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post #721 of 3250 Old 09-15-2006, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

No - But not sure what you are asking. The set upconverts everything (except 1080p) to 1080p because that is what the display technology needs. Settings (if there are any) for scan rate are on the source end (DVD player, STB, broadcast station).

Thanks plenty!

What I was refering to was if there was a display menu setting or remote button function to change rez ala. toggle 480i/480p/720p/1080i/1080p. Its a moot point & not a feature I would care for but was curious.

So then, my 1080i HDMI cable shouldn't be an issue limiting the display's native rez to 1080i. Curious though, will the display accept a HDMI 1.3 connection? Sorry in advance, if that is a stupid question

Cheers!

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post #722 of 3250 Old 09-15-2006, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

I think it is both Sony hand picking sets and luck. One thing is that warm-up time is important on these sets. One should allow at least 10 minutes (according to Sony), and preferably 1/2 hour before making uniformity evaluations.

An additional comment on these color non-uniformity issues: I do not believe that they are electronic. I've seen no statements as to the actual cause, but I've go to believe that it is an issue with light leakage, deterioration of the dicholoric mirrors, or some other optical/mechanical/chemical issue in the imaging engine (optical block).

It does seem to get better after a long time but never goes away completely. Do you think this issue is so common that I may as well stick with the set I got, rather than exchange again? I don't have many other options in 60 inch tv's. Flat panels are way too expensive, and seldom match the SXRD PQ, and DLP's drive me crazy with rainbows.
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post #723 of 3250 Old 09-15-2006, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by AlanBuck View Post

It does seem to get better after a long time but never goes away completely. Do you think this issue is so common that I may as well stick with the set I got, rather than exchange again?

If it were me, I'd exchange it. From other postings it is not unusual for 2-3 exchanges till people get one that is right. And it is not unusual either for people to have no problem with this.

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post #724 of 3250 Old 09-15-2006, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by DSKTexas View Post

You will be amazed at the quality of the picture with your HD-A1. I've stunned many friends and family with this combo.

IS the HD-A1's SD upconversion equally impressive on this display?

Last Q, I don't want to go tooooo far off topic here.

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post #725 of 3250 Old 09-15-2006, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

I am slightly skeptical about using gain/bias controls to get rid of the green blob. If these are color non-uniformities adjusting gain/bias will not make those non-uniformities go away. What they may do, is to throw the gray scale so far away from a standard picture (D65 - 6500K) that the eye may not notice subtle shades of green.

I wish (well, not really) I had access to a SXRD set with the green blob issue so I could make some specific measurements on the impact of these adjustments - but I don't.

Actually the issue we saw is not green blob. If you see jimmyv's description below, you could see the green haze could show on any area of the screen as long as it's low light/shadowed.

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Originally Posted by jimmyv View Post

According to the way I read Googer's comments to me, if your green haze is strictly a low light / shadowed area issue, then green bias should handle it. If it also shows up on brightly lit areas, then green gain probably needs to be adjusted.

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post #726 of 3250 Old 09-15-2006, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Krammer1 View Post

IS the HD-A1's SD upconversion equally impressive on this display?

Last Q, I don't want to go tooooo far off topic here.

The HD-A1 does an amazing job on standard DVD's. I also have a Sony upconvert player, and the HD-A1 does a better job for sure. I was kinda shocked in fact at how good the better quality DVD's look when played on the HD-A1, and A-2000.
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post #727 of 3250 Old 09-15-2006, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by AlanBuck View Post

The HD-A1 does an amazing job on standard DVD's. I also have a Sony upconvert player, and the HD-A1 does a better job for sure. I was kinda shocked in fact at how good the better quality DVD's look when played on the HD-A1, and A-2000.


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post #728 of 3250 Old 09-15-2006, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by wstsao View Post

Actually the issue we saw is not green blob. If you see jimmyv's description below, you could see the green haze could show on any area of the screen as long as it's low light/shadowed.

That is a VERY GOOD POINT!

I have seen several posts now talking about using the Bias/Gain controls to take care of green issues and was responding to those. That's why I was careful to talk about color uniformity issues. I probably should not have quoted jimmyv's post. Though to be honest, I've seen people referring to a "green haze" in some portion of the screen.

In short: COLOR UNIFORMITY issues will not be fixed with Gain/Bias settings - only hidden!

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post #729 of 3250 Old 09-15-2006, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

I am slightly skeptical about using gain/bias controls to get rid of the green blob. If these are color non-uniformities adjusting gain/bias will not make those non-uniformities go away. What they may do, is to throw the gray scale so far away from a standard picture (D65 - 6500K) that the eye may not notice subtle shades of green.

I wish (well, not really) I had access to a SXRD set with the green blob issue so I could make some specific measurements on the impact of these adjustments - but I don't.

Dave:

EDIT: I was away for awhile in the middle of this and didn't see you'd already clarified that your concern was about non-uniform issues.

I believe the 'green haze' issue I've been trying to resolve is different than the 'green blob' others have discussed. I understood the 'green blob' to show up against a uniform (single color & intensity) display as a localized area of green tint. What I've been experiencing has been a green tinge showing up against particular colors/textures primarly in low light conditions and will occur anywhere on the display these conditions exist. Thus, I tend to feel this is oriented to color decoding, not the physical light engine.

Since I do not have any tools with which to measure the color temperature of my display, I have to go strictly by eye. And by eye, my blacks, grey scale, and whites look "right" to me. Men's faces with stubble, shadowed areas and low lit backgrounds (like biege walls) and a few other situations seemed to have a green cast to them, so, I've reduced the green bias and significantly reduced the problem as I percieve it.

In bright, well lit situations, I feel my display looks very natural and I'm pleased with the colors. While this may be the "Steaming Rat" approach, it has resulted in my being happier with my SXRD, cancelling a service call I'd scheduled, and, dismissing thoughts of returning the set. If others can increase their satisfaction with and enjoyment of the set by doing similar adjustments they should.

I would be interested in seeing what it looked like properly adjusted by a knowledgable technician with proper equipment, but, probably not enough so as to hire someone to do so.

PS: for those looking for test patterns you can find quite a few here:
http://www.w6rz.net/
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post #730 of 3250 Old 09-15-2006, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyv View Post

Dave:

EDIT: I was away for awhile in the middle of this and didn't see you'd already clarified that your concern was about non-uniform issues.

I believe the 'green haze' issue I've been trying to resolve is different than the 'green blob' others have discussed. I understood the 'green blob' to show up against a uniform (single color & intensity) display as a localized area of green tint. What I've been experiencing has been a green tinge showing up against particular colors/textures primarly in low light conditions and will occur anywhere on the display these conditions exist. Thus, I tend to feel this is oriented to color decoding, not the physical light engine.

Since I do not have any tools with which to measure the color temperature of my display, I have to go strictly by eye. And by eye, my blacks, grey scale, and whites look "right" to me. Men's faces with stubble, shadowed areas and low lit backgrounds (like biege walls) and a few other situations seemed to have a green cast to them, so, I've reduced the green bias and significantly reduced the problem as I percieve it.

In bright, well lit situations, I feel my display looks very natural and I'm pleased with the colors. While this may be the "Steaming Rat" approach, it has resulted in my being happier with my SXRD, cancelling a service call I'd scheduled, and, dismissing thoughts of returning the set. If others can increase their satisfaction with and enjoyment of the set by doing similar adjustments they should.

I would be interested in seeing what it looked like properly adjusted by a knowledgable technician with proper equipment, but, probably not enough so as to hire someone to do so.

PS: for those looking for test patterns you can find quite a few here:
http://www.w6rz.net/


I agree 100%, with your description, and cure of this phenomenon.

I have not seen a "green haze" , per se, but rather I have seen more of a slight green cast appearing exactly as you describe it. While looking at greyscale test patterns, and carefully viewing black & white programing, I adjusted the white balance controls until all colorations disappeared.

Now, I am delighted with the picture, under nearly all conditions, and like you, believe that the touch of a calibrator would fine tune the great PQ I get from this set.
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post #731 of 3250 Old 09-15-2006, 01:14 PM
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What are your white balance settings now?
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post #732 of 3250 Old 09-15-2006, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyv View Post

Thus, I tend to feel this is oriented to color decoding, not the physical light engine.

Jimmyv: We are 98% in agreement. The slight point of divergence is probably just semantics: The problem (of uniform green haze) is oriented towards setting the proper white balance, not color decoding (as you stated). Decoding is an entirely different matter.

RE: Steaming Rat Method. Rich has a lot of good thinking in that methodology. After all, one wants a "natural" image. I've had a few customers that have asked about it and I think that much (not all) of what he says makes sense. However, there are lots of "knobs" to tweak and one has to start with some consistent point. To me, that means to start with the correct, uniform (from light to dark as well as from side to side) gray scale. The eye can easily be fooled in setting this correctly, so using an instrumented approach (that's where us isf calibrators come in) to get this "canvas" to the correct gray is really needed to make it "right".

Let's take color decoding for example. If the gray scale is not correct (ie: at 6500K) then any perceptions of incorrect decoding ("red push" for example) will be "colored" (excuse the pun) by the incorrectness of the overall screen.

But, back to the "green haze": If one is stuck with a set with noticeable green haze, and one has already blown his/her budget and there is no room to add a calibration ($200-$400) into the equation, then tweaking bias/gain as has been described is a reasonable thing to do. It is important to use one of the test DVDs (but NOT Avia - it has some slight gray scale tracking issues) in making these adjustments - particularly useful for visual tweaking is the stepped gray scale pattern.

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post #733 of 3250 Old 09-15-2006, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

The problem (of uniform green haze) is oriented towards setting the proper white balance, not color decoding (as you stated). Decoding is an entirely different matter.

Yes, I've been adjusting white balance. Thanks for clarifying that being distinct from color decoding.
Quote:


To me, that means to start with the correct, uniform (from light to dark as well as from side to side) gray scale. The eye can easily be fooled in setting this correctly, so using an instrumented approach (that's where us isf calibrators come in) to get this "canvas" to the correct gray is really needed to make it "right".

You are correct, without instrumentation I will not be able to get the gray exact. Using several different gray test patterns that graduate from black to white, I do feel I can get it pretty close. (I feel I notice slight red/green/blue shifts as I adjust the gain or bias of each in different areas of the test pattern and try to get them all to look the same tone of gray).
Quote:


It is important to use one of the test DVDs (but NOT Avia - it has some slight gray scale tracking issues) in making these adjustments - particularly useful for visual tweaking is the stepped gray scale pattern.

The link I posted above has some stepped gray scale patterns as well as many other patterns. Without instrumentation or a color card to compare to, the color ones don't do me much good other than to verify the color appears uniform across the display. I do like that many of these are for 1080 display. What test DVD do you recommend and how effective can a DVD be since it's likely 480i (or are there higher res images which you simply read into a computer to display)?
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post #734 of 3250 Old 09-15-2006, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jimmyv View Post

What test DVD do you recommend and how effective can a DVD be since it's likely 480i (or are there higher res images which you simply read into a computer to display)?

Well for these gray ramp images the particular scan rate are not important for SM white balance adjustments - the adjustments are global. If you are using the User Menu "White Balance" controls you should probably find the best settings with the DVD input and then use the same settings for the other inputs.

I don't recommend any particular DVD for the Gray Ramp - except that the Avia DVD does have a slight color error from 30IRE down. But, if you have that DVD, just turn the COLOR control down, to assure that the image is B&W

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post #735 of 3250 Old 09-15-2006, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

...and there is no room to add a calibration ($200-$400) into the equation...

Dave - I'd be happy to pay you $200-$400 to properly calibrate my set. How soon can you be here? What, you say travel from the Rochester, NY area to the St. Paul, MN area is extra? Well then I guess not.

Thanks for the information you are sharing though.
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post #736 of 3250 Old 09-15-2006, 10:34 PM
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Q: I heard about this "LPF" issue that messes with 1080i and reduces resolution or sharpness, how can I fix it?



The following is a post submitted by Googer(thx again googer). Use at own risk.




In the service menu, get to the "WEM SERVICE" menu (should be a pair of Jump's after first getting into it). Then, navigate using 2 to the "108 sharp xspp_ccp.spf" menu. Then, use 1 to navigate up to "014 YFLR". On the HDMI input I was using (input 6), the default setting for this was 5. Setting it to 6 or 7 (using 3 on the remote) did the trick. Don't forget to write it with mute + enter when you're done. Note that you likely need to set this per input and possibly per resolution but I would warn you that different values look as though they might mean different things depending on the resolution / input - for example, on 480i on the same input, the default was 0 (which looked fine already) and setting it to 7 would cause the image to get really screwed up. So, YMMV but at least you all know which basic area (and which setting) in the SM you should be playing with. Good luck![/quote]

I never saw the "WEM Service" when I went into the service menu. I own a sony a KDS-50A2000 is there a different service menu that I just don't have???
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post #737 of 3250 Old 09-15-2006, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by visionary311 View Post

Q: I heard about this "LPF" issue that messes with 1080i and reduces resolution or sharpness, how can I fix it?



The following is a post submitted by Googer(thx again googer). Use at own risk.




In the service menu, get to the "WEM SERVICE" menu (should be a pair of Jump's after first getting into it). Then, navigate using 2 to the "108 sharp xspp_ccp.spf" menu. Then, use 1 to navigate up to "014 YFLR". On the HDMI input I was using (input 6), the default setting for this was 5. Setting it to 6 or 7 (using 3 on the remote) did the trick. Don't forget to write it with mute + enter when you're done. Note that you likely need to set this per input and possibly per resolution but I would warn you that different values look as though they might mean different things depending on the resolution / input - for example, on 480i on the same input, the default was 0 (which looked fine already) and setting it to 7 would cause the image to get really screwed up. So, YMMV but at least you all know which basic area (and which setting) in the SM you should be playing with. Good luck!

I never saw the "WEM Service" when I went into the service menu. I own a sony a KDS-50A2000 is there a different service menu that I just don't have???[/quote]


Are you pressing the JUMP button?? I too could not find the WEM service until I actually pressed the JUMP key..

Hope that helps..
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post #738 of 3250 Old 09-16-2006, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

the Avia DVD does have a slight color error from 30IRE down. But, if you have that DVD, just turn the COLOR control down, to assure that the image is B&W

Now here's an interesting concept, to properly adjust white balance, turn the color down so the image is B&W!

So you are saying that by removing all color contribution from the source signal, the B&W (shades of gray) image that remains will allow you to adjust the R, G, B gain and bias to get an image in true shades of gray meaning the white balance of the system is correct, then any color you see when you turn the color control back up is purely from the signal source?

That seems logical and a good approach. Or have I mis-understood what you meant by your comment about the Avia disc?
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post #739 of 3250 Old 09-16-2006, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyv View Post

Now here's an interesting concept, to properly adjust white balance, turn the color down so the image is B&W!

So you are saying that by removing all color contribution from the source signal, the B&W (shades of gray) image that remains will allow you to adjust the R, G, B gain and bias to get an image in true shades of gray meaning the white balance of the system is correct, then any color you see when you turn the color control back up is purely from the signal source?

That seems logical and a good approach. Or have I mis-understood what you meant by your comment about the Avia disc?

Bingo: You have it!

HOWEVER, I have seen others claim that some Sony sets screw with the color temp when you turn the color down. I have never observed this though.

Dave Hancock
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post #740 of 3250 Old 09-16-2006, 09:13 AM
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To get to the white balance settings in the service menu, how do you find the "3 WB" section in the panel area? I can only find the "2 WB" section which allows me to make the various adjustments. I am going by Googer's post on his coworker's settings. Thanks.

Matt

Matt
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post #741 of 3250 Old 09-16-2006, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mdanderson View Post

To get to the white balance settings in the service menu, how do you find the "3 WB" section in the panel area? I can only find the "2 WB" section which allows me to make the various adjustments. I am going by Googer's post on his coworker's settings. Thanks.

Matt

My guess is that '3' was a typo. I also only saw 2WB and did my adjustments there.
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post #742 of 3250 Old 09-16-2006, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jimmyv View Post

My guess is that '3' was a typo. I also only saw 2WB and did my adjustments there.

Thanks for the info. I will make my adjustments there.

Matt
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post #743 of 3250 Old 09-16-2006, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mdanderson View Post

To get to the white balance settings in the service menu, how do you find the "3 WB" section in the panel area? I can only find the "2 WB" section which allows me to make the various adjustments. I am going by Googer's post on his coworker's settings. Thanks.

Matt

The white balance settings in the USER menu (under Advanced Picture settings) should be all you need to do a D65 calibration. Just set the color temp to Warm 2 to begin with. With just a few clicks on those controls I was able to dial in D65 with a dE of 0-3 from 10-100 IRE - no service menu related adjustments required.
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post #744 of 3250 Old 09-16-2006, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

The white balance settings in the USER menu (under Advanced Picture settings) should be all you need to do a D65 calibration. Just set the color temp to Warm 2 to begin with. With just a few clicks on those controls I was able to dial in D65 with a dE of 0-3 from 10-100 IRE - no service menu related adjustments required.

That's fine, and saves the concern about getting into that NASTY Service Menu and screwing things up.

BUT, I believe that each input has its own set of user settings (a big plus for the Sony over some of the JVCs I've seen). As a result you need to set this for EACH input that you use. A practical approach is to write down those Gain/Bias values, and duplicate those on the Custom settings for each of the inputs that you use.

Dave Hancock
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post #745 of 3250 Old 09-16-2006, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyv View Post

My guess is that '3' was a typo. I also only saw 2WB and did my adjustments there.

Yes that's a typo (or rather I was going by memory for where it was in the SM because I omitted that bit in my notes ) - I'll edit my settings post.
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post #746 of 3250 Old 09-17-2006, 02:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muad'dib View Post

I never saw the "WEM Service" when I went into the service menu. I own a sony a KDS-50A2000 is there a different service menu that I just don't have???


Are you pressing the JUMP button?? I too could not find the WEM service until I actually pressed the JUMP key..

Hope that helps..
[/quote]


That's exactly what I needed to do. Thanks for the help
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post #747 of 3250 Old 09-17-2006, 01:05 PM
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I'm confused about setting the white up. I used Avia and never could get the white line to disappear with the picture setting. Also, what setup in the Avia setup would I ever adjust the White Balance controls and how do you do it? I have every other basic setting setup like it should be but I'm just confused on what to do with the White.
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post #748 of 3250 Old 09-17-2006, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by gogators93 View Post

I'm confused about setting the white up. I used Avia and never could get the white line to disappear with the picture setting. Also, what setup in the Avia setup would I ever adjust the White Balance controls and how do you do it? I have every other basic setting setup like it should be but I'm just confused on what to do with the White.


I have the same question as well...

On other LCD based t.v's, when adjusting the contrast, the white liines will dissapear, but on the SXRD, no matter how high I go, the lines stay.. (on my snazzio media server, if I adjust contrast, the lines will go away - but this is on a the source side- before t.v. doing it)

Is there a way?? without equipment (isf meters)?

Thanks..
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post #749 of 3250 Old 09-17-2006, 06:50 PM
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i have a 50a2000
i know there are various settings depending on game play or sport watching or sd channel watching

my tv is when watching sporting events .....
custom:
iris auto1
picture 75
bright 55
color 52
color temp neutral
sharp 65
other setting are all medium except white is high\\
what are ur settings for watchign sproting events..???


game settings
vivid
pic 80
bright 60
color 55
sharp 80
what are some of your guys setttings when playing xbox360 ??
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post #750 of 3250 Old 09-18-2006, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muad'dib View Post

I have the same question as well...

On other LCD based t.v's, when adjusting the contrast, the white liines will dissapear, but on the SXRD, no matter how high I go, the lines stay.. (on my snazzio media server, if I adjust contrast, the lines will go away - but this is on a the source side- before t.v. doing it)

Is there a way?? without equipment (isf meters)?

Thanks..


you make a good point. calibrating these digital displays isn't nearly as simple as the old CRT's. Sounds like we need a good SXRD primer for calibration....
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