Official Sony XBR2 (60" & 70") Owner's Thread - Page 227 - AVS Forum
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post #6781 of 12055 Old 08-16-2007, 07:30 PM
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Just wanted to drop a quick note regarding Accu-Cal and the calibration performed by Jeff Meier, whom I believe goes by UMR on these boards.

After hearing many glowing reports on Accu-Cal and specifically on Jeff I contacted him in November of last year. I will willing to wait for his next tour of the Seattle/Portland area and I finally got the work done on August of 2007.

Let me tell you it was well worth the wait. My gear includes a Sony 70 SXRD2, Denon 5800, Martin Logan SL3s, Logos center and sunfire sub.

Personally I was happy with the Sony before calibration but Jeff really made it shine. Apparently the panels were out of alignment from the factory and of course the contrast/brightness/colors were way off. The work performed with my sound system was nothing short of miraculous. I can't believe what I had been missing all these years.

Jeff was a pleasure to work with and well worth the wait. The price was more than reasonable as well. Heck it was less than $100/hr, a bargain considering that he had to travel from TX to get the work done.

Considering the amount of money we enthusiasts have tied up in our gear it is well worth it getting them professionally calibrated. Even with my modest investment in gear I feel that it was a bargain.

Thanks again Jeff and I hope you and yours are doing well.
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post #6782 of 12055 Old 08-17-2007, 02:33 AM
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Is it normal for the blacks to have a blue hue to them when watching tv in a dark room? The color black looks fine, like if someone has a black shirt or black letters on a white screen. But when watching a dark movie the shadow detail area has a bluish hue to it, especially the lower left corner. I returned my first XBR2 for this reason, but this one has the same lower left corner problem. Its really distracting. Also on a totally black screen you can really see the bluish hue. I understand that there is always some ambient light on the screen but should it make the screen look blue? I tried adjusting the blue out of the picture but had no luck. Thanks for the help.
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post #6783 of 12055 Old 08-17-2007, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marc454 View Post

...Considering the amount of money we enthusiasts have tied up in our gear it is well worth it getting them professionally calibrated. Even with my modest investment in gear I feel that it was a bargain.

Thanks again Jeff and I hope you and yours are doing well.

Thank you Marc. It was a pleasure working with you.
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post #6784 of 12055 Old 08-20-2007, 04:22 AM
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anyone know, or can send me to a link of instructions on how to use the service menu to converge the xbr2 60 inch? thanks.
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post #6785 of 12055 Old 08-20-2007, 08:54 AM
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Banding issue?

I've been bothered by banding on my KDS-R60XBR2 TV for some time, and after doing some searches on Google I seem to be the only one experiencing this. I've noticed it on both HDMI inputs (one from a PS3, visible on games and BR movies, the other from a Mac Mini hooked up via DVI->HDMI), and a component cable (Sony DVD player).

Has anyone else experienced banding problems with this TV? It's still under warranty so I can get it fixed (or a new one if it can't be fixed).

Thanks for the help,
Gord
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post #6786 of 12055 Old 08-20-2007, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post

Banding issue?

I've been bothered by banding on my KDS-R60XBR2 TV for some time, and after doing some searches on Google I seem to be the only one experiencing this. I've noticed it on both HDMI inputs (one from a PS3, visible on games and BR movies, the other from a Mac Mini hooked up via DVI->HDMI), and a component cable (Sony DVD player).

Has anyone else experienced banding problems with this TV? It's still under warranty so I can get it fixed (or a new one if it can't be fixed).

Thanks for the help,
Gord

i don't recall reading any postings concerning banding on the RXBR2. it doesn't sound like a cable problem since you are experiencing it with HDMI and component. I'd call for service.

Let the awe and mystery of a journey unlike any other begin
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post #6787 of 12055 Old 08-20-2007, 09:32 AM
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sorry
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post #6788 of 12055 Old 08-20-2007, 06:41 PM
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Thanks Strutter. Yeah, it's not a cable issue since it's happening on 3 different inputs, with 3 different cables. I'll give them a shout to come and service my baby

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post #6789 of 12055 Old 08-21-2007, 09:51 AM
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Wondering if anyone else is having a problem with their picture going black for a few seconds, then returning. It's happened about 6 or 7 times now on my new 70XBR. Usually happens after the set's been on for an hour or two. After it happens, I usually have to reset the clock the next time I turn the TV on. It says "due to a power interruption" the clock needs to be re-set. However, there was no interruption of house power, only the Sony screen going black for a few seconds. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Thanks.

--Jim
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post #6790 of 12055 Old 08-21-2007, 10:28 AM
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yes, call for service, sounds like a bad power supply..or try plugging into a different outlet and see if it still happens.
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post #6791 of 12055 Old 08-21-2007, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by project smfj View Post

anyone know, or can send me to a link of instructions on how to use the service menu to converge the xbr2 60 inch? thanks.

I don't believe there's anything in the service menu to "converge" the set in the way you could converge a CRT... on section of the screen at a time. There are service menu controls that affect the entire screen at once, I think at a pixel or 1/2 pixel at a time (not sure which). So if you have just one area of the screen "off" but you're OK elsewhere, you can't fix that sort of thing with the Service Menu. I don't even think doing something drastic, like moving the mirror, would fix that... it's probably an alignment issue in the optical block/light engine.
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post #6792 of 12055 Old 08-21-2007, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post

Banding issue?

I've been bothered by banding on my KDS-R60XBR2 TV for some time, and after doing some searches on Google I seem to be the only one experiencing this. I've noticed it on both HDMI inputs (one from a PS3, visible on games and BR movies, the other from a Mac Mini hooked up via DVI->HDMI), and a component cable (Sony DVD player).

Has anyone else experienced banding problems with this TV? It's still under warranty so I can get it fixed (or a new one if it can't be fixed).

Thanks for the help,
Gord

If by "banding" you mean color contouring wherein you see distinct steps in "fades" instead of a smooth transition from one color to another... EVERYBODY is seeing that on their sets from time to time. Whether they have noticed it or not, is another question. Some people just don't see it, at least until it is pointed out. I see it on the XBR2 with some regularity. On the MARVEL logo for example... bright red around the letters fades to a black background. You can see steps in the red instead of a smooth transition. The Roving Mars Blu-ray disc is LOADED with color contouring, worst example I've ever seen. Ice Age: The Meltdown has contouring in the ice in 1 place and in the night sky in another place... neither one lasts more than a few seconds, but there are there. Yet other movies have NO color contouring anywhere through the whole movie in spite of having plenty of opportunities for color contouring. Fog, steam and smoke are other places color contouring can be visible.

The issue is that we are still getting 8-bit color in these displays and disc players, even high-def disc players. HDMI 1.1 and 1.2 support a MAXIMUM of 8-bits per color. That's just not enough steps to avoid visible contouring problems in fades (color to color, color to black, color to white, white to black, etc)... UNLESS you use appropriate mastering tricks. It is POSSIBLE to avoid color contouring in 8-bit color, but only if the person//people doing the mastering are paying attention. The less contouring you see from any given source, the better the mastering job.

There's another issue too... video compression, rampant on SD cable and satellite programming promotes color contouring even if it wasn't present in the original program. Even HD satellite and cable apply so much compression that contouring can be ADDED to the program at almost any point from the network to the cable provider.

HDMI 1.3 and higher support 8-bit, 10-bit, 12-bit, and 16-bit color. 12-bit color does away with color contouring COMPLETELY without anybody having to pay attention to anything during mastering. 10-bit color is an improvement, but it's not perfect unless you have the mastering person fixing the problems that 10-bits alone can't fix. To make color banding go away completely, we will need a player with HDMI 1.3 (or higher) AND 12-bit or more color datapath (HDMI 1.3 itself does NOTHING but allow more bits per color, the player and everyting in the chain has to have more bits in their color path also), a video display with HDMI 1.3(or higher) and 12-bit or higher color datapath, and software (movie discs) with 12-bit or more color encoded on the disc (which takes more space).

So for the present, the only thing that will stop color contouring is for the movie mastering to be done carefully and for no extra compression to be added to the original contouring-free program material. This is difficult to achieve in the bandwidth-starved cable and satellite arenas.

If you are seeing more than occasional color banding, give some examples so we can check HD-DVDs or Blu-ray discs for banding in the same places you see it (need a time index or some other way to find the same spot in the movie).
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post #6793 of 12055 Old 08-21-2007, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyFunBoater View Post

Yep, I've had the same fan failure with four red blinking lights. I endured two service visits and three fan replacements. Tapping the TV on the back typically temporarily would fix the problem. We never figured out if the problem was a bad connection or a sticky fan. But the TV has been fine for at least four months.

Good luck.

Thanks, it worked for me for about a week. Now even after the tapping, the set turns off in about 30min, I noticed the fans sound weak or sometimes turn off during use. The real problem is I cannot find my receipt. The set was manufactured OCT 2006.
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post #6794 of 12055 Old 08-21-2007, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ahow View Post

I discussed this problem with HappyFunBoater via private messaging and basically, you need to replace the fans. As he mentioned, tapping or taking the back panel off MAY alleviate the problem temporarily. I believe there are 4 fans that can be replaced. Since the closest service center is quite a ways away, I would recommend you ask them to replace all 4 fans. My problems took 3 visits and about 3 months to rectify since they only replaced a fan or two at a time. If you don't have it already, the extended warranty might pay for itself just for this problem.

Thanks for the info, I will be contacting Sony today.
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post #6795 of 12055 Old 08-21-2007, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4MM View Post

Thanks, it worked for me for about a week. Now even after the tapping, the set turns off in about 30min, I noticed the fans sound weak or sometimes turn off during use. The real problem is I cannot find my receipt. The set was manufactured OCT 2006.

Given the manufacturing date I would hope Sony would cover it under the one year warranty. Also, with some very unscientific squinting it would seem that fan problems are pretty prevelant in this forum. I'm sure Sony will do the right thing.
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post #6796 of 12055 Old 08-21-2007, 04:30 PM
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The SXRD does not introduce any color banding artefacts of its own, but it will show them if they are in the source.
I have a calibrated Sony G500 21” CRT reference monitor running side by side with my 70” SXRD, both fed from my HTPC. The CRT is full analogue and completely incapable of generating any digital artefacts such as posterization (color banding) and the SXRD always look as good or better then the CRT reference.

In my experience HDDVD and BluRay content in VC1 or h.264 format is definitely not free of color banding problems. In fact I see more problems with those formats then with Mpeg2.
I recently had the chance to compare an animated title I have on 1080p BluRay with a low data rate SD Mpeg2 version transmitted by my Satellite service. The low grade Mpeg2 version had no banding problems at all, where as the BluRay VC1 version certainly does on the same scenes.

As far as I know, HDMI like DVI before it has always supported 10bit video.
HDMI 1.3 supports 12bit and 16bit, but since all video is 8bit and HDDVD and Bluray don’t support more then 8bit, what’s the point?
Well produced good quality 8bit video should never have color banding problems, and never does on my SXRD. In fact it is very rare for me to see any posterization issues with any source.

All video is processed by my HTPC with nVidia 8800 (10bit processing) and transferred to my SXRD via HDMI in 1080p. The SXRD also uses 10bit processing.
10bit processing is plenty to ensure that banding is not introduced by the processing device.
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post #6797 of 12055 Old 08-21-2007, 06:46 PM
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Thanks for the info guys.

I've noticed it more on video games and my computer than DVDs, though I noticed the problem on Harry Potter (the first one) when I selected the Audio setup. The fade from the picture of the owl to the audio options page had a noticeable banding issue on my TV. I've looked at some images on the TV as well; the FrontRow screen from the Mac has a visible issue in the lower gradient.

I didn't notice these problems on my CRT display (32" XBR-400).

Gord
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post #6798 of 12055 Old 08-22-2007, 03:32 AM
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Games and menus often have Posterization problems, don’t blame the SXRD. Any PC generated screens, like the Front Row image will have similar issues, again don’t blame the SXRD.

A big wide screen CRT TV is going to hide a lot of problems. They just don’t have the size or clarity of the SXRD and you would also need to sit very close to it for a fair comparison.
A high grade CRT PC monitor is many times clearer and more revealing then any wide screen CRT TV.

If a good CRT PC monitor shows no banding, but the SXRD does, the SXRD is defective.
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post #6799 of 12055 Old 08-22-2007, 07:36 AM
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Does anyone know of calibration experts in (or coming to) the Minneapolis area? My 60" XBR2 is shipping on Monday and I'd like to get this looking good as soon as possible. Thanks.
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post #6800 of 12055 Old 08-22-2007, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

I believe Sony has a procedure to reset the TVGOS. I would call them on how to do this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zrokewl24 View Post

...they gave me a reset procedure for the TV. I tried to use the 'return to shipping condition' procedure in the service manual and it didn't work by the way ... This procedure will restore all factory settings back to default without messing around in the Service menu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCIFRTHS View Post

Just to clarify, the procedure you listed will only reset the TV Guide settings. Correct?

Many TVGOS users seek a way to clear TVGOS NVRAM and reprogram the EPG. The set-specific procedure is seldom documented, and I received no reply from SONY when I wrote them for one. But few with a umr-calibrated set would jeopardize their PQ for that. So, can anyone confirm that zrokewl24's procedure in post #6750 preserves calibrated "factory defaults"?
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post #6801 of 12055 Old 08-22-2007, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Todd_L View Post

Does anyone know of calibration experts in (or coming to) the Minneapolis area? My 60" XBR2 is shipping on Monday and I'd like to get this looking good as soon as possible. Thanks.

The good ones do tours. These are members here at AVS.

UMR at www.accucalhd.com

Eliab and David Abrams at www.avical.com

You can use the "calibration" link at the bottom of my post to check owner's reports about their work.
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post #6802 of 12055 Old 08-22-2007, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4MM View Post

The real problem is I cannot find my receipt. The set was manufactured OCT 2006.

Depending on where you purchased your set, the store where you purchased your set from could probably print you some sort of receipt. I know this has worked for me in the past. Its definitely worth a shot.
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post #6803 of 12055 Old 08-23-2007, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

The good [ISF Calibrators] do tours.

Are you sure you didn't mean "SOME good ISF Calibrators do tours."?

Are you sure there aren't perfectly good ISF Calibrators who do NOT do tours because of personal preference, working for a local/regional employer, or other perfectly good reasons?
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post #6804 of 12055 Old 08-23-2007, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd_L View Post

Does anyone know of calibration experts in (or coming to) the Minneapolis area? My 60" XBR2 is shipping on Monday and I'd like to get this looking good as soon as possible. Thanks.

You need a good 100 hours or more on the lamp before you want a calibrator in there. And you also want to make sure your set doesn't have any problems that would prevent a calibration. You sure don't want to schedule-in a traveling calibrator right now, before you have even power-ed up the set only to have to wave him off if it turns out there is some problem with your set.

Also, if you are going to use some new equipment with your new video display, like HD-DVD or Blu-ray player, you'll want to have that equipment there and working before your calibrator goes to work.
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post #6805 of 12055 Old 08-23-2007, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post

Thanks for the info guys.

I've noticed it more on video games and my computer than DVDs, though I noticed the problem on Harry Potter (the first one) when I selected the Audio setup. The fade from the picture of the owl to the audio options page had a noticeable banding issue on my TV. I've looked at some images on the TV as well; the FrontRow screen from the Mac has a visible issue in the lower gradient.

I didn't notice these problems on my CRT display (32" XBR-400).

Gord

I don't know all the details about this as I'm not using any game consoles with my XBR2, but there are several video standards as far as output signals. I don't know if your console has settings but you may want to see if there is some place you can select different video output modes... YCrCb, 16-234, or 0-255. 0-255 is the system used in PCs (256 steps per color, RGB). 16-234 is a "video RGB" standard where you are still using RGB data, but cutting off the most significant bits and least significant bits to give 218 steps per color. YCrCb is the predominant consumer video format (Y=luminance or black&white image plus 2 color-difference signals, Cr and Cb). Changing the mode your console is in, if you can, may give better results. Your connection mode to the XBR2 may also affect your results. I have zero experience with the VGA connection, but you will get a full-screen image from the console if you have an HDMI connection available and use that instead of VGA.
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post #6806 of 12055 Old 08-23-2007, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen View Post

In my experience HDDVD and BluRay content in VC1 or h.264 format is definitely not free of color banding problems. In fact I see more problems with those formats then with Mpeg2.
I recently had the chance to compare an animated title I have on 1080p BluRay with a low data rate SD Mpeg2 version transmitted by my Satellite service. The low grade Mpeg2 version had no banding problems at all, where as the BluRay VC1 version certainly does on the same scenes.


Color contouring is not limited to VC-1 mastering - I've seen color contouring in movies encoded in all 3 supported video codecs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen View Post

As far as I know, HDMI like DVI before it has always supported 10bit video.
HDMI 1.3 supports 12bit and 16bit, but since all video is 8bit and HDDVD and Bluray don't support more then 8bit, what's the point?
Well produced good quality 8bit video should never have color banding problems, and never does on my SXRD. In fact it is very rare for me to see any posterization issues with any source.

I thought HDMI 1.2 and earlier supported at least up to 10 bits too, but check out www.hdmi.org and see their HDMI 1.3 FAQ... in the first question, the second bullet states 1.3 supports 8, 10, 12, and 16 bits per color, but earlier HDMI versions were limited to 8 bits. I don't know if they made a mistake in their own FAQ or if that's the right information.

At any rate, the video on the discs is 8-bits and 8-bits does promote color banding, but you can stop it entirely in the mastering process by using dither to eliminate the dividing lines between the bands so transitions look smooth. I have to believe the mastering people are paying attention MOST of the time, but they still seem to miss doing whatever it is they do to stop the contouring way too often. Every HD disc I own or have rented that's a MARVEL title (live action or animation) has the MARVEL logo at the beginning of the movie... red surrounds the text and fades to black. There is always contouring in the red fade. Yet in other movie content where there are red fades, there is no contouring. So it must have SOMETHING to do with the mastering - either not using dithering when it should have been used or using too much compression at that particular point in time... compression will also promote color contouring.

When you said the XBR2 images look like your analog projector images, I assume you mean that when you see color contouring on one display, you see it in the same places on the other display also?
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post #6807 of 12055 Old 08-23-2007, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxdb View Post

Color contouring is not limited to VC-1 mastering - I've seen color contouring in movies encoded in all 3 supported video codecs.

I was not singling out VC1, all compression formats suffer banding.
There is often an assumption that BluRay or HDDVD content should be free of banding, and that if banding is observed while viewing those formats that the display is to blame. That is definitely false, as VC1 or h.264 compression is definitely not free of banding problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxdb View Post

At any rate, the video on the discs is 8-bits and 8-bits does promote color banding, but you can stop it entirely in the mastering process by using dither to eliminate the dividing lines between the bands so transitions look smooth. I have to believe the mastering people are paying attention MOST of the time, but they still seem to miss doing whatever it is they do to stop the contouring way too often. Every HD disc I own or have rented that's a MARVEL title (live action or animation) has the MARVEL logo at the beginning of the movie... red surrounds the text and fades to black. There is always contouring in the red fade. Yet in other movie content where there are red fades, there is no contouring. So it must have SOMETHING to do with the mastering - either not using dithering when it should have been used or using too much compression at that particular point in time... compression will also promote color contouring.

I don’t agree that 8 bit video is the major cause of banding or posterization, but manipulating 8 bit video with 8 bit processing will cause problems. 10bit or higher processing should always be used when manipulation 8 bit video to prevent rounding errors.

PC generated graphics of the type used in the MARVEL title are often problematic, but content shot on a camera should not be.

The major source of banding is video compression, even at high data rates. The new compression formats seem to be no better then Mpeg2 and are often worse in my experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxdb View Post

When you said the XBR2 images look like your analog projector images, I assume you mean that when you see color contouring on one display, you see it in the same places on the other display also?

I have a calibrated Sony G500 CRT PC monitor sitting in front of my SXRD. Both displays are driven by my HTPC and show the same content simultaneously for easy comparison.
In all cases where banding is visible on the SXRD (and that is not often) it is also visible on the analogue CRT. The SXRD can even be better then the CRT.
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post #6808 of 12055 Old 08-31-2007, 12:40 PM
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I finally got my Entertainment center for my 70" xbr2 built. I thought I would show it off to you guys.... Let me know what you think...




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post #6809 of 12055 Old 08-31-2007, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by tkbr0wn View Post

I finally got my Entertainment center for my 70" xbr2 built. I thought I would show it off to you guys.... Let me know what you think...



It's very nice.. Did u build that by yourself?
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post #6810 of 12055 Old 08-31-2007, 01:15 PM
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Yeah, it took about a month.
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