Don't dump your CRT RPTV! - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 11:04 AM
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Hello Mr Bob,

To show how much I totally agree with you I purchased a brand new leftover Pioneer 730hdi CRT RPTV last year while building out my space and any day now I will be setting it up for the very first time!

The unit has a 2004 build date and has been sitting in it's crate in storage since last June 2005... do you think the mirror and optics will be dirty?

Remember, I could have purchased anything I wanted at the time (as in digital) but I have always lusted after the Pioneer Elites... I am so pumped! Now I just need to build up enough cohones to purchase that Toshiba HD-DVD player and put some hours on this set so I can get and ISF calibration!


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post #32 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barth2k View Post

on the contrary, I hope somebody abandons a 9" gunned Mits in my general vicinity

Yeah, hope you're aware of it when they do.

Big chains like CC and BB and GG are carting away old CRT based sets right and left every day - they tell their customer buyers of the newer, higher priced sets that they will be glad to cart away their "old one" when they deliver the new one. I hear about this all the time in my repair service tech capacity.

Where they put the old ones and what happens to them is anybody's guess, but my guess would be that contacting them might turn up a gold mine of perfectly good CRT based HDready sets, if you play your cards right.

Unless they are crushed...




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post #33 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_M View Post

I still love my 51" Sony WS500. It probably needs some work (Convergence, cleaning, focus) but the picture looks great to me. I'm definitely in the "hold onto it until it dies camp".


Get it calibrated!

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post #34 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

The biggest advantage these digital displays have in terms of performance seems to be sheer line resolution and full 1920 lines.....as I'm told most CRT RPTV display around 1200-1300 lines.


A display can only resolve what it's sent. There are limitations on what comes in OTA, by satellite, etc.

A fully calibrated set will display all it can, but until uncompressed HD is a reality, there will always be levels of compression to have to deal with. A true 1920x1080 display will still have to synthesize whatever is NOT there in the incoming signal, to fill in the blanks.

According to Joe Kane OTA HD, which is the least compressed signal out there, still only achieves a 1400 line horizontal res.


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post #35 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by locomo View Post

OK, I'll bite. Why don't they do 1080p ?


$$$.

Same reason Panny stopped producing CRT RPTVs that would do 720p native along with 1080i native. I got the last series, the year 2000 series. I asked them at CES why they hadn't done it again, and that was the answer. Too expensive, with the prices of CRT technology having nose dived.


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post #36 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barth2k View Post

on the contrary, I hope somebody abandons a 9" gunned Mits in my general vicinity

Which of the Mits 65" sets have the 9" guns? I know a lot of the 73" did, but I know some of the very highest 65"s had them as well.

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post #37 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 11:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottie137 View Post

I know I am a newbie, but isn't part of the attraction (at least it was for me) of newer non CRT sets size? I understand the PQ argument, but I think alot of consumers are also buying so they can fit a larger TV in a smaller space....


The difference is only in the depth, which is not all that great a difference to me, compared to the difference in quality between the 2.

But Joe Sixpack outnumbers the videophile probably 20 to 1, minimum.


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post #38 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 11:18 AM
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A friend of mine wants to get rid of his year 2000 Sony 52" CRT RPTV. I have always thought that CRT RP had problems but wasn't aware of the exact specifics. I didn't want to touch his set even though he is looking for a throwaway price. I have seen his set (4:3 aspect ratio) and I am not impressed at all (even when playing HD content).

This thread makes me think I can take that set and tweak it to look better. For one thing it looks very dim even in his dark family room. And glare from his screen makes the lack of brightness worse. Can that be fixed?

Also, do the CRT RPTV's do not have any bulb that needs replacing?

Finally, are there any problems that newer sets solve? Lack of HDMI/DVI is one. But what others?
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post #39 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Baumann View Post

Hello Mr Bob,

To show how much I totally agree with you I purchased a brand new leftover Pioneer 730hdi CRT RPTV last year while building out my space and any day now I will be setting it up for the very first time!

Yeaaaeee! A man after my own heart. See what I wrote earlier about the x30 line and its 480->1080 upconversion.

Quote:
The unit has a 2004 build date and has been sitting in it's crate in storage since last June 2005... do you think the mirror and optics will be dirty?


No. Optics only get dirty from the HV inherent in CRT use. If it's not been turned on and run for awhile yet your optics are still crystal clear.

See my website for more details.


Quote:
Remember, I could have purchased anything I wanted at the time (as in digital) but I have always lusted after the Pioneer Elites... I am so pumped! Now I just need to build up enough cohones to purchase that Toshiba HD-DVD player and put some hours on this set so I can get an ISF calibration!


...Glenn


Fly me in! I love what can be done with 730's.

With its excellent upconversion, only 1080i needs to be calibrated. That saves major calibration money.


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post #40 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 11:31 AM
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I hate this thread Makes me wish i had 65xbr still.
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post #41 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrot View Post

Which of the Mits 65" sets have the 9" guns? I know a lot of the 73" did, but I know some of the very highest 65"s had them as well.

ALL 73" Mit's use 9" guns. And mylar mirrors. (weight considerations, I suppose)

I have yet to calibrate a Mit 65" with 9" guns, but can't wait. Marantz, Philips and Zenith 65's all had 9" guns, but their convergence systems stank, compared to the one in the Mits's.

The center of their pix was noticeably sharper, with more depth, but the edges could only be made marginally good.

With Mit, the edges can also be fine tuned, along with the center. Pioneer and Panasonic also have edge settings that allow for edges to be fine tuned, but neither of them use 9" guns.

The Mits convergence system is one of the best out there, and as I said I can't wait to see what kind of pic THAT combo will produce!


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post #42 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 11:37 AM
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Sony convergance and geometry from factory the best imo. Usally ruler straight and it holds.
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post #43 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 11:38 AM
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I'm in with whole love-fest for CRTs, I just bought a Hitachi 51F59 for a song. The new Hitachi line doesn't have the glare-producing protective screen, which is really nice. It sure wasn't set up well in store, so it didn't look as good as the digitals. After calibration and a few tweaks I couldn't be happier.

The digitals look better in the stores primarily due to their high light output. However, that blinding light is not a good thing in a light controlled room, unless you're immune to viewer fatigue and don't care much about black levels. Additionally, the "auto convergence" nearly all newer CRT based RPTVs can do a very respectable job on convergence.

However, I do have to take issue with the statement that CRTs can easily resolve 1080i. This is true only for those with 9" tubes. With 8" & especially 7" sets you might be displaying the 1080i signal, but you're not getting 1080 lines of resolution.

Steve
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post #44 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yelloguy View Post

A friend of mine wants to get rid of his year 2000 Sony 52" CRT RPTV. I have always thought that CRT RP had problems but wasn't aware of the exact specifics. I didn't want to touch his set even though he is looking for a throwaway price. I have seen his set (4:3 aspect ratio) and I am not impressed at all (even when playing HD content).


Doesn't surprise me. Typical of uncalibrated sets, esp. since the optics have probably never been cleaned either, contributing to a very bleary picture over the years.

Completely reversible situation. BUY IT!


Quote:
This thread makes me think I can take that set and tweak it to look better. For one thing it looks very dim even in his dark family room. And glare from his screen makes the lack of brightness worse. Can that be fixed?

All Sony glarescreens can be removed, and it improves the pic instantly and immensely. The contrast and brightness settings can be worked with in service menu mode.

Unlike other brands, Sonys are best watched with their contrast settings at 2/3-3/4 up, not at half.

Quote:
Also, do the CRT RPTV's do not have any bulb that needs replacing?

CRTs produce their own light, they never use bulbs. Which is why they can deliver the superior blacks that bulb driven devices are always struggling with.

CRTs have a life expectancy of well over 10 years, if watched under videophile conditions. Usually more like 15. That's a lot longer than any bulb will last.

Quote:
Finally, are there any problems that newer sets solve? Lack of HDMI/DVI is one. But what others?


Depth of the box.

But whatever they solve, there are other problems that crop up with them. Challenged blacks. Rainbow effect on DLP. Convergence problems on many fixed pixel triple-panel modalities. I have even seen Runcos where the convergence is a lot farther off than I would ever allow, in their triple panel DLPs. When asked, they say that's the best they will deliver, and you just have to sit a little farther back, to not see it.


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post #45 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

I hate this thread Makes me wish i had 65xbr still.


Me too.



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post #46 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Sony convergance and geometry from factory the best imo. Usally ruler straight and it holds.


You can also reduce its overscan without totally hosing your geometry and convergence, which is what happens on most brands. Correction of g and c after overscan reduction takes far less time on a Sony.


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post #47 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

A display can only resolve what it's sent. There are limitations on what comes in OTA, by satellite, etc.

A fully calibrated set will display all it can, but until uncompressed HD is a reality, there will always be levels of compression to have to deal with. A true 1920x1080 display will still have to synthesize whatever is NOT there in the incoming signal, to fill in the blanks.

According to Joe Kane OTA HD, which is the least compressed signal out there, still only achieves a 1400 line horizontal res.


Mr Bob

Bob,

I'm thinking something like Blu-ray or HD DVD which have full 1920 line resolution....where a digital display can have an advantage.

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post #48 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 12:08 PM
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Hey Bob,

I saw a couple of threads on this forum once that some CRT RPTVs use some kind of fluid.....do you know anything about this? Isn't this something I need to keep in mind with my Sony one day?

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post #49 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssj2 View Post

Additionally, the "auto convergence" nearly all newer CRT based RPTVs can do a very respectable job on convergence.

I'd beg to differ on that one. Even Vidikron told me on the phone years ago about their $50K camera-equipped ceiling pj, that their CAMERA-EQUIPPED auto-convergence system only got you 80% there. The rest had to be done by an onlocation calibrator. Which I of course did while there.

The only way to make an auto-convergence system - Magic Focus (Hit), Touch Focus (Tosh) and Flash Focus (Sony) - do any sort of efficacious job is to sit way far back from the display from then on, effective reducing the size of what you are trying to watch, immensely. It's really sloppy compared to tightly stitched manual convergence, done from about 2'-3' away from your set.

Feel free to come over to my place and see what a high-precision manually stitched convergence will look like, watched at 8' away from my 65" screen. Or go to my website and go into Screenshots and click on/blow up the CSI image and study the detail.

That level of detail is NOT available via auto-convergence!


Quote:
However, I do have to take issue with the statement that CRTs can easily resolve 1080i. This is true only for those with 9" tubes. With 8" & especially 7" sets you might be displaying the 1080i signal, but you're not getting 1080 lines of resolution.

Nothing out there presently delivers full 1920 horizontal resolution except the new HD DVD players. As I said earlier, according to Joe kane OTA, the least compressed out there, only delivers 1400. 7" guns have no problem with 1400.

It's not the size that matters here. It's the level of the technology. A CRT is a CRT. A 5" CRT can still resolve 1080i. You just can't magnify it enough, optically, for big screen use. And who's going to supply a 5" display with the extreme electronics it takes to do 1080i? Maybe the military, for special applications, but you won't find it in consumer grade stuff.


You'd still need triple gun technology, tho, because monochromatic guns are the only way to truly get the highest of res necessary for projected HD. Triple chromatic guns, like regular 19" single screen SD CRT units, have all 3 colors on them, spaced out and requiring a shadow mask to differentiate them. As such much of the potential is masked, and always has been.

Not so with monochromatic CRTs. What you see is what you get, directly and with no shadow mask in the way.


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post #50 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

The difference is only in the depth, which is not all that great a difference to me, compared to the difference in quality between the 2.

But Joe Sixpack outnumbers the videophile probably 20 to 1, minimum.


Mr Bob

difference is in height to isn't it?

are there any CRT RPTVs that don't have that huge case at the bottom?
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post #51 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookeylama View Post

difference is in height to isn't it?

are there any CRT RPTVs that don't have that huge case at the bottom?


Table models are signifcantly shorter than floor units. Mits has always made table model SD sets in the past, tho in the HDready line, I don't know...


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post #52 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 12:22 PM
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can i get a couple model numbers in the 56" range so i can research them? thanks
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post #53 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 12:47 PM
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Regarding auto-convergence vs. service menu manual convergence.....just put up a crosshatch pattern at 100 IRE and you can clearly see where auto-convergence fails...this also translates into "real world" viewing, as well.

My auto-convergence is actually disabled anyway...since my overscan has been reduced to 2-3%. However, I would always stick with manual convergence.

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post #54 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post


CRTs produce their own light, they never use bulbs. Which is why they can deliver the superior blacks that bulb driven devices are always struggling with.

CRTs have a life expectancy of well over 10 years, if watched under videophile conditions. Usually more like 15. That's a lot longer than any bulb will last.





Mr Bob

I just had BestB swap out my 53" panasonic pt53wx42 for a samsung DLP. Dont get me wrong, I REALLY like the picture on the Samsung, but the panny started getting very dim at only 4 years of use. I am a Joe-shmo user, but I always tried to keep the brightness and contrast on it no higher than mid-level because I feared burn in or wearing out the CRTs. I had the BestB replacement plan and they did not have the tubes to fix it. I must say I did love that set. Without calibration the picture was excellent, got a lot of WOW from company. Wish I could have gotten it fixed and calibrated.........
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post #55 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 01:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Hey Bob,

I saw a couple of threads on this forum once that some CRT RPTVs use some kind of fluid.....do you know anything about this? Isn't this something I need to keep in mind with my Sony one day?

They all do (all that I am aware of, I'm sure somewhere there's some oddball exception, everytime I say 'all' someone jumps in with some left-field exception!)

Projection CRTs drive the phosphors a lot harder than a direct view, and require glycol coolant fluid on the tubeface to prolong phosphor life. Air coupled CRT PJ have a flat glass plate on the tubeface that creates a sealed coolant chamber that holds glycol. Liquid Coupled CRT PJ couple the first lens element to the tubeface with coolant, eliminating the plate glass, LC coupling improves ANSI contrast and eliminates halos.
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post #56 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookeylama View Post

can i get a couple model numbers in the 56" range so i can research them? thanks

Hitachi has the 57F59 currently. I own the 57F710s (last years model) and there is the 57F715 models (consider by some to be the best). 57F59 does not have a glare screen the 710's do (you really want to have a room that can control the glare here).

Mitsubishi has a 55 that very nice (Due to Katrina I could never find one in my area) 65 I found but wife veto'd one that big

Sony had a 57 at the start of 06 I could still find just hard has heck ,no Idea now.

Never saw any Panasonic, one Toshiba and I thought the Hitachi was better so I got it.

Just a added note. Had some friends over on the 1st, each with different HD TV's From LCD, to RP LCD, on Plasma SD. All agreed mine had a better wow factor. Now if I can ever find a ISF tech in my area....sigh.
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post #57 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post


The Momitsu 880 did it all, I believe including DVI. The Samsung 841 had a hack which I can no longer find, that would allow it to also put out HD in component.
Mr Bob


http://www.videohelp.com/dvdhacks.ph...sung+DVD-HD950
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post #58 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellman10 View Post

I just had BestB swap out my 53" panasonic pt53wx42 for a samsung DLP. Dont get me wrong, I REALLY like the picture on the Samsung, but the panny started getting very dim at only 4 years of use. I am a Joe-shmo user, but I always tried to keep the brightness and contrast on it no higher than mid-level because I feared burn in or wearing out the CRTs. I had the BestB replacement plan and they did not have the tubes to fix it. I must say I did love that set. Without calibration the picture was excellent, got a lot of WOW from company. Wish I could have gotten it fixed and calibrated.........


All it probably needed was professional optics cleaning. "It's so much brighter!" is the most common comment made after my optics cleaning process.

It's really just so much more distinct, and with so much more dynamic punch. Probably nearly the same foot lamberts readings, but with the transparency restored by optics cleaning, its brights and darks are so much more dynamic up against each other now, making it LOOK like it's a lot brighter than it actually is. There's no chance for "gleam" when your optics are dirty, it's much too hazy. With them cleaned, your picture gleams again, like new.

HV ionizes the air and turns the optics into powerful dust magnets, gathering even the smallest of microscopic particulates. See my website under Nuts and
Bolts. After 4 years it DEFINITELY needed professional optics cleaning. Probably woulda saved your set, and you'd still be enjoying it.


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post #59 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 02:00 PM
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Mr. Bob, I agree manually tweaked convergence is the best. I'm surprised that how often the "auto convergence" hasn't even been done on the store display models. I'd venture a guess that what Vidikron was using years ago doesn't not approach the auto convergence in today's RPTVs. The ability to properly implement this feature is much easier/cheaper now than it was previously.

Regarding 1080, you need a 9" EM focused CRT to get the beam spot size small enough on the raster to get 1080. There are some folks in the CRT projector forum who have achieved 1080 with their fully tweaked 8" high-end projectors, but that's running the image right out to the edge of the rasters, and with full control over every aspect of image geometry and convergence.

I'm not knocking CRT here, I had an NEC XG1100 front projector with new 8" tubes and a professional set up and calibration. I doubt I'll ever own a projector with a better image. But 1080 without scan line overlap wasn't in the cards.

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post #60 of 12502 Old 07-06-2006, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssj2 View Post

Regarding 1080, you need a 9" EM focused CRT to get the beam spot size small enough on the raster to get 1080. There are some folks in the CRT projector forum who have achieved 1080 with their fully tweaked 8" high-end projectors, but that's running the image right out to the edge of the rasters, and with full control over every aspect of image geometry and convergence.

I'm not knocking CRT here, I had an NEC XG1100 front projector with new 8" tubes and a professional set up and calibration. I doubt I'll ever own a projector with a better image. But 1080 without scan line overlap wasn't in the cards.


I see well defined scanlines on my year 2000 65" Panny on both 720p and 1080i on its 7" guns, with the right picture. No overlap. I can see them at 8'.


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