Don't dump your CRT RPTV! - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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post #1081 of 12594 Old 03-04-2007, 08:27 AM
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Mr Bob (or anyone else), have you ever calibrated a Sony KP57WS510 and if so do you recommend removing the outer protective screen ("glare screen")? I'm finally thinking about doing it and have read up some on it. My main concern is how much will it affect the convergence and focus now that the other screens will move forward the thickness of the protective screen. I'd prefer not to have to re-work all of that.
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post #1082 of 12594 Old 03-04-2007, 10:41 AM
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Quote:


...do you recommend removing the outer protective screen ("glare screen")

My memory eludes me on what the pros say & I don't have time to do a search. But this layman says get it off yesterday, it's one of my smartest moves!
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post #1083 of 12594 Old 03-04-2007, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I usually let the set warm for two hours. I was just curious as to how much drift along the edges is typical as compared to the center.

Don't know, don't own a Sony.

Quote:



Also, is it pretty easy for a repair tech to transfer my current EPROM to the new IC board?

On Mits's, they have them as tiny separate boards made up as plug-ins, which makes it almost instant. DK on Sonys.


Quote:


What can I expect everything to look like after they replace power supply and IC board?

Your set will still need some conv trim - which again has to be done after the set has had time to warm up for at least 45 minutes, and the tech may not have that kind of time - but that's a lot better than having to start from scratch.

On Mits's, there is very little trim needing to be done after an IC replacement. On Pioneers, IC replacement USUALLY causes very little change, but on occasion has caused a LOT of change in that IC's performance.

On board replacement I don't know, because I always am able to save a board by IC replacement, plus sometimes coil and/or resistor replacement. And sometimes fuse replacement. The only time I have replaced boards in the last 20 years was twice, once on an older Sony and once on an older Pioneer. Minimal reconv was needed in both cases. Lots less than on a Pio IC change I had to do once.

But again, it's gotta be better than starting from scratch!


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post #1084 of 12594 Old 03-04-2007, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Mr Bob (or anyone else), have you ever calibrated a Sony KP57WS510 and if so do you recommend removing the outer protective screen ("glare screen")? I'm finally thinking about doing it and have read up some on it. My main concern is how much will it affect the convergence and focus now that the other screens will move forward the thickness of the protective screen. I'd prefer not to have to re-work all of that.


I have found that NO redoing of those things has been necessary when the 1/8" thickness has been removed.

If you're worried about that, shim the other 2 layers at the front of them, between them and the screen, with the torn-off insides of matchbooks. They are just the right thickness. This takes the place of the glare screen completely, leaving the other 2 screens EXACTLY where they were before.

Then you will have NO worries about that.

On my Panny, removing the glarescreen was a double-edged sword. On one hand, I couldn't WAIT to get it offa there! On the other, my lenticular is a very high quality Panasonic lent, which is very thin. As such, it didn't stay absolutely straight in the middle, and when viewed at an off angle, it caused some degree of big in-and-out ripples in credit roll. Obviously they didn't intend for that glarescreen to ever come off, and were trusting it to keep the lent perfectly in place, which didn't totally happen once the glarescreen was removed.

But that was something I could live with, and was completely insignificant compared to the improvement in the pic with it offa there!


Removing the glare screen is one of the simplest, most dazzling improvements you can make to your CRT RPTV! Next only to optics cleaning - and deeper optics cleaning when necessary - which is even more dazzling.


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post #1085 of 12594 Old 03-04-2007, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

I have found that NO redoing of those things has been necessary when the 1/8" thickness has been removed.

If you're worried about that, shim the other 2 layers at the front of them, between them and the screen, with the torn-off insides of matchbooks. They are just the right thickness. This takes the place of the glare screen completely, leaving the other 2 screens EXACTLY where they were before.

Mr Bob

That's what I was thinking of doing, thanks!
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post #1086 of 12594 Old 03-04-2007, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post


Removing the glare screen is one of the simplest, most dazzling improvements you can make to your CRT RPTV!

even for a total novice? I'd love to do mine (loved the 46 incher without it) but am 'ascared'.

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post #1087 of 12594 Old 03-04-2007, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by newsposter View Post

even for a total novice? I'd love to do mine (loved the 46 incher without it) but am 'ascared'.

I'm sure the intrepid guys here will help you. If you want it from the horse's mouth, I am always available for phone consultation.


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post #1088 of 12594 Old 03-04-2007, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

I have found that NO redoing of those things has been necessary when the 1/8" thickness has been removed.

If you're worried about that, shim the other 2 layers at the front of them, between them and the screen, with the torn-off insides of matchbooks. They are just the right thickness. This takes the place of the glare screen completely, leaving the other 2 screens EXACTLY where they were before.

Then you will have NO worries about that.

On my Panny, removing the glarescreen was a double-edged sword. On one hand, I couldn't WAIT to get it offa there! On the other, my lenticular is a very high quality Panasonic lent, which is very thin. As such, it didn't stay absolutely straight in the middle, and when viewed at an off angle, it caused some degree of big in-and-out ripples in credit roll. Obviously they didn't intend for that glarescreen to ever come off, and were trusting it to keep the lent perfectly in place, which didn't totally happen once the glarescreen was removed.

But that was something I could live with, and was completely insignificant compared to the improvement in the pic with it offa there!


Removing the glare screen is one of the simplest, most dazzling improvements you can make to your CRT RPTV! Next only to optics cleaning - and deeper optics cleaning when necessary - which is even more dazzling.


Mr Bob

The glare screen is now history, and OMG, this is by far the best thing I've done to this TV! Not only is glare a thing of the past, but its almost as though the picture has more of a 3D look to it. There is a definite difference in "look" to it now going from a glassy screen to a matte one and I love it.

As for the spacer issue, I didn't bother and all is well.
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post #1089 of 12594 Old 03-05-2007, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

The glare screen is now history, and OMG, this is by far the best thing I've done to this TV! Not only is glare a thing of the past, but its almost as though the picture has more of a 3D look to it. There is a definite difference in "look" to it now going from a glassy screen to a matte one and I love it.

As for the spacer issue, I didn't bother and all is well.



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post #1090 of 12594 Old 03-06-2007, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Don't know, don't own a Sony.



On Mits's, they have them as tiny separate boards made up as plug-ins, which makes it almost instant. DK on Sonys.




Your set will still need some conv trim - which again has to be done after the set has had time to warm up for at least 45 minutes, and the tech may not have that kind of time - but that's a lot better than having to start from scratch.

On Mits's, there is very little trim needing to be done after an IC replacement. On Pioneers, IC replacement USUALLY causes very little change, but on occasion has caused a LOT of change in that IC's performance.

On board replacement I don't know, because I always am able to save a board by IC replacement, plus sometimes coil and/or resistor replacement. And sometimes fuse replacement. The only time I have replaced boards in the last 20 years was twice, once on an older Sony and once on an older Pioneer. Minimal reconv was needed in both cases. Lots less than on a Pio IC change I had to do once.

But again, it's gotta be better than starting from scratch!


Mr Bob

Also, the temperature in my house is 7-8 degrees lower during the day when I'm at work - does this temperature contrast affect convergence? AT least around the edges of the screen?

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post #1091 of 12594 Old 03-06-2007, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Also, the temperature in my house is 7-8 degrees lower during the day when I'm at work - does this temperature contrast affect convergence? AT least around the edges of the screen?

The temperature in my house varies from 50-90+ degrees (HVAC system not installed yet) and I don't have convergence drift issues. (Mits 65813)

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post #1092 of 12594 Old 03-06-2007, 07:25 AM
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The temperature in my house varies from 50-90+ degrees (HVAC system not installed yet) and I don't have convergence drift issues. (Mits 65813)

Wow. Not even around the edges?

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post #1093 of 12594 Old 03-07-2007, 05:13 AM
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Well, the service tech is coming out this morning to replace the two boards and swap EPROM. Keeping fingers crossed!

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post #1094 of 12594 Old 03-07-2007, 08:13 AM
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I HAVE A PHILIPS 46" CRT REAR PROJECTION HDTV 1080i. TV IS HOOKED UP TO
A D* H20 RECIEVER VIA COMPONENT AND WHEN I WATCH HIGH DEF CHANNELS
WITH BRIGHT WHITE SCENES, FOR EXAMPLE APPLE COMMERCIAL WITH ALL WHITE BACKROUND PICTURE JUMPS OR BOUNCES. ANY IDEAS ON WHATS CAUSING THIS?
THIS ALSO HAPPEND WHEN I HAD HIGH DEF CABLE ALSO.
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post #1095 of 12594 Old 03-07-2007, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Well, the service tech is coming out this morning to replace the two boards and swap EPROM. Keeping fingers crossed!

Don't hold your breath too long. You'll need 100 hours on your new board before you'll know the drifting has been eradicated.



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post #1096 of 12594 Old 03-07-2007, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jclaflin5795 View Post

I HAVE A PHILIPS 46" CRT REAR PROJECTION HDTV 1080i. TV IS HOOKED UP TO
A D* H20 RECIEVER VIA COMPONENT AND WHEN I WATCH HIGH DEF CHANNELS
WITH BRIGHT WHITE SCENES, FOR EXAMPLE APPLE COMMERCIAL WITH ALL WHITE BACKROUND PICTURE JUMPS OR BOUNCES. ANY IDEAS ON WHATS CAUSING THIS?
THIS ALSO HAPPEND WHEN I HAD HIGH DEF CABLE ALSO.


Sounds like your current draw has exceeded maximum limit parameters, causing your set to protect itself.

Any chance your contrast is set at full? Should be at half the factory set level.

Try turning it down and see if that helps.


Also try turning down your capitals. Shouting at all times here on a board like this leaves no room for emphasis where you want it.

Could this be the way you watch your video? In all caps, like with contrast all the way up?


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post #1097 of 12594 Old 03-07-2007, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Don't hold your breath too long. You'll need 100 hours on your new board before you'll know the drifting has been eradicated.



Mr Bob

I meant fingers crossed that he knows what he's doing - fortunately, I think he does.

Well, he installed the two boards today - transfered over the EPROM which required soddering. All seemed to go well.

As expected, my convergence with the new board is off a lot now- I could probably bring it up to par in about 20-25 minutes. The geometry doesn't seem too much different - just red and blue mostly -- though I didn't take much time to look as I had to get to work. Overscan seems about the same as before.

Questions:

1. Should I go ahead and convergence now (which makes TV more watchable for the time being) and just do a more thorough calibration in 100 hours?

2. Can I leave my TV on for very extended periods through the day to get through the 100 hours faster? (I'm a little impatient.) I was thinking of leaving it on 12-15 hours a day. Or, do these two new boards need to be "broken in" more gradually. In other words, is 15 hours a day too much stress on them right away?

Thanks.

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post #1098 of 12594 Old 03-07-2007, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I meant fingers crossed that he knows what he's doing - fortunately, I think he does.

Well, he installed the two boards today - transfered over the EPROM which required soddering. All seemed to go well.

As expected, my convergence with the new board is off a lot now- I could probably bring it up to par in about 20-25 minutes. The geometry doesn't seem too much different - just red and blue mostly -- though I didn't take much time to look as I had to get to work. Overscan seems about the same as before.

Questions:

1. Should I go ahead and convergence now (which makes TV more watchable for the time being) and just do a more thorough calibration in 100 hours?

2. Can I leave my TV on for very extended periods through the day to get through the 100 hours faster? (I'm a little impatient.) I was thinking of leaving it on 12-15 hours a day. Or, do these two new boards need to be "broken in" more gradually. In other words, is 15 hours a day too much stress on them right away?

Thanks.


If you can stand it, wait. I couldn't, on my 65" Panny. I could not stand looking at it for more than an hour before I HAD to tear into it! Go for it, keep the conv trimmed properly during the waiting period. Otherwise you'll be tearing your hair out!

If you do the 12-15 hours/day thing - which no, won't hurt it - be sure to run your contrast and brightness all the way down when not watching it. The phosphors are not what needs the exercising.


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post #1099 of 12594 Old 03-07-2007, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

If you can stand it, wait. I couldn't, on my 65" Panny. I could not stand looking at it for more than an hour before I HAD to tear into it! Go for it, keep the conv trimmed properly during the waiting period. Otherwise you'll be tearing your hair out!

If you do the 12-15 hours/day thing - which no, won't hurt it - be sure to run your contrast and brightness all the way down when not watching it. The phosphors are not what needs the exercising.


Mr Bob

Thanks, Bob. I left the house today with a station running - kept the display in zoom mode to avoid the station icon (in the corner) and put the brightness and contrast close to zero.

Another positive thing today - One of the new boards (I think it's the IC board) installed contains the component video inputs. If you recall, one of my previous component video inputs had no red working which was going to cause me to buy a switcher. But, now it looks I don't have to with this new board as the input, of course, works now.

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post #1100 of 12594 Old 03-07-2007, 10:06 AM
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One other question - do these new boards change my grayscale?

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post #1101 of 12594 Old 03-07-2007, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Thanks, Bob. I left the house today with a station running - kept the display in zoom mode to avoid the station icon (in the corner) and put the brightness and contrast close to zero.

Another positive thing today - One of the new boards (I think it's the IC board) installed contains the component video inputs. If you recall, one of my previous component video inputs had no red working which was going to cause me to buy a switcher. But, now it looks I don't have to with this new board as the input, of course, works now.

One other question - do these new boards change my grayscale?



Awright!


If the new boards contain grayscale material, maybe. If they don't, and are strictly image structure, prolly not.

Would require a fullscale looksee at the schematic to know for sure. You might want to call and ask them that.


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post #1102 of 12594 Old 03-07-2007, 10:40 AM
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Thanks for the info bob & sorry about the caps. I will double check my contrast which I believe is set between 50-60% after calibration with DVE. If contrast is set correctly any
other ideas?
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post #1103 of 12594 Old 03-07-2007, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Awright!


If the new boards contain grayscale material, maybe. If they don't, and are strictly image structure, prolly not.

Would require a fullscale loosee at the schematic to know for sure. You might want to call and ask them that.


Mr Bob

Oh, yet another question...

Will green/geometry shift as much as red and blue during this 100 hour period?

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post #1104 of 12594 Old 03-07-2007, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jclaflin5795 View Post

Thanks for the info bob & sorry about the caps. I will double check my contrast which I believe is set between 50-60% after calibration with DVE. If contrast is set correctly any
other ideas?


No matter where your contr is currently set, try turning it down and see if that helps, before going any further here.

If that doesn't help, I believe you will be having problems with your ACL - Auto contrast level - circuit.

Which would be beyond my regular field of experience so far, on these sets.


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post #1105 of 12594 Old 03-07-2007, 06:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Oh, yet another question...

Will green/geometry shift as much as red and blue during this 100 hour period?


All 6 channels involved do the same type of job, just on different colors and in different directions.

I would say yes.


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post #1106 of 12594 Old 03-08-2007, 01:49 AM
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I have a pioneer elite pro-710hd...Developed a convergence problem..The blue jumped way over and would not realign..Had the local authorized pioneer repair come out .they diagnosed as bad amplifier chips replaces 110 for 150..This only aligned the center of the picture...most of the screen is still way off..They said they need to take the whole tv back to their shop for further diagnoses...Any ideas would be great...The service tech said the solder joints on the convergence board look fine.
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post #1107 of 12594 Old 03-08-2007, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottso View Post

I have a pioneer elite pro-710hd...Developed a convergence problem..The blue jumped way over and would not realign..Had the local authorized pioneer repair come out .they diagnosed as bad amplifier chips replaces 110 for 150..This only aligned the center of the picture...most of the screen is still way off..They said they need to take the whole tv back to their shop for further diagnoses...Any ideas would be great...The service tech said the solder joints on the convergence board look fine.


The solder j's on conv bds for x10 series Pios have not looked bad to me either, any of them I have come across. Bright, shiny and gleaming, fully intact. Elsewhere in the sys they go bad, but not on the conv. It's always the ICs themselves that go out in Pios, on conv.

On the PS board there's a regulator that is part of the myriads of cold solder joints the x10's are developing now, at their present age, on that board. This regulator affects the conv and if you are still having problems, its conns need to be checked out, and may be failing even if you can't see the cracks. It's only 4-5 pins, so resoldering it is a breeze once you're in there.

Resoldering it does NOT need to involve taking your set away, and I would strongly recommend that you NOT allow them to take it away. Are you really ready to have it come back to you with a big scratch right in the middle of the black lacquer piano finish because of some bozo in a moving van not having his eye on things because he was in the middle of a tiff with his wife or girlfriend right then and didn't have his mind on his bizness? Or more to the point, yours?

The PS boards on ALL x10 series Elites - and non-Elites - should be resoldered anyway, stem to stern. They have been going out like crazy, see the thread here in this section about "Problems with the Pioneer 510", which has the same electronics as yours.


Even when that regulator is in good shape and well soldered on the PS bd, in some cases the replacement ICs have different characteristics from the old ones, and produce a far different paradigm from the original factory one. In which case a thorough geometry/reconvergence has to be performed. To get it done as well as the factory did, will entail a possibly very intensive learning curve on the part of the tech. To get it as tight as it is actually capable of can really only be achieved by someone with years of experience with Pios, like myself, as it is very convoluted in there and there are lots of twists and turns you have to very carefully - and patiently - learn, to its conv sys. A newbie to it will get it close, but prolly will not have nearly the patience - and most likely not nearly the experience - required to get it as tight as I can.

Again, this does not need to happen at their shop, it is best done ON LOCATION.

I am available for phone consultation, if you'd like them to give me a call. It's not free, but emminently worth what I charge for it, and then some.

BTW, ALL scanrates and aspect ratios will have been affected by the same ICs, and as such ALL will need this work. HD, Full, Cinema Wide, Natural Wide, and Zoom.


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post #1108 of 12594 Old 03-08-2007, 11:38 AM
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Is it common for manufacturers to send out refurb boards?

My service tech said the one board they sent was not brand new since it didn't have the plastic seal on it (like convergence board had). I think it MIGHT be the IC board actually. However, he said since the red cable wire was clean, the board should be ok. Thoughts on this? Is this going to lead into another problem for me one day? Why not just send out a new board (must cost more, of course).

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post #1109 of 12594 Old 03-08-2007, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Is it common for manufacturers to send out refurb boards?

My service tech said the one board they sent was not brand new since it didn't have the plastic seal on it (like convergence board had). I think it MIGHT be the IC board actually. However, he said since the red cable wire was clean, the board should be ok. Thoughts on this? Is this going to lead into another problem for me one day? Why not just send out a new board (must cost more, of course).

This is basically the way the Manufacturers deal with keeping costs down and fixing problems. They R&R the boards and send to Manufacturer for evaluation and find a fix for possible problems. A refurb board may perform better than a new board because it will generally contain all revisions.

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post #1110 of 12594 Old 03-08-2007, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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This is basically the way the Manufacturers deal with keeping costs down and fixing problems. They R&R the boards and send to Manufacturer for evaluation and find a fix for possible problems. A refurb board may perform better than a new board because it will generally contain all revisions.

Good point. But are revisions something you generally see on CRT RPTV boards, which are usually not heavily supported with revisions, coming out with new boards every year?

I would expect to see revisions on studio monitors, but not on an awful lot of consumer stuff.

I know the Mits's have used a different set of conv ICs in every model year since they began the HDready series. Sometimes one in there, sometimes 2, but always different next year from the year before. The sm has stayed basically the same except for getting smaller and smaller each year, but the major components, anyway, kept changing, rather than simply being improved and revised each year.

Kinda wasteful to design and then tool and dye up for a completely new and different set of boards each year IMHO, but nobody asked me...



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