Looking for a UPS solution - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 07-31-2006, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Greetings all,

this week or next I am (finally) purchasing my Samsung HL-S5086w 50" 720p DLP tv and I was hoping for some advice on a UPS to protect my new tv, and the HTPC that will be attached, from power surges and power outtages.

Does anyone know the power draw of this tv? Would 1500VA be enough?

APC's website shows that their 1500VA UPS would be able to keep an 800 watt draw for ~4 minutes. 800 watts was the maximum allowable listed in their estimations, and I chose that for a (hopefully) worst case scenario since I do not know the power draw on this tv.

Do UPS companies still have warranties up to x amount of dollars if your stuff gets fried while it is attached?

Any advice on which unit and/or brand would be great.

thanks,

wimclend
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post #2 of 29 Old 07-31-2006, 12:40 PM
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samsung lists a 200 watt draw for the HL-S5086w . You can then use the APC runtime calculator on their website to find the ups that meets your needs.
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post #3 of 29 Old 07-31-2006, 01:47 PM
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I just ordered a Pure AV AP30800-10 from Amazon for $160. It lists retail for $599.
After delevery it was $191. It is awesome. Its 1200VA/640W which is plenty. Most power outages last one a minute or two. And if you think that it will last longer you turn your equipment off. This will run the bulb lamp on your TV for MORE than long enough. And an amazing deal. At that price I might just buy a second.

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post #4 of 29 Old 07-31-2006, 02:51 PM
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I use this:

http://monstercable.com/power/produc...ptible%20Power

I picked it up online for about $200. It's worked great for me so far.

I looked at the Pure AV myself but I decided to try the monster brand unit instead. Either should work great for you.
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post #5 of 29 Old 07-31-2006, 09:19 PM
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I recommend the Belkin 1500VA Dual Form Factor Small Enterprise UPS with AVR
(MPN: F6C1500TWRK). It can be had for less than $150 online. It can be horizontally racked or stand vertical with the included stand. I have purchased this model for work with good success. When the little APC BK350 on my JVC dies I'll get one of these. It has lots of battery backup plug ins and also claims to do line conditioning. With my APC I can only plug the TV, PC, and my DVR into battery backup and my surround sound is plugged into surge protection only side. Annoying to have the surround sound shut off while everything else stays on during a power blip.

The only complaint I have seen on the Belkin is that it does not have quite as long a battery run time as it should for a 1500VA unit. But that is from people using it for servers in a commercial environment. For carrying your AV equipment through short power interruptions or giving you time to shut everything down (and in the case of your TV cool down) it will be more than sufficient.
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post #6 of 29 Old 08-01-2006, 05:38 AM
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I can't really see a requirement to purchase a 800W-1500W UPS to provide short-term "cool-down" power to a DLP set that has a 200-300W power requirement. As soon as you notice the power mains have disappeared while the set is operating, you are probably going to turn it off, which reduces the power requirement to only a few watts while the cooling fan(s) continue their operation for an extra minute or so (max), and then the set standby power is only on the order of ~ 1watt.

I purchased an APC 500VA unit (~300W capacity) that will hold my Sammy set IN FULL OPERATION for several minutes (gives me time to power it down gracefully if the mains disappear while I am in the middle of M*A*S*H or whatever) and STILL provide plenty of time for the follow-on 30-60 sec cool down fan power requirements.

So unless you are powering other equipment as well, I don't think there is any practical gain in over-spec'ing the UPS just for DLP cool-down protection.

...just my $.01 worth...

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post #7 of 29 Old 08-01-2006, 10:20 AM
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Keep checking Ebay until you find a Liebert GXT2 1000VA for ~$100

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post #8 of 29 Old 08-01-2006, 10:31 AM
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Wow!
Why are you people buy such powerfull devices!

Couple of weeks ago I bought APC® Back-UPS ES 650, 650VA/390 Watt from Office Depot. It cost me $22.49 after $10 coupon and $30 mail rebate.

APC makes one of the best UPS on the market and my 205W JVC 52" G787 can run 15 minutes on this one.
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post #9 of 29 Old 08-01-2006, 10:37 AM
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a normal ups could harm your electronics, they output a square wave instead of an ac sine wave. the rms voltage of a square wave is significantly higher than that of a sine wave.
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post #10 of 29 Old 08-01-2006, 10:39 AM
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I would suggest you get a 1200 one. Some people say that you only need a small one and that is true if you want to rush to turn everything off every time the power goes off for a few minutes. Most power outages last less than 5 mintues. With my new Pure AV AP30800-10 I dont have to turn anything off when the power goes out unless its going to be off for awhile. Also keep in mind that if your VCR, DVR, ect looses power while you are away it wont record your shows. You want something to keep them running for as long as possible. The Pure AV also looks cool. Also it outputs a sinewave not a square one. This is important.

I cant seem to get it to show up..... but here is a pic.
LL

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post #11 of 29 Old 08-01-2006, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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thanks everyone for the replies

I ended up buying the Belkin 1500VA UPS from CompUSA. They have it for $100 after a $60 mail in rebate.

went with the 1500 VA because I forgot that I would also want my Audio Receiver plugged into it as well so I dont have to buy a seperate surge protector for it.
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post #12 of 29 Old 08-01-2006, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wimclend View Post

thanks everyone for the replies

I ended up buying the Belkin 1500VA UPS from CompUSA. They have it for $100 after a $60 mail in rebate.

went with the 1500 VA because I forgot that I would also want my Audio Receiver plugged into it as well so I dont have to buy a seperate surge protector for it.

Good choice and a great deal!
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post #13 of 29 Old 08-01-2006, 08:04 PM
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I think you'll regret going for the Belkin over a Liebert or even an APC.

"Vintage" is good for wine, not for A/V equipment.

-Dan D.
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post #14 of 29 Old 08-01-2006, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baloo- View Post

a normal ups could harm your electronics, they output a square wave instead of an ac sine wave. the rms voltage of a square wave is significantly higher than that of a sine wave.

Mostly manufacturer FUD to get you to by expensive things. Old UPS's and very cheap new ones have crappy inverters that only output a square waveform. This can be bad, but all the ones listed in this thread (except the Liebert and Monster) output a modified square sine wave. So unless you plan on plugging in something with a motor, a charger pack for your cordless drill, a laser printer, scientific measuring equipment or a digital clock, then you will probably be fine. I suppose it is possible that there are VCRs that use the AC frequency to keep time and in that case there is a chance it will screw up the clock. All the DVRs I've seen get their time from the network. Modified sine wave can also cause RF noise. You might hear a hum from your speakers that wasn't there before the UPS. Some say there are Plasma displays that don't like modified sine wave either but I kind of doubt it. IMO, if your gear has an issue with it, I would say it's crappy electronics in that piece of equipment. But some might consider that rude so...

If you are really concerned, get a UPS that outputs a sine wave. There are lots of them out there and they aren't that much more expensive. The Liebert listed is one of these. It is also a true on-line (dual conversion) type which is why it is so expensive. That type also provides the best protection. Line-interactive models should do you fine but I don't recommend the standby design (I think the Back-UPS ES is one of these, but then again for $23...)

I have no idea what design the Monster uses or what kind of waveform it outputs in battery mode since they don't bother listing silly details like that on their website or even in the user manual. This seems par for the course for them. Empirical evidence would seem to show that they put more money into marketing and lawyers than their actual products, but maybe that's just my experience.
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post #15 of 29 Old 08-02-2006, 04:13 AM
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skeeball,

Do you know if the Belkin UPS PRO 800 outputs a true sine wave, so you could connect all kinds of A/V equipment to it?
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post #16 of 29 Old 08-02-2006, 06:41 AM
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Quote:


With my new Pure AV AP30800-10 I dont have to turn anything off when the power goes out unless its going to be off for awhile. Also keep in mind that if your VCR, DVR, ect looses power while you are away it wont record your shows. You want something to keep them running for as long as possible. The Pure AV also looks cool. Also it outputs a sinewave not a square one. This is important.

Check out this rather "stale" thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...tion+Questions

It seems that the Monster UPS and the PureAV AP30800 both output something other than sine waves, more like a stepped square wave (look at the .jpg image in post #58 for an o'scope view of the Monster output). I looked with an oscilloscope at the output of the APC BE500R UPA I have connected to my Sammy HL-S5087, while I pulled the wall plug. Expectedly, the nice clean utility-grade sine wave output changed over to a stepped square-wave approximation of a sine, and the Sammy kept right on going without a problem. I plugged the UPS back into the wall, and the output switched back to the utility mains power after a second or two.

FYI, I looked at the schematic of the Sammy input power supply. The first thing that the incoming 120Vac "sees" is an input EMI filter (built up a tranzorb, resistor, capacitors, and common-mode inductor) as expected for a switch-mode power supply. This feeds a couple of full-wave bridge rectifiers, and the rest is typical switching power supply technology.

Bottom line IMHO is that, while the outputs of the less-expensive UPS units (APC, Monster, PureAV, etc. - if the marketing stuff does not specifically say "pure sine wave", it probably is just a stepped square wave output) are pretty dirty, the input power supply components in my Sammy DLP could care less about the poor sinewave approximation coming out of my APC UPS, much less be damaged by the waveform of the stepped-square wave power input.

That said, I may STILL upgrade someday to something like a APC SmartUPS which I understand DOES include a true sinewave inverter. I can probably use the inverter output to power something else which truly NEEDS a pure sinewave power supply.

That's a long post, but just one person's opinion...

hsvham
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post #17 of 29 Old 08-02-2006, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa View Post

skeeball,

Do you know if the Belkin UPS PRO 800 outputs a true sine wave, so you could connect all kinds of A/V equipment to it?

Is there a model number, like FC6800?? or something? The Belkins that output sine wave seem to be the Regulator Pro series.
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post #18 of 29 Old 08-02-2006, 07:32 AM
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>>Is there a model number, like FC6800?? or something?

The one I was looking at had this number: F6C800, it's a Belkin Universal Series UPS.
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post #19 of 29 Old 08-02-2006, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa View Post

>>Is there a model number, like FC6800?? or something?

The one I was looking at had this number: F6C800, it's a Belkin Universal Series UPS.

It's a modified sine wave according to the manual on the website.
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post #20 of 29 Old 08-02-2006, 08:07 AM
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Can anyone describe their experience using an Opti-UPS PS500B or PS800B unit? I came across these models in a quick "sine wave UPS" search.

They claim to output a "pure" sine wave @ 3% harmonic distortion while on battery, with a 4ms transfer time, and the pricing seems quite attractive, $170-$200.

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post #21 of 29 Old 08-03-2006, 09:00 PM
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For those interested I have attached some screen shots of a Belkin 1000 PC grade ups and the Panamax 1500 HT UPS. As you can see the output when on battery for the Panamax is no different than a utility sine wave. Compared to the belkin PC UPS which has a squared wave output.

I have also posted the belkins voltage trace during a transfer to battery. I could not post the Panamax trace due to file size limitation but if any one is interested I can post another reply. But the Belkin had a spike up to 125 VAC and stayed there untill retransfer 10 seconds later. The panamax unit had an initial spike up to 121 VAC and settled down to 118.5 to 119 VAC before retransfer.

I have also compared the Belkin PC ups to an older trace I have of the Monster UPS 1000 and there is no difference in their output on battery.

What does it all mean? Use what you can afford, but if you consider your total investment I would think you would want a quality power supplement device as part of your system as well..
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post #22 of 29 Old 08-03-2006, 09:09 PM
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I spoke to my father about this issue. He has been an electronics tech for 40+ years and worked on tv's for most of that time. He basicly told me that unless you are running something that uses the true ac like large motors in a washer/dryer that it makes no difference at all. He said that even if the ups put out a full square wave it wouldnt matter, and that most newer ups's even the cheaper ones put out a signal that has more than one step in it so they are closer to a siqn wave.

So basicly the electronics turn that AC into DC, then step it up to whatever it wants and then sends it to whatever needs it. At least 2 steps before the power gets to what is using it. It just doesnt matter.

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post #23 of 29 Old 08-04-2006, 06:02 AM
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I have the Tripplite 1000HT LCD. Purchased for less than $100 dollars. Looks good and functions well. My only complaint is the dB loss for the coax connectors. My cable signal dropped about 3 dB after passing through the UPS.
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post #24 of 29 Old 08-04-2006, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxx_75 View Post

I spoke to my father about this issue. He has been an electronics tech for 40+ years and worked on tv's for most of that time. He basicly told me that unless you are running something that uses the true ac like large motors in a washer/dryer that it makes no difference at all. He said that even if the ups put out a full square wave it wouldnt matter, and that most newer ups's even the cheaper ones put out a signal that has more than one step in it so they are closer to a siqn wave.

So basicly the electronics turn that AC into DC, then step it up to whatever it wants and then sends it to whatever needs it. At least 2 steps before the power gets to what is using it. It just doesnt matter.

Thanks Maxx, that makes perfect sense.
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post #25 of 29 Old 08-04-2006, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxx_75 View Post

I spoke to my father about this issue. He has been an electronics tech for 40+ years and worked on tv's for most of that time. He basicly told me that unless you are running something that uses the true ac like large motors in a washer/dryer that it makes no difference at all. He said that even if the ups put out a full square wave it wouldnt matter, and that most newer ups's even the cheaper ones put out a signal that has more than one step in it so they are closer to a siqn wave.

So basicly the electronics turn that AC into DC, then step it up to whatever it wants and then sends it to whatever needs it. At least 2 steps before the power gets to what is using it. It just doesnt matter.


For the most part I agree. For what we mainly use the ups for (short term power) to allow for lamp cool down I don't think you would have any problems. If you are trying to utilize the UPS for longer term operation to run DVR's or even continue to operate the HT system during a 1/2 hour outage I would think you would want to supply the best quality power that you could.

I don't have a power quality analyzer at my disposal but I would be interested in seeing what level of harmonics and at what order they are present at when running on the simulated or square wave UPS output.

I would think that only the power supply in the device would be working slightly harder to create the same output that it was able to create on utility power or a true sinewave UPS. But if the harmonics are large enough it could raise the ground potential which could have an effect on other components sharing ground. Which is another reason why you should have a good ground connection between your wall outlet and your service panel.
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post #26 of 29 Old 08-07-2006, 11:53 AM
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Can anyone make a recommendation for me. I'm out of space so it cannot be a component size unit, so it will have to go behind the TV stand. I'm look for a UPS/Power conditioner for only my TV (Sony A2000) and my Tivo. So I only need two plugs.
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post #27 of 29 Old 08-07-2006, 03:00 PM
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I you are not looking for ant thing fancy and don't need extended run times. you might want to consuder

http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProdu...duct_Id=186802

The vertical form factor may fit your need.
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post #28 of 29 Old 11-16-2006, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxx_75 View Post

I just ordered a Pure AV AP30800-10 from Amazon for $160. It lists retail for $599.
After delevery it was $191. It is awesome. Its 1200VA/640W which is plenty. Most power outages last one a minute or two. And if you think that it will last longer you turn your equipment off. This will run the bulb lamp on your TV for MORE than long enough. And an amazing deal. At that price I might just buy a second.

do you have a link? i can't find it there for under 200... maybe it's no longer offered at that price...

Waiting For Neural Implants.
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post #29 of 29 Old 01-11-2007, 12:42 PM
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We were buying something else for 18 months payment plan so I decided to pick up and UPS for my DLP

I wanted at least 750w for my PS3 and TV and I wanted VOLTAGE REGULATION.

They had an APC one for $199 or a Geek Squad one for $162.

I went with the cheaper one and I like it because it tells input and output voltage, battery capacity, current load and est runtime (based on load).

With a 73" DLP it was using 250W and the PS3 (rated at 380W) used an additional 100W But it was still only using 50% capacity and would run for 10-15 minutes with that load.

Seems to work ok so far but no power outages yet so I'll re-review it when that happens.
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