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Rear Projection Units > Don't dump your CRT RPTV!
Turnbough's Avatar Turnbough 07:41 PM 07-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
I ordered a converter from Amazon, it was the only one I could get in time for the weekend. It's HDCP-compliant so I'm hoping it works but if not it's easy to return.

I've done the convergence before, a very long time ago and I don't even remember the remote codes to get in and back out of the adjustment screen. I'm sure the procedure is on the web somewhere and I'll look around for it but if someone here could lay it out for me that would be great.

It may even be on this forum somewhere, I just haven't had the chance to do a serious search for it yet.

I'm 97% on the way to getting the Samsung F8500 plasma, but if I can get this Mits image a little tighter it will allow me to manage the funding for the plasma a little easier.
I'm not sure on the x15 series but on the x13 series it's ( menu-0-3-5-9 ) for SM convergence #4 for fine adjustments and #5 for course adjustments. Once you tune up your convergence I believe you keep pressing menu till you back all the way out to save your work..don't press cancel or home..it'll piss you off if you hit it after 30-45mins of adjusting to watch it all get erased (lesson learned).

Hope these codes work for you

LastButNotLeast's Avatar LastButNotLeast 08:12 AM 07-04-2014
You should save your work every few minutes anyway, as though you were working on an important document on your computer.
Which you sort of are.
taichi4's Avatar taichi4 10:36 AM 07-04-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
You should save your work every few minutes anyway, as though you were working on an important document on your computer.
Which you sort of are.
An excellent point!
Turnbough's Avatar Turnbough 11:59 AM 07-04-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
You should save your work every few minutes anyway, as though you were working on an important document on your computer.
Which you sort of are.
Absolutely.. thanks for mentioning it I obviously forgot too. I usually save every 5-10 minutes
Keenan's Avatar Keenan 01:27 PM 07-04-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turnbough View Post
I'm not sure on the x15 series but on the x13 series it's ( menu-0-3-5-9 ) for SM convergence #4 for fine adjustments and #5 for course adjustments. Once you tune up your convergence I believe you keep pressing menu till you back all the way out to save your work..don't press cancel or home..it'll piss you off if you hit it after 30-45mins of adjusting to watch it all get erased (lesson learned).

Hope these codes work for you
Didn't try 0359 yet but found a site that indicates for my chassis it's 2459, and it worked. I just have to remember how to do the actual adjustment because as I recall it wasn't very intuitive and there were several times where I was repeating the same section.

I do heed the save work suggestion, that I do remember!

I also need to adjust the overscan but I recall that whole procedure combined with adjusting the convergence to be very tedious.
LastButNotLeast's Avatar LastButNotLeast 02:41 PM 07-04-2014
How close are you to Bob?
Keenan's Avatar Keenan 04:02 PM 07-04-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
How close are you to Bob?
Probably an hour drive, I've already talked to him briefly about the HDCP input problem. I would have him come up and clean/cal the unit if I could get the HDMI port back in use but I have yet to even figure out what's wrong as no one so far has heard of the problem before. Without it functional it just seems like throwing good money after bad. At this point I'm just trying to get it to an "acceptable" state until I make a decision on a new display.
Turnbough's Avatar Turnbough 12:07 PM 07-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
Didn't try 0359 yet but found a site that indicates for my chassis it's 2459, and it worked. I just have to remember how to do the actual adjustment because as I recall it wasn't very intuitive and there were several times where I was repeating the same section.

I do heed the save work suggestion, that I do remember!

I also need to adjust the overscan but I recall that whole procedure combined with adjusting the convergence to be very tedious.
I haven't messed with overscan reduction (I cheated and bought a DVDO edge and use the underscan function) so I have no idea about that.. on convergence I may be wrong but I start in the dead center of the screen and work my way out in a spiral pattern till I reach the edges..you may also be able to use the shimming mod for the overscan reduction you may need to contact Mr.Bob about that. if its an option for you if the overscan was previously reduced in the service menu..been awhile since I read it but its something about uneven phosphor aging.
Keenan's Avatar Keenan 12:39 PM 07-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turnbough View Post
I haven't messed with overscan reduction (I cheated and bought a DVDO edge and use the underscan function) so I have no idea about that.. on convergence I may be wrong but I start in the dead center of the screen and work my way out in a spiral pattern till I reach the edges..you may also be able to use the shimming mod for the overscan reduction you may need to contact Mr.Bob about that. if its an option for you if the overscan was previously reduced in the service menu..been awhile since I read it but its something about uneven phosphor aging.
I have a DVDO VP50 but the only component output is via BNC jacks and I don't have a BNC>RCA cable/adapter. I do have some BNC>RCA adapters coming Monday though so maybe I'll wait until they arrive before trying to deal with the overscan. Alternatively I have that component>HDMI converter coming today and if that works I can take care of the overscan that way(via the VP50), hopefully anyway. I'll also be able to use my TiVo Roamio as well which will be nice.
Turnbough's Avatar Turnbough 07:33 PM 07-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
I have a DVDO VP50 but the only component output is via BNC jacks and I don't have a BNC>RCA cable/adapter. I do have some BNC>RCA adapters coming Monday though so maybe I'll wait until they arrive before trying to deal with the overscan. Alternatively I have that component>HDMI converter coming today and if that works I can take care of the overscan that way(via the VP50), hopefully anyway. I'll also be able to use my TiVo Roamio as well which will be nice.
The converter should work like you never lost your HDMI. The only thing I'd look at is the image quality from the knockoff HDfury boxes. I've only read way to many reviews and comparison charts for my info on the subject. I don't have any hands on or eyes on experience with any HDMI to component converters so it could look amazing as far as I know. I've thought about buying a Fury for awhile now base on the picture difference between a 480p signal from my blu-ray over DVI compared to the same signal over component. Component just looked cleaner if that makes sense.
Mr Bob's Avatar Mr Bob 09:27 PM 07-05-2014
Sorry I have not been real available for the last little while, life kept getting in the way...

Keenan, did you try the 3rd component input on your set, like I suggested on the phone? Not sure of your model number, but for a few years that was the only one of the 3 component inputs that will do 1080i. The other 2 limit you to 480p, which is labeled on them at the back of the set.

As you recall I also recommended dismissing the idea of expecting anything great from HDMI on your set. As I told you on the phone, Mit lost its edge when it went to HDMI. Their version of DVI was just fine, but they lost it when they went to HDMI. I won't use it on my last-gen set, and I read that one of our highest-eschelon calibrator-techs - Craig Rounds I believe - ran a scope on it and found it to be woefully deficient on bandwidth. Some design challenge they never cleared up, looks like, which has turned into a downright flaw. Or fly, if you are willing to throw in the word ointment to the discussion...

I highly recommend to everyone that you pass on using HDMI on any Mit CRT RPTVs, and stick to DVI or the par-excellence component inputs, which can be dialed in like nobody's business. Come see my Mit in action, or look up the recent pix I repeated of the Maybelline commercial I shot on my set. All pix on this thread from my set are via component only. No HDMI, no RGB, no DVI, no DVDO, no Moome, no HD Fury - except for 480 to 1080 upconversions, but not used for true HD - no Darbee Darblet...

Just straight-thru component. HD the way it was always meant to look. Fully dialed in.

As I have said many times on these fora, HDMI was not created to improve our signal. We had signal perfection already, long before HDMI. It is ONLY there to prevent piracy by encoding/decoding content via HDCP. It is not needed for our sets and only provides yet again another way to step on an already perfect signal.

b
taichi4's Avatar taichi4 09:50 AM 07-06-2014
Kudos to Bob for using the proper plural term for forum...fora.

I never used that term (though I took some Latin in school).

However, one can use the word forums as well, as it has passed into common usage in English.

Now back to our regular programming.
phildaant's Avatar phildaant 10:03 AM 07-06-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post
Kudos to Bob for using the proper plural term for forum...fora.

I never used that term (though I took some Latin in school).

However, one can use the word forums as well, as it has passed into common usage in English.

Now back to our regular programming.
Wow, I thought it was forums, not fora. I learned something new!
taichi4's Avatar taichi4 11:40 AM 07-06-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by phildaant View Post
Wow, I thought it was forums, not fora. I learned something new!
You can still use forums, but fora is truer to the Latin. With long usage in English, forums is still not incorrect.

With certain classes of nouns in Latin the plural first person (nominative case) ends in a, where the simgular ends in um.

Um...of course this thread is still about CRT RPTV, but that doesn't mean we can't expand our minds. After all, to have our sets as we do, there must be a high individuality quotient on this thread. No lemmings here.
Keenan's Avatar Keenan 12:38 PM 07-06-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turnbough View Post
The converter should work like you never lost your HDMI. The only thing I'd look at is the image quality from the knockoff HDfury boxes. I've only read way to many reviews and comparison charts for my info on the subject. I don't have any hands on or eyes on experience with any HDMI to component converters so it could look amazing as far as I know. I've thought about buying a Fury for awhile now base on the picture difference between a 480p signal from my blu-ray over DVI compared to the same signal over component. Component just looked cleaner if that makes sense.
An update, it turns out the HDMI port is now working again. I'm not sure if it was having the converter plugged inline with the signal from the TiVo>Mits or what, but it is now working which means I can now use my TiVo for viewing TV and online content insetad of being restricted to the limited offering I have with the DIRECTV DVR - I basically retain DIRECTV for MLB-EI and only activate it during the 6 mos of the baseball season.

I also spent some time adjusting the convergence and it helped a lot, but I do plan to go in and do it again today, taking my time and being as precise as my eyes will allow me to get - yesterday was pretty much a quick and dirty "let's see if this helps at all" effort.

To be honest, I can't really comment on the quality of the converter as I didn't spend much time with it at all. If anyone is interested, the particular unit I got is this one here, from Amazon.
Keenan's Avatar Keenan 12:50 PM 07-06-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post
Sorry I have not been real available for the last little while, life kept getting in the way...

Keenan, did you try the 3rd component input on your set, like I suggested on the phone? Not sure of your model number, but for a few years that was the only one of the 3 component inputs that will do 1080i. The other 2 limit you to 480p, which is labeled on them at the back of the set.

As you recall I also recommended dismissing the idea of expecting anything great from HDMI on your set. As I told you on the phone, Mit lost its edge when it went to HDMI. Their version of DVI was just fine, but they lost it when they went to HDMI. I won't use it on my last-gen set, and I read that one of our highest-eschelon calibrator-techs - Craig Rounds I believe - ran a scope on it and found it to be woefully deficient on bandwidth. Some design challenge they never cleared up, looks like, which has turned into a downright flaw. Or fly, if you are willing to throw in the word ointment to the discussion...

I highly recommend to everyone that you pass on using HDMI on any Mit CRT RPTVs, and stick to DVI or the par-excellence component inputs, which can be dialed in like nobody's business. Come see my Mit in action, or look up the recent pix I repeated of the Maybelline commercial I shot on my set. All pix on this thread from my set are via component only. No HDMI, no RGB, no DVI, no DVDO, no Moome, no HD Fury - except for 480 to 1080 upconversions, but not used for true HD - no Darbee Darblet...

Just straight-thru component. HD the way it was always meant to look. Fully dialed in.

As I have said many times on these fora, HDMI was not created to improve our signal. We had signal perfection already, long before HDMI. It is ONLY there to prevent piracy by encoding/decoding content via HDCP. It is not needed for our sets and only provides yet again another way to step on an already perfect signal.

b
Thanks for the response.

There are two component inputs on the WS73615 and both are 1080i-capable.

I plan to try the different inputs over the next few days but right now I'm just enjoying being able to use the set again as I was certain that it was done for and I'd be looking at an LED in a day or two.

That said, after seeing what the F8500 Samsung can do I'm leaning very heavily toward that being my next display, and likely very soon.

Something that I'd like to ask, as I recall, the "low" setting for color temperature is the closet to the D6500K standard?
Mr Bob's Avatar Mr Bob 01:27 PM 07-06-2014
The closest setting on a Mit CRT is the one that makes pure b/w material at midpointed light levels on Contrast look closest to the look of a heavily overcast cloudy day. Mit's are rarely even close, on any of their 3 choices.

One way to get pure b/w is to disco the Pb and Pr, leaving the Y connected. Y alone gives you pure b/w. The whitest of whites will not be linear with the lower light levels of gray, colorwise, when the Contrast is anything over halfway up on their Contrast bargraph.

Remember, Mit slews their bargraph such that actual midpoint of the light levels given off by the set are at around 35-40% up on that bargraph. The actual midpoint of the bargraph is already 80-90% up. This has been confirmed with color analyzers, in measuring the foot-lamberts involved. You can confirm this by counting the number of clicks that actually make a difference in light level in the top half of the bargraph vs. the bottom half.

I usually find High to be closest to that overcast cloudy day scenario, but not by much. Have not had a Mit yet, in all these years, where the factory grayscale setting was close enough to where it should be that I was willing to leave it alone. Have seen such an animal in the Toshiba and Sony brands, but it is a rare find.

Mit loves the color red. Pink grayscales and red push are among their loyalties, and it's always worst at the Low setting. I always have to fully calibrate Mit big screens just to make them look halfway compatible to reality, and realigning the red push out of them after the grayscale is always desired as well.

Mit is definitely a top grade monitor - best of the best, finest of the fine - and can be dialed in like nobody's business, but their factory grayscales are all over the map. Once they decided they loved the color red, they evidently also decided that delivering something ballpark close to the reasonably good grayscale to their customer base was all they needed to do after that. So ballpark it they did. The only lowest common denominator I have found in their grayscales was that it was always some shade of pink.

But that's all in the setup of the set. Grayscales are completely aligned, none of them are born that way. No brand was any better or worse on the efficacy of their grayscale just by way of their brand alone. All can be fine tuned to a completely acceptable grayscale.

A calibrated, fully dialed in Mit, now that's like a fully tuned up Lambo - a wonder to behold. I am dead certain that having me calibrate your Mit would give you pause as to whether you REALLY want to put the hammer down on another several thousand, for the Sammy 8500.

And with the 9" guns your set has, vs. the much more normal/typical 7" guns - well, just multiply what I just said by 2.



b

PS - all the brands have different characteristics in their convergence paradigms and commands. Each brand has a different personality, from each having had a different designer. If you want to dial yours in to the max, sign up for a coaching phone session with me. You will not be sorry.
taichi4's Avatar taichi4 02:23 PM 07-06-2014
I find that "High" always looks best on my 65813.
smokozuna's Avatar smokozuna 11:03 PM 07-06-2014
i finally dumped my Toshiba 57HX83 CRT for a Mitsubishi 73734 DLP and could not be happier. The Tosh didn't have HDMI but it did have DVI. The DVI though did not look anywhere near as good as Component. With the Xbox One and PS4 being HDMI only I needed a TV with HDMI inputs, there was just no way around it. Those converter boxes are way too expensive and I worry how reliable they would be long term. I bought my 73" DLP for $260 delivered and sold my 57" CRT for $100 and the guy picked it up so I made out OK. I am thrilled to no longer have all the overscan on the CRT and I am loving having 4 HDMI's on the DLP.
Mr Bob's Avatar Mr Bob 12:07 AM 07-07-2014
Couldn't you have used a simple passive HDMI to DVI adapter or converter cable and gotten an HDMI switcher? Seems a lot less expensive than buying a DLP set.

Only caveat would be, if the DVI did not look all that great compared to component, then maybe the HDMI conversion to DVI would look the same. Not all that great.

I have been using the HD Fury's for years, they are solidly built and stand the test of time just fine.

Looks like you got a good buy, tho. A 73" Mit DLP for $260??? Nice score!



b
taichi4's Avatar taichi4 09:32 AM 07-07-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
...
I'm 97% on the way to getting the Samsung F8500 plasma, but if I can get this Mits image a little tighter it will allow me to manage the funding for the plasma a little easier.

Get the best warranty you can, as the plasma will be the last of its kind. Samsung is exiting plasma production,
taichi4's Avatar taichi4 12:07 PM 07-07-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgeese View Post
Before I trash my set...

I have a Sony kp43ht20 and it has been a wonderful set - until recently

I have two, well organized rows of white dots that sit across the top third of the TV. Dots are very uniform - not at all unorganized and 14 per row. I have searched and searched for similar issues; however, I can't seem to find anyone with the same problem. I have read posts of people with with "white dot issues," but those seem to be issues with the dots randomly organized on screen, nothing like what I have, which is to say my dots sit exactly 2" apart going side-to-side and exactly 1" apart row-to-row.

Appreciate any suggestions or advice.
I called Sony today, and tried to dredge up some answers from the ancient Library of Alexandria regarding your Sony CRT RPTV. It wasn't easy, and at times resembled a conversation that might take place when man first meets a being from another planet. I extracted what I could.

I must first add that your problem also occurs in computer displays, and also on some of Sony's LCD TVs. The following link to a Sony knowledge base article may or may not be helpful, but it's possible that there is something relevant that cuts across the divide between CRT and fixed pixel displays.

In the article they mention that broadcasters send additional information, (or artifacts) that appears along the top edge of the broadcast image, usually hidden by the scaling or resizing employed by the display.

One technique for adjusting this has to do with resizing the image, but more interestingly there is also made mention of something called "full pixel mode" that can be engaged or disabled. I'm wondering, then, if your retro set also has some form of full pixel mode, in which case the instructions given for certain key combinations on your remote (or setting controls) might disable this setting, which may be the source of your problems.

https://us.en.kb.sony.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/41471
Mr Bob's Avatar Mr Bob 12:47 PM 07-07-2014
I have witnessed the info that exists beyond the top edge of the pic, on CRTs. It shows in TV studios. This is definitely not it. It is composed of all sorts of oscilloscope patterns that would mean nothing to anybody visually, only to electronics scanners or sensors.

This is symmetrically aligned dots - not spurious, not occasional, and not random. They appear inches away from the top and are very symmetrically displayed.

Sorry I cannot participate too much in this one, got a lot on my plate right now, but Taichi4 seems to have it well in hand!



b
taichi4's Avatar taichi4 04:43 PM 07-07-2014
The Sony article does not mention spurious dots, but rather a line.

The PC and gaming sites that have referenced it posted a picture almost identical to the poster's problems, except it was one line rather than two.

I think that trying to see if there's a full pixel mode engaged, and disable it is a good step, and a necessary one in eliminating possibilities.
taichi4's Avatar taichi4 06:28 PM 07-07-2014
I downloaded the manual for this Sony set, and found a description (under troubleshooting) for dotted lines.

The two solutions mentioned were to:

Check the antenna... which we must interpret as noise coming in through an input, such as a cable or antenna input. I would check for oxidation of all of these inputs, or loose connectors.

Eliminate sources of electromagnetic "noise". This is how I am interpreting the more prosaic description in the manual. Is it possible that there is some other electronic, or electromagnetic source too close to the television?

This even makes me wonder about loudspeakers placed too close to the set. CRT sets can be affected by electronics or speakers placed too closely, unless these sources are shielded.

That's what I found so far.
Mr Bob's Avatar Mr Bob 09:32 AM 07-08-2014
The signal path on these sets is heavily shielded at all points. External magnetism from unshielded loudspeakers will affect the centering magnets and how they position the images on the CRT faces, but it will not invade the signal path.

Those patterns are not stray patterns. They are solid, synthesized images formed by a strong pattern generator. Where it is coming from I don't know - inside the unit? Outside the unit? Piggybacking on some other signal coming in from the outside? Something inside that is generating those images and has come unshielded?

That's what I know so far.

b
taichi4's Avatar taichi4 10:28 AM 07-08-2014
I did a little research this morning and send a PM to the original poster. I ran across numerous articles about CRT owners who have experienced exactly the same sort of thing... regularly space dotted lines. The discussion in these forums and articles centered on electromagnetic interference, interference caused when heavy appliances are engaged (including washing machines), interactions with amplifiers and subwoofers, problems with house wiring, and even cabling and defective inputs.

Again, these were described as horizontal, dotted lines, regularly arranged.

Putting this aside for the moment, I do have a question for you Bob. Does the Mitsubishi 65813 decode or pass Dolby Surround? As you know a great many of today's sets do not, whereas others do.
smokozuna's Avatar smokozuna 10:42 AM 07-08-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post
Couldn't you have used a simple passive HDMI to DVI adapter or converter cable and gotten an HDMI switcher? Seems a lot less expensive than buying a DLP set.

Only caveat would be, if the DVI did not look all that great compared to component, then maybe the HDMI conversion to DVI would look the same. Not all that great.

I have been using the HD Fury's for years, they are solidly built and stand the test of time just fine.

Looks like you got a good buy, tho. A 73" Mit DLP for $260??? Nice score!



b
DVI on the Tosh did not look anywhere near as good as component. I was also tired of tinkering with overscan, geometry and convergence. Buying this DLP solved all my problems by removing the overscan from my video games and giving me the ability to have multiple HDMI's at my disposal. I also always wondered what it would be like to own a 73" TV, our Tosh was a 57" and we sit 15ft away from the TV. We mainly use our TV for Xbox 360 and Xbox One and as much as I loved my Tosh it was time to let go and buy a slightly newer technology. Luckily I found a buyer for the Tosh that loves it as much as I did and it will serve there family very well.
taichi4's Avatar taichi4 11:26 AM 07-08-2014
Here is an example of a fairly recent dotted line issue posted by a plasma owner. In his original post he described regular horizontal dotted lines, much like the Sony owner reported, and like the picture which I posted. It turned out the problem had to do with cabling:

12-08-2011, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
X01A

Newbie


FIXED.

"I figured out what was causing the dotted lines. I have basic cable hooked up to this TV (wall to TV, type of connection). Turns out there was a problem with the coaxial cable I was using... when I moved the cable around to certain positions, the transparent dotted lines disappeared (must be some kind of digital noise or interference or loose connection of the coaxial cable). Also, the low buzzing I mentioned before is normal."
tw40f80's Avatar tw40f80 04:35 PM 07-10-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post
I have a trip to Orlando and Miami coming up in a few days. During the outbound flight on the 7th I will have a layover in Phoenix for about 3.5 hours, during which I would love to do something a little more worthwhile than just sitting around at the airport waiting.

I will be hitting Orlando late on the 7th and seeing Epcot Center first thing the next morning. Have a calibration on the 9th in Ft. Lauderdale, then staying with friends in Miami from the 10th to the 13th.

If anyone who is also an afficianado of the fine art of CRT HD watching, or has some of the fantastic new display tech and would be interested in comparing notes or just hoisting a tall one together, let me know. I would love to share some HD afficianado time together.

b

Bob email me next time you are near Tampa, Fl. I have 2 - 65813. One was calibrated by Craig Rounds but the other I fixed myself (blinking green light) and needs to be calibrated. I am sorry I missed you in May but I have been away from this site for a few months.

On an aside I would never part with my mits.
Tags: Pioneer Elite , Panasonic Tc P65v10 65 Inch 1080p Plasma Hdtv , Plasma Hdtv
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