Don't dump your CRT RPTV! - Page 213 - AVS Forum
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post #6361 of 12616 Old 01-25-2010, 07:24 AM
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Just getting ready to give a good ole' 57 RPCRT a face lift. Mr. (Master) Bob is performing the procedure.

CRT technology is still the defacto technology, until something commercially available comes along... CRT is it.

Stay tune for the calibration tune up update. It should be interesting and convincing that CRT technology is the one to beat.

"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."

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post #6362 of 12616 Old 01-25-2010, 07:32 AM
 
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Bob is at your place right now? What the hell? He should be on here answering questions...for free.
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post #6363 of 12616 Old 01-25-2010, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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From my laptop in Superleo's guest room in San Antonio -



Quote:
Originally Posted by NulloModo View Post


Electronics stores used to leave the remotes out next to the sets and had a couple of standard def channels you could turn them to rather than the Blu-Ray demo loop, but now every time I go to Best Buy there is no remote in sight. I have to imagine that new fixed pixel displays have gotten better with standard def upscaling, but I imagine they still aren't quite as good as CRTs.

Why on earth would they? SD is old tech, hella older than CRT RPTVs. My experience is that nobody puts much R&D into tech that's getting older and older. Component is a good example. Component on older tech, like CRT, is the best it gets, sometimes noticeably better than anything that requires and up/down/cross-format or any type of conversion at all. Case in point is my latest gen Mit CRT, whose HDMI is absolutely mulchy in comparison to component on the same set.

I sincerely doubt they are going to put continuing R&D into improving broadcast SD 480i and any upconversions thereof. Including just to 480p, which also requires excellent algorithms for a pure pic, which is where the early HDreadys really fell flat, like my year 2000 Panny. Excellent HD, but very poor 480p from 480i.

Not gonna happen, IMHO.


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post #6364 of 12616 Old 01-25-2010, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Not a bad picture, by any stretch! He's been busy! It's fun to have such a great picture to start with!

More later -


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post #6365 of 12616 Old 01-25-2010, 12:28 PM
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Just starting...

Side by side ... mine sucks!!!






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post #6366 of 12616 Old 01-25-2010, 04:36 PM
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OMG... fixing a tiny speed bump became a whole structure redo....

Looking real good, will post pictures later.

"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."

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post #6367 of 12616 Old 01-25-2010, 07:07 PM
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I'm faced with a humanitarian project, a Pioneer SD-P5181-K SD 51" RPTV that is really acting up. This particular TV was one, and still is, one of the brightest RPTV's I've ever seen - and it has the matte screen that completely kills window and sunshine glare. But it is SD and I should shove it off my porch or gut it and make it a nice equipment rack since it has the full cabinet with the wonderful flat top that you can stack 200 lbs of components on (!).

But I like to fix stuff - no, I like to see them come back to life. Almost a compulsion but not quite. This set could give someone a lot of satisfaction if I can repair it for $nil. And it would cause me to start shopping for a used RPHDTV which is my real ulterior motive.

First apologies may be in order since I'm not really sure if this the appropriate thread/forum for such a post. I know others have talked about rather detailed repairs and when replacing IC's on a PCB, that is about as hardcore as it gets so maybe I'm not too far off base. Also, being a SD set, I didn't find any explicit HD in the titles of this thread/section so maybe I'm not too far off topic I hope.

So let me get started with my

PROBLEMS:

1) First, it started as convergence jumping in and out. The first thing I did was start hitting the TV to see if it was a mechanical problem. Well, it seemed to be. Eventually, I opened the front up and probed the boards with a wooden stick. Found sensitivity in the power supply board away from the big components, near smaller ones in the front.

I'm thinking bad solder joints.

2) Decided to resolder the convergence board in the vicinity of power circuitry - not the area of the IC's. Well this got rid of the instability but the convergence was off.

3) Got into the factory mode and found that when trying to adjust, I would get point where further correction produced zero effect - the convergence voltage was clipping at some level. So I think there is a problem with supply voltage. A lot of people say the convergence chip is also a common culprit. So I set things as best I could and left things go at that.
_________________________________________________________

Some months pass.

4) While the above condition has existed, CRT output is getting weird:

focus is off
brights are still bright
lows are completely black
menus are dim and blue (color balance of lows is off)
convergence is so dim it is unsettable
setting contrast the last bit to max produces a massive increase in brightness
when graphics are overlaid on a picture, the brightness changes

5) I decided to resolder the remaining portion of the convergence board. The result is weird in that when I try to step through the convergence points, there appears to be no red step anymore. However, the graphics are so dim, it may be the red gun at that low level is has no output.
__________________________________________________________

At first I thought it was a convergence problem, either bad solder or perhaps a low voltage being supplied by power supply.

Now with the guns all out of wack, the high voltage section is now suspect.

I know that some TV's get their voltages from the flyback transformer which is really crappy and I don't know if that is the case with this TV. I did read a post from 2007 for this very model that a fellow found the flyback transformer solder joints were MASSIVELY bad. He resoldered them and got a dramatic correction and problem solved.

Any thoughts?

Usually a single problem is the cause and with all these problems, if a single cause, it should be easier to find. However, these problems have evolved over a period of a year or two so it could be multiple problems.

Bad Solder Joints is the only thing I know for a fact since resoldering the convergence board did completely eliminate the convergence jumping in and out problem.

More Resoldering, I suppose, is mandatory for any attempt at a fix. Since it was a serious problem in one PCB, it is probably systemic.

Any help would be greatly appreciated,
Thanks in advance,
Tom

PS. I do have the service manual.
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post #6368 of 12616 Old 01-26-2010, 01:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Pioneers have had cold solder joint problems for ages, long before HD. Would recommend resoldering anything in there that has a halo around its leg on the pad, and possibly just everything, if you've got the time.

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post #6369 of 12616 Old 01-26-2010, 04:09 AM - Thread Starter
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post #6370 of 12616 Old 01-26-2010, 04:17 AM
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I dumped my CRT RPTV! It was a Mits WS-65869. Gave it away free on CL. The guy who picked it up could not fit it into his pick up truck because he had a cab on it. He ended up putting the top half of the tv inside his truck cab, and put the bottom half (containing mirrors and guns) onto the top of his truck cab. Then he covered it up with a bunch of blankets I gave him. It took him over 2 hours to get the monster onto his truck. He left happy.
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post #6371 of 12616 Old 01-26-2010, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Pioneers have had cold solder joint problems for ages, long before HD. Would recommend resoldering anything in there that has a halo around its leg on the pad, and possibly just everything, if you've got the time.

b

Thanks for the advice. Resoldering is almost always worth a shot in my book. My big problem now, is that I've procrastinated so much, I can't remember if I resoldered the main power supply board since I found mechanical sensitivity in it. Those interior boards are such contortionistic pieces.

But I must say I'm really excited to hear about your observation of "a halo around its leg on the pad." I did a search and found you further discussing it at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=402397&page=7

Appears the "halo" is the fracture line which can appear white-ish.

I will say this, I have inspected memory connectors on laptop motherboards which are notorious for cracking and rendering that slot unusable. Using nice stereo microscopy, I can agree with you completely that these cracks are invisible, however, all you have to do as far as memory slots go, is just put the least amount of pressure on them with your finger/probe while watching and out of nowhere, you will see the crack open and close. To really inspect a joint, I use magnification that makes the solder glob about 25-50% of my field of view. And as expected, the max stress point are the outer most solder points. Maybe the last 3 legs will have cracks on each end of the memory slot. It is so dramatic to see that crack open, I should take a video of it and put on youtube but I don't have the time.

Thanks for the expert advice.

I'm thinking the very first thing to do is survey my voltages at the various connectors, then proceed with the resoldering. However, the more I think about it, the more I think I've already resoldered the main power supply board which if true, is bad because that means I have a problem with a component. If it is the flyback transformer, its probably game over. Maybe I'll get lucky and it will be some electrolytic caps.

Tom
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post #6372 of 12616 Old 01-26-2010, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasamiller View Post

I dumped my CRT RPTV! It was a Mits WS-65869. Gave it away free on CL. The guy who picked it up could not fit it into his pick up truck because he had a cab on it. He ended up putting the top half of the tv inside his truck cab, and put the bottom half (containing mirrors and guns) onto the top of his truck cab. Then he covered it up with a bunch of blankets I gave him. It took him over 2 hours to get the monster onto his truck. He left happy.


Well, the bottom half contains the guns and the top half contains the mirror, but who's counting?

There was a time when a new owner woulda counted his lucky stars to be able to have a fully operational big screen for such a miniscule amount of time and effort, for free. We have been spoiled by the evolution of this industry, such that now it's all flat screen. It took weight and depth to get a reasonably good big screen picture at one time, and serious $, not to mention what it took to go from there and make reasonable look incredible. Now a reasonable picture is within the grasp of almost anybody.

So is incredible, if you are still willing to go the freight.



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post #6373 of 12616 Old 01-26-2010, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6volt View Post

Thanks for the advice. Resoldering is almost always worth a shot in my book. My big problem now, is that I've procrastinated so much, I can't remember if I resoldered the main power supply board since I found mechanical sensitivity in it. Those interior boards are such contortionistic pieces.

But I must say I'm really excited to hear about your observation of "a halo around its leg on the pad." I did a search and found you further discussing it at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=402397&page=7

Appears the "halo" is the fracture line which can appear white-ish.

I will say this, I have inspected memory connectors on laptop motherboards which are notorious for cracking and rendering that slot unusable. Using nice stereo microscopy, I can agree with you completely that these cracks are invisible, however, all you have to do as far as memory slots go, is just put the least amount of pressure on them with your finger/probe while watching and out of nowhere, you will see the crack open and close. To really inspect a joint, I use magnification that makes the solder glob about 25-50% of my field of view. And as expected, the max stress point are the outer most solder points. Maybe the last 3 legs will have cracks on each end of the memory slot. It is so dramatic to see that crack open, I should take a video of it and put on youtube but I don't have the time.

Thanks for the expert advice.

I'm thinking the very first thing to do is survey my voltages at the various connectors, then proceed with the resoldering. However, the more I think about it, the more I think I've already resoldered the main power supply board which if true, is bad because that means I have a problem with a component. If it is the flyback transformer, its probably game over. Maybe I'll get lucky and it will be some electrolytic caps.

Tom

Flybacks are actually very cheap. They can go weak and hinky internally because they are always exposed to HV inside, every minute they are on. Sometimes they just start to break down and the insulation inside no longer functions properly, sometimes actually becoming conductive. Replacing that part would probably be a good idea too.

But it only primarily deals with the 30KV of HV, plus a few thousand volts sent to the focus block. Plus ouputting several voltage supplies in AC, that get turned into DC downline.

Don't know if that would explain all your sympti.



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post #6374 of 12616 Old 01-26-2010, 09:08 AM
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Sure my 1080i picture looks great but it doesn't fit.
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post #6375 of 12616 Old 01-26-2010, 09:14 AM
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Some more shots of after calibration ... Went to bed, got up and found out Bob has been working all night!!!

Some shots from this morning.






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post #6376 of 12616 Old 01-26-2010, 09:16 AM
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BARAKA reference material.








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post #6377 of 12616 Old 01-26-2010, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Flybacks are actually very cheap. They can go weak and hinky internally because they are always exposed to HV inside, every minute they are on. Sometimes they just start to break down and the insulation inside no longer functions properly, sometimes actually becoming conductive. Replacing that part would probably be a good idea too.

But it only primarily deals with the 30KV of HV, plus a few thousand volts sent to the focus block. Plus ouputting several voltage supplies in AC, that get turned into DC downline.

Don't know if that would explain all your sympti.



b

I was thinking flyback because lots of sets use flybacks for, like you said, several AC voltages. And it sounds like I definitely have some low voltage problems and probably high voltage as well. The flyback would sure be a candidate if it has low V coming out of it too.

I did find the Tripler but I didn't locate the flyback yet. Looking at the power supply schematic it is depressing not to see some big power transformer with all the taps! Of course, if that transformer fails, it is usually Good Night Irene since they are all one-of-a-kind designs. (Of course, you could rig something close since you are only looking for a particular AC voltage. But that has nothing to do with ...)

I need to suck it up and crawl in there and get some voltages. (Actually, it would be nice to have the TV elevated bench high. Ha Ha Ha Dream on...)
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post #6378 of 12616 Old 01-26-2010, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Flybacks are actually very cheap. They can go weak and hinky internally because they are always exposed to HV inside, every minute they are on. Sometimes they just start to break down and the insulation inside no longer functions properly, sometimes actually becoming conductive. Replacing that part would probably be a good idea too.

But it only primarily deals with the 30KV of HV, plus a few thousand volts sent to the focus block. Plus ouputting several voltage supplies in AC, that get turned into DC downline.

Don't know if that would explain all your symptions.



b

Found the flyback in the schematic. It has the obvious High Voltage taps, but it also has the +-25v rails which power the convergence board and also the High Tension (+-HT) Regulator.

Sounds like all the trouble areas converge there.

On the parts list and schematic it is an ATK1064 while on the component/trace view of schematic it is an ATK1063.

Did a few internet searches and found prices around $100 for it. Actually, methodically cruising eBay might be a good tactic too.

That's all for now,
Tom
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post #6379 of 12616 Old 01-26-2010, 10:29 PM
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Mr Bob -

Wow, very nice work, easy to see the improvement even in the still shots. It looks like the after shots are more zoomed in than the before shots though, you can see where there are areas of picture present in the 'before' that aren't in the 'after', is there a reason for that?

Other than that, are you going to be in South Florida anytime soon?
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post #6380 of 12616 Old 01-26-2010, 11:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Didn't have any real intention of having them show up as different sizes, it just seemed to happen that way. My zoom is not real exact...

As for coming to FLA, send me a plane ticket and I'll be there.


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post #6381 of 12616 Old 01-27-2010, 05:46 AM
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Hey guys,

I have a Sony 65WV700. I have had this since 2003 and it has been a great TV.

Recently though, it has developed these parallel bowing horizontal lines that are visible only when the screen is black, or dark. As with no video input, or a very dark scene.

I looked in the CRT lenses and the lines can be seen in each. Close viewing of the screen shows they are the combo of red, green and blue, producing a faint white.

The closeness and bowing of the lines changes as I change the mode. Where HDTV full screen has only slight bowing and the parallel lines close together. Zoom mode also shows two extremely bowed and brighter lines on top and bottom. These bow in, kinda like two half moons, top and bottom. This is the only mode that shows these lines bowing inward top and bottom. In the other modes, the only lines are side by side, bowing upward.

I'm wondering if anyone knows what this could be? If it would be something easy to fix?

Any info would be great...Thanks!
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post #6382 of 12616 Old 01-27-2010, 08:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Is your pic otherwise coherent, or does it bow the same way?

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post #6383 of 12616 Old 01-27-2010, 09:06 AM
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Thanks,

The picture geometry is fine, the lines are just there in the background and only are visible when the screen is dark. Picture quality is also fine. It is the Zoom mode that has the more prominent lines top and bottom, even cuts through normally lighted scenes...but never use that mode anyway.

P.S. I did lose geometry over a year ago. I had ex warranty thankfully and the tech replaced the units that hold that together. Can't remember what they are called, but have big heat sinks as I recall.

In a way, the lines almost look like those generated for doing adjustments in the service menu. But, they are not exactly like any convergence patterns I have done when I was in the service menu years ago.
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post #6384 of 12616 Old 01-27-2010, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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If the lines are bowed and parallel and arc'ing slightly up and then down again as you go from left to right, they are retrace lines, caused by your screen trimpots being set too high.

If so it needs a CRT biasing realignment, which may affect your grayscale. Not too uncommon, after a number of years. The Pioneer Elite and non-Elite HDreadys do just the opposite, after a number of years, resulting in a dimmer pic than should be there.

Both regain all lost coherence in this part of a cal by the realignment of the Screen trimpots.


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post #6385 of 12616 Old 01-28-2010, 05:58 AM
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Have a Sony KDP-65XBR2. Has a convergence problem. The shop changed the convergence board, but that didn't fix the problem. Pushing the flash focus will align the colors, but after a little bit, the colors drift. The other inputs convergence are off, and I have to flash focus them with the same result. All the guns were changed over the years. Any suggestions? Cold joints, bad convergence board IC's, power board? Thanks.
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post #6386 of 12616 Old 01-28-2010, 05:59 AM
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I made a decision. I bought a plasma tv Samsung PN63B590 to replace my Hitachi 57SWX20B rptv. I just have to have the latest innovations e.g. hdmi connections, 1080p, 24 fps, etc. I am keeping the Hitachi and put it upstairs. It will be an effort to move since the beast is 265 lbs heavy.

So I am heading to the plasma forum. Bye guys.

63" plasma, some amps, speakers, dvds, etc
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post #6387 of 12616 Old 01-28-2010, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoDLion View Post

I made a decision. I bought a plasma tv Samsung PN63B590 to replace my Hitachi 57SWX20B rptv. I just have to have the latest innovations e.g. hdmi connections, 1080p, 24 fps, etc. I am keeping the Hitachi and put it upstairs. It will be an effort to move since the beast is 265 lbs heavy.

So I am heading to the plasma forum. Bye guys.

Bye bye.

I LOVE MOVIES!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

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post #6388 of 12616 Old 01-28-2010, 02:26 PM
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I just ordered a new Samsung PN50B650 to replace my Sony KP-46WT510 which is only six years old. But after reading some of this thread, I'm wondering if the Sony might be worth fixing.

It worked perfectly until about a month ago. When I turned it on, the RGB images were separated by a good three inches and the geometry was bowed inward from all four sides for each of the color guns. Powered off, back on and it was fine for another week. The the same thing again followed by another week OK, now permanently screwed.

Anybody familiar with this syndrome?
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post #6389 of 12616 Old 01-29-2010, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bfadams View Post

Have a Sony KDP-65XBR2. Has a convergence problem. The shop changed the convergence board, but that didn't fix the problem. Pushing the flash focus will align the colors, but after a little bit, the colors drift. The other inputs convergence are off, and I have to flash focus them with the same result. All the guns were changed over the years. Any suggestions? Cold joints, bad convergence board IC's, power board? Thanks.

The replacement board must have had aged ICs. Never heard of this one before. Unused ICs should not age.

But what you are describing is what I hear happens after years of faithful service, where the ICs simply start getting imprecise. Perhaps that;s because they can't handle the highest of freqs anymore, really DK. But the remedy is replacing those ICs, that usually does the trick.

I would try that. It's a lot less expensive than replacing the board, and will require a lot less re-setup than that of any replaced conv bd.

Could also be that those who set up the new board don't know too much about how to keep the stress down on setting it up. If so you really need a seasoned CRT tech in there to do it right. I am available if you want to send me a plane ticket. Very few calibrators who were ever capable of doing that are still doing it. I am one of the few left, and you'll probably have to fly whoever you use in anyway.

Contact me off board if you're interested, no pms please. Whoever wants to contact me should do it thru regular channels and not by pm. My pm box here is about to overflow and needs to not be used for this purpose -


b

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post #6390 of 12616 Old 01-29-2010, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaribaldiSony View Post

I just ordered a new Samsung PN50B650 to replace my Sony KP-46WT510 which is only six years old. But after reading some of this thread, I'm wondering if the Sony might be worth fixing.

It worked perfectly until about a month ago. When I turned it on, the RGB images were separated by a good three inches and the geometry was bowed inward from all four sides for each of the color guns. Powered off, back on and it was fine for another week. The the same thing again followed by another week OK, now permanently screwed.

Anybody familiar with this syndrome?

Your convergence ICs. Bowing severly and looking fisheyed on all 3 colors is how the set looks without any conv conrrection at all, which is what happens when one or both fuses pop that power up that circuit.

Cold solder joints explain what originally happened where it came back for you, which does not involve the fuses, and if you had resoldered them at that time you woulda saved your ICs. Now they have most likely been fried by being run while exceeding design parameters for an extended period.

Check the fuses on that board as well. One or both - there are both positive and negative voltage rails in there - may have popped. On that model they may also have been using IC protectors rather than fuses. It's OK to replace either with regular glass fast-blow fuses. NEVER replace a fast blow fuse with a slo-blow fuse. They design these things that way for a reason, don't defeat that design parameter.

If so and that's really all that's wrong, you may still get away with resoldering the legs of the ICs and saving them.


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