Don't dump your CRT RPTV! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 12493 Old 07-13-2006, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Do any B&Ms sell the Mits anymore? I only see the Hitachi.

call some local bestbuys, chances are they have some sitting around in the back or in the warehouse
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post #182 of 12493 Old 07-13-2006, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by kentd98 View Post

lol... poorly phrased question...

How about this.... what brands/models of CRT RPTVs are still in production?

the Sony i bought was from Brandsmart. although Sony discontinued it they still have a few left in stockpile.

model# KDP57WS655 for 57 inch or KDP51WS655 for 51 inch.

specs versus price the oppo 971 looks exceptional. (yes i am another convert)
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post #183 of 12493 Old 07-13-2006, 09:02 PM
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From what I understand, that Sony is the one to get right now. I almost got one, but ended up with a plasma for the bedroom.

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post #184 of 12493 Old 07-13-2006, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

So does my 65" Panny. Out of the box they need a lot of work and their pic is only so-so, but once fully calibrated there's not a better CRT RPTV pic out there than the Panny's.


Mr Bob


Mr Bob,

If you could please share some insight on Mitsubishi I would be very greatful. As always this just your personal opinion and nothing against any brand, they all look great-

Why would the Mitsubishi 65 inch screen with 9 inch guns not be the winner in pic quality? I've asked but never got an answer really on what the raster size is for these guns and if it's possible to tweak them up.
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post #185 of 12493 Old 07-23-2006, 10:42 PM
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I have a Samsung TXN3098WHF CRT that wouldnt mind having a tune up by a profesional. It also has some severe geometry distortion in 1080i. On average, what would it cost?
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post #186 of 12493 Old 07-23-2006, 10:46 PM
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Mr Bob and you explain why warping happens on the edges of the screen(mabey 8inches in from every side, I'm guessing lense warp?)
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post #187 of 12493 Old 07-24-2006, 12:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrock99 View Post

Mr Bob,

If you could please share some insight on Mitsubishi I would be very greatful. As always this just your personal opinion and nothing against any brand, they all look great-

Why would the Mitsubishi 65 inch screen with 9 inch guns not be the winner in pic quality? I've asked but never got an answer really on what the raster size is for these guns and if it's possible to tweak them up.


It's possible to tweak up any triple gun CRT, but some are designed with more supertweakup ability than others.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the Mits's have the most sophisticated convergence system out there, capable of nailing the convergence virtually all the way out to the edges and beyond, to superb viewing quality. There will still be a little feathering in the last inch or two on each side at some points, but this is unnoticeable without looking for it, which you never do when watching regular viewing material. Reducing the overscan - with its perks of not only revealing lost areas of picture, but also tightening up the resolution because of a denser pixel pack - is worth this slight accommodation/limitation.

Many of the horizontal lines can be completely nailed at each side edge using invisible points outside the viewed area, and others have to be averaged, as on one side they will go up at the end while on the other side they will go down. (No getting rid of that - but as I said above, this is unnoticeable in normal viewing.)

But for an overscan reduction down to 4-4.5%, taken in from the regular 6-7%, there is no RPTV convergence sys out there that can accomplish it better. Some of the newer models can even be sized down to 2% overscan. Both Zenith and the Philips/Marantz 65"ers had 9" guns, but I could never supertweak them all the way out to the edges.

I have not had the pleasure of supertweaking a Mit with 9" guns, only to play with one in one area of the screen at a store, so I have not seen the end result of supertweaking one. But I am sure it is fantastic.

The built-in red push can be all but eliminated with their new PerfectColor in user, which not only includes the 3 primaries, but also the 3 corrolary colors, for silky smooth color decoding. Not quite perfect, but definitely head and shoulders above not having anything there at all, and in most viewing instances every bit as good and true to life as perfection would have delivered.

In the first 2 Mit models of HDready, they had registers which could completely nail 100% linear color response, delivering 100% true to life color. In the 3rd year, the x7 series, all those juicy registers were gone, never to return on a universal basis, tho the ones with built in HD tuners continued to have at least the color decoder regs in there for another few years. The color isolators in the Video Chroma menu tho - which made linearizing the color decoding a fairly straightforward process, the first 2 years - went the big sayonora forever, in the x7 series, never to return. The convergence sm had color isolators that have stayed around, but that meant bouncing back and forth between the Video Chroma sm and the convergence sm, for your constant double-checks, from then on. Doable, just a lot more convoluted than straightforward.

After that, in the year of the x7 series - spurred on by the still persistent practice of Mit to install red push in their sets on all scanrates with no thought of how it at all times translated irrevocably into blue/green diminish when fleshtones were prioritized - intrepid computer guys who know much more about computers than I ever will, successfully hacked the I2C interface and started taking control of the programming of the eeproms WITHOUT service menu access. We again had control of our color decoding and could re-linearize out the blue/green diminish.

Mit was not happy. I had a conversation with George Palmer at CES a year or 2 later, where they and other brands had supplied big screens for the Sports Bar attraction, and it became pretty heated. He told me in no uncertain terms how pissed off Mit was that we had invaded their I2C bus, tho he was a gentleman enough not to use those exact words. But he was steamin'.

I finally told him that he was leaving the videophile out of the equation. That the only reason we did that was because Mits's are such damn fine sets, that we videophiles don't WANT our pictures trashed by red push.

He heard how fine we thought their sets were, and I think he finally started listening. We shook hands and parted company, both of us still steaming, but changes started to happen. The next time I talked with someone from Mit, they had brought PerfectColor out of just being in SD - where Joe Sixpack didn't even know about red push and could have cared less - and into 480p and HD, for us videophiles.

They also had come up with a de-interlacer for 480i that was Faroudja quality, and the new 65" with the 9" guns.

9" guns on a 65" screen give you just a slightly more spacious staging of the video material, more depth in the picture. Probably akin to hearing a slightly more spacious soundstage when listening to Mark Levinson audio compared to MacIntosh audio. Both superb, the one just a little more lifelike and spacious.

I saw this in both the Zenith and the Philips, but only in the center of the pic. As you got out to the edges, you'd start to lose it because of their limited convergence systems. My working with a small area of a 9" guns equipped 65" in a store really didn't impress me. Can't wait to see the full monty on a Mit, where it can be dialed in out past the edges of a 4-4.5% overscan.

9" guns on a 65" screen also give you 9/7 more light potential than 7" guns will.

Their electronics are also great. Not QUITE as good as Panny's, but still incredible.


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post #188 of 12493 Old 07-24-2006, 12:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZafierX View Post

I have a Samsung TXN3098WHF CRT that wouldnt mind having a tune up by a profesional. It also has some severe geometry distortion in 1080i. On average, what would it cost?



My basic cal package runs travel - $75/hr ground travel, and/or plane flights/shuttles - plus $485 for your primary scanrate, plus $285 for your secondary scanrate for the basic cal package. Which includes general optics cleaning, focusing via the Cantilever Technique (which I wrote), high precision convergence, grayscale and resetting of your color and tint user centers, plus playing with your Detail and Sharpness settings in sm if necessary, for the sharpest picture with the least amount of edge enhancement.

Deeper optics cleaning, if needed, is an extra which costs $150, and we have to do the regular optics cleaning before we'll know whether it needs the deeper. Reducing the overscan, if desired, costs $200 extra per scanrate on a Pioneer, only $150 extra on a Mit. Don't know yet on a Sammy, we'd have to play that one by ear. On Sony I didn't charge extra at all last time I did one, because reducing its overscan did not significantly hose the picture, like it does on both Mit and Pio.

Anyone who has an upconverting DVDP that OPs 1080i on component, like my LiteOn or the Momitsu 880, can save money by having only 1080i done, rather than both 1080i and 480i/p.


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post #189 of 12493 Old 07-24-2006, 12:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballz2TheWallz View Post

Mr Bob and you explain why warping happens on the edges of the screen(mabey 8inches in from every side, I'm guessing lense warp?)


I am assuming you are experiencing color separations as well, not just the intact pic doing this (which would indicate both hor and vert pincushioning).

This is the convergence sys breaking down. You have 3 guns, all aiming at the screen from different positions and so different angles. If the colors are separating, what you are seeing is most likely what happens from those different angles without any convergence correction at all.

It eventually happens on lots of CRT bigscreens, as that section is run pretty hard. But some are run harder than others, depending on how it is set up from the factory. I have seen some doozies out there in the Mit line, the point sys fighting the coarse sys all over the place, causing the ICs to run loads hotter than they need to. As a calibrator, I always make it a priority to correct that situation whenever I encounter it in one of my cals, relieving the unnecessary pressure in there.

It can be relatively simple, like cold solder joints, or pretty messy, like blown convergence generator, which fortunately is very rare. Usually it is blown convergence ICs.

If it's intermittent and you shut your set down immediately until fixed, chances are you can get away with resoldered conns at the ICs.

If you keep running it, however, in the bad condition, chances are you will damage those ICs and need them replaced. Whenever they are messing up they are not running within their design specs, and that causes undue stress on them.

I would always recommend replacing all if you are replacing one, even tho it would mean new reconvergence everywhere. If one is stressed out the other one may not be too long behind, and every time you open up your set for a repair, you are leaving it vulnerable. I do it for a living, and I could tell you stories that would curl your hair about how I would have made out like a bandit if I had not done that one, last little thing in there...



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post #190 of 12493 Old 07-24-2006, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

I am assuming you are experiencing color separations as well, not just the intact pic doing this (which would indicate both hor and vert pincushioning).

This is the convergence sys breaking down. You have 3 guns, all aiming at the screen from different positions and so different angles. If the colors are separating, what you are seeing is most likely what happens from those different angles without any convergence correction at all.

It eventually happens on lots of CRT bigscreens, as that section is run pretty hard. But some are run harder than others, depending on how it is set up from the factory. I have seen some doozies out there in the Mit line, the point sys fighting the coarse sys all over the place, causing the ICs to run loads hotter than they need to. As a calibrator, I always make it a priority to correct that situation whenever I encounter it in one of my cals, relieving the unnecessary pressure in there.

It can be relatively simple, like cold solder joints, or pretty messy, like blown convergence generator, which fortunately is very rare. Usually it is blown convergence ICs.

If it's intermittent and you shut your set down immediately until fixed, chances are you can get away with resoldered conns at the ICs.

If you keep running it, however, in the bad condition, chances are you will damage those ICs and need them replaced. Whenever they are messing up they are not running within their design specs, and that causes undue stress on them.

I would always recommend replacing all if you are replacing one, even tho it would mean new reconvergence everywhere. If one is stressed out the other one may not be too long behind, and every time you open up your set for a repair, you are leaving it vulnerable. I do it for a living, and I could tell you stories that would curl your hair about how I would have made out like a bandit if I had not done that one, last little thing in there...



Mr Bob

Jesus christ, I'm never buying a hitachi again , no color seperation, just a small shift(less then 1cm) on an exact spot on each side of the screen.

It is not pincushion......

I can only see it on the left and right side when there is a spinning camera scene(its really apparent) and only on the top and bottom when scrolling credits are on screen

Can't tell on the sides but on the top and bottom its not a gradual shift, its sudden which is why I don't think its fault of a geometrey issue
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post #191 of 12493 Old 07-24-2006, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ballz2TheWallz View Post

Mr Bob and you explain why warping happens on the edges of the screen(mabey 8inches in from every side, I'm guessing lense warp?)


Forgive me, but when you said warping happens on the edges of the screen (maybey 8" in from every side) I took that to mean that the edges had come in 8" from all sides.

From your most recent post, it seems that they have come in only 1 cm, not 8".

Guess I am not making out what you are trying to say. I'll let others take a shot at it.



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post #192 of 12493 Old 07-24-2006, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Forgive me, but when you said warping happens on the edges of the screen (mayby 8" in from every side) I took that to mean that the edges had come in 8" from all sides.

From your most recent post, it seems that they have come in only 1 cm, not 8".

Guess I am not making out what you are trying to say. I'll let others take a shot at it.



Mr Bob

I'll try to find a camera and record it happening on credits, its insanely hard to explain and I doubt its just my set that does it.
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post #193 of 12493 Old 07-28-2006, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

See my last post.

The only glarescreen I have ever seen that could not be removed was one series of the 40" Tosh, where it was glued in place. All others can be removed, and that is part of the extras I offer.


Mr Bob

So this post has me intrigued. I've been looking at LCD's and Plasmas for my girlfriends apartment (space concerns), but my own Panasonic PT-53TW53 has served me well for the past 2 years or so. I've done some of my own "calibration" at home, including venturing into the service menu for convergence and color decoding purposes and opening the set to Duvetyne and focus (optical and electrical) the set. I have yet to venture into the land of grayscale since I lack the equipment to make appropriate measurements.

One thing I attempted to do (unsuccessfully) was to remove the protective screen (glare screen) but it seemed to be kind of stuck together. I started to pull it apart, but it didn't seem like it was intended to be separated. Do you have any experience with this particular model? It's the same vintage as the WX53 series and mostly the same internally, but was the "Tau" model with better speakers and looked more like an X54 in terms of external design.

If I could get rid of that glare screen, I would be MUCH happier with my TV. Any other tips for calibrating this model would certainly not be turned down

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post #194 of 12493 Old 07-28-2006, 07:28 PM
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Mr Bob, I saw your comments from several posts up referring the 65" Mitsu with the 9" guns. Thanks so much for the feedback. I am shopping sets now and debating between the 73" mitsu with 9" guns and the MUCH cheaper 65" Hitachi (the new F59 series). Any thoughts on the difference in potential between these two sets after proper tweaking? By the way, the 73" is not the current 73", it is a year or two old. The one with DVI - dont recall the model off hand. I am somewhat of a newbie so very much interested in expert feedback!
thank you!
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post #195 of 12493 Old 07-28-2006, 07:45 PM
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From the service manual of the F59 series it would appear the 65" Hitachi uses the same 7" CRTs as the 51" & 57" models.

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post #196 of 12493 Old 07-28-2006, 08:25 PM
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Was that in response to me? Sorry if I was not clear. It is the 73" Mitsu with 9" guns compared with the 65" Hitachi F59 series with 7" guns. The guns are the same between the 3 F59 Hitachi sets so far as I know...
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post #197 of 12493 Old 07-29-2006, 05:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stook1 View Post

Mr Bob, I saw your comments from several posts up referring the 65" Mitsu with the 9" guns. Thanks so much for the feedback. I am shopping sets now and debating between the 73" mitsu with 9" guns and the MUCH cheaper 65" Hitachi (the new F59 series). Any thoughts on the difference in potential between these two sets after proper tweaking? By the way, the 73" is not the current 73", it is a year or two old. The one with DVI - dont recall the model off hand. I am somewhat of a newbie so very much interested in expert feedback!
thank you!


With a superb convergence system, fully tits'd out - see my comments a few posts back about that - a 65" with 9" guns will give you a brighter picture, and a more expansive, more 3D-like picture in terms of depth, than either a 73" with 9" guns, or a 65" with 7" guns. It's a matter of relative scale.

That's why when they went to HDready, they abolished 5" guns for HDready RPTVs, which many - if not nearly all - RPTVs had, at the time BEFORE HDreadys. Picture a 5" gun being used for a 73" HDready. Just too much projected magnification, it would microscopically fragment the detail.

That's why Barco makes a ceiling pj with 12" guns, which is used with the same set of sizes of screen as those with 8" and 9" guns.

It's huge...so huge that it comes in 2 pieces, with the actual pj only containing the guns themselves and a couple of relatively simple small circuit boards. The main electronics has it own entire box, the same size as the CRT box!


The Mit 73" CRT RPTV uses a mylar mirror, which I don't think is as good as a glass front surface mirror. I can see the reflection off the mylar appearing ON the mylar with the screen off, no matter what the size of mylar mirror, whereas I cannot see it bouncing off a freshly cleaned glass mirror with the screen off, no matter what its size. To my mind this affects the signal to noise ratio - the ability to achieve the best blacks available, relative to the whites. This translates directly to a set's depth perception ability, in dynamically lighted scenes.


I would get a 65" and simply sit proportionately closer. That's what I did when it was time for my purchase, in 2001. I was considering a Mit 73", but decided that sitting a little closer would save me about $3000, and have never regretted that decision. At 8' viewing distance, I get the same proportionate perceived picture size as at 10' away from a 73". (One has a ratio of 8 to 10 in viewing distances, while the other has a ratio of 7 to 9 in gun size. Not exactly the same, but close enough.)

The pic from a 7" CRT onto a 65" will be almost exactly the same as from a 9" gun onto a 73" screen, in terms of relative size, gun to screen. Do the math.

All things considered, in an ideal world I would have my 65" Panny be with 9" guns if they had offered it - they didn't, and never have - and it had the same features as my current one.

The Hit's main claim to fame these days is that its color decoder can be linearized 100%. If not perfect anymore, the Mits has PerfectColor, which is so near perfect that once linearized with the proper patterns, it would take special scenes - VERY fleeting, and few and far apart - to see any difference.


Just a note - linearizing the color decoding on DVD is fairly straightforward if you have one of the good test discs. Not so for HD.

For linearizing the the HD color decoding on ANY HDready, you need HD patterns, which usually only calibrators have the equipment to put up there. Linearizing HD color decoding, either in Hit's sm or with Mit's PerfectColor, it is one of the extras I offer in my calibrations. When I am done with your set, the color is silky smooth and ultra realistic, with true fleshtones along with vivid blues and greens at the same time (with red push you only get one or the other. You can't have both.)

True reality programming in action, with hypnotic suspension of disbelief thrown in for good measure.

After all, what good is D6500K if your color is still not right? For true suspension of disbelief you need both, as their hypnotic interplay is what you are looking for.


The convergence sys on the Hits is also not as good as on the Mits.

I would go with the Mit 65" with the 9" guns.


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post #198 of 12493 Old 07-29-2006, 08:27 AM
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With all the hoopla around the new fixed pixel units - which is all we hear about these days and which of course is just what their manufacturers want, considering how expensive they are - it's easy to lose sight of tried and true triple-gun CRT technology.

IMHO, it is still the best. It still has the best blacks, it does 1080i effortlessly, (and could do 1080p just as well), and the color range and depth when properly set up and calibrated has always been thrilling. And size? When fully calibrated, it allows for viewers to sit far closer than most fixed pixel technology, delivering an essentially BIGGER picture to be watching, and losing yourself in. Isn't that really what it's all about?

Try to sit that close to fixed pixel technology and much of the time you are staring individual pixels in the face, with massive screendoor effect. CRT is the only medium where its smoothness and yet incredibly high resolution contributes to exquisite detail, without the artificial crispness of most of today's fixed pixel technologies.


Yet videophiles right and left are abandoning their CRT RPTVs in favor of the newer fixed pixel stuff. It's saddening. They have no idea what they are losing. CRT RPTVs can be kept looking better than new for 10-15 years when treated right. And produce better images, all that time, than most fixed pixel technology.

Both Pioneer and Hitachi have already discontinued CRT RPTV production. At CES this year I saw NO CRT technology being promoted. Yet it is still the best easily available technolgy out there, and these days the absolutely cheapest way to go as well. CRT RPTVs are the deal of the century right now, if you check on comparative prices, even factoring in calibrations.

Pioneer Elite owners seem to be the ones most willing to keep their sets alive, possibly because they paid so much for them back in the day. Other brands of set were cheaper and are even cheaper still now, causing their owners to more often than not just step into something new rather than keep their current sets alive. Yet ALL CRT sets can be made to look stunning, with the proper care and maintenance of professional optics cleaning and calibration. Even the cheapest brand has incredible potential, when treated properly.


I hope more people will see the light on this before it's taken away. More and more manufacturers will continue to discontinue CRT technology, its days are numbered. We should hold on for dear life, because once they are gone, they are gone. I for one will not part with my year 2000 65" Panasonic CRT RPTV. They will have to pry it out of my cold, dead hands!

If you have a triple-gun CRT RPTV, PLEASE reconsider if you are about to kiss it off. It's still the best way to go, once calibrated.

And calibration is a whole lot cheaper than buying and paying taxes on a new fixed pixel set.


Mr Bob

I just purchased a Hitachi 51F59 RPCRT and I'm evaluating it - also considering a Samsung DLP. I like the picture (and price) on the Hitachi and it even does SD pretty good. My only concern is burn-in. Hitachi says in it's manual that viewing 4:3 unstretched for more than 15% of the time is considered abuse and voids the warranty (right now I don't like 4:3 stretched but I may get used to it). I know many posters claim no burn-in problem but many do. I keep the contrast down to 50% but I need the brightness at 65% to get a picture that satisfies me. I've read that calibration can reduce or eliminate the burn-in problem. How do they do that?
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post #199 of 12493 Old 07-29-2006, 08:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by resolute View Post

I just purchased a Hitachi 51F59 RPCRT and I'm evaluating it - also considering a Samsung DLP. I like the picture (and price) on the Hitachi and it even does SD pretty good. My only concern is burn-in. Hitachi says in it's manual that viewing 4:3 unstretched for more than 15% of the time is considered abuse and voids the warranty (right now I don't like 4:3 stretched but I may get used to it). I know many posters claim no burn-in problem but many do. I keep the contrast down to 50% but I need the brightness at 65% to get a picture that satisfies me. I've read that calibration can reduce or eliminate the burn-in problem. How do they do that?

It does not eliminate the burn-in problem. Simply put a well calibrated CRT display will have it's white level brought down significantly from the out-of box settings which are usually maxxed out. This significantly reduces wear, thus minimizing burn-in concerns. Brightness is black level, contrast is white level, white level is what you're concerned about.
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post #200 of 12493 Old 07-29-2006, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Jesus, guys, it warms my heart to hear from all of you within hours of my post, which was in the weeee hours of the mornin', just hours ago! Look how many replies already!

It's now midmorning of the same day, just hours later!



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Got an email from my rep, pimping 55813s NEW for $800.

My problem is that I'm already getting pushback at home for my 3 year old 55711. I love it, wife wants flat.

The First Clarke Law states, 'If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible he is almost certainly right, but if he says that it is impossible he is very probably wrong.'
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post #201 of 12493 Old 07-29-2006, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by resolute View Post

I just purchased a Hitachi 51F59 RPCRT and I'm evaluating it - also considering a Samsung DLP. I like the picture (and price) on the Hitachi and it even does SD pretty good. My only concern is burn-in. Hitachi says in it's manual that viewing 4:3 unstretched for more than 15% of the time is considered abuse and voids the warranty (right now I don't like 4:3 stretched but I may get used to it). I know many posters claim no burn-in problem but many do. I keep the contrast down to 50% but I need the brightness at 65% to get a picture that satisfies me. I've read that calibration can reduce or eliminate the burn-in problem. How do they do that?

Resolute,

I have a Mits 55" CRT RPTV that is about 3 years old now, and you can tell the area of the screen that is the 4:3 image when you don't stretch it. It is just a little darker now than the sides of the screen.

Now, the contrast has been kept no higher than 45, usually at 40. The max setting is 63.

I had been given to understand that if I kept the contrast down, that I wouldn't have a burn-in problem. It would appear that if that is the case, the contrast would have to have been kept even lower, perhaps under 30.

The problem is, I don't really like the picture quality when the contrast is set that low. We do a lot of watching in the daytime, and the contrast has to be at 40 to have a decent picture in my eyes.

Ever since I noticed the darker area in the middle of the screen, I have used the 480i "standard" mode, which is just a proportional stretch of the 4:3 image. And the burn-in seems to have stabilized.

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post #202 of 12493 Old 07-29-2006, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by schticker View Post

Got an email from my rep, pimping 55813s NEW for $800.

My problem is that I'm already getting pushback at home for my 3 year old 55711. I love it, wife wants flat.

Yes, same here with the wife. Once she found out there were flat screens that go on the wall, I have had trouble.

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post #203 of 12493 Old 07-29-2006, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by resolute View Post

I just purchased a Hitachi 51F59 RPCRT and I'm evaluating it - also considering a Samsung DLP. I like the picture (and price) on the Hitachi and it even does SD pretty good. My only concern is burn-in. Hitachi says in it's manual that viewing 4:3 unstretched for more than 15% of the time is considered abuse and voids the warranty (right now I don't like 4:3 stretched but I may get used to it). I know many posters claim no burn-in problem but many do. I keep the contrast down to 50% but I need the brightness at 65% to get a picture that satisfies me.


Brightness is best where best set, given the picture on there. In cals we recalibrate where the centerpoint should be, to center for most material. Yet even tho mine now looks great on virtually everything with my Br centerpointed, I still crank it down 5 clicks for Leno every night, as that show is set so that all parts of the screen are averaged, and in the shadow areas during his monologue you really want it unseeably dark, and NOT filled in properly. This makes everything else on his show look good. Then afterwards I set it back to centerpoint, for most everything else I watch.

It is not necessarily personal preference, but it can be set for your pic to look excellent, IF at 65% it properly fills in the detail in dark areas on most material.

Space scenes are a great way to play with it till you have it down. I use a certain set of space scenes in Starship Troopers.

As was said above by Chris Wiggles, you won't screenburn your set with the brightness, only with the contrast.

Quote:


Since I've read that calibration can reduce or eliminate the burn-in problem. How do they do that?

Asked and answered very well above, again by Chris.


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post #204 of 12493 Old 07-29-2006, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

It does not eliminate the burn-in problem. Simply put a well calibrated CRT display will have it's white level brought down significantly from the out-of box settings which are usually maxxed out. This significantly reduces wear, thus minimizing burn-in concerns. Brightness is black level, contrast is white level, white level is what you're concerned about.


I am one calibrator who does not believe in depriving owners of RPTVs of sometimes badly needed headroom, so I do not usually "permanently" bring down the overall contrast settings, while in sm. I bring them down to half during grayscale process, but crank them back up to factory levels before ending the cal.

My owners, however, are virually always already savvy as to the fact that Torch Mode is not just deliterious, but actually dangerous to RPTVs, and must be used only once in awhile, with half the OOB settings used for Contrast being in play at all other times.

In other words, I trust my owners to do what Chris states here, in terms of keeping white levels down from OOB settings, by keeping their Contrast settings down accordingly. If there are kids involved, of course upon request I go the way of many other calibrators and take it down "permanently" in sm.


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post #205 of 12493 Old 07-29-2006, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mtrot View Post

Resolute,

I have a Mits 55" CRT RPTV that is about 3 years old now, and you can tell the area of the screen that is the 4:3 image when you don't stretch it. It is just a little darker now than the sides of the screen.

Now, the contrast has been kept no higher than 45, usually at 40. The max setting is 63.


The Mits's are the product of a warped sense of humor on the part of their designers in Japan, as far as user Contrast bargraph goes. If you look very closely, you'll see that the halfway point on the user contrast bargraph is already 90% up. This was confirmed with luminance footlamberts readings recently, from a color analyzer. I have been reporting for years that clicking up on the right half of the user contrast bargraph produces visible increases in contrast on only 4 of those many clicks. I have been saying 75-80% up for all those years, but now it is confirmed at 90%.

That's in User. In sm it's different.

The sm contrast is NOT typically maxed out at 63, tho I have seen it work very well at 63. The one I did yesterday was set at 37, and that was max contrast - Torch Mode - where half that is what should be used. Torch Mode is not set by maxing out the sm settings. It is caused by maxing out USER Contrast settings when in OOB condition, where the sm settings are rarely anywhere close to max.

They set the sm contrast via instrument at the factory, and different models of HD have had very different settings of sm overall light level registers over the years, from series to series. It is ALWAYS set to produce Torch Mode at 100% on User bargraph, no matter what the setting in sm turns out to be via instrument at the factory.

As such, an sm setting of 40 of a possible 63 in sm could very well be MUCH higher than it should be, if you are recalibrating contrast during a cal, in sm. It would definitely be much higher than it should be for the 55907 I just completed in Sacramento, whose sm contrast setting was 37 - out of a possible 63 - producing Torch Mode as scheduled, in user max'd out user contrast settings.


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post #206 of 12493 Old 07-29-2006, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by schticker View Post

Got an email from my rep, pimping 55813s NEW for $800.


Wow. Wow. WOW!

Did I say before, that right now CRT RPTVs are:


THE DEAL OF THE CENTURY!!!



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post #207 of 12493 Old 07-29-2006, 07:40 PM
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Thanks for the reply above, Mr Bob. As it happens, the 73" TV that I was going to buy sold about 2 hours before I was able to see it. Perhaps for the better, although I do think the deal was probably quite good.

Would you mind adding some more detail to your ranking of the more recent generation RP CRTs? For example, how do the Pioneer Elite RP CRTs compare against the 65" Mitsu or the Panasonic? Also how about the 715 series Hitachis that have an extra lens, I believe. All of these sets do pop up used from time to time and I am very seriously considering picking on up. Just trying to get a better idea of which to go after!

thank you again!
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post #208 of 12493 Old 07-30-2006, 12:59 AM
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CRT is on it's death bed and about to flat line. IT served it's purpose well but if you think it is viable for the future forget about it. I got rid of my CRT Hitachi back in April and replaced it with the sony sxrd. The Sony picture is miles better without calibration. Everyone who sees the picture agrees.

But don't be swayed by the nasayers.. Just like 2 channel Stereo, vinyl records and tube amps there will be a small group that will never acknowledge their death. For the majority I would look at anything but CRTs unless you want a CRT direct view for the bedroom.

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post #209 of 12493 Old 07-30-2006, 09:13 AM
 
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CRT is on it's death bed and about to flat line. IT served it's purpose well but if you think it is viable for the future forget about it. I got rid of my CRT Hitachi back in April and replaced it with the sony sxrd. The Sony picture is miles better without calibration. Everyone who sees the picture agrees.

But don't be swayed by the nasayers.. Just like 2 channel Stereo, vinyl records and tube amps there will be a small group that will never acknowledge their death. For the majority I would look at anything but CRTs unless you want a CRT direct view for the bedroom.

Reference image quality matters to some people.
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post #210 of 12493 Old 07-30-2006, 02:49 PM
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This thread has blown my shopping to pieces. Looking for a set, my first "big screen" television, and was leaning towards DLP b/c of cost. Now I'm looking for a CRT. Went to all the B&M stores, and found the Hitachis at CC. They had a 51" and 57" on display, and 65" available but not out on the floor. The 51" was $1045, and the 57 and 65 were $1425 (same price - strange). The 57 has been advertised recently for $1199, and I've seen it online as a refurb for about $900. Found these prices, and was all excited, but then at the store the pictures looked horrid! They just had a regular television (maybe cable, not sure) feed, whereas on the DLPs and Plasmas on display they had HD signals, so hard to judge, but is it REALLY that big of an improvement setting it up at home with a good signal and calibration? I'm looking at buying two sets, likely a 51 and a 57 or 65 for my two rooms, and don't want to jump in if the results don't add up. I'm hoping that it is the setup and not these specific models that are the problem. They couldn't (or refused to) change setup so that I could at least see a DVD signal. And of course missed out on a decent sale, when they readily admitted that they wanted to move the sets out of inventory.

Thanks for all the great info!

PS - anyone have a recommended ISF calibration tech in Dallas?
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