post #372 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 02:17 PM
 
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Auditor55, that is rather vague statement to make and do you actually know the viewing distance the average movie patron likes to sit from the screen?
No I don't know the viewing distance that average patron likes to sit from the screen, what I do know is that when I plan to go to theater and If don't get there early enough I'm going to be sitting up close.


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Auditor55, what though does this prove except that a 50" 768p and 50" 1080p display will not have much of a noticeable difference at an 8 foot viewing distance?
That is exacly what it proves. So if you are trying to decide on a 50 inch plasma, one that's 1080p vs. one that's 768p and you are restricted to 8 feet viewing distance I would advise not spend a premium price on a 1080p marketing hyped plasma.
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post #373 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 02:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Its meaning depends on the context.
But the word "merit" has a meaning that stands on its own, no matter what context one decides to use it in.

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And something with very little worth still has some worth.
But you that's subjective, its a judgment call. There are things without worth or worthless.

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Maybe I can find a way to set my account so that when Auditor55 replies to a thread, I will get an instant notification on my cell phone so that I can drop everything and rush to the computer.
Doing so would greatly improve your overall self worth. :D
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post #374 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
But the word "merit" has a meaning that stands on its own, no matter what context one decides to use it in.
You're not serious with that statement, are you? I know you're difficult and obtuse, but I don't think you're stupid.
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post #375 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
This is how they (Industry Plants) work, they drop a hint (seed) letting you know what is to come, but first they must make you believe what you already have is insufficient or obsolete.
So if I understand you correctly, you believe that the industry specifically pays people to come here and attempt to prevent you from buying a TV that is on the market today, so that they can sell you an unreleased technology tomorrow?
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post #376 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 03:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
In all due respects, I think it’s rather presumptuous of you to declare that your argument has any merit. We have yet to decide upon that.

As for the question that you are attempting to badger me with, at this point I’m going to answer it in legal speak, “it’s been asked and answeredâ€
No, it's not presumptuous at all.

My argument is based on:
1) objective studies about the capability of the Human Vision System
2) Your own links written by professionals
3) My own long-term experience with high end displays with various content and at various viewing ratios
4) the similar experiences of many video professionals, AGAIN including those in your own links
5) Basic imaging theory with continuous-tone imaging and the benefits of upscaling an image based on these kinds of images. This is covered in any relevant imaging text.

Lastly, no you have not addressed my question at all, which is why I asked it a second time. I'll ask it again, because you don't want to address it at all:

1)What is the best way to watch Standard Definition content?
2) Do you watch SD content (say from a DVD) on a display that matches the native resolution of the content (480)?
3) If so on number 2, Do you feel this is the best possible way to view standard definition content?
4)Most importantly: are you asserting that upscaling and viewing on a display with greater resolution provides no improvements in the image with regards to either the display of the actual source content, or the actual structure of the display?


Note that number 4 is largely rhetorical, and I do admit that, as the previous 3 address this question in different ways. I also admit that it is largely rhetorical because it is established in basic imaging theory. However, it is clear to me in your arguments that you may implicitly be ignoring this essential point, and I am attepting to clarify this issue. Because if you are arguing from a perspective that is in clear abrogation of basic assumptions with regards to imaging, I need to know that at the beginning, otherwise the discussions are pointless because I am too far ahead in the subject and wasting time.
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post #377 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 03:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
See post # 308
That post does not address my question at all. It has a bunch of side points which I refuted previously.

Stop BSing and address the substance of the discussion. If you refuse to address my questions, I am going to have to assume your answers for you, and that would be unfortunate. I'm not asking anything particularly difficult of you. Just how the best way to watch DVDs is. Doesn't even involve 1080p displays directly. Doesn't involve 1080p content. Doesn't involve questions of budget.

It's a simple question, answer it directly.
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post #378 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 03:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
No I don't know the viewing distance that average patron likes to sit from the screen, what I do know is that when I plan to go to theater and If don't get there early enough I'm going to be sitting up close.
I'm glad you admit to not knowing what you're talking about. Next time defer to the folks like myself who get out the measuring tape regularly to figure out their viewing ratios in various theater environments as a frame of reference.


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That is exacly what it proves. So if you are trying to decide on a 50 inch plasma, one that's 1080p vs. one that's 768p and you are restricted to 8 feet viewing distance I would advise not spend a premium price on a 1080p marketing hyped plasma.
Nobody ever claimed otherwise. Your illustration here proves my point marvelously. I agree, at this far away 1080p is largely a moot point. My point since the beginning was that display choice relates to viewing ratio, IRRELEVANT of source content. At some viewing ratios, 1080p is unecessary, at others it may provide advantages for an average or advanced viewer.
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post #379 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 03:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrkarp
You're not serious with that statement, are you? I know you're difficult and obtuse, but I don't think you're stupid.
At this point "stupid" seems like the category of lesser insult. If he still won't answer my questions and address the substance of the discussion, I will have to assume he's worse than stupid: that he actually does understand what I'm saying, and that in the face of it he ignores the substance and continues to argue just for the sake of arguing and enlarging his forum-member.

I've explained things to "stupid" people before, and it's a lot easier than this is, unfortunately.
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post #380 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
"While 1080p content is always welcome, its a foolish argument that one should avoid a 1080p display because of the lack of 1080p source material for all the reasons you have given. "

Would that also be true of sets that lack 1080p inputs?
Would what also be true of sets that lack 1080p inputs?

Rick
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post #381 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 03:51 PM
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I've got to say, folks, that I am becoming more and more convinced by the idea that the RP forum is plagued by one or two people hiding behind multiple handles, with their sole intent being to troll. I've been in plenty of forums where people argued, but usually these were arguments resulting from legitimate differences of opinion, and anyone trolling was readily identifiable. Here, in this forum, I would not be surprised to find that we have one schizoid with 5 different handles, each representing a carefully crafted personality.

We've got way too many personalities in this forum who use the obfuscate and dodge trolling tactic. That is the one thing that all of these personalities have in common.

Perhaps I'm reading a bit too much into it. But the pattern is there, whether it means anything or not.


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post #382 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles
At this point "stupid" seems like the category of lesser insult. If he still won't answer my questions and address the substance of the discussion, I will have to assume he's worse than stupid: that he actually does understand what I'm saying, and that in the face of it he ignores the substance and continues to argue just for the sake of arguing and enlarging his forum-member.

I've explained things to "stupid" people before, and it's a lot easier than this is, unfortunately.
Chris,
He does understand what you are saying and at this point he is just digging in to his position. His refusal to answer your questions is enough validation that this "witness" knows that his answers will result in perjury or statements that will weaken his credibility as an "expert."

All he can do at this point is attack the person or credibility of the person asking the questions or change the topic as he will not answer questions directly. This has been demonstrated repeatedly.

So what is the correct action? Ask him no further questions or reply to any of his "opinions." Leave him alone.

"...Enlarging his forum member?" You're not really implying that he... ;)

Rick
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post #383 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
You're kidding right? :)

I'm going to use legal speak to address your post. This legal speak come the latin word "RES IPSA LOQUITUR " which means "the thing speaks for itself."

It is evident of its face. If you sale folks HDTV sets at a premium price, without any HD content at some point and time there's going to be a serious backlash.
It is not evident of its face. The very simple fact is that for years the majority of HDTV sets sold in the United States (a) did not have an internal ATSC tuner, and (b) did not have an external HD STB connected to it, which meant that consumers were using HD sets to watch SD DVDs. So they were using a high resolution set to watch a lower resolution product. It wasn't until the proliferation of satellite and HD cable that more sets were used to actually view HD content.

Now, let's look at the situation today. We have a new generation of HD sets that, depending on viewing distance, can improve the picture quality of lower resolution images (SD DVD, or 720p or 1080i HDTV). The ability to deinterlace 1080i HDTV is certainly an advantage for these sets, which you continually ignore.

And guess what? 1080p content is now months from being released. So the content is catching up to the display. Do you think that content should have resolutions higher than a display can resolve, which would require downrezzing?

And you have yet to answer Chris's question, which is what, according to you, is the best method to view SD DVDs?

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post #384 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles
At this point "stupid" seems like the category of lesser insult. If he still won't answer my questions and address the substance of the discussion, I will have to assume he's worse than stupid: that he actually does understand what I'm saying, and that in the face of it he ignores the substance and continues to argue just for the sake of arguing and enlarging his forum-member.

I've explained things to "stupid" people before, and it's a lot easier than this is, unfortunately.
Chris,
He does understand what you are saying and at this point he is just digging in to his position. His refusal to answer your questions is enough validation that this "witness" knows that his answers will result in perjury or statements that will weaken his credibility as an "expert."

All he can do at this point is attack the person or credibility of the person asking the questions or change the topic as he will not answer questions directly. This has been demonstrated repeatedly.

So what is the correct action? Ask him no further questions or reply to any of his "opinions." Leave him alone.

"... enlarging his forum-member?" You're not actually implying that he... ;)

Rick
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post #385 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 04:03 PM
 
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Part of the immaturity keeps me out of this forum more than I would like, unfortunately. In other parts of the forum there is actual real discussion, rather than a bunch of nonsensical flaming and inflammatory posting just for the sake of being controversial.

In any case, I hope that when I do get suckered into these kinds of inane threads that the folks reading can make their own decisions and filter through the nonsense to get at the essence of the issue and thus make intelligent buying choices for their particular situation.

And part of that also extends to the fact that like it or not, Auditor does (accidentaly) make legitimate points that in some cases 1080p may be a moot issue. Hopefully that point has not been lost either, that the merits of 1080p do vary according to viewing ratio, and there are cases where it doesn't make much sense to go after 1080p for the sake of 1080p. Auditor, unfortunately, conflates those specific cases into a larger generalized diatribe which is totally unwarranted, for the same reasons that people claiming that you SHOULD universally purchase a 1080p display are also making oversimplified and incorrect statements.
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post #386 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
Other folks also have similiar situations where their viewing distance v. screen and or viewing angle will not allow them to see much of a benefit to owning a 1080p display, but yet these folks are wrongfully being encouraged to upgrade and to me that represent unmitigated consumerism.
Which is the consumer's call, ultimately. Would you endorse restriction of purchases because YOU don't get it? Some people like being future ready.

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I'm just trying to encourage my fellow AVS member to really give this 1080p thing so thought before handing the salesharks their credit cards.
You have exactly one "fellow" here.

BTW, it isn't the salesshark's decision how to spend others' $$$. People will do as their research dictates. Gone are the days of retail manipulation, except for people that are in fact dumb enough to shop at places that they really should know are leading them astray *coughbigboxcough* :D

The First Clarke Law states, 'If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible he is almost certainly right, but if he says that it is impossible he is very probably wrong.'
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post #387 of 389 Old 05-11-2006, 06:08 PM
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Auditor:

You say there is no "significant" 1080p content.

How much "significant" SED is there?

Which do you think will come to market first?

Why?

You say an industry plant teases people with the notion of better things to come, while denigrating the technology they currently own?

Doesn't that make you one?

If not, why not?

Can you prove what you say?

Where is the scientific evidence?

I agree with most of what the real experts on this thread say.

That does not include you.

Except where they say you're not stupid.

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post #388 of 389 Old 05-12-2006, 03:59 AM
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What a ridicules thread.
There is a HUGE amount of 1080p content available, and has been for years.
All film sourced 1080i is 1080p 24 frames per second.
Just apple inverse telecine and weave deinterlace to PERFECT 1080p.
Interlacing does not damage progressive video, and deinterlacing can be LOSS LESS.

As for displays, try viewing a 65†768p Plasma from 8’ and tell me you cant see the pixel structure.
1920x1080 resolution is the only way to fly for a screen of that size viewed from 8’, no matter what the resolution of the video source.
Looking at a box of dots is not my idea of fun.

Viewing a 65†screen from 8’ provides a viewing angle of 33 degrees.
The MINIMUM viewing angle recommended under the THX standards is 26 degrees, and the recommended viewing angle is 36 degrees.
A 26 degree viewing angle is like sitting in the back row of a cinema.
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post #389 of 389 Old 05-12-2006, 05:14 AM
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time to close this thread: Thank you :)
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