Don't dump your CRT RPTV! - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 12592 Old 07-08-2006, 02:15 PM
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Ballz, SSE is silk-screen Effect, and is and can be an issue with LCOS-based displays.

Trackman, you can get a CRT RPTV with HDMI/DVI, and the lifespan of the CRT itself is determined by how hard it's driven. Keeping contrast and brightness at reasonable levels will ensure thousands and thousands of hours of use.

Regarding depth and dimensionality, for me that comes from the nearly limitless contrast ratio that CRT and it's ability to produce black provides. However, I think I understand what you mean with plasmas in that regard.

Steve
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post #122 of 12592 Old 07-08-2006, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssj2 View Post

Ballz, SSE is silk-screen Effect, and is and can be an issue with LCOS-based displays.

Trackman, you can get a CRT RPTV with HDMI/DVI, and the lifespan of the CRT itself is determined by how hard it's driven. Keeping contrast and brightness at reasonable levels will ensure thousands and thousands of hours of use.

Regarding depth and dimensionality, for me that comes from the nearly limitless contrast ratio that CRT and it's ability to produce black provides. However, I think I understand what you mean with plasmas in that regard.

SSE is not exclusive to LCOS displays, its apparent on all projection technologies, and our set, the F59, seems to be a pretty bad offender of it.

mabey its because i sit closer to my set then most

Or mabey people explained it to me wrong, but i was told SSE is the sparkling dots on the tv, easily seen in bright areas(and i do, bright white images and the worst is bright red)
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post #123 of 12592 Old 07-08-2006, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Trackman View Post

3. Generally, the bigger the crts, the shorter the lifespan - I may get another 2-3 years out of it before one goes.


I beg to differ on this one.

I have been repairing and calibrating CRT RPTVs for over 20 years, and from my hands-on experience I can tell you, having a CRT go out is absolutely the rarest thing I've ever seen in CRT technology. People always say, whenever their sets go down, "Do you think it's the picture tube???"




No, it's not, not unless it's the exception. Not saying it doesn't happen, but of those few that have gone down, most have been resurrected - permanently - via a process called rejuvenation, using either a Beltron or a Sencore CRT rejuvenator. I just saved one Wednesday - the blue CRT in a Sony HDready that was 4 years old. Cost the customer way less than replacing the gun would have.

The incidence of a CRT going down, whether it's DV or triple-gun, is insignificantly low, and this has absolutely nothing to do with their size.

And if a flat panel TV goes down, be it plasma or LCD - can't comment on SED yet, it's really not out yet - you don't WANT to know how much repairing that will cost! Suffice it to say that every 3 years if ANYTHING goes wrong with its panel you may as well buy a new one, because repairing it automatically totals it. Replacing a single gun on a triple gun CRT RPTV is infinitely cheaper, believe me!


I have been called in to repair - AND calibrate - 18 year old Mits's, and after the entire regimen has been completed and we are sitting back watching some video, I once had one guy look directly at me, turn back to the set, then turn back to me and say, "That looks like the day I bought it 18 years ago."


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post #124 of 12592 Old 07-08-2006, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballz2TheWallz View Post


Or mabey people explained it to me wrong, but i was told SSE is the sparkling dots on the tv, easily seen in bright areas(and i do, bright white images and the worst is bright red)

You sure you don't have the contrast too high, causing white crush in the brightest areas?

On Pioneers, sparkling can be cured by working with the Sharpness and Detail regs in the sm.


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post #125 of 12592 Old 07-08-2006, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

You sure you don't have the contrast too high, causing white crush in the brightest areas?

On Pioneers, sparkling can be cured by working with the Sharpness and Detail regs in the sm.


Mr Bob

No, its just the screen stack itself...its there at all contrast and brightness levels, my last set masked it somewhat with the protective screen but it was still there on reds

I see it on everything but dark colors, faces its quite easy to spot.
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post #126 of 12592 Old 07-08-2006, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballz2TheWallz View Post

No, its just the screen stack itself...its there at all contrast and brightness levels, my last set masked it somewhat with the protective screen but it was still there on reds

I see it on everything but dark colors, faces its quite easy to spot.


If its' what I think you are talking about, I see it much worse on DLPs than I ever have on triple gun CRTs. On triple gun CRTs it's entirely negligible, to me.


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post #127 of 12592 Old 07-08-2006, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

If its' what I think you are talking about, I see it much worse on DLPs than I ever have on triple gun CRTs. On triple gun CRTs it's entirely negligible, to me.


Mr Bob

Thats odd because I've never noticed it on the instore DLPs and SXRD's, only on these hitachis
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post #128 of 12592 Old 07-08-2006, 03:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

With all the hoopla around the new fixed pixel units - which is all we hear about these days and which of course is just what their manufacturers want, considering how expensive they are - it's easy to lose sight of tried and true triple-gun CRT technology.

IMHO, it is still the best. It still has the best blacks, it does 1080i effortlessly, (and could do 1080p just as well), and the color range and depth when properly set up and calibrated has always been thrilling. And size? When fully calibrated, it allows for viewers to sit far closer than most fixed pixel technology, delivering an essentially BIGGER picture to be watching, and losing yourself in. Isn't that really what it's all about?

Try to sit that close to fixed pixel technology and much of the time you are staring individual pixels in the face, with massive screendoor effect. CRT is the only medium where its smoothness and yet incredibly high resolution contributes to exquisite detail, without the artificial crispness of most of today's fixed pixel technologies.


Yet videophiles right and left are abandoning their CRT RPTVs in favor of the newer fixed pixel stuff. It's saddening. They have no idea what they are losing. CRT RPTVs can be kept looking better than new for 10-15 years when treated right. And produce better images, all that time, than most fixed pixel technology.

Both Pioneer and Hitachi have already discontinued CRT RPTV production. At CES this year I saw NO CRT technology being promoted. Yet it is still the best easily available technolgy out there, and these days the absolutely cheapest way to go as well. CRT RPTVs are the deal of the century right now, if you check on comparative prices, even factoring in calibrations.

Pioneer Elite owners seem to be the ones most willing to keep their sets alive, possibly because they paid so much for them back in the day. Other brands of set were cheaper and are even cheaper still now, causing their owners to more often than not just step into something new rather than keep their current sets alive. Yet ALL CRT sets can be made to look stunning, with the proper care and maintenance of professional optics cleaning and calibration. Even the cheapest brand has incredible potential, when treated properly.


I hope more people will see the light on this before it's taken away. More and more manufacturers will continue to discontinue CRT technology, its days are numbered. We should hold on for dear life, because once they are gone, they are gone. I for one will not part with my year 2000 65" Panasonic CRT RPTV. They will have to pry it out of my cold, dead hands!

If you have a triple-gun CRT RPTV, PLEASE reconsider if you are about to kiss it off. It's still the best way to go, once calibrated.

And calibration is a whole lot cheaper than buying and paying taxes on a new fixed pixel set.


Mr Bob

I have no interest in dumping my 53" Pioneer Elite CRT RP. It was the last model before Pioneer went out of the RP business. It supports HDMI and 1081i. Great TV and great picture.
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post #129 of 12592 Old 07-08-2006, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballz2TheWallz View Post

SSE is not exclusive to LCOS displays, its apparent on all projection technologies...

You're right, my bad.

Steve
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post #130 of 12592 Old 07-08-2006, 05:21 PM
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My CRT-RPTV screen's picture looks just like a film screen, in the middle of the day even, with better brightness and contrast. PS, never see any SSE. Seen it on plenty of other sets. It definately has to do with the type and quality of the screen and I believe the distance from the screen- bigger is better in order to sit farther away. I'm 15' from mine. The Qualia 006 has a glass protective screen to lessen it (talk about replacing one problem with another- reflections and glare, I'd take the SSE), mine has nothing in front of the lenticular screen.
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post #131 of 12592 Old 07-08-2006, 06:29 PM
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Mr Bob

I have a toshiba 57hdx82 and can get my hands on a pioneer elite 730. Will I see improvement in PQ with the pioneer elite in HD and HD DVD/ BLU RAY vs the toshiba .

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post #132 of 12592 Old 07-08-2006, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssj2 View Post

Ballz, SSE is silk-screen Effect, and is and can be an issue with LCOS-based displays.

Trackman, you can get a CRT RPTV with HDMI/DVI, and the lifespan of the CRT itself is determined by how hard it's driven. Keeping contrast and brightness at reasonable levels will ensure thousands and thousands of hours of use.

Regarding depth and dimensionality, for me that comes from the nearly limitless contrast ratio that CRT and it's ability to produce black provides. However, I think I understand what you mean with plasmas in that regard.

Thanks for the info re HDMI on the newer sets - too bad Pio doesn't still make them.

I agree with you re the depth that high contrast gives, which is why I prefer crts to dlps. Like you said though, the kind of depth you get with plasma is different - somehow the image looks more real - like I'm looking through a window. No matter how good a projected image is, it still seems like an image, whereas plasma appears to be creating an internal world of its own. R. Harkness describes this much better than I can.

Go Duke !
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post #133 of 12592 Old 07-08-2006, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

I beg to differ on this one.

I have been repairing and calibrating CRT RPTVs for over 20 years, and from my hands-on experience I can tell you, having a CRT go out is absolutely the rarest thing I've ever seen in CRT technology. People always say, whenever their sets go down, "Do you think it's the picture tube???"




No, it's not, not unless it's the exception. Not saying it doesn't happen, but of those few that have gone down, most have been resurrected - permanently - via a process called rejuvenation, using either a Beltron or a Sencore CRT rejuvenator. I just saved one Wednesday - the blue CRT in a Sony HDready that was 4 years old. Cost the customer way less than replacing the gun would have.

The incidence of a CRT going down, whether it's DV or triple-gun, is insignificantly low, and this has absolutely nothing to do with their size.

And if a flat panel TV goes down, be it plasma or LCD - can't comment on SED yet, it's really not out yet - you don't WANT to know how much repairing that will cost! Suffice it to say that every 3 years if ANYTHING goes wrong with its panel you may as well buy a new one, because repairing it automatically totals it. Replacing a single gun on a triple gun CRT RPTV is infinitely cheaper, believe me!


I have been called in to repair - AND calibrate - 18 year old Mits's, and after the entire regimen has been completed and we are sitting back watching some video, I once had one guy look directly at me, turn back to the set, then turn back to me and say, "That looks like the day I bought it 18 years ago."


Mr Bob

I gladly stand corrected and educated, Mr. Bob. If mine goes down and I keep it, I'll give you a call! Of course, you are right re plasma being inoperable if it gets screwed up, but there is little to go wrong with a plasma set (relatively speaking), right? Also, NECs have a 3 year warranty.

Go Duke !
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post #134 of 12592 Old 07-09-2006, 06:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsil View Post

Mr Bob

I have a toshiba 57hdx82 and can get my hands on a pioneer elite 730. Will I see improvement in PQ with the pioneer elite in HD and HD DVD/ BLU RAY vs the toshiba .


Yes, the Pioneer Elite's were considering one of the best CRT RP's you could buy.
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post #135 of 12592 Old 07-10-2006, 12:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsil View Post

Mr Bob

I have a toshiba 57hdx82 and can get my hands on a pioneer elite 730. Will I see improvement in PQ with the pioneer elite in HD and HD DVD/ BLU RAY vs the toshiba .


Most definitely, once fully calibrated. Toshiba is basically at the bottom of the half dozen brands I recommend most.

The 730 is head and shoulders above any Toshiba. The huge difference in pricing alone tells you that, but having calibrated many of both, I can also say it from experience.

The Tosh is great if you absolutely have to go for the least expensive stuff. And in that arena it will show a great pic, once fully calibrated. Runco had it as its flagship RPTV back in the day, after serious reworking of lots of its electronics to Runco standards. But that's where the congrats end. And that is not the only reason to prefer a Pio over a Tosh.

If you ever have a shutdown on a Tosh HDready, be willing to be without your home theater for a couple of weeks minimum, during the repair. I've seen it take months to get one fixed. With Mits and Pioneer, I am usually out of there with a fully fixed TV in a day, and pitching the owners on calibration.

Tosh has one of the worst reps for reliability in the bigscreen repair industry. Aside from convergence repairs, which I will perform on any brand, I will not touch a Tosh in the field that has gone down.

Hop on that 730. You cain't get 'em no more! There will never be a 740, the Elites are permanently disco'd.


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post #136 of 12592 Old 07-10-2006, 12:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackman View Post

but there is little to go wrong with a plasma set (relatively speaking), right?


Have you any idea how many boards are in a plasma??? They line up against each other, board after board, all along the back of the set.

Plenty to go wrong on a plasma even aside from the panel going bad, which is the really chief baddie.


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post #137 of 12592 Old 07-10-2006, 08:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballz2TheWallz View Post

My CRTRP has a serious SSE issue.......

When I had my Mits Diamond 55813 (which I still mourn no longer owning) I never seen any SSE. When I purchased a JVC D-ILA 1080p set, there was SSE of all over place.

Take from me, don't sell your CRT for a microdisplay, wait until the new technologies truly surpass CRT in all areas of PQ. I currently own a Vizio plasma, no SSE, although it has other problems, presents a picture that reminds me more of CRT than some of the other displays I have gone through.
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post #138 of 12592 Old 07-10-2006, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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When I had my Mits Diamond 55813 (which I still mourn no longer owning)


We coulda had SO much fun with your 813!



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post #139 of 12592 Old 07-10-2006, 09:54 AM
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Bob,

Just out of curiousity, if you had to recommend a digital display, which would it be?

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post #140 of 12592 Old 07-10-2006, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Bob,

Just out of curiousity, if you had to recommend a digital display, which would it be?


SED. But it's not really out yet. It is electron gun/phosphor technology, but taken to the next level, that of flat screen. Every pixel has its own electron gun and phosphor set. It'll probably be ferociously expensive out of the starting gate.

Probably SXRD, tho you need to keep on top of whether the one you got is fully and correctly aligned. It's triple-panel technology with no user convergence allowed. Same as LCOS, which is also pretty impressive. But I have seen lots of triple-panel fixed pixels out there misaligned much more than I would ever allow, including Runcos.

I would not trifle with 720p on any fixed pixel technology, myself, if I were using it for home cinema. 1080i/p only.

But lots of fixed pixel 1080p displays still have loads of dithering. Home Theater Magazine did a cover story on that, recently. Go there to find out which brands scored best.


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post #141 of 12592 Old 07-10-2006, 12:05 PM
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Mr Bob, you have inspired me BIGTIME!

I have been struggling for the last two months over which plasma to get, 720p now, 1080p later, are the higher end sets really worth the cost, etc.....

I am now going CRT for the living room while I wait for price drops on the upcoming
1080p digital sets. I can always buy digital later and stick the CRT in the bedroom.

What do you think of this set, I figure for 899.00 you can't really go wrong.

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Hitac...oductDetail.do

Also, any idea how many hours will this thing last?
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post #142 of 12592 Old 07-10-2006, 12:20 PM
 
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Quote:
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That's right. Next time there is a dark scene in your local mall's film-based theater, watch for the lack of total black.

That's where CRT technology is better even than film. It can go totally black. Which is unfortunately useless when showing a film-based movie, which is shot on film...

HD SHOT and displayed movies are better than film because of the lack of scratch marks, dots in the corner during reel changes, paled-out/aged film copy transfers... now when DLP movie projectors finally get true blacks, they will have that going for them as well.


Mr Bob

I just wanted to state that I think it's a significant advantage to be able to go completely black, and that it is not at all useless when showing content, be it video based OR film-based. We've had this discussion a few times in the 3.5K plus forum and the CRT FP forum a few times, and I think it's quite a legitimate advantage. When dealing with limitations, yes film does have limitations here, but great film prints can go very black, a lot blacker than digital displays can, even though we rarely ever have a chance to see film presentations like this. However, we must also pay attention that in terms of video standards, video black calls for 0 luminance, and one should also consider that if a director goes to a full black frame, does he really intend it to be an elevated film gray, or as black as he can possibly get? Should the blackout in finding nemo be gray, or where-is-the-screen black? I think for all of these reasons, I would say that higher on/off CR is desireable and advantageously so even as it surpasses your average or even high-quality flim print.

Film is something that we should attempt to recreate as much as we can in places where we have a deficit, but where it also can be exceeded, in many cases (and very much so with black I very much think it is advantageous to do so.
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post #143 of 12592 Old 07-11-2006, 03:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlfromcanada View Post

Mr Bob, you have inspired me BIGTIME!

I have been struggling for the last two months over which plasma to get, 720p now, 1080p later, are the higher end sets really worth the cost, etc.....

I am now going CRT for the living room while I wait for price drops on the upcoming
1080p digital sets. I can always buy digital later and stick the CRT in the bedroom.

What do you think of this set, I figure for 899.00 you can't really go wrong.

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Hitac...oductDetail.do

Also, any idea how many hours will this thing last?


Have you any idea how ridiculously LOW that price is??? It used to cost $4000 for a set like that. Even factoring in a calibration, you're WAY ahead on the price/value continuum on that one!

And anyone who thinks that since a set costs so little, why spend the cost of the set on a calibration - well, your brain and mine just work different, I guess. The way I look at it, you've got around $3000 more to spend on improvements on that puppy - the tune-up (calibration) that elevates if from a consumer grade Joe Sixpack set to a videophile's wet dream - than those owners who preceeded you a few years ago, when it cost $4000.

Would you balk even more at spending between $500-1000 on a calibration if you had gotten it free??? If so you are clinging to your limitations, rather than recognizing your incredible good fortune for what it really is:

The deal of the century!

Hop on it! Under videophile conditions I can keep that set looking videophile grade and better than new for you for a minimum of 10 years, probably more like 15.

There is an incredible thread or 2 on the Hitachis on this board, and another one on the XBox board. Their owners are just incredibly in love with their sets.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...80#post7919180

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...68#post7932068

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...98#post7877998

http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread...74#post7686574


We need more videophiles out there like you!


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post #144 of 12592 Old 07-11-2006, 08:13 AM
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Thanks, I checked out the threads.

I'm going today to buy. I have to cross the border to get it, would cost 1840.00 CAD here, with tax/duties/exchange I'll end up paying 1231.00-1276.00CAD depending if I can pass it off as a PC monitor. I would have to pay hundreds just to get a stand for the
newer flat screens.

I'm also gonna buy this centre channel stand if in stock.

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/OmniM...oductDetail.do

The best part is when I finally get a 1080p tv I'll have a sweet set for the bedroom
also.
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post #145 of 12592 Old 07-11-2006, 08:29 AM
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One more thing Mr. Bob,

Should I get an HDMI cable and if so should I use it on the DVD or Cable Box?

The reason I ask is you mentioned that component cables work better on crt.
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post #146 of 12592 Old 07-11-2006, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by dlfromcanada View Post

One more thing Mr. Bob,

Should I get an HDMI cable and if so should I use it on the DVD or Cable Box?

The reason I ask is you mentioned that component cables work better on crt.

Use component...unless its a upscaling DVD player and you must use HDMI
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post #147 of 12592 Old 07-11-2006, 09:11 AM
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Use component...unless its a upscaling DVD player and you must use HDMI


I use upscaling DVD via component. Amazing PQ. But they are getting a bitharder to find but they are out there still at B&M stores, easier to find via web.
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post #148 of 12592 Old 07-11-2006, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballz2TheWallz View Post

Use component...unless its a upscaling DVD player and you must use HDMI


Right. On digital only, HDMI or DVI whenever you can use either DVI or HDMI, which are ID to each other except for the digital audio part of it.


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post #149 of 12592 Old 07-11-2006, 09:57 AM
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Right.

Mr Bob

Why? Cant see me getting a better PQ using HDMI. Please enlighten me
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post #150 of 12592 Old 07-11-2006, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I use upscaling DVD via component. Amazing PQ. But they are getting a bitharder to find but they are out there still at B&M stores, easier to find via web.


Great to know!





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