Don't dump your CRT RPTV! - Page 418 - AVS Forum
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post #12511 of 12603 Old 07-15-2014, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post
Taichi4 -

On my set, my last-ever gen Mit, the ANT-1 is a full fledged digital HD tuner, but on the 65813 that had not happened yet, built-in. So on my set the internal tuner is valuable today, but on your set yes it would be worthless.b...
b
In the excerpt I posted from the manual it said the TV could pass Dolby coming in through the ATV/DTV ports. Doesn't that mean the DTV capability would allow passthrough?

I'm going to look and see if my cable box has an HDMI out in addition to the coax. Also I'm going to see if there's such a thing as a Firewire to Toslink convertor.

Of course the best thing about the 65813 is that those 9 inch tubes are outputting all that power onto a 65 inch screen.
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post #12512 of 12603 Old 07-15-2014, 10:55 AM
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This allows for enhanced shadow detail in the mid-gray light level areas without changing the Brightness/Black Level setting, keeping the blacks crystal clear and inky black. You can't get that bump-up of those 10-30 IRE light level zones from any Brightness or Black Level control, as changing the BR/BL controls to bring out the shadow detail more also changes the blacks and makes them gray instead. You can only get this from special processing, which keeps the blacks ultra black like they should be while bumping up only the mid grays, which are always challenging to see clearly.
I can't find a graph of that "gamma bump." I presume it's relatively minor (though adjustable) and peaks at 20 IRE.
?

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post #12513 of 12603 Old 07-15-2014, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Sounds right. I have never seen a graph of it either. The graph of the gamma curve itself is not linear - it's not a straight line, its a curve. That much I know.

Some circuits allow for adjustability and some do not. The Moome I had here for testing did not. The Gamma X does.

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post #12514 of 12603 Old 07-15-2014, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post
In the excerpt I posted from the manual it said the TV could pass Dolby coming in through the ATV/DTV ports. Doesn't that mean the DTV capability would allow passthrough?

I'm going to look and see if my cable box has an HDMI out in addition to the coax. Also I'm going to see if there's such a thing as a Firewire to Toslink convertor.

Of course the best thing about the 65813 is that those 9 inch tubes are outputting all that power onto a 65 inch screen.
Which means your set is even brighter than mine! And brighter still for having a glass mirror rather than my mylar one.

Then I stand corrected, on the OTA issue. DK the inner workings of the tuner on the 65813. Looks like its tuner must be digital after all. The old analog tuners were lucky to pass stereo, and you rarely got stereo out of any ch. 3 or ch. 4 cable tuners. Way back before HD, where I lived the cable boxes actually DID pass the audio in stereo out of their RF modulated channels of 3 or 4. But the only one I ever saw do it. If you came out of a VCR via ch 3 or 4, you simply gave up any hope of having anything more than mono audio.

In the early years of HD, the digital tuners available were frightfully expensive. Here you'd already paid $8000 for a moderately sized HD set, and they would want an additional $3000 if you wanted an OTA tuner for HD. They were not built-in back then. On the Pioneers they could be added into the cabinetry, but nobody was supplying them as standard built-in equipment. By the time your set came around I am sure that had been a built-in thing for quite awhile.

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post #12515 of 12603 Old 07-15-2014, 11:39 AM
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Sounds right. I have never seen a graph of it either. The graph of the gamma curve itself is not linear - it's not a straight line, its a curve.
This explains the new "standard" that may aim for the same goal:

http://www.spectracal.com/Documents/BT.1886.pdf

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post #12516 of 12603 Old 07-15-2014, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Too bad the graph appearing there didn't show the typical 2.2 gamma also.

And they spoke of it as if CRT already had the perfect gamma, and that digital is struggling to emulate that.

Truth is, even CRT benefits from the gamma bump. Cliff in Indiana, the guy who started the Screenshot War!!!!!!!! thread and whose Sony G90 double stack amazed me a few years ago (all CRT), says that all CRT tech needs the gamma bump. I agree. The 2.4 gamma used on some selected screenshots on his thread was noticeably better for shadow detail than the 2.2 setting on the exact same screenshots.

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post #12517 of 12603 Old 07-15-2014, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post
Too bad the graph appearing there didn't show the typical 2.2 gamma also.
I thought that's what this was (gray curve):


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post #12518 of 12603 Old 07-15-2014, 01:10 PM
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Thanks for the heads up Bob. There is indeed a gamma setting on the DMP-BD35. I never bothered with it before. because I didn't want to screw anything up. But I'm going into it tonight and see what happens. I'll let you all know what happens when I get more familiar with it. I still think my model series was Panny's finest hour with Blu-Ray. The PQ is absolutely stunning. And the upscaled standard DVD is excellent too.

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post #12519 of 12603 Old 07-15-2014, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post
Which means your set is even brighter than mine! And brighter still for having a glass mirror rather than my mylar one.
...
...Then I stand corrected, on the OTA issue. DK the inner workings of the tuner on the 65813. Looks like its tuner must be digital after all. b
Thanks for the update. In stereo (with cable) mode I'm definitely getting real stereo. And I know when you clean my mirror and optics it will be brighter still.
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post #12520 of 12603 Old 07-15-2014, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post
So is the 65813 incapable of taking 5.1 from cable and passing it in to a soundbar?
Can I ask why you are not sending the digital audio directly from the cable box to the sound bar? On my 65413, I have the red/white going from box to TV (sounds fine) and digital audio going directly from box to AVR for when I want surround. They are live simultaneously, so I just use whichever one is desired. Can you not do that?
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post #12521 of 12603 Old 07-15-2014, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
I thought that's what this was (gray curve):

Nep. Gray's the 2.4 curve, which is how owners are currently getting the benefit of the gamma bump. 2.2 is the classic native gamma, without any bumping.

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post #12522 of 12603 Old 07-15-2014, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post
Thanks for the heads up Bob. There is indeed a gamma setting on the DMP-BD35. I never bothered with it before. because I didn't want to screw anything up. But I'm going into it tonight and see what happens. I'll let you all know what happens when I get more familiar with it. I still think my model series was Panny's finest hour with Blu-Ray. The PQ is absolutely stunning. And the upscaled standard DVD is excellent too.
Yeah, Mike Parker kept sending up stunning screenshots of his displays to the Screenshot War thread, which of course would bring out the best of the displays using the kinds of mods he does for the overhead CRT projector people. Their shadow detail was always perfect, so I asked if he was using a Moome card. He said no, that he was able to achieve that with the internal settings on his Panasonic BD-10A player.

My good friend Roy had given me his when he got a more advanced one, and my ears perked up immediately! I am definitely going to have to fix that thing sometime soon...



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post #12523 of 12603 Old 07-15-2014, 03:16 PM
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On another note, aren't there FireWire to optical converters?
I don't think so, but if there are, they probably would be very costly. Converting a IEE-1394/firewire signal to something else is not a easy thing to do.
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post #12524 of 12603 Old 07-15-2014, 05:02 PM
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Can I ask why you are not sending the digital audio directly from the cable box to the sound bar? On my 65413, I have the red/white going from box to TV (sounds fine) and digital audio going directly from box to AVR for when I want surround. They are live simultaneously, so I just use whichever one is desired. Can you not do that?
I checked the back of my cable box, and there does appear to be an optical audio out that I could connect to a soundbar.

Thanks for pointing out what I should have known.

If I have sound going from the cable box to the TV via coax, how do I cut that out so the TV and soundbar are not overlappying soundwise? I ask this because the cable volume contril and the TV volume are interdependent the way it's currently set up.
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post #12525 of 12603 Old 07-15-2014, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post
In the excerpt I posted from the manual it said the TV could pass Dolby coming in through the ATV/DTV ports. Doesn't that mean the DTV capability would allow passthrough?

I'm going to look and see if my cable box has an HDMI out in addition to the coax. Also I'm going to see if there's such a thing as a Firewire to Toslink convertor.

Of course the best thing about the 65813 is that those 9 inch tubes are outputting all that power onto a 65 inch screen.

If Gefen doesn't have it. It probably doesn't exist. They are pricey too. Here is their site.


http://www.gefen.com/
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post #12526 of 12603 Old 07-15-2014, 05:49 PM
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My 65313 has an audio setting that you can choose whether you want your audio output fixed (controlled by the AVR or soundbar) or variable (controlled by the TV volume level) I have not found this option on my 65813. I assume the 413 shares this option with the 313 but may not be available on the 813.

Taichi4 can you run the coax to the soundbar bypassing the TV? I dont think our 813s have coax inputs just the one output from the ANT. how do you have the cable box hooked up currently audio and video? I have no idea about the firewire i've heard the word but no idea what it is or was used for.. My Email notifications are AWOL again so i'll try to check back in a bit
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post #12527 of 12603 Old 07-15-2014, 10:21 PM
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I have no idea about the firewire i've heard the word but no idea what it is or was used for..
IEEE-1394/Firewire, has the capabilities to do a lot. Which is why you will not likely find such a thing as a IEEE-1394 to Toslink convertor.


The computer industry somewhat embraced it for a short while, but in the A/V industry, because of the content providers and their concerns about copying, it definitely did not at all become widely used. Probably the widest use in AV was as a camcorder connection, and also the now very rare Digital HD VHS VCR's, such as the ones like the HM-DH40000 that JVC offered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_1394_interface
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post #12528 of 12603 Old 07-16-2014, 08:28 AM
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Taichi4 can you run the coax to the soundbar bypassing the TV? I dont think our 813s have coax inputs just the one output from the ANT. how do you have the cable box hooked up currently audio and video?
Coax from the cable box, and HDMI to DVI for the BluRay.

BSTNFAN woke me up to the fact that my cable box has optical out, which can go to the soundbar (if I get it...a soundbar is a compromise when conditions do not yet allow more equipment!)

This will do (among many other things) Toslink in and Firewire out.

WEISS DAC202 FIREWIRE D/A CONVERTER

There are a number of convertors out there, but reading through the specs is daunting.

Thanks for all the suggestions. Pretty neat that the set has Firewire, even if I don't do anything with it.

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post #12529 of 12603 Old 07-16-2014, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
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IEEE-1394/Firewire, has the capabilities to do a lot. Which is why you will not likely find such a thing as a IEEE-1394 to Toslink convertor.


The computer industry somewhat embraced it for a short while, but in the A/V industry, because of the content providers and their concerns about copying, it definitely did not at all become widely used. Probably the widest use in AV was as a camcorder connection, and also the now very rare Digital HD VHS VCR's, such as the ones like the HM-DH40000 that JVC offered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_1394_interface
Quite an interesting article, thanks!



Didn't have time to finish it all - it's pretty extensive - but got an earful anyway.

I had the chance to buy one of Panasonic's DVHS machines back when HD was first getting here, at $1750 used it was a steal at the time. It was a combo of the digital VHS machine and the OTA tuner, which were connected by Firewire. The cord with it had a noise suppression item built in to each side of it, and it was about 5' long. The combo was a Godsend when 24 was first out, as you REALLY didn't want to miss one of those episodes because you hit traffic coming home from the other side of the Bay!

It took care of me for years until the tuner's timer section started going intermittent on me and missing critical timer'd offerings - like 24! The VCR section also had a hidden flaw that caused the timing of the cogs inside to slip if you pushed a videotape in just a little too hard because you were in a hurry. Learned about that one the hard way...! Later VHS models of the same thing had a mod built-in by the factory that provided a post to shore up the section that would give when stressed by too much pressure on inserting the tape. When Dish's DVR came along I was able to record not only OTA but everything else, so the DVHS has been shelved since.

It took SVHS tapes or digital tapes and had a special sensing finger to let it know which tapes you were using on it.

I still have some of those early HD episodes of The Agency, Alias, The Practice and some KQED travelogs. Some were in 720p and some were in 1080i. With my Panny 65" that could do either HD scanrate independently of the other, I got to see native HD in each, from that tuner. My guess is that the 720p shows on FOX and ABC would not play on my current Mit, which does not do 720p at all, it simply goes black when 720p hits it.

b
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post #12530 of 12603 Old 07-16-2014, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post
I checked the back of my cable box, and there does appear to be an optical audio out that I could connect to a soundbar.

Thanks for pointing out what I should have known.

If I have sound going from the cable box to the TV via coax, how do I cut that out so the TV and soundbar are not overlappying soundwise? I ask this because the cable volume contril and the TV volume are interdependent the way it's currently set up.
I'm not sure what cable box you have, but for the past many years I've had Motorola boxes. I set the box output at the recommended level and have set the cable remote to control the TV volume even when CABLE is selected. In this manner, the cable box output level never changes. The code to do this is included with the remote instructions. When I want surround, I mute the TV (the onscreen MUTE indicator disappears after a few seconds) and use the AVR remote to control volume. I don't personally have a soundbar so I'm making an assumption that it would have it's own remote with volume control. If I wanted to, I could even set up the AUX button on the cable remote to control the AVR volume, but I haven't bothered.
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post #12531 of 12603 Old 07-16-2014, 11:10 AM
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I am without AVR, presently, and soundbars have a much smaller feature set, as you know...
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post #12532 of 12603 Old 07-16-2014, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Any digital audio will be fixed volume output. So if you're feeding your soundbar with Toslink - or coax, same thing - from any source, only the soundbar's volume control should be in play. Muting the TV's audio should not affect that, one way or another.

Please confirm, tho - is the digital audio out from your TV controlled by your TV's remote? If so then of course I am wrong...

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post #12533 of 12603 Old 07-16-2014, 12:28 PM
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... Please confirm, tho - is the digital audio out from your TV controlled by your TV's remote? If so then of course I am wrong...

b
I have no way of currently testing this. This makes me feel powerless. I'm going back to bed.
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post #12534 of 12603 Old 07-16-2014, 02:40 PM
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Gotcha..I was thinking you meant digital coaxial audio every time you said coax. Wish I had anything that accepted digital coaxial audio to try to help you out but all my audio is older than digital coax and only accepts left right stereo.
How does the picture look over coax? I've never tried it, I've always used s-video or component when available for SD and DVI for HD.
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post #12535 of 12603 Old 07-16-2014, 03:20 PM
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If the soundbar is fed straight from your cable box it should control its own volume. If you run your audio through the 813 then out to the soundbar the 813 may control the volume. I'll see if I have anything I can oaky rig when I get home to test. Best bet bypass the TV 1st get it working and see if the soundbar is going to meet your audio needs. Then see if you want to play with the other options.
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post #12536 of 12603 Old 07-16-2014, 06:52 PM
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Hey, guys. I wasn't serious about feeling powerless, or going back to bed when Bob asked me to test digital out. I was being sarcastic.

It would take a lot more to make me feel powerless...like losing the remote.
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post #12537 of 12603 Old 07-16-2014, 07:15 PM
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Hey, guys. I wasn't serious about feeling powerless, or going back to bed when Bob asked me to test digital out. I was being sarcastic.

It would take a lot more to make me feel powerless...like losing the remote.
I figured as much with the I had to reread you original post about the coaxial digital audio to figure out if it was an input or output. Once i crawled behind it I saw its only labeled as coaxial digital on the back of the unit. At least with the stereo audio outputs under the monitor out section on the back the volume worked independently of the TV with the stereo I hooked up..unfortunately I don't have anyway to test the ANT-DTV input and the digital coaxial output. But looks like the stereo output is independent so its at least hopeful that the digital would be too.
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post #12538 of 12603 Old 07-16-2014, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Gotcha..I was thinking you meant digital coaxial audio every time you said coax. Wish I had anything that accepted digital coaxial audio to try to help you out but all my audio is older than digital coax and only accepts left right stereo.
How does the picture look over coax? I've never tried it, I've always used s-video or component when available for SD and DVI for HD.
Don't know of any picture fed by coax. Tuner yes, picture no. You're missing out on great HD by not using component out, tho the Mit DVI was supposed to be the real thing too. DVI for Mit yes, HDMI for Mit no.

That said, there are 2 def's for coax: one is the F connector and RG 6 wire that cable and satellite send their signals thru. The other is the digital audio that is not fibre-optic Toslink. In this discussion I am trying to keep them well defined for the rest of us.

b

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Last edited by Mr Bob; 07-16-2014 at 08:43 PM.
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post #12539 of 12603 Old 07-16-2014, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post
Don't know of any picture fed by coax. Tuner yes, picture no. You're missing out on great HD by not using component out, tho the Mit DVI was supposed to be the real thing too. DVI for Mit yes, HDMI for Mit no.

That said, there are 2 def's for coax: one is the F connector and RG 6 wire that cable and satellite send their signals thru. The other is the digital audio that is not fibre-optic Toslink. In this discussion I am trying to keep them well defined for the rest of us.

b
Ya..sorry bout that..Taichi4 has his cable hooked up through the ANT-DTV input via rg6 (coaxial cable) which I didn't know it was a separate Turner from the ANT-A and ANT-B till I crawled back there today. The ANT-DTV has a coaxial digital audio output and the FireWire input/output next to it. I guess you do learn new things everyday. I was just wondering how the picture looked hooked up through the ANT-DTV instead of DVI or component. I'll try to remember to reference coax separately to keep any confusion to a minimum.
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post #12540 of 12603 Old 07-17-2014, 12:55 AM
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This will do (among many other things) Toslink in and Firewire out.

WEISS DAC202 FIREWIRE D/A CONVERTER
Yes it will do it, and at a entry level cost of $6,966.00, for it to do so!

http://www.kosmic.us/weiss-dac-202.html
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