Owners ONLY thread - >>>KDS-A2000's<<< - Settings/Tweaks - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 3250 Old 08-28-2006, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

T\\The bottom line is: OTA HD may or may not be better than cable HD - it depends!

Thanks for the information. I can't get OTA HD anymore, due to moving out of line-of-sight of the local broadcast towers. I believe my statements were true in my locale as of several years ago, before I moved to where I am now.

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post #362 of 3250 Old 08-28-2006, 06:29 PM
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Thanks WGW. Did my set tonight and now its perfect. 'C' position also for me for the rotation control. Now I have to look at the green push.
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post #363 of 3250 Old 08-28-2006, 07:44 PM
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Just about everyone notices it. Some don't know enough to even understand it's not inherent to HD. Others have made a concsious decision to accept SSE in order to avoid glare, or because of the cost differential between rear-projection and LCD/plasma at the same screen size, or because the screen size they want isn't available in plasma. Not everyone is bothered by SSE to the same degree.

Thanks Sourcery, I did have MNF on and what a difference from the SD to the HD 720p Im curious to see Direct tv, the install is now on for tomorrow. I felt alot better with the pq tonight with the game. It would be awesome if there would be games in 1080i.

I may try a OTA antenna just for an expirement to see any better quality on the local hd
Thanks
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post #364 of 3250 Old 08-28-2006, 11:04 PM
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Anyone know what the service menu setting is for turning down greens and yellows? These two colors seem to be over saturated on my A2000. Thanks.

Matt
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post #365 of 3250 Old 08-29-2006, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdanderson View Post

Anyone know what the service menu setting is for turning down greens and yellows? These two colors seem to be over saturated on my A2000. Thanks.

You only have red, green and blue to adjust. You may need to ask someone like Googer or AVBill, some one who knows some of the cryptic Sony codes for what controls what in the Sony Service Menu. Every new model is different in the Service Menu, but most stuff is the same as the older models. I can't help you, although I did have an older Sony CRT and I was able to get into the Service Menu and reduce the main green color to give everything a more balanced look. It's just way complicated. We need a guide, plus you need to write everything down. We would be voiding the warranty if Sony knew we were going into the Service Menu as that is reserved for authorized service people only. Still, if you plan it out carefully you can go in and change what you need and get out then Sony won't be the wiser.
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post #366 of 3250 Old 08-29-2006, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksk1186 View Post

Thanks Sourcery, I did have MNF on and what a difference from the SD to the HD 720p Im curious to see Direct tv, the install is now on for tomorrow. I felt alot better with the pq tonight with the game. It would be awesome if there would be games in 1080i.

I may try a OTA antenna just for an expirement to see any better quality on the local hd
Thanks

If the game is HD, ESPN and ABC broadcast in 720P. CBS and NBC provide 1080i.
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post #367 of 3250 Old 08-29-2006, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdanderson View Post

Well I got my 60in A2000 yesterday and overall I am satisfied with the picture except for the fact that there is a lot of green in the picture. I have made all the various tweaks and settings but I wonder if there is something else I can do to lower the green. Greens seem to be oversaturated.

I turned the hue down some but I don't want to put too much red in the picture. I have not made much adjustment in the white balance section except to turn the green gain way down. This helps but I don't know if that is really the right thing to do. Is there anything in the service menu that I can adjust to turn down the greens? My build date is July 2006 and the serial number is 9004658. Thanks.

All primaries on the SXRD are a little over saturated (believe we are most sensitive to green). However, you shouldn't have to do all that. I would be concerned about ending up with less than an optimal picture.

Suggest you obtain Avia or DVE and use the color decoder screen to see if green is really overemphasized. The discs will also allow you to properly set color/hue. Plus, white balance can be adjusted with gray ramp screens.
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post #368 of 3250 Old 08-29-2006, 09:11 AM
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A little aside info for you guys. I mentioned using a Radio Shack amp to help clean up the analog signals, well I was able to get into my STB SA8300HD's service menu and see the signal strength meter.

My cable line comes to the house and goes through a 2 way splitter, one leg goes to my room and hits another 2 way splitter. One leg of that goes to the RS 1into4 amp. If I take the cable from the STB and bypass the amp and connect it right to the second splitter the signal level measured -16. Going through the amp it gets boosted to -7. So it's definetly an improvement. Just for grins I swapped the 1into4 amp for the 1into1 amp. Since it doesn't divide up the signal it should be stronger and it was. I was able to get the signal level to 0. Very nice! SD image quality improved some more.
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post #369 of 3250 Old 08-29-2006, 09:20 AM
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I just tried another change. The secong leg of the second splitter was going directly to my cable modem, so I hooked the cable modem to one of the amp outputs and then removed the second splitter entirely. I connected the two cables together at the wall with a double female coax connector. Low and behold the STB meter is now showing a level of -3. Wow, I think I'll leave it like that.
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post #370 of 3250 Old 08-29-2006, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonWW View Post

A little aside info for you guys. I mentioned using a Radio Shack amp to help clean up the analog signals, well I was able to get into my STB SA8300HD's service menu and see the signal strength meter.

My cable line comes to the house and goes through a 2 way splitter, one leg goes to my room and hits another 2 way splitter. One leg of that goes to the RS 1into4 amp. If I take the cable from the STB and bypass the amp and connect it right to the second splitter the signal level measured -16. Going through the amp it gets boosted to -7. So it's definetly an improvement. Just for grins I swapped the 1into4 amp for the 1into1 amp. Since it doesn't divide up the signal it should be stronger and it was. I was able to get the signal level to 0. Very nice!

This is NOT a A2000 issue. I should NOT have contributed to carrying it on here. There are several different SA8300HD threads on AVS, you ought to take the issue there.

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post #371 of 3250 Old 08-29-2006, 11:05 AM
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All,

I will be the owner of a 60 A2000 arriving Saturday! One newbie question, I own a plasma and have known that to prolong the life of the set I should not run in dynamic mode. Are there any such methods for prolonging the lamp life/set life in an SXRD?
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post #372 of 3250 Old 08-29-2006, 11:21 AM
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There is a power-saving mode that runs the lamp at a lower wattage. I don't know if it will really add to the lamp's life-span, though.
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post #373 of 3250 Old 08-29-2006, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

This is NOT a A2000 issue. I should NOT have contributed to carrying it on here. There are several different SA8300HD threads on AVS, you ought to take the issue there.


I don't know Dave, this all ties into people complaining about this sets poor SD image quality. It is in fact very good. There are specific tweaks that I mentioned that make a big difference on the SD image quality. Using this amp is part of it.

I don't know why you use the word "issue". That sounds like some kind of "problem". I use the SA8300HD as a signal meter, that's all. Cleaning up the analog channels with an amp and then tweaking the input settings to improve PQ does not have anything to do with the 8300HD, but it does fit in with my earlier posts having to do with this TV.

If you go over to the SA 8300 HD Tips & Tricks -- SARA thread you will see I mentioned using it's meter there as well. This is for the guys wanting to clean up their analog signals as well as for whatever TV set they have. Getting a good strong signal is important to everyone.
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post #374 of 3250 Old 08-29-2006, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by JasonWW View Post

...people complaining about this sets poor SD image quality. It is in fact very good.

I agree. I know what poor SD looks like. I lived with it for 3 years with my KF-50XBR800. In comparison, SD on the SXRD sets is amazingly good.

I suspect that complaints about SD on SXRD sets stems from some combination of the following factors:

1. Bad signal/bad content. "Garbage in, garbage out" applies just as much to digital television as it does to digital computers.

2. The new Set Top Box is now upconverting SD to HD. It's provided free by the cable or satellite service. It doesn't do a good job. It may not have the ability to "pass through" the signal so the TV can do whatever upconversion may be required, or the owner/operator may not configure it to do so (for whatever reason.)

3. It's often the case that the new TV, in addition to its other differences with the owner's previous set, has a much larger screen. SD just doesn't have enough pixels to look all that good on any 4:3 screen larger than about 36". A 50" 16:9 screen is equivalent to a 42" 4:3 screen.

4. Direct-view CRTs have a certain "look" to the images they produce. Of the modern digital TV technologies, plasmas look more like CRTs than does any of the competition. Personally, I find the CRT/plasma look to be unnatural. But many prefer it, perhaps for no other reason than it's what they're used to. I believe this factor strongly accounts for people's dissatisfaction with the way SD looks on non-plasma TVs, and also accounts (to some extent, at least) for the preference for plasma screens.

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post #375 of 3250 Old 08-29-2006, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by The Others View Post

Thanks WGW. Did my set tonight and now its perfect. 'C' position also for me for the rotation control. Now I have to look at the green push.

You're welcome! Contributors to the AVSForum have provided me with a lot of practical knowledge that I've been able to make use of over the years. I was glad to have an opportunity to reciprocate.
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post #376 of 3250 Old 08-29-2006, 06:13 PM
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Up til now, my practice when configuring TV picture settings has been to use a contrast (picture) setting closer to the middle of the set's range. The reason is that it always seemed to me that the higher settings for contrast caused black crush, and also caused some other form of distortion for which I have no name--it makes the picture look less natural, at least to me.


Thanks to the information provided by lovingdvd in his great review of the A2000, I think I now know what the problem has been with setting contrast too high. Also thanks to him, I decided to try setting the A2000's contrast to some value in the 80-88 range. I finally settled on 84 (which just happens to be the same as the value recommended by CNET, by the way.) I have to say that that is the highest contrast setting that has ever worked for me.

I have updated my settings in the A2000 settings thread accordingly.

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post #377 of 3250 Old 08-29-2006, 06:33 PM
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I hope ther is an easy fix, but none of my TWC boxes work on my A2000 with HDMI? I returned the 8300 hd and got a new one, so I know it is not a cable issue. It will work on svideo and only on some of the HD channels on component. Any thoughts?

BTW went to radio shack an got a OTA antenna. The signal is as clear or clearer than cable on network HD.
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post #378 of 3250 Old 08-29-2006, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonWW View Post

You only have red, green and blue to adjust. You may need to ask someone like Googer or AVBill, some one who knows some of the cryptic Sony codes for what controls what in the Sony Service Menu. Every new model is different in the Service Menu, but most stuff is the same as the older models. I can't help you, although I did have an older Sony CRT and I was able to get into the Service Menu and reduce the main green color to give everything a more balanced look. It's just way complicated. We need a guide, plus you need to write everything down. We would be voiding the warranty if Sony knew we were going into the Service Menu as that is reserved for authorized service people only. Still, if you plan it out carefully you can go in and change what you need and get out then Sony won't be the wiser.

Thanks for the advice JasonWW. I may contact Googer or AVBill and see if they can help. I have some experience with the service menu from from old Sony HS-510 direct view set so I feel like I can do it. I just don't remember what I adjusted in my old set. Thanks again.

Matt
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post #379 of 3250 Old 08-29-2006, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlb View Post

All primaries on the SXRD are a little over saturated (believe we are most sensitive to green). However, you shouldn't have to do all that. I would be concerned about ending up with less than an optimal picture.

Suggest you obtain Avia or DVE and use the color decoder screen to see if green is really overemphasized. The discs will also allow you to properly set color/hue. Plus, white balance can be adjusted with gray ramp screens.

Thanks rlb for the input. I have already made the basic settings using DVE and green is indeed over saturated. What do I do now? I don't really know how to use the gray ramp screens you mentioned but I did print out the DVE manual from their web site so that may help.

Matt
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post #380 of 3250 Old 08-30-2006, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksk1186 View Post

I hope ther is an easy fix, but none of my TWC boxes work on my A2000 with HDMI? I returned the 8300 hd and got a new one, so I know it is not a cable issue. It will work on svideo and only on some of the HD channels on component. Any thoughts?

Do you mean "I know it is not a STB issue"? It could very well be a HDMI cable problem or just a setting in the 8300HD. I've got that box and set it to pass through and the HDMI works just fine for me. As well as the coaxial, composite, component and S-video. Have you tried a soft reboot of the 8300HD? There is also a 8300HD thread you can post in if you think it is a setting or something in it that is causing the problem. The fact you only get some HD channels and not all the ones your paying for seems weird. I don't have any theories on that.

Maybe a weak signal from TWC? Have you checked the signal strength on the 8300HD? Or else give TWC a call.
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post #381 of 3250 Old 08-30-2006, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdanderson View Post

Thanks rlb for the input. I have already made the basic settings using DVE and green is indeed over saturated. What do I do now? I don't really know how to use the gray ramp screens you mentioned but I did print out the DVE manual from their web site so that may help.

This may be only semantics; however, there is a difference between over saturated and over emphasized. SXRD's are recognized as having oversaturated primaries (greater color than the standards). Sony presumably did this because many viewers find it "pleasing". Over emphasized (maybe this is only my term) is because the color decoder has an error that emphasizes one primary over the others versus what the signal intended. The color decoder screen (at least the one in Avia) after adjusting for the blue primary allows you to compare green and red (plus or minus 5%, 10% etc.) Normally the SXRD's have very accurate decoders which keep all primaries within at least 5% of each other (as opposed to say Mitsuibishi which frequently emphasized red by at least a +20%).

Without professional equipment, you are pretty much limited to adjusting grayscale by eye. Using the grayscale ramps, your objective is to not see any "color" in the scales from "0" IRE to "100" IRE. If I remember correctly, the "gains" primarily affect 50-100 IRE and the "bias" affect 0-50 IRE. So, lets say you believe you see a "green shade" in the 50-100 area of the ramps. You would then start reducing "green gain" until the green disappears. If you then see some blue, you could reduce blue gain until that disappears. As I said, this is a "trial and error" process.

When I first received my XBR1, I definitely felt that the green was intrusive. My trial and error process with grayscale ramps ended up with around a "-10" for the green gain and around a "-6" for the blue gain. This made a significant improvement. However, it was after my ISF at around 150 hours that I considered my colors and grayscale to be perfect.
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post #382 of 3250 Old 08-30-2006, 08:25 AM
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i get some ghosting..
anyoine else have this problem?
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post #383 of 3250 Old 08-30-2006, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdanderson View Post

Thanks for the advice JasonWW. I may contact Googer or AVBill and see if they can help. I have some experience with the service menu from from old Sony HS-510 direct view set so I feel like I can do it. I just don't remember what I adjusted in my old set. Thanks again.

Now is probably time for a reminder: Sony has changed their service menu to a great degree from the old CRT days. There are now several modes and categories under each service mode. Many of the parameters there are non-functional (it all depends on the model set). There are now literally thousands of parameters, and there is no real indication as to which ones work, and which don't.

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post #384 of 3250 Old 08-30-2006, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by JasonWW View Post

Do you mean "I know it is not a STB issue"? It could very well be a HDMI cable problem or just a setting in the 8300HD. I've got that box and set it to pass through and the HDMI works just fine for me. As well as the coaxial, composite, component and S-video. Have you tried a soft reboot of the 8300HD? There is also a 8300HD thread you can post in if you think it is a setting or something in it that is causing the problem. The fact you only get some HD channels and not all the ones your paying for seems weird. I don't have any theories on that.

Maybe a weak signal from TWC? Have you checked the signal strength on the 8300HD? Or else give TWC a call.


I have the Moster 600 HDMI cable, I may try to set it up as pass through. I would assume it is not the Sony at this point....... Thanks I will try to go to other thread
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post #385 of 3250 Old 08-30-2006, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlb View Post

This may be only semantics; however, there is a difference between over saturated and over emphasized. SXRD's are recognized as having oversaturated primaries (greater color than the standards). Sony presumably did this because many viewers find it "pleasing". Over emphasized (maybe this is only my term) is because the color decoder has an error that emphasizes one primary over the others versus what the signal intended. The color decoder screen (at least the one in Avia) after adjusting for the blue primary allows you to compare green and red (plus or minus 5%, 10% etc.) Normally the SXRD's have very accurate decoders which keep all primaries within at least 5% of each other (as opposed to say Mitsuibishi which frequently emphasized red by at least a +20%).

Without professional equipment, you are pretty much limited to adjusting grayscale by eye. Using the grayscale ramps, your objective is to not see any "color" in the scales from "0" IRE to "100" IRE. If I remember correctly, the "gains" primarily affect 50-100 IRE and the "bias" affect 0-50 IRE. So, lets say you believe you see a "green shade" in the 50-100 area of the ramps. You would then start reducing "green gain" until the green disappears. If you then see some blue, you could reduce blue gain until that disappears. As I said, this is a "trial and error" process.

When I first received my XBR1, I definitely felt that the green was intrusive. My trial and error process with grayscale ramps ended up with around a "-10" for the green gain and around a "-6" for the blue gain. This made a significant improvement. However, it was after my ISF at around 150 hours that I considered my colors and grayscale to be perfect.

Thanks so much rlb for all the info. That really helps me to understand what is going on with grayscale.

Matt
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post #386 of 3250 Old 08-30-2006, 11:01 PM
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A friend of mine loaned me Avia Pro today. Unfortunately, it's not a lot of help as it expects you to know how to use the test patterns. Is there an explanation anywhere online that someone can direct me to that shows how to use this? It looks like a great product if I had some experience.
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post #387 of 3250 Old 08-31-2006, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksk1186 View Post

I have the Moster 600 HDMI cable, I may try to set it up as pass through. I would assume it is not the Sony at this point....... Thanks I will try to go to other thread

You have to use pass through on the STB. If you don't the STB will convert everything to what ever output you select and it's conversion is not as good as the TV's. Setting it to pass through will let the native format go to the TV and then the TV will upconvert it to 1080p. Still, I don't think it has anything to do with your problem. It might, so try it and see.
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post #388 of 3250 Old 08-31-2006, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by gogators93 View Post

A friend of mine loaned me Avia Pro today. Unfortunately, it's not a lot of help as it expects you to know how to use the test patterns. Is there an explanation anywhere online that someone can direct me to that shows how to use this? It looks like a great product if I had some experience.

The following is the best that I am aware of:
http://www.***************.com/htsth...&o=all&fpart=1
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post #389 of 3250 Old 08-31-2006, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by rlb View Post

The following is the best that I am aware of:
http://www.***************.com/htsth...&o=all&fpart=1

That is a great start. Thank you very much!
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post #390 of 3250 Old 08-31-2006, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by sourcery View Post

4. Direct-view CRTs have a certain "look" to the images they produce. Of the modern digital TV technologies, plasmas look more like CRTs than does any of the competition. Personally, I find the CRT/plasma look to be unnatural. But many prefer it, perhaps for no other reason than it's what they're used to. I believe this factor strongly accounts for people's dissatisfaction with the way SD looks on non-plasma TVs, and also accounts (to some extent, at least) for the preference for plasma screens.

I don't particularly buy that one. The A2000's SD picture quality on my set, at least, is on a par with my 1990 Sony 32" XBR, which was the best damn SD picture I ever saw. I cannot imagine that another set in the same price range is going to do a better job at SD than this set.

If someone has a problem with SD on their A2000, the problem is 1) a broken A2000, or 2) a GIGO problem.

Most likely the cable box is "upconverting" or the input signal is particularly noisy as Sourcery points out. Many cable systems split the signal within apartment buildings unmercifully, figuring that no one will notice, or care. Upconverting scalers, no matter who makes them, have big problems when they are trying to work on noise. And I bet some of the complainers are first-time HD ownersstill trying to watch VCR tapes....

About half the reason I chose this set was the strength of it's SD display. I find it amazing that someone could call this set "poor" with respect to SD. It's the first HD set I've seen under $8000 that could actually display SD sports that one could watch.

It's like calling a Prius a gas guzzler. Does not compute. SD is even good stretched, and I'd have called that impossible.
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