Don't dump your CRT RPTV! - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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Old 12-28-2006, 04:41 PM
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Also do you think AVIA will help at all.
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Old 12-28-2006, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chief Ediri View Post

Mr. Bob, do you know anything I can do by myself to help the picture quality on my RCA P61937? The TV has convergence issues and some overscan all over the screen. Any help will be greatly apperciated.


Yes. Tons of stuff. I am available for paid phone consultation. This info's worth its weight in gold. If it had any physical weight, that is... It does have etherical weight, all over the world, and has helped uncounted scores of DIYers over the years...


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Old 12-28-2006, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chief Ediri View Post

Also do you think AVIA will help at all.


Yes

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Old 12-28-2006, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Yes

So it would help with the overscan issues on my screen?
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Old 12-28-2006, 07:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Single-chip anything is single lens, rather than the triple-lens system, like CRTs are. Even triple-chip systems are single lens - actually all fixed pixel is single lens, and with any single lens system, there is the risk of lens aberration, for whatever reason.

We tend to take for granted some of the elaborate tech involved in CRT triple gun tech, like 3 lenses instead of 1, 3 relatively huge CRTs instead of 1 compact light engine, single layer viewscreen rather than double/fresnel/lenticular combo, like for CRT. For economy's sake, affordable DLP is always single chip with color wheel, like in the old days of primitive TV. Triple-chip DLP is VERY much more expensive than single-chip.

Triple-gun CRT is very elaborate compared to a lot of the fixed pixel tech out there, even if the fixed pixel tech, some having more than a million mirrors on a single chip, is more advanced.


We never see this kind of lens aberration on long-throw FP ceiling pjs, with screen across the room from the pj. Increasing that throw distance on the compact RPs was the main secret, I now see very little of that kind of thing anymore.


On triple-chip fixed pixel displays, I have seen some doozies, as far as panel convergence alignment goes. I saw a JVC LCOS RPTV where the red/green alignment was so off that it leapt out at me from 20' away. I have seen Runco FP pjs misaligned at CES, which was quite surprising, esp. since when I asked about it, being a Runco tech, they told me that that was the best they were going to be producing them. I actually think it would have failed the half-pixel test, mentioned by Glen. I would be totally distracted by any fixed pixel set more than half a pixel off, myself.

To perhaps clarify, lens aberration is a concern with all lenses, and CRTs are not immune to this problem by any means. However, because you have individual guns that you can converge without difficulty and without problem, lens aberrations become a moot point. Also, because each lens is dedicated to a narrower spectrum of wavelengths, any natural aberrations become insignificant because the spectra going through is relatively narrow.

As opposed to a single or perfectly-aligned three-chip digital display, you have a broader spectrum going through one lens, so there is always going to be some degree of difficulty in keeping the colors from fringing out through the lens. If you were doing the same thing with a CRT (there were some old Electrohomes that shot through a single lens) you could very easily account for the lens aberrations with convergence adjustments, so it is not a concern. But with digitals, unless you have physical chip adjusments, you may have some problems. Some displays have whole panel shifters (moving the image by a pixel on the display panel, not the panel itsel) but this can only move the image within half a pixel of converged, and is uniform across the screen so it can't help with lens problems or localized problems.
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Old 12-28-2006, 07:50 PM
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I have a 5 year old 55" Mits Diamond calibrated by Craig. (I still laugh thinking about watching him on the couch with his binoculars!) Today I bought a Samsung 5688 DLP because the Mits has only one HD input and I need three after Christmas. Progress.... sometimes can be tough. Can any of the gurus post some links for setting up my new Samsung without me having to read 12.000+ posts?

Thanks and Happy New Year!!!
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Old 12-28-2006, 09:37 PM
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Also Mr Bob, what do you mean by physical and etherical weight?
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Old 12-29-2006, 03:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Ediri View Post

So it would help with the overscan issues on my screen?


AVIA is the best DVD for correcting overscan. VE is not accurate, it is mismeasured and off in its linearities. DVE I don't know, I don't use it because it is hell to navigate.

HD requires completely different techniques from DVD for reducing overscan.


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Old 12-29-2006, 03:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCraw View Post

I have a 5 year old 55" Mits Diamond calibrated by Craig. (I still laugh thinking about watching him on the couch with his binoculars!) Today I bought a Samsung 5688 DLP because the Mits has only one HD input and I need three after Christmas. Progress.... sometimes can be tough. Can any of the gurus post some links for setting up my new Samsung without me having to read 12.000+ posts?

Thanks and Happy New Year!!!


You are missing a great TV, in not restoring your Craig Miller calibrated CRT based set.

Of course so could he, if he hadn't retired.

I could restore it to exactly what it looked like when he got thru with it, even 5 years later. I would then be willing to put it up against the TV you just bought, and it would stand proud and tall beside it, and probably look better than your new one does.

You were willing to wait in line to get it calibrated by a master. Why are you throwing that away now?


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Old 12-29-2006, 10:47 AM
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How do I find out if a Mitsubishi model 60607 is capable of receiving High Definition signals??
Mits>circa 1998

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Old 12-29-2006, 10:50 AM
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Hey guys,
Sorry for the double post.
When looking at the rear connections I have an input for "component".
Will this pass HD???
Thanks,

Silverdou
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Old 12-29-2006, 10:53 AM
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silverdou -- yes...component will pass an HD signal.
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Old 12-29-2006, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverdou View Post

How do I find out if a Mitsubishi model 60607 is capable of receiving High Definition signals??
Mits>circa 1998


If it will receive 480p without freaking out and doing double-imaging, it will receive HD signals. If it's a 480i-only unit, the scanlines will go to 240 res if you let your eyes slowly follow your hand as you slowly wave it from up to down or down to up in front of the screen. As such the space between the hor scanlines doubles, and the black part - the blanked out part - becomes twice as tall/thick on the hor lines.

It will also cut in half credits that are going up the screen at just the right speed, if it is 480i-only.

Mits's also say "1080i" on the front if they pick up HD.


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Old 12-29-2006, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverdou View Post

How do I find out if a Mitsubishi model 60607 is capable of receiving High Definition signals??
Mits>circa 1998


Read this:

http://www.pitt.edu/~ciddeweb/itv/EQ...itsubish60.htm


It's not a hi def set.

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Old 12-29-2006, 10:56 AM
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bob -- i've been enjoying your comments.

i have a pioneer 630hd that i've had isf calibrated twice in the time i've owned it (and had the infamous "red line" problem fixed). and i'll have it calibrated every two years. it has the most wonderful picture!

i also have a samsung dlp, which also has a very good picture...but it's in the family room where there is a high level of ambient light, so it's an appropriate spot for it. the pioneer is in a separate media room, so we can control the light. it's perfect there.
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Old 12-29-2006, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverdou View Post

Hey guys,
Sorry for the double post.
When looking at the rear connections I have an input for "component".
Will this pass HD???
Thanks,


Component will indeed pass HD, but will also pass anything lower res than that, like 480i. Many SD sets came equipped with component just before the advent of HD.


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Old 12-29-2006, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidwb View Post

bob -- i've been enjoying your comments.

i have a pioneer 530hd that i've had isf calibrated twice in the time i've owned it (and had the infamous "red line" problem fixed). and i'll have it calibrated every two years. it has the most wonderful picture!


I hope you have treated your optics to professional grade cleaning, down to the CRT coolant covers whenever necessary, at least a couple of times in these years since you bought it. Optics cleaning is the one thing you MUST NOT leave out! On ALL CRT RPTVs, not just HDreadys. And it needs to be a WET method, NOT a dry one. After this many years, the glop is matted on there, and WET is what is required. If this has not been done and you want to see how dirty your optics are, take a flashlight in there behind the screen and shine it directly onto your lenses from the side at a very steep angle while you look at it from the front, also at a very steep angle.

Then do the same thing with the mirror, touching it ever so lightly with the back of a finger knuckle to see what's under the smokiness you will see. The brighter the light the better - one of these super-bright multiple LED flashlights is best, even a small one.

I also hope the calibrator you used did the all-important image STRUCTURE work on your set, and not just the typical ISF cal, which does NOT include optics cleaning, focusing, geometry or convergence. These are absolutely essential to a CRT RPTV calibration, plus overscan reduction if you are really serious about seeing all that's promised on your set. The typical ISF cal is fine for a fixed pixel, but it does not teach anything about the all-important image STRUCTURE work needed in CRT technology.

Very few ISF calibrators know anything about either of these things. It takes a freelance calibrator who has ISF as his very valid sideline but still only part of his cal, to get it ALL done on CRT RPTVs.


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Old 12-29-2006, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverdou View Post

How do I find out if a Mitsubishi model 60607 is capable of receiving High Definition signals??
Mits>circa 1998

Sorry, but the VS-60607 (VZ8 Chassis) was designed to only accept 480i component. It is labled as a DVD input, not DTV.

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Old 12-29-2006, 11:59 AM
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I was recently directed to the AVS forums, found this thread, and have so far read 10 pages of it. There is so much good stuff I had to chime in with a "thanks!."

My background is in imaging, first in motion pictures (way back in the late `60s), then in the development of specialized imaging techniques for science and medicine; most recently as a digital imaging specialist connected to a large N.E. university.

To me the image and the story it tells has always been the main thing. Technology's greatest appeal has been its growing ability to get out of the way of the image makers. Not to say that I don't love the stuff itself, I do. And the time and energy spend calibrating my system is a joy to me, not a burden.

For years I collected films on Laserdiscs, then, naturally, on DVDs.

My first 'good' AV system was based around a 1st generation Mitsubishi 35 inch direct view monitor, then a 65 RP system, and most recently a Pioneer Elite 710 that I picked up used for a cool $1000. What a bargain!

I've had it for a couple of months and have been spending my winter holiday getting it (and the connected audio system) 'just right' using both the Avia and Digital Video Essentials discs.

Both discs were helpful, but the results of the Avia left the color a bit too rich, the DVI follow up left things pretty close to perfection to my trained and experienced eyes. Well mastered DVDs played on a Denon 1910 via component video now looks very filmlike.

I'm disappointed to learn that the Denon's upscaling isn't usable. (My first posting to the forum was an inquiry - so far unanswered - on getting around that fact.)

I'll keep on reading thru the thread. I'm learning so, so much.

Mr. Bob - I sure wish you or somebody like you was 'round here in New Hampshire. Your generosity in sharing from your knowledge and experience enriches us all.

A hearty thanks to everyone!

-don
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Old 12-29-2006, 01:01 PM
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My dilemna is that I've already taken the plunge and bought a new Mitsubishi WD-73732 73" DLP to replace my CRT-based Toshiba 65" TW65H80 that I bought back in 2000, but now can't find anyone willing to take the Toshiba 65H80 set off my hands. I bought the new Mitsubishi the first week in December. Deciding to replace the Toshiba was not an easy decision. The Toshiba set served me well these past several years. I had it ISF calibrated and cleaned in 2005, so the picture is still as good as ever. But I've recently built an HTPC, have an Xbox 360, Toshiba HD-A1 and just bought a Sony PS3 for its Blu-ray capabilities, so I needed a new RPTV with HDMI inputs and a PC input for the HTPC. The new Mitsubishi fit the bill, and I got a great deal on it at Frys Electronics. I'm sure I'll love the set even more once I've broken it in and have it calibrated. But now I can't get rid of the Toshiba. It's been taking up valuable space in my living room the past three weeks. I thought I'd be able to sell it through Craigslist. I've been reposting the ad every week, but no takers. I've had a few phone calls asking about it, but no one has bothered to come out to see it. I've even lowered my price a few hundred from what I was originally asking, and still no interest. I'm sure it has to do with the age of the set and the fact that it lacks many of the features of current RPTV's like HDMI, 1080p and it can't do 720p. And it takes up more room than DLP's, plasma and LCD. But it still has a great picture, so I'm surprised no one would be interested in obtaining in 65" HD-capable set at a cheap price. Is anyone else also having trouble selling their old CRT RPTV?
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Old 12-29-2006, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixCoyote View Post

My dilemna is that I've already taken the plunge and bought a new Mitsubishi WD-73732 73" DLP to replace my CRT-based Toshiba 65" TW65H80 that I bought back in 2000, but now can't find anyone willing to take the Toshiba 65H80 set off my hands. I bought the new Mitsubishi the first week in December. Deciding to replace the Toshiba was not an easy decision. The Toshiba set served me well these past several years. I had it ISF calibrated and cleaned in 2005, so the picture is still as good as ever. But I've recently built an HTPC, have an Xbox 360, Toshiba HD-A1 and just bought a Sony PS3 for its Blu-ray capabilities, so I needed a new RPTV with HDMI inputs and a PC input for the HTPC. The new Mitsubishi fit the bill, and I got a great deal on it at Frys Electronics. I'm sure I'll love the set even more once I've broken it in and have it calibrated. But now I can't get rid of the Toshiba. It's been taking up valuable space in my living room the past three weeks. I thought I'd be able to sell it through Craigslist. I've been reposting the ad every week, but no takers. I've had a few phone calls asking about it, but no one has bothered to come out to see it. I've even lowered my price a few hundred from what I was originally asking, and still no interest. I'm sure it has to do with the age of the set and the fact that it lacks many of the features of current RPTV's like HDMI, 1080p and it can't do 720p. And it takes up more room than DLP's, plasma and LCD. But it still has a great picture, so I'm surprised no one would be interested in obtaining in 65" HD-capable set at a cheap price. Is anyone else also having trouble selling their old CRT RPTV?


Well, there's always ebay...

I have run this thread both here and at the SPot. If there's anybody who will be wanting to honor CRT like I do, they will be somebody who is reading this thread!

Hopefully somebody reading this thread will make you an offer you can't refuse. Put your phone number up here, or some kind of contact info, and let's hope somebody out there sees this.



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Old 12-30-2006, 08:09 AM
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Ebay doesn't seem like a good option for selling used RPTV's of this size. I've browsed the auctions for other used 65" RPTV's. Most auctions never get bid on and end up having to be relisted. At least with Craigslist it's free to place ads and relist. Shipping out a tv of this size is definitely out of the question, so it would have to a local pickup only if I did put an auction on Ebay. I'll just have to keep refreshing my ad on Craigslist and hope that someone finally shows interest. If anyone out there is in the Phoenix area and interested in a used Toshiba TW65H80, please PM me or email at phoenixcoyote@yahoo.com Anyone interested is most welcome to come over and inspect the tv.
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Old 12-30-2006, 09:20 AM
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PhoenixCoyote,

Be sure to list it as multiple sites including Home Theater Forum, AVS, Videogon, etc.

I sold my old CRT RPTV on eBay for local pick-up fairly quickly.

You might just have to accept a lower price to get it sold.

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Old 12-30-2006, 09:23 AM
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My year-2000 Philips 64PH9905 9"-gun RPTV was cleaned last summer. Remarkably, after 6 years of use the mirror and lenses weren't too bad. Contrast improved slightly after wet-cleaning (external optics only). Suspect the placement of the optics, sort of isolated from the main RPTV cavity, helps keeps the dust away. For limited access, there's a small rear panel, but the entire rear section must be removed for mirror/lens access. Also adjusted the focus pot and shifted the three lenses slightly using HDNet's DVRed 1080i resolution wedges for reference. But the pot/lens adjustment range was so narrow that images weren't improved. Was actually tinkering in part to see if the scan lines for both 480i/p and 1080i modes could be made visible again. They disappeared after a few years of set operation, although test patterns and video images still appear very sharp. Not sure why they're no longer visible--or whether restoring scan lines, visible earlier only at about 2', would aid image clarity. My service CDROM outlines a sequence for adjusting beam-spot shape, but don't know if that's the cause or not.

Would appreciate any suggestions for curing a negative result from cleaning/tweaking. After the first rear-panel removal, one TV mode no longer works: Pushing the remote button for the built-in HDTV tuner produced a light-red color over the entire screen, and no tuning was possible. Not a disaster since I'm using cable mostly. But whatever happened also prevents entering the 9905's diagnostic mode, needed for the ~64-point convergence adjustment. The coarser user convergence adjustment still works okay.

The tuners are in a sealed, fan-cooled metal box just behind the rear cover. Removing the cover a 2nd time to check for bumped/broken wiring, then replacing it last summer, made the reddish screen go away but still no HD-tuner operation or diagnostics mode.

Checking again just now to confirm the NTSC tuner works okay (it does), I noticed pressing the HD "ATSC" remote control button for the built-in tuner now causes flashing red and white horizontal lines on a dark background. Normal "ATSC" lettering appears on screen, then fades out normally, but normal tuning to the last OTA channel tuned no longer takes place. If the HD RF-antenna F-connector got banged and shorted during rear cover maneuvering, might that be the problem?

I've got meters, a scope, and schematic for troubleshooting, but have found it's sometimes better to use the if-not-completely-broke rule to minimize further problems. The RPTV is still delivering remarkably good 1080i or 480p from cable YPbPr/S-video only. But the top most portion of the screen (~1/10th) has some misconvergence that'll need 64-point service convergence to cure. (Slight over adjustment of the topmost user convergence line, which is about 3/4 from the bottom, helps somewhat but doesn't eliminate the top misconvergence.) Ideas for a fix anyone? -- John
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Old 12-30-2006, 12:38 PM
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I'm giving mine away (Mits WT-46809 circa 2001) to a friend who could not otherwise afford an HD set. I could not get much for it anyway as it has sidebar burn-in. It served me faithfully for 5 years but now it's time for the new 65" DLP which is on the way.
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Old 12-30-2006, 02:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason View Post

My year-2000 Philips 64PH9905 9"-gun RPTV was cleaned last summer. Remarkably, after 6 years of use the mirror and lenses weren't too bad. Contrast improved slightly after wet-cleaning (external optics only). Suspect the placement of the optics, sort of isolated from the main RPTV cavity, helps keeps the dust away. For limited access, there's a small rear panel, but the entire rear section must be removed for mirror/lens access. Also adjusted the focus pot and shifted the three lenses slightly using HDNet's DVRed 1080i resolution wedges for reference. But the pot/lens adjustment range was so narrow that images weren't improved. Was actually tinkering in part to see if the scan lines for both 480i/p and 1080i modes could be made visible again. They disappeared after a few years of set operation, although test patterns and video images still appear very sharp. Not sure why they're no longer visible--or whether restoring scan lines, visible earlier only at about 2', would aid image clarity. My service CDROM outlines a sequence for adjusting beam-spot shape, but don't know if that's the cause or not.

Would appreciate any suggestions for curing a negative result from cleaning/tweaking. After the first rear-panel removal, one TV mode no longer works: Pushing the remote button for the built-in HDTV tuner produced a light-red color over the entire screen, and no tuning was possible. Not a disaster since I'm using cable mostly. But whatever happened also prevents entering the 9905's diagnostic mode, needed for the ~64-point convergence adjustment. The coarser user convergence adjustment still works okay.

The tuners are in a sealed, fan-cooled metal box just behind the rear cover. Removing the cover a 2nd time to check for bumped/broken wiring, then replacing it last summer, made the reddish screen go away but still no HD-tuner operation or diagnostics mode.

Checking again just now to confirm the NTSC tuner works okay (it does), I noticed pressing the HD "ATSC" remote control button for the built-in tuner now causes flashing red and white horizontal lines on a dark background. Normal "ATSC" lettering appears on screen, then fades out normally, but normal tuning to the last OTA channel tuned no longer takes place. If the HD RF-antenna F-connector got banged and shorted during rear cover maneuvering, might that be the problem?

I've got meters, a scope, and schematic for troubleshooting, but have found it's sometimes better to use the if-not-completely-broke rule to minimize further problems. The RPTV is still delivering remarkably good 1080i or 480p from cable YPbPr/S-video only. But the top most portion of the screen (~1/10th) has some misconvergence that'll need 64-point service convergence to cure. (Slight over adjustment of the topmost user convergence line, which is about 3/4 from the bottom, helps somewhat but doesn't eliminate the top misconvergence.) Ideas for a fix anyone? -- John

Wish I could help, but have calibrated very few Philips, and have repaired even fewer, if any at all, it's been so long.

Let this be a warning to any who are dead set on getting into their sets to do it themselves come hell or high water - even if they aren't real confident they can pull it off - just to avoid paying a professional to do their calibration. This guy sounds really adept at doing such things, and even he took it in the shorts on this one.

Whenever we calibrators get in there, we know SOMETHING could go wrong, and we take that chance anyway, knowing that we may have to come out of pocket if anything DOES go wrong, on our watch. If you are planning to do the same thing, be aware that this kind of thing can happen to ANYONE.



Sorry, you may have to call in a repair tech on this one.


Mr Bob

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Old 12-30-2006, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAS37 View Post

I'm giving mine away (Mits WT-46809 circa 2001) to a friend who could not otherwise afford an HD set. I could not get much for it anyway as it has sidebar burn-in. It served me faithfully for 5 years but now it's time for the new 65" DLP which is on the way.

Well, at least it is the smallest Mit HDready RPTV, not the biggest. Would have been a real crime to have the 73" get screenburned and have to let it go.

Of course NOBODY needs to let go of a 73" Mit OR a 65" Mit. Either one can be regunned if necessary. I would dearly love to save a bunch of 73" and 65" CRT RPTVs out there via regunning them, which allows calibrating them from the ground up, which is just a delicious process for me.

I am confident that ALL CRT RPTVs can be regunned whenever necessary. Video Display Corp. has CRTs up the ying-yang, for all different types and sizes of RPTV. Mit sold them thousands of theirs years ago, just to make space in their warehouses, and recommends them whenever anyone needs a Mit CRT that Mit no longer stocks.


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Old 12-30-2006, 06:35 PM
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Mr. Bob, here are 2 pictures of the problem I have with convergence, one of the pics is blurry though:

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/9797/sunp0004df1.jpg
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6988/sunp0005mw8.jpg
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Old 12-31-2006, 01:21 AM
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Mr Bob, here is another pic of my problem with the RCA P61937:
http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?i...unp0006rb8.jpg
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Old 12-31-2006, 01:27 AM
 
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your photos dont work for me
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