Official Sony XBR2 (60" & 70") Owner's Thread - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTTV Images View Post

It is the Gamma setting you are looking for. The Gamma control will increase the brightness of all the values between black and peak white. This will make the overall brightness of the source appear brighter. It will not effect , at all, black or peak white levels themselves.

KT

Thanks. Now there's the iris control. Like you said, Gamma only effects mid tone without effecting black and peak values. Iris however will (I think) effect overall light output effecting all aspects of the image.

I would think that using a setup DVD such as Video Essentials would help set the black level (brightness), however in real world situations we watch movies, not test patterns. So many times after setting black at black, the details in movie shadow areas usually seemed to be crushed. I usually have to boost the "brightness ie "black" level a little higher to see shadow detail.

Then again, sometimes it depends on the program and/or source.

Movies must be OAR, sports and movies must also have 5.1 audio, No EE or NO SALE!
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post #722 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 01:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jingrande@cox.ne View Post

What about the newer model, the HR20? Does it send DD5.1 over HDMI?

Yes, I have an HR20 and receive DD 5.1 to my AV receiver.
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post #723 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 01:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LesMoss View Post

The basic problem is that no TV today accepts 5.1 audio on its HDMI ports. I don't know why this is. (Anyone who knows, please explain.) Many sources can't do stereo on HDMI and simultaneously do 5.1 on the digital audio output.

The SA8300HD is in this category. The only easy out is to use a component connection and analog audio to the TV.

Its not that many sources can't do 5.1 and digital simultaneous over HDMI its that the spec says the audio that will be output matches the highest capability of the lowest capable component. In this case the the lowest capable component is the XBR2 since it only has 2 speakers so you get 2 channel audio.
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post #724 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTTV Images View Post

I would bet Mode 2 is probably correct most of the time. If you are unacustomed to 6500 degrees K white balance, it will take a while to get used to the correct color. Joe Kane (VDE creator) used to say- take 1-2 weeks and live with it and then see what colored shows look like. In essence you are probably used to 12-15000 degrees K -which is way too blue--then when you remove the blue at 6500 k the screen may look reddish at first as you have seen.

Try this--go outside of your house and look at the widows at night. if you see a blue glow inside the house the color TV is set too to blue a White balance -typically 1500 K.

Try it at Mode 2 ..it will be better than the upper settings --you'll like it.

KT

Are you saying that Mode 2 is closer to standard video white? I'm trying to remember, is the standard 6500k or 5500k? Anyway, Mode 2 from what you are saying is closer to the standard? Whites that look white rather than bluish or redish.

I always get it confused, 6500k for video? 5500k for color "daylight" film?
Makes me wonder if that's why movies usually seem to have a bit more of a red push then a video recorded image?

Like a digital camera, I can turn the temperature higher than standard white outside at high noon so the camera will compensate by adding more red to help take out the blue. Results....a warmer looking image.

I wonder if the same thing happens to filmed images (movies) shown with the video standard of 6500k?

Movies must be OAR, sports and movies must also have 5.1 audio, No EE or NO SALE!
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post #725 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 01:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wales View Post

XBR2s and grass

I'm on the fence between the 65831 Mits and these two sets. I saw one post that identified an allegedly clear difference between the sets--the Sonys displayed grass much more accurately, when, for example, watching motion in a football game. If true, this is a big deal to me. Has anyone else noticed this?

There is another thread with a poll regarding "alive grass" with posts that suggest all TVs and all sources have this problem or some other grass problem, while a post in the 831 thread suggests that any grass problem with the 831s is introduced by the new D* HD DVR with locals coming in MPEG 4. If anyone has an opinion on that let me know. That would mean the XBR2s would have a similar issue if using D* with non-OTA locals and the new HD DVR. Has anyone noticed this?


I was at a Showcase two days ago looking at a XBR2 and a Mits side by side. There was a Soccer game going on and I saw what the poster was talking about. The grass on the Sony looked clearer than what I was seeing on the Mits. In this case we can forget about the live grass comments since the two images were from the same bad source. The Sony still showed much more detail in the grass.

Movies must be OAR, sports and movies must also have 5.1 audio, No EE or NO SALE!
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post #726 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 02:27 AM
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Anyone know the service menu code for the XBR2s?

I'm finding the red push really annoying. I can't get a good Color setting. Set it up near 50, and most things look right, but anything with red looks way too vivid. Drop to 45 or even 40, and anything with some red in it looks good, but everything else looks washed out.

I know how red push works, and I know you can't fix it with R gain/bias. That's the wrong color space. You have to fix it when it's still Cr/Pr. Thus, if it's fixable, I'm assuming I have to get into the service menu.

Edit: I probably shouldn't be assuming it's red push, but it sure looks like red push.
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post #727 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 04:19 AM
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Here's another recent change to my settings that some people may want to know about:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiken View Post

  • DRC Mode: Mode 1 for true SD content. Mode 1 for true HD content. Mode 2 for SD content that has been scaled to HD externally (external scaler, some HD cable boxes, etc.). Obviously, if your external device may be scaling either SD or HD and the TV has no way of knowing which is coming in, you're kind of screwed. If so, use Mode 1, because it's okay for SD scaled to HD, while Mode 2 is not okay for true HD content. Note that if you're using an actual external scaler to generate 1080p, or maybe even 1080i, you probably don't want DRC on at all, since your external scaler is where that functionality should be happening. Likewise for a really good upconverting DVD player that already does much of what DRC does: either turn it off, or maybe use Mode 1.
  • DRC Palette: 1,1. Not sure yet, using other people's suggestion of 1,1 until I know better. Note that this is set per DRC mode, per resolution, per input, so you're going to have to set it up many times.

The important part is that you should definitely use Mode 2 for externally-scaled SD. This is actually what we're told in the manual, but I had to test it out before I believed it, and now that I see the results, I believe. It's actually a significant improvement to use Mode 2 in that case. It even smoothes out jaggy caption fonts.
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post #728 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AikenGhoti View Post

Anyone know the service menu code for the XBR2s?

I'm finding the red push really annoying. I can't get a good Color setting. Set it up near 50, and most things look right, but anything with red looks way too vivid. Drop to 45 or even 40, and anything with some red in it looks good, but everything else looks washed out.

I know how red push works, and I know you can't fix it with R gain/bias. That's the wrong color space. You have to fix it when it's still Cr/Pr. Thus, if it's fixable, I'm assuming I have to get into the service menu.

Edit: I probably shouldn't be assuming it's red push, but it sure looks like red push.


I'm with you on the possible red push. Does entering the service mode void the warranty or anything?

You might try the code listed here:
http://www.bruzzi.ws/plasma-faq/showthread.php?t=146

I'm too chixen to try.

Thanks also for keeping your settings list updated. Great idea to put the link your sig line.
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post #729 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AikenGhoti View Post

Here's another recent change to my settings that some people may want to know about:



The important part is that you should definitely use Mode 2 for externally-scaled SD. This is actually what we're told in the manual, but I had to test it out before I believed it, and now that I see the results, I believe. It's actually a significant improvement to use Mode 2 in that case. It even smoothes out jaggy caption fonts.


I think the palette might be a very powerful tool. I need to figure a good steady source to test. Does the palatte really save per resolution, per Mode? This one has been hard to keep track of.
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post #730 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AikenGhoti View Post

Anyone know the service menu code for the XBR2s?

I'm finding the red push really annoying. I can't get a good Color setting. Set it up near 50, and most things look right, but anything with red looks way too vivid. Drop to 45 or even 40, and anything with some red in it looks good, but everything else looks washed out.

The SXRD color primaries are known to be way oversaturated with some more than others. This nonlinearity is largely uncorrectable. Some posted an SXRD picture of an African American the other day and the orange tint was unnatural.
Please quit being objective and enjoy the Sony brand name
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post #731 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sliderhss View Post

I will have to say that this TV exceeds my expectations......

I will be posting a detailed review with several source components soon. I will say this though...... The new TiVo series 3 blows away any of the comcast HD boxes and I had two in my house to compare it to. HD was great on both.... but better on the TiVo.

But........... SD sucked on the Comcast and was almost perfect on the TiVo series 3.

Bottom line... The TiVo series 3 solves the SD quality problem. In addition to having an EXCELLENT SD picture it also renders the picture with the correct proporsions. I am amazed..... I have 4 TiVos in my house and 2 comcast boxes. I compared them all. The series 2 TiVo's sucked but the series 3 is the real deal.

Also, I noticed that someone posted that they were getting 15% off of list from an authorized SONY dealer. My Sound Advice would only give me 10% until I can prove that an Authorized dealer is selling at 15% off.

If someone could give me that info I would appreciate it. I will be able to get an addtional 5% with proof.

Thank you,

Do you have your Series 3 doing native pass through or set to something else? If something else, what? Thanks

--Larry
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post #732 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebarnman View Post

I was at a Showcase two days ago looking at a XBR2 and a Mits side by side. There was a Soccer game going on and I saw what the poster was talking about. The grass on the Sony looked clearer than what I was seeing on the Mits. In this case we can forget about the live grass comments since the two images were from the same bad source. The Sony still showed much more detail in the grass.

I saw the same thing again yesterday at my 4th store. You must have seen the same hdnet soccer game they were looping. I'm 100% confident its the set after seeing it so many places with tvs all hooked up to the same feed. The sony just has far greater detail in the picture.
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post #733 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 08:19 AM
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I ran some tests using a homemade HD-DVD test disc and played with the DRC palette, with some interesting results.

The post is HERE.

The palette does seem to save per DRC mode (eg. you can have different palette settings per DRC mode and the TV will remember them).

Quote:
Originally Posted by toofargone View Post

I think the palette might be a very powerful tool. I need to figure a good steady source to test. Does the palatte really save per resolution, per Mode? This one has been hard to keep track of.

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post #734 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 08:22 AM
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I'm using a 880 with my 70" and it works pretty well.

The only quirk was that in the database it has inputs numbered up to 7 and then the next one is marked PC input. I had my HD-DVD player hooked up to input 8 (HDMI) and chose PC input. It worked.

So, PC input in the Harmony database for this set is actually input 8 (the second HDMI input).

For those looking for a great universal remote, this one is it (until the newer models come out perhaps). I am really pleased with it and it is well worth the $.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmpharmacist View Post

Anyone using a Logitech Harmony with an XBR2? It appears that they have the 70" set their database but not the 60".

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post #735 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 08:24 AM
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KT - thanks very much for the kind words.

Did you still want me to do anything additional with the test disc? I wasn't sure after your updated findings in your comments below. If you do wish me to do something, perhaps you know the name of the test. The tests are labeled in the disc menu so I would be able to find it easier if I knew the name.

Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KTTV Images View Post

Mr. Foo

You have run an outsanding series of tests and written a masterful test report. The best of any thing I have seen on the forums.
Clear, terms properly defined and results organised. Well worth waiting for.

Many thanks

One key finding is that there is a specific DRC pallette setting that achieves a good deinterlacing result. I would like to think a bit about why this might come about. A very unexpected result: So ,if you run the tests you describe and - "misset' the DRC pallette -you might come up with test results that show Bob deinterlacing, even with a still image (no bar sweeping through the image) and incorrectly conclude the XBR2 fails this test. Again, fascinating.

Here ia guess-hypothesis of what might be 'going on". It may be that the 1080i DRC has a vertical component of enhancement which also then means it uses information on the state of the pixel above and below the one being enhanced to develop a new enhanced set of pixels in a vertical array. Because of the involvement of pixels in one field preceding and one field after the field containing the enhanced pixel - it is possible the deinterlacing test might sometimes give us flashing -apparently bad behavior. But by changing the parameters of the DRC enhancement algorithm with the Pallette controls the bad behavior may be modified..and there may be one specific setting that looks like there is little modification..and the test appears to pass. Just a -kind of -educated attempt to explain your findings.

Possible 1080p24 Frame input capability?

---------------Inserted edit . I just found a thread where the originator of the test files found in checking the authoring behavior that his file ended up on the disk not as 24p but 29.75p. So the XBR2 test I report below is invalid. Ref this thread : post #36 here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=1#post8597958


I have tried to make myself a copy of the files you are referring to and used. and have only been able to play (Toshoba HD DVD player) a portion of them on my XBR1. One of these files comes up on the screen as 1920x1080 24P. I am not certain of this but it looks like this must be a 1080p signal at 24 frames per second rather than 30 or 60 frames per second. If this really is 1080 at 24p then it would possibly be really big deal if it plays on the XBR2. Could you look for this file--it is at about 5 or 6 minutes. into the disk . On my XBR2 the fine H lines in the upper block are present , but the image does not lock well and is somewhat unstable, so I do not think the XBR1 will play this track in an acceptable way.

But, If this is a legitimate test of 1080p at 24 frames per second and it plays in a stable way on the XBR2 it may mean the Sony XBR2 is way ahead of most other RP because it will properly display HD movies at 24 (or 48 or 72) frames per second (when future HD players have 1080 24p output capability).

Translated -- that mean movies without Judder.

Could you look for this file -play it, and see if it 1. locks up and plays well, and 2. let also know if you see the top block of horizontal lines properly displayed without flashing, and if the moving Bar behavior is similar to that for 1080i you have described .....(in other words it appears to pass the test)?

Thanks
KT

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post #736 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebarnman View Post

Are you saying that Mode 2 is closer to standard video white? I'm trying to remember, is the standard 6500k or 5500k? Anyway, Mode 2 from what you are saying is closer to the standard? Whites that look white rather than bluish or redish. I always get it confused, 6500k for video?

The standard for video is 6500K. As KTTV mentioned it takes a while to de-program your eyes. Many years ago when I first had an RPTV calibrated to 6500K it took a week or so to get used to. After that, every other set started looking blue!

Put up a good B&W source or grey scale to see the differences. Right now somewhere between mode 1 and 2 would look good to me but won't know until measurements are taken.

BJBBJB
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post #737 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

This nonlinearity is largely uncorrectable.

Something tells me that when I get my set ISF'ed that it will be correctable.
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post #738 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 10:29 AM
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I have a bit of confusion with resolution, 1:1 and overscan.

I've seen references to 1:1 and overscan, and a mention of "loss of 1:1" after removing overscan. What exactly does this means in terms of the 1920x1080 resolution? Ideally the TV would produce 1:1 with no overscan, and we'd see the full 1920x1080 grid. But it doesn't so what are we seeing? Is it something like 1900x1040, but still 1:1 on pixels?

I don't care that much about overscan, but if I am considering this TV, I want it to produce 1:1 on the pixels.

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post #739 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebarnman View Post

Are you saying that Mode 2 is closer to standard video white? I'm trying to remember, is the standard 6500k or 5500k? Anyway, Mode 2 from what you are saying is closer to the standard? Whites that look white rather than bluish or redish.

I always get it confused, 6500k for video? 5500k for color "daylight" film?
Makes me wonder if that's why movies usually seem to have a bit more of a red push then a video recorded image?

Like a digital camera, I can turn the temperature higher than standard white outside at high noon so the camera will compensate by adding more red to help take out the blue. Results....a warmer looking image.

I wonder if the same thing happens to filmed images (movies) shown with the video standard of 6500k?

Yes , It is my feeling that white balance mode 2 is most likely closest to 6500K. And, color movies shown on TV will be correctly displayed if the display white balance is set to the 6500K standard.

KT
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post #740 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AikenGhoti View Post

Anyone know the service menu code for the XBR2s?

I'm finding the red push really annoying. I can't get a good Color setting. Set it up near 50, and most things look right, but anything with red looks way too vivid. Drop to 45 or even 40, and anything with some red in it looks good, but everything else looks washed out.

I know how red push works, and I know you can't fix it with R gain/bias. That's the wrong color space. You have to fix it when it's still Cr/Pr. Thus, if it's fixable, I'm assuming I have to get into the service menu.

Edit: I probably shouldn't be assuming it's red push, but it sure looks like red push.

Help on Red Push in Service menu:

In my opinion it is red push. I see the same situation on my XBR2 ( and saw it on my old XBR1). If you look at the Avia decoder test pattern you can see that the red push is about 5%..

So, I too would appreciate any help on how to access the Service menu and find the control that affects red push.

Can anyone help point to a post where this is described specifically for the Sony XBR1 or A2000 (or of course the new XBR2)?
Thanks

KT
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post #741 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmpharmacist View Post

Something tells me that when I get my set ISF'ed that it will be correctable.

It would be nice if that were true, but Sony is pushing a new expanded color standard:
From Ultimate AV blog Oct 9 from Japan:
Quote:
"Other Developments Sony was showing a comparison between a newly proposed color space (xvYCC) and the standard NTSC space, each on a Bravia flat panel LCD display. The live source and camera were actually present next to the displays. I thought that the standard color space looked more like the live source than the xvYCC did. It wasn't clear if the sources were produced in their own respective color spaces (that is, an NTSC source into the NTSC display, an xvYCC source into the xvYCC set); if they were not, the comparison was meaningless."

http://blog.ultimateavmag.com/thomasnorton/
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post #742 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmpharmacist View Post

Something tells me that when I get my set ISF'ed that it will be correctable.

I did some research and the original $35K Qualia 004 was correctable but the later SXRDs were not. Maybe the XBR2 is?

This explains what you guys are seeing:
http://www.guidetohometheater.com/re...ny/index5.html
Same old thing!
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post #743 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AikenGhoti View Post

Here's another recent change to my settings that some people may want to know about:



The important part is that you should definitely use Mode 2 for externally-scaled SD. This is actually what we're told in the manual, but I had to test it out before I believed it, and now that I see the results, I believe. It's actually a significant improvement to use Mode 2 in that case. It even smoothes out jaggy caption fonts.

So I take it that Mode 2 is also for externally scaled HD? There are some DVD players that go from 480i to 720p or 1080i.

Also, would it be better for the DVD player to be set at 720p or 1080i before hooking it up to the TV and setting it for Mode 2?

Movies must be OAR, sports and movies must also have 5.1 audio, No EE or NO SALE!
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post #744 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmpharmacist View Post

Something tells me that when I get my set ISF'ed that it will be correctable.


Please let us know when it's getting ISFed and how it turns out!

Movies must be OAR, sports and movies must also have 5.1 audio, No EE or NO SALE!
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post #745 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

The SXRD color primaries are known to be way oversaturated with some more than others. This nonlinearity is largely uncorrectable. Some posted an SXRD picture of an African American the other day and the orange tint was unnatural.
Please quit being objective and enjoy the Sony brand name

Didn't you start a Mits owners thread? UMR will not work on some Mits because the red push is so bad. Sounds like the pot calling the kettle RED.
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post #746 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 11:50 AM
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I have a bit of confusion with resolution, 1:1 and overscan.

I've seen references to 1:1 and overscan, and a mention of "loss of 1:1" after removing overscan. What exactly does this means in terms of the 1920x1080 resolution? Ideally the TV would produce 1:1 with no overscan, and we'd see the full 1920x1080 grid. But it doesn't so what are we seeing? Is it something like 1900x1040, but still 1:1 on pixels?

I don't care that much about overscan, but if I am considering this TV, I want it to produce 1:1 on the pixels.

Sony's SXRD panels are 1920x1080. However, the viewable part of the screen is roughly 1765x1020. All evidence suggests the Sony does 1:1 pixel mapping, which means you don't lose any sharpness with this lower resolution, you simply lose out on viewable area around the edges of the screen.

There probably isn't a 1080p RPTV on the market with 1920x1080 viewable pixels, although some do come closer (with less overscan in 1:1 mode) than the Sony.
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post #747 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 12:06 PM
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They swapped out my Mits 65831 today for the 70XBR2. All I can say is WOW. So much more detail, so much more clarity. The grass on the fields finally look life-like again. This is how HD is supposed to look!

I was really worried the bigger screen, plus deeper cabinet would be too close to my eyes - but the details and sharpness are still better than the Mits which is slightly smaller and sat further back.

I'm also REALLY impressed with the speakers. The sound is MUCH better than the Mits. Lots of deep bass rumbles, lots of punch, and decent surround effects. It really creates a perfect home theater experience. The Mits is really poor in regards to sound quality. I know I will eventually build back my theater audio for even better sound, but the included speakers are really nice for every day watching, games, and movies.

So far I am completely happy I swapped out!
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post #748 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Foo View Post

I ran some tests using a homemade HD-DVD test disc and played with the DRC palette, with some interesting results.

The post is HERE.

The palette does seem to save per DRC mode (eg. you can have different palette settings per DRC mode and the TV will remember them).


Thanks for the gentle reminder about this post, Mr. Foo.
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post #749 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 12:12 PM
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I saw the same thing again yesterday at my 4th store. You must have seen the same hdnet soccer game they were looping. I'm 100% confident its the set after seeing it so many places with tvs all hooked up to the same feed. The sony just has far greater detail in the picture.

Its not the set, maybe OOTB, but definitely not the set as the grass on my 831 is crystal clear w/a good HD feed. My neighbor just bought the 60" XBR2 and is clueless about settings so I pointed him to this form, but if you look at his, you'd think it was just okay, especially since he has Dish w/actual HD service (I'm running an OTA and basic cable direct feed btw). Both sets have their strengths and weaknesses unfortunately, even when tweaked. I had an XBR1 (actually 3 total) and to my eye I don't see a dramatic leap forward, but that's not a bad thing since it had good PQ to start, and the price is almost the same still.

Adults are just kids who owe money
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post #750 of 12065 Old 10-11-2006, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jdreif View Post

Its not that many sources can't do 5.1 and digital simultaneous over HDMI its that the spec says the audio that will be output matches the highest capability of the lowest capable component. In this case the the lowest capable component is the XBR2 since it only has 2 speakers so you get 2 channel audio.

Yes, but the set has "SRS®TruSurround®XT" which renders 5.1 audio from the tuner to "sound like" surround sound. The problem is that the TV is telling HDMI devices that it can ony do 2-channel audio, when, in fact, it could do better. More importantly this also means that it can't "pass thru" DD5.1 to it digital audio output.

If TVs behave this way, the main value of an HDMI connection (compared to DVI and analog audio) is lost.
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