Don't dump your CRT RPTV! - Page 425 - AVS Forum
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post #12721 of 12741 Old 10-22-2014, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post
Are there 3 versions of 730? One with DVI, one with HDMI and one without either, with just component and RGB ins?

b
No.

PRO-730HD - 2 DVI inputs
PRO-730HDi - 2 HDMI inputs and RS-232 for ISF C3 calibration

One can look at the service manual and figure out whether swapping DVI board with HDMI board is a possibility.
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post #12722 of 12741 Old 10-22-2014, 12:49 PM
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Too bad. That "shiny black finish" - otherwise known as "gold trim piano black lacquer finish" is nowhere to be found these days, and would be hella expensive if you could find it. It was the primary difference between their Elite line of HDreadys and their regular HDready stuff, for which the electronics inside was virtually identical. It is the signature design look of all the Pioneer Elite components, audio and video, from way back when to today, and has been for decades. Furniture has been designed around it, some of which you have. It is classy, classic and a highly respected sign of superb quality in audio/videophile circles.


b
BTW Elites had different lenticular screen from non-Elite variants.
0.52 mm Ultra-Fine Pitch & True Black on Elites (ignore the info about the inputs, 730HDi had 2 HDMI ports).
0.72mm Fine Pitch Lenticular Screen on non-Elites

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post #12723 of 12741 Old 10-22-2014, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Huh.

Oh well, they look the same at 8' after one of my calibrations.

b

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post #12724 of 12741 Old 10-22-2014, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpaxadpom View Post
No.

PRO-730HD - 2 DVI inputs
PRO-730HDi - 2 HDMI inputs and RS-232 for ISF C3 calibration

One can look at the service manual and figure out whether swapping DVI board with HDMI board is a possibility.
So the HD (non-HDi) had DVI's, as I suspected.

Therefore all that remains to be seen is if that DVI connection will allow owner to use his Color and Tint. On RGB input those are not alterable in User menu. If the DVI input allows it, then you can get a simple DVI to HDMI adapter and feed it in that way, from your HDMI output. Even if it does not allow you to alter your Color and Tint when using the DVI input, could be that since it's locked into the color and tint settings your source is putting out, you may not want to alter them anyway.

Either way you're not locked into using component-only for HD content with the HD set, rather than the HDi set. Either one will allow for 2 ways to get your HD content to your screen. One ocmponent and HDMI, the other component and DVI.

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post #12725 of 12741 Old 10-22-2014, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post
So the HD (non-HDi) had DVI's, as I suspected.

Therefore all that remains to be seen is if that DVI connection will allow owner to use his Color and Tint. On RGB input those are not alterable in User menu. If the DVI input allows it, then you can get a simple DVI to HDMI adapter and feed it in that way, from your HDMI output. Even if it does not allow you to alter your Color and Tint when using the DVI input, could be that since it's locked into the color and tint settings your source is putting out, you may not want to alter them anyway.

Either way you're not locked into using component-only for HD content with the HD set, rather than the HDi set. Either one will allow for 2 ways to get your HD content to your screen. One ocmponent and HDMI, the other component and DVI.

b
Bob, you don't loose color/tint controls with RGB signal over DVI. You loose sharpness when Pure Video is enabled and only when it is enabled. With analog RGB D-sub 15 input you loose color/tint and sharpness controls (color decoder disabled?). I may have test results of calibration saved somewhere when I was experimenting with Pure Video ON/OFF. I may run another round of calibration when I am in the mood probably after my next optics cleaning session.
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post #12726 of 12741 Old 10-22-2014, 07:09 PM
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Need a little help.........working on a Pioneer SD-533HD5.

GETTING YELLOW TINT for a FEW MINUTES after turning set on on all inputs.

From what I have read that would be a lack of blue. I have a complete extra tv for parts.

You guys think a cold solder joint on the blue gun or the gun itself ? I am fully capable

of resoldering it..............what you guys think is the problem ?

Thanks for any ideas................
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post #12727 of 12741 Old 10-22-2014, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Jetmeck View Post
Need a little help.........working on a Pioneer SD-533HD5.

GETTING YELLOW TINT for a FEW MINUTES after turning set on on all inputs.

From what I have read that would be a lack of blue. I have a complete extra tv for parts.

You guys think a cold solder joint on the blue gun or the gun itself ? I am fully capable

of resoldering it..............what you guys think is the problem ?

Thanks for any ideas................
You can try to display pure blue image and see if your blue gun works. Alternatively you can go to service menu convergence screen and disable red and green guns. You should see blue convergence grid.
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post #12728 of 12741 Old 10-22-2014, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetmeck View Post
Need a little help.........working on a Pioneer SD-533HD5.

GETTING YELLOW TINT for a FEW MINUTES after turning set on on all inputs.

From what I have read that would be a lack of blue. I have a complete extra tv for parts.

You guys think a cold solder joint on the blue gun or the gun itself ? I am fully capable

of resoldering it..............what you guys think is the problem ?

Thanks for any ideas................
I think that's a good guess, it certainly sounds like a thermal. I would definitely check the blue CRT board for cold solder joints. If no fault found there, maybe check the earlier-on blue circuitry for them.

With a spare set you could swap out all kinds of parts until you found the culprit. But I like your idea best for opening volley.

b

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Last edited by Mr Bob; 10-22-2014 at 09:01 PM.
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post #12729 of 12741 Old 10-23-2014, 10:00 AM
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Is this new?

http://www.hdfury.com/turn-hdfury4-i...werful-scaler/

This is a firmware upgrade which permits many different scaling options (and more to come) with the HD Fury 4.

By the way, the HD Fury 4 is capable of doing everything the HD Fury 3 does, right? That is, taking any HDMI source in the US and outputting to HD 1080i component.
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post #12730 of 12741 Old 10-23-2014, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Nothing before the 4 changes scanrates, so the 3 would keep whatever scanrate has been sent to it. If you send it 1080i HDMI, you'll get 1080i component or RGBHV out of it.

b

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post #12731 of 12741 Old 10-23-2014, 04:50 PM
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Hdfury 4 scaling firmware is at least a year old.. It would probably be cheaper and have much more options for picture controls and overscan reduction to pick up a used scaler either DVDO or Lumagen and hook it up to the DVI port on your 813 and scale everything to 1080i that needs it.
I have my bluray player set to output at 1080p@24, Xbox 360 output at 1080p, cable set to native so 480i content and 1080i content output Depending on channel all sent to my DVDO edge via HDMI and a computer outputting VGA from a Dsub 15 to RGBHV conversion cable all being scaled up or down to 1080i and sent to my 813 over the 1 DVI input we have.

In my opinion the pictures from both of my bluray players a Sony 380s and a Panasonic BD-35 set to 1080i look very good. But look better being scaled down from 1080p@24 by the DVDO edge. Plus the overscan reduction is a big plus.

Although Overscan reduction done this way does not use more of the CRT face or tighten up the picture like Mr.Bob would reducing the overscan via the SM you just see the whole picture.
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post #12732 of 12741 Old 10-23-2014, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Turnbough View Post
Overscan reduction done this way does not use more of the CRT face or tighten up the picture like Mr.Bob would reducing the overscan via the SM you just see the whole picture.
Shimming is required to utilize more crt face. Without shimming overscan reduction in service menu utilizes less crt face than you started with. Personally I have not done shimming on my set. I reduced oversan to 5% all around and reduced additional 5% on my pc.

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post #12733 of 12741 Old 10-24-2014, 10:41 AM
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Thanks or the clarification. I've been reading through the thread and I'm in the 2009 posts where there is a ton on talk about the shimming op so the info just blurred together. Thanks again
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post #12734 of 12741 Old 10-27-2014, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Actually, reducing the overscan via the height and width controls ONLY, then correcting the mess to absolute coherency again (or doing the same thing via a processor) does not reduce the amount of screen face SEEN. It only reduces the amount of screen face IN PLAY. The same amount of screen face as always hits the visible part of your viewscreen if no shimming gets done.

What changes is the amount of screen face getting content sent to it.

When you reduce the overscan without shimming, parts of the inside of your optical cavity that have for years been getting content that never gets seen on your viewscreen, no longer get that part of the image. Where you might have had 2" all around that uselessly hit the black insides around the screen's edge of your cavity rather than your viewscreen, once you reduce your overscan via sm only, those sections no longer get hit uselessly; what used to be there now hits your viewscreen so you can see it, finally. Yes it uses less of your CRT screen face to do it that way, but what your viewscreen sees is what it has always seen of the amount of the screen face that's been always visible to it. That does not change.

What does change is your aging footprint, which is actually irrelevant but still worth mentioning. Now that you have changed the size of the image on your screen to reduce the overscan, a smaller image will be showing on your CRTs for the rest of their life. You'll never see that on your viewscreen, but it will be taking place on your tube faces from then on. 2 sets of aging footprint rather than 1. Which won't impinge on what you see on your viewscreens in the least, because those areas will still be hidden from your view.

The only way to get more of your CRT faces IN PLAY is to keep the image size where it is, using as much screen face as your present overscan will allow, and do the shimming op. If your set were new you could actually possibly expand the amount of screen face in play AND being seen, by doing the shimming op and then seeing if your guns are aimed correctly and if there is any screen face usable but not in play, and wind up truly using more screen face than originally set up at the factory. I did that with my Mit 73" while she was still new enough to not have any visible aging footprint yet. But that ship has sailed on any CRT RPTV with normal usage by this time, including mine.

Whether done in service menu or by a scaler/processor tho, the amount of pixels that gets shown with overscan reduction that were not showing before increases greatly with overscan reduction, whether you recapture more of your CRT screen faces or not. Whether done by a processor or in sm, this increases your resolution significantly, as those previously unseen pixels get jammed together in there beside the others that have always been seen, shoving them over and pushing them much more tightly together than before, all around. The result is an overall picture with a much more dense pixel pack, affecting 100% of what you see on your viewscreen. This alone is forever worth the effort later, as the years go by and you've enjoyed your set tons more at all times because of it. If you have ever noticed your pic get significantly looser when you use your remote to zoom in on any particular scene, you have already seen the converse of what I am talking about.

The only difference between doing it in the sm vs. doing it with a processor is the amount of work involved. With a processor you resize and you're done. Doing it strictly in service menu involves correcting how seriously your pic gets hosed by the resizing, which can take additional hours. Either way, the amount of actual CRT screen face being projected to the viewscreen does not change because nothing mechanical changed.


Shimming is still the only way to expand how much of the CRT screen face gets seen by the viewscreen and thus increases the depth of your images. Chances are, with re-aiming of the guns when necessary, it can still be done on most of the sets still being enjoyed out there. Reducing the overscan via either the H and W registers in the service menu or a Lumagen or DVDO, keeps exactly the same amount of CRT screen face available to be seen by/projected to the viewscreen as it always has. But again, well worth doing.

The only way to change that is mechanically.



b

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Last edited by Mr Bob; 10-27-2014 at 07:37 AM.
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post #12735 of 12741 Old 10-27-2014, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
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Actually, reducing the overscan via the height and width controls ONLY, then correcting the mess to absolute coherency again (or doing the same thing via a processor) does not reduce the amount of screen face SEEN. It only reduces the amount of screen face IN PLAY. The same amount of screen face as always hits the visible part of your viewscreen if no shimming gets done.

What changes is the amount of screen face getting content sent to it.

When you reduce the overscan without shimming, parts of the inside of your optical cavity that have for years been getting content that never gets seen on your viewscreen, no longer get that part of the image. Where you might have had 2" all around that uselessly hit the black insides around the screen's edge of your cavity rather than your viewscreen, once you reduce your overscan via sm only, those sections no longer get hit uselessly; what used to be there now hits your viewscreen so you can see it, finally. Yes it uses less of your CRT screen face to do it that way, but what your viewscreen sees is what it has always seen of the amount of the screen face that's been always visible to it. That does not change.

What does change is your aging footprint, which is actually irrelevant but still worth mentioning. Now that you have changed the size of the image on your screen to reduce the overscan, a smaller image will be showing on your CRTs for the rest of their life. You'll never see that on your viewscreen, but it will be taking place on your tube faces from then on. 2 sets of aging footprint rather than 1. Which won't impinge on what you see on your viewscreens in the least, because those areas will still be hidden from your view.

The only way to get more of your CRT faces IN PLAY is to keep the image size where it is, using as much screen face as your present overscan will allow, and do the shimming op. If your set were new you could actually possibly expand the amount of screen face in play AND being seen, by doing the shimming op and then seeing if your guns are aimed correctly and if there is any screen face usable but not in play, and wind up truly using more screen face than originally set up at the factory. I did that with my Mit 73" while she was still new enough to not have any visible aging footprint yet. But that ship has sailed on any CRT RPTV with normal usage by this time, including mine.

Whether done in service menu or by a scaler/processor tho, the amount of pixels that gets shown with overscan reduction that were not showing before increases greatly with overscan reduction, whether you recapture more of your CRT screen faces or not. Whether done by a processor or in sm, this increases your resolution significantly, as those previously unseen pixels get jammed together in there beside the others that have always been seen, shoving them over and pushing them much more tightly together than before, all around. The result is an overall picture with a much more dense pixel pack, affecting 100% of what you see on your viewscreen. This alone is forever worth the effort later, as the years go by and you've enjoyed your set tons more at all times because of it. If you have ever noticed your pic get significantly looser when you use your remote to zoom in on any particular scene, you have already seen the converse of what I am talking about.

The only difference between doing it in the sm vs. doing it with a processor is the amount of work involved. With a processor you resize and you're done. Doing it strictly in service menu involves correcting how seriously your pic gets hosed by the resizing, which can take additional hours. Either way, the amount of actual CRT screen face being projected to the viewscreen does not change because nothing mechanical changed.


Shimming is still the only way to expand how much of the CRT screen face gets seen by the viewscreen and thus increases the depth of your images. Chances are, with re-aiming of the guns when necessary, it can still be done on most of the sets still being enjoyed out there. Reducing the overscan via either the H and W registers in the service menu or a Lumagen or DVDO, keeps exactly the same amount of CRT screen face available to be seen by/projected to the viewscreen as it always has. But again, well worth doing.

The only way to change that is mechanically.



b
Bob, when you reduce overscan with scaler/processor you are actually reducing the resolution of the original image to fill the entire screen. Let me give you an example, assume you start off with 1920x1080 frame (let's not get into interlace vs progressive discussion here). If the image is perfectly centered on all 3 guns and you have 2.5% overscan all the way around the scaler will scale the frame to 1824x1026 and add black boarders all around (in simple terms). Basically you have a frame within a frame. Now CRT RPTV have their own limitations as far as how many lines they can resolve (color or b/w). Since you are feeding the same signal 1920x1080 the overall resolution doesn't change you simply rescale the image to fill the entire screen (reduce the size of the image).

I don't know enough about processes involve when image size is changed in SM so I cannot comment here. Potentially if CRT's had no problem resolving 1920x1080 when utilizing smaller surface area of CRT then you can have higher perceived resolution (pixel density of image projected on the screen). Shimming will utilize more CRT face therefore improve the "pixel density".
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post #12736 of 12741 Old 10-27-2014, 06:48 PM - Thread Starter
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You are absolutely right! the view screen will have the same number of pixels on it whether a scalar is involved or not in reducing that overscan.

The only way more pixels will show on the view screen is if height and width are altered in service menu. The only way more of the screen faces will show on the view screen is the shimming op.

B
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post #12737 of 12741 Old 10-30-2014, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post
I think that's a good guess, it certainly sounds like a thermal. I would definitely check the blue CRT board for cold solder joints. If no fault found there, maybe check the earlier-on blue circuitry for them.

With a spare set you could swap out all kinds of parts until you found the culprit. But I like your idea best for opening volley.

b
Guys,

The green gun as well as the blue now are both having issues for 4-5 minutes. Now have a red tint for a few minutes, then pic returns to normal. So obviously not the blue guns circuitry. Where should I start and whats common to both the blue and green guns and and could cause a yellow tint which was the first issue and now a red tint ?

Thanks for any ideas ?
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post #12738 of 12741 Old 10-30-2014, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
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A yellow tint is the lack of just the blue. A red tint would be lack of blue and green. A magenta tint would be the lack of just the green.

If red, then both the green and blue guns seem to be dropping out for that 4-5 minutes. If magenta, then just the green would be dropping out.

At any time during that time does it go to a magenta tint? A yellow tint? A green tint?

The important thing is to know your corollary colors in case 2 colors are dropping out at the same time during this event, and not just one.

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post #12739 of 12741 Old 10-30-2014, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UofAZ1 View Post
I have a Pioneer 620 58" and after adding a cheap DVDO VP30 to reduce overscan (eBay 125.00). And proper calibration and with Mr. Bobs on the phone deep optics cleaning assistance my 13 year old Pioneer has a picture as nice as my plasma and LED TV but without the issue of pixcellation like current flat screens have. Also Infinate black level and a beautiful piano black outside big enough to hold my very large center channel speaker.
If you want even a better Picture Quality with your set pick up a HDFury 3 & turn on the Enhanced Colour Depth which in order to
provide a more dynamic picture. I notice a BIG Difference in my Pioneer Elite Pro 710 HD Picture Quality with Mine.

I also have a DVDO VP 30 to reduce overscan too.
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post #12740 of 12741 Old Yesterday, 09:07 AM
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Bob:

I sent you a PM.
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post #12741 of 12741 Old Yesterday, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Just answered. Thanks so much for all the work you're doing on trying to find me a glass mirror for my 73", now that they no longer even sell replacements for my mylar!



b

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