Don't dump your CRT RPTV! - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 02:15 PM
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Mr. Bob, I believe you're seeing overlap. Below is a quote from Guy Kuo when asked why 8" projectors cannot fully resolve 1080. Here's the link in the forum archives: http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/s...ne+and+overlap

"The 8 inch EMF CRT's will certainly give a sharper image with HD than you are used to seeing on your 7 inch machine. This is true even though they cannot fully resolve 1080i. An 8 inch EMF CRT will focus noticably tighter and deliver more light than your present machine. The 9 inch machines are yet another level better in focus. I'd describe it this way. The best focus you'll achieve on an 8 inch CRT after a lot of careful tweaking can be exceeded with a 9 inch machine using ridiculously trivial effort. The good thing the 8 inch machines have going for them is their smaller size, mass, and cost. They are good upper-middle of the road machines."

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Video Test Design - Ovation Multimedia / Home of OpticONE Colorimeter, AVIA and Avia PRO

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post #62 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 02:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

I see well defined scanlines on my year 2000 65" Panny on both 720p and 1080i on its 7" guns, with the right picture. No overlap. I can see them at 8'.


Mr Bob

Yes, although that is 1080i. 1080i should resolve interlaced scanlines on 8 or even 7 inch machines pretty easily. 1080p is a different matter entirely. One can certainly run 1080p on these machines, but I would not generally recommend it, but I certainly encourage folks to experiment and find what works best in their situation. Generally speaking, 720p(or a bit higher) is a good sweetspot for an 8in EM Front Projection machine when properly setup. 960p or 1080p are good general choices for 9 inch machines, again when properly setup. But since we're in the RPTV forum at the moment, you'll be looking at 1080i resolution capability limits, so I would say that a well setup RPTV, even a 7incher, should be able to show some scanlines, if up close depending, on 1080i stuff, but not to an objectionable degree.

1080i on a 9inch FP machine would be objectionable to many, IMO, you'd want to run higher than that.
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post #63 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 02:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssj2 View Post

Mr. Bob, I believe you're seeing overlap. Below is a quote from Guy Kuo when asked why 8" projectors cannot fully resolve 1080. Here's the link in the forum archives: http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/s...ne+and+overlap

"The 8 inch EMF CRT's will certainly give a sharper image with HD than you are used to seeing on your 7 inch machine. This is true even though they cannot fully resolve 1080i. An 8 inch EMF CRT will focus noticably tighter and deliver more light than your present machine. The 9 inch machines are yet another level better in focus. I'd describe it this way. The best focus you'll achieve on an 8 inch CRT after a lot of careful tweaking can be exceeded with a 9 inch machine using ridiculously trivial effort. The good thing the 8 inch machines have going for them is their smaller size, mass, and cost. They are good upper-middle of the road machines."

Guy Kuo
Director - Imaging Science Foundation Research Lab
Video Test Design - Ovation Multimedia / Home of OpticONE Colorimeter, AVIA and Avia PRO

Yes, but again, Bob was referring to 1080i(and presumably at video refresh rates of consumer displays, running a lot higher would minimize scanline visibility with interlaced rates), not 1080p.

I have argued in the past that proper #technical# resolving of 1080i requires the ability to resolve 1080p, however, there are a lot of subjective reasons why running 1080i on a machine that can't, technically speaking, correctly resolve 1080 content can be a good choice.

Also, I do believe Mr Bob is quite intimately familiar with these limitations already
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post #64 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 02:44 PM
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I jumped into CRT RP just last June, with a 47" Panasonic. The picture is very sharp, with great blacks and colors. Being a newer model, it even has a HDMI input. The 7" guns are very sharp at this size. It fit my space perfectly, and as I only sit 8' from it the smallish size works pretty well.

I should also note that it rolls very easily, so it quite easy to move when needed. Much easier than a DLP sitting on a stand would be.

The picture is so much nicer than the $1500-$2200 42"-50" LCD RP sets I've seen (and I've seen a lot of them). In the end I couldn't see paying hundreds of dollars more for an inferior picture.
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post #65 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 02:48 PM
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My 65-inch Toshiba was delivered on September 11, 2002, and has been going strong ever since. I've had Tech guys who install projectors say my set kicked the crap out most projectors. In the past year the layout of my movie room has allowed me to move the set ever closer, giving me more of a "thearical" experience.

I'd love a calibration, but I live in Dead Center PA.
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post #66 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 02:50 PM
 
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Always start with a basic DIY calibration with the assistance of Avia/DVE. Also, many calibrators travel about.
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post #67 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 02:51 PM
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wow i agree bob 100%. i have a 48 inch toshiba rptv thats still going strong at 13 years. i use it almost everyday. i picked up a hitachi 57f59 to replace my panasonic rptv that got messed up ( long story) it was funny when i went to purchase it the salesmen asked me why i want old technology that doesn't have the picture like the new lcd,dlp ect.. i told him no thanks i'll take my crt rptv any day. i told him once i get my crt rptv setup right it will look as good if not better then any of the lcd,dlp's in the store. i also told him i don't feel like spending $200+ for a bulb every two years or usually much sooner. i asked him why i should spend $2000+ for a tv that will not have as good of a picture as the f59 and most likely will not last more then 5 years compared to the f69. i got a 57inch hd tv for under $1300 with an ext warranty and i know if i take care of it like my toshiba it should last me 5 to 10 years. one last thing is i have e-mailed serveral manufactures about them not making crt rptv's anymore and they give me the same story. i know it has nothing to do with the BS they reply in the e-mail and more to do with $$. why would they make a tv that last 5 to 1o years and don't have that much markup, when they can make a dlp or lcd rptv that last maybe 5 years and the markup is probably 3 times as much. just come out and say it's about the money and stop lying and giving me bs replys to my questions about no longer making crt rptv's.
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post #68 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

They all do (all that I am aware of, I'm sure somewhere there's some oddball exception, everytime I say 'all' someone jumps in with some left-field exception!)

Projection CRTs drive the phosphors a lot harder than a direct view, and require glycol coolant fluid on the tubeface to prolong phosphor life. Air coupled CRT PJ have a flat glass plate on the tubeface that creates a sealed coolant chamber that holds glycol. Liquid Coupled CRT PJ couple the first lens element to the tubeface with coolant, eliminating the plate glass, LC coupling improves ANSI contrast and eliminates halos.

Chris,

Does this coolant ever have to be added....and if so, how often?

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post #69 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Always start with a basic DIY calibration with the assistance of Avia/DVE. Also, many calibrators travel about.

Oh, I did a diy DVE calibration years ago--turned the contrast down big time when I got it home even before that.

I copied down Mitsubishi 57f59, but only Hitachi 57f59 sets pop up in Google. Did I misread the mfg?

I believe all this--I just hope we don't all sound like the guys who praise their old turntables over those newfangled CD players!
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post #70 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wytchone View Post

Hitachi has the 57F59 currently. I own the 57F710s (last years model) and there is the 57F715 models (consider by some to be the best). 57F59 does not have a glare screen the 710's do (you really want to have a room that can control the glare here).

Mitsubishi has a 55 that very nice (Due to Katrina I could never find one in my area) 65 I found but wife veto'd one that big

Sony had a 57 at the start of 06 I could still find just hard has heck ,no Idea now.

Never saw any Panasonic, one Toshiba and I thought the Hitachi was better so I got it.

Just a added note. Had some friends over on the 1st, each with different HD TV's From LCD, to RP LCD, on Plasma SD. All agreed mine had a better wow factor. Now if I can ever find a ISF tech in my area....sigh.

thanks but i'm not finding the 57F715 at all, and the others have the big cabinet underneath. i need one w/o the cabinet.
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post #71 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

The difference is only in the depth, which is not all that great a difference to me, compared to the difference in quality between the 2.

The difference is more than the depth. I can put a stand with all my componentry underneath a DLP; I have to put it next to a CRT, taking up an extra block of floor space to the side.
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post #72 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

The only way to make an auto-convergence system - Magic Focus (Hit), Touch Focus (Tosh) and Flash Focus (Sony) - do any sort of efficacious job is to sit way far back from the display from then on, effective reducing the size of what you are trying to watch, immensely. It's really sloppy compared to tightly stitched manual convergence, done from about 2'-3' away from your set.

Yes, manual convergence is necessary. Repeatedly. And even then, every damn time you turn the TV on, it's way out of convergence until it's warmed up for a half hour or so -- just in time to turn it off again, if you're watching a TV show. I suppose if you're the sort of dedicated videophile who remembers to turn the TV on a half hour before you want to watch it, this isn't a problem, but for regular people, it's phenomenally bothersome.

Quote:
Nothing out there presently delivers full 1920 horizontal resolution except the new HD DVD players.

That's sort of a big "except for" in my book. I can see significantly more detail, and sharper, on a DLP than I could on a CRT RPTV.
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post #73 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookeylama View Post

thanks but i'm not finding the 57F715 at all, and the others have the big cabinet underneath. i need one w/o the cabinet.

Whoops should have mentioned that you can find the 715's referb from time to time. Im guessing 2003 models. I have no clue if any CRT RP never had the bottom cabinet. I know you can removed it(710's) but no idea if it would affect the pq (no sound I get but with a A/V no biggie).
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post #74 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 04:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Chris,

Does this coolant ever have to be added....and if so, how often?

No, not unless it leaks out for some reason.
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post #75 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 05:19 PM
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Interesting, I just got a local deal on some VMPS speakers and the guy insisted I take his old Pioneer RPTV, it was a all or none deal.

Well I dropped the thing off at my friends house and gave it to him, his first big screen TV. Ok the things 10years old and looked like crap.

I taught him how to pull out all the stops. First and upmost CLEANINGs We cleaned the mirror, lenses, took the lenses off and cleaned the guns, cleaned the back of the screen. Clean, clean, clean.

I converged it, focused it and tuned the grayscale with colorfacts. The set looked totally different. A dull lifeless image turned into a bright contrasty image. The guys happy as can be.

Clean the dust off guys.

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post #76 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 06:11 PM
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Just because BluRay carries video with 1920x1080 pixel's, does NOT mean that the video is 1920x1080 visible resolution.
Remember, we are still dealing with heavily compressed video, even at BluRays maximum data rate of 40Mbps. Uncompressed 1080i is over 1.2Gbps.

1080 video cameras cant resolve 1920x1080, and most film transfers are no where near 1920x1080, so we will have to wait and see just how much resolution is really available with BluRay.
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post #77 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 07:24 PM
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Two things.

One: I'd like to check out a new crtrp if they had ever made a 1080p crtrp.

Two: I currently own a sony crtrp. Is opening and wiping down the "optics" something that I could do on my own?
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post #78 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogbuehi View Post

Two things.

One: I'd like to check out a new crtrp if they had ever made a 1080p crtrp.

Two: I currently own a sony crtrp. Is opening and wiping down the "optics" something that I could do on my own?

1. No rear projection set out resolves 1080p to my knoweldge

2. If you are careful, use the right kind of cloth and solution(MrBob can help you with the solution) If you do this make sure to whipe down mirror while you are at it.
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post #79 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Get it calibrated!


Mr Bob

Would love too, but that is the prob with owning an RCA I am scared that I will put out the money for the calibration and "BAM" the set Dies I have tweaked the hell out of the set my self and think I have an pretty damn good picture but my main problem is geometry, I just cant get it perfect.

Check out my Home Theater
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post #80 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 08:02 PM
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I have mixed emotions. I own an ISF-calibrated 58" Pioneer Elite which still looks great. HD, including HD DVD, is stunning. Yet the new microdisplays really look sleek and I keep wanting to get one into my living room. On the plus side, due to (I assume) better focus - I've noticed over the past few years that the mesh soccer nets are fully and cleanly resolved by the microdisplays whenever the camera zooms out to include the bulk of the playing field, while under the same circumstances the nets are a haze on - for instance - 65" Mitsubishi CRT rear projectors with 9" guns. I believe that the new microsdisplays are completely free of any blooming for bright white portions of the image, compared to my Elite which can obscure detail in these portions of an image. On the other hand, the microdisplays are still overly susceptible to noise. I checked out a new 57" Mitsubishi DLP which has 12 bit processing - we were watching an outdoor island scene on The Discovery Channel HD. The salesman at the Home Theater Store assured me that this new model would not show macroblocking, like I had seen on the previous model, but its picture still contained a fair amount of bothersome noise which made me want to move the furniture further back from the screen. I really want the new technologies to make needed breakthroughs in their image quality, but continue to admire the picture on the Pioneer Elite when I return home. Based upon what I've seen, it will be another year before I can part with the Pioneer.

Dennis

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post #81 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 08:06 PM
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I have the Panny 47x54 for around 1 1/2 years and loving it. I have my Xbox 360, Moto 6412 box and my Panny DVD S77 connected and they all look great. I also have a Panny 26x50 LCD in my bedroom and my Panny x54 still looks better. I will be getting the Tosh A1 shortly and I can't wait to see how HD-DVD looks on it.

Rob
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post #82 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 08:14 PM
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I had a Sony 46WT500, which I sold for a surprisingly huge amount of money and bought a DLP to replace it. The DLP is 50" so it's bigger, which is good. It also has HDMI (which I don't use but I feel really good having it anyway), and it looks much better in our living room. DLPs are so much more compact and stylish. And seeing as it is in our living room, stylish is important. The picture is better, in my opinion, than my 46" CRT RP, and nearly as good as the plasma I had for a couple weeks before I returned it for the DLP. And most importantly, no burn-in. No regrets.

CRTs just aren't stylish or hip enough anymore. And they are getting hard to find. When I was in Circuit City I didn't see any CRT RPs at all.
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post #83 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avjeff View Post

I had a Sony 46WT500, which I sold for a surprisingly huge amount of money and bought a DLP to replace it. The DLP is 50" so it's bigger, which is good. It also has HDMI (which I don't use but I feel really good having it anyway), and it looks much better in our living room. DLPs are so much more compact and stylish. And seeing as it is in our living room, stylish is important. The picture is better, in my opinion, than my 46" CRT RP, and nearly as good as the plasma I had for a couple weeks before I returned it for the DLP. And most importantly, no burn-in. No regrets.

CRTs just aren't stylish or hip enough anymore. And they are getting hard to find. When I was in Circuit City I didn't see any CRT RPs at all.

My circuit city has a area sectioned off with CRT rear projections, theres 5-6 of them, hitachi aspect, hitachi 51F59, hitachi 57F59, and like 2 different RCA's

Bestbuys around here have about 5 also, sony toshibas mistubishis and rcas(actually these probably all dissappeared over the last couple months except the rcas)

CircuitCity sometimes gets in 65inch panasonics for like $1150, same goes for samsclub.

Sears carries hitachis, sonys, and maganavoxs...they also have the 47inch CRT samsung that most stores label as DLP
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post #84 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballz2TheWallz View Post

1. No rear projection set out resolves 1080p to my knoweldge

2. If you are careful, use the right kind of cloth and solution(MrBob can help you with the solution) If you do this make sure to whipe down mirror while you are at it.


I know this part. I just prefer a progressive image. They don't make a 1080p crtrp and that's why I don't want to get a new one.
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post #85 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 09:16 PM
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I'm happy with my set (Panny PT47X54) and am considering the new Hitachi 65 for my basement if it'll fit down the stairs. In general how much does it cost to get a set calibrated to make it even better?
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post #86 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogbuehi View Post

I know this part. I just prefer a progressive image. They don't make a 1080p crtrp and that's why I don't want to get a new one.

Considering many 1080p sets are twice as much, why not buy a CRT + ISF calibration to hold you off until TRUE 1080p sets are out and cheaper(IE, LED DLP with no wobulation or new SED, OLED displays)
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post #87 of 12728 Old 07-06-2006, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Several brands still make CRT HDreadys. Why does your new one have to be a fixed pixel display?


Mr Bob

PS - with all the CRT RPTVs that are currently being dumped, find a used Elite 730. Or 630 or 530.

They are magnificent, and have a superb 480->1080i upconversion circuit, that upconverts ALL 480 content to 1080i, even OTA SD 480i.

Which formerly required a Faroudja-grade scaler to do.

One word...Space. I just don't have the space to fit a CRT for the size I would like. I remember when I had my elite 530, i had to remove the door frame of the room just for it to make the turn to go into the HT room.
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post #88 of 12728 Old 07-07-2006, 12:48 AM
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i like CRT's picture quality, but i dont like having a TV that weighs as much as my house.
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post #89 of 12728 Old 07-07-2006, 02:07 AM
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The RPTVs usually come with castors. At any rate they don't weigh nearly as much as that 40" Sony direct view of a few years ago. I think the Sony was somewhere around 300 lbs.
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post #90 of 12728 Old 07-07-2006, 04:32 AM
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I disagree for the most part. Yes, I know that CRT RPJ's have better black levels but IMO, that is where the benefits stop!

First off, these units are big and clunky and usually weight no less than 200 lbs for a 52' model. My 52' LCoS set weighs 80 lbs and takes up much less room (even with the stand).

Second, I went through two CRT RPJ's in a little over two years with both of them having major mechanical issues. My first set had a bad power source and the second set needed all three CRT's replaced in a matter of a year and a half. (Thank God for extended warranties!)

Third, CRT RPJ guns will need a coolant change after a while. Professionally a job like this will cost a consumer upwards of $500. Not to mention even finding someone who is willing to work on one of these televisions in a couple of years. Any major repair on a microdisplay can be finished in less than an hour. To replace CRT guns consists of at least 3 hours, not to mention the time it takes to realign the picture.

Four, I always had to keep adjusting the convergence on my CRT RPJ. The red or blue would always split away especially in the corners. This will never be a problem with my LCoS set.

Owning my CRT RPJ felt like a chore and I was never able to enjoy it for a long period of time. I am sure that many of you probably never had a bad experience with your CRT RPJ's. I am not one of those people. You can say what you want, but this is how I feel. I know that many micro owners have had bulb issues (for the most part) and other issues as well. Obviously these threads are completley based on someones own personal experience. Mine was bad.
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Pioneer Elite , Panasonic Tc P65v10 65 Inch 1080p Plasma Hdtv , Plasma Hdtv
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