2007 Samsung DLP Information From CES! - Page 15 - AVS Forum
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post #421 of 1255 Old 02-23-2007, 05:06 PM
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I realize this is a bit off-topic, but can anyone tell me what "crushed blacks" are? I couldn't find it in the avsforum glossary.

More specifically, is this correct?: It's when a shadowed area that should show moderately black details on an inky black background instead looks uniformly inky black (thus eliminating shadow detail) -- i.e., that dyamic range at low IRE levels is supressed, so instead of seeing variation between totally black and moderately black, everything is "crushed" to totally black. So this would be the opposite of "gray fog," which obscures black detail not by making moderately black things too black, but by making the very black things not black enough. I.e., the former compresses black dynamic range from above, while the latter compresses it from below.

Related to this, I understand that, when DNIe is on, it creates "floating blacks." What are these, and do they lead to either black crush or gray fog? Thanks!
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post #422 of 1255 Old 02-23-2007, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pchemist View Post

More specifically, is this correct?: It's when a shadowed area that should show moderately black details on an inky black background instead looks uniformly inky black (thus eliminating shadow detail) -- i.e., that dyamic range at low IRE levels is supressed, so instead of seeing variation between totally black and moderately black, everything is "crushed" to totally black.

I think this is what I mean by black crush, but mainly I mean the loss of detail in dark or light (white crush) areas for what ever reason.

If we didn't wear out our professional calibrator members so fast, one of them would have a better answer.
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post #423 of 1255 Old 02-23-2007, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pchemist View Post

I realize this is a bit off-topic, but can anyone tell me what "crushed blacks" are? I couldn't find it in the avsforum glossary.

More specifically, is this correct?: It's when a shadowed area that should show moderately black details on an inky black background instead looks uniformly inky black (thus eliminating shadow detail) -- i.e., that dyamic range at low IRE levels is supressed, so instead of seeing variation between totally black and moderately black, everything is "crushed" to totally black. So this would be the opposite of "gray fog," which obscures black detail not by making moderately black things too black, but by making the very black things not black enough. I.e., the former compresses black dynamic range from above, while the latter compresses it from below.

Related to this, I understand that, when DNIe is on, it creates "floating blacks." What are these, and do they lead to either black crush or gray fog? Thanks!

Yes. You've pretty much nailed crushed blacks. Generally crushed blacks are due to clipping errors, incorrect brightness settings, or lame dynamic enhancement modes. I haven't heard of gray fog. Gray fog sounds like a set with it's brightness too high. This wouldn't quite be the opposite of crushed blacks. In the crushed black case the level of black is pulled so low that several levels of black are pulled bellow the set's minimum black level and are therefore invisible. Black level too high would lead to grayer blacks, but you would still be able to see every level of black. Yes the dynamic range would be compressed, but considering the range from black to white the compression would be too minor to loose any black levels. I supposed if a dynamic enhancement technology selectively compressed and raised just the black range you could get compression heavy enough to loose levels.

Floating black level is when a technology like DNIe or the dynamic iris constantly changes the brightness of black to supposedly "enhance" the picture. This means that a set cannot hold a proper calibration and therefore picture quality is inconsistent. It can lead to crushed blacks or blacks which are too gray. No dynamic processing is going to out think the color timer or mastering engineer. These are just trick modes to differentiate the products at the point of sale.

- Collin
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post #424 of 1255 Old 02-23-2007, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by collinp View Post

Yes. You've pretty much nailed crushed blacks.

Thanks to both of you. I've now got a great post to link to when I need it.
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post #425 of 1255 Old 02-23-2007, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by collinp View Post

Gray fog sounds like a set with it's brightness too high. This wouldn't quite be the opposite of crushed blacks. In the crushed black case the level of black is pulled so low that several levels of black are pulled bellow the set's minimum black level and are therefore invisible. Black level too high would lead to grayer blacks, but you would still be able to see every level of black. Yes the dynamic range would be compressed, but considering the range from black to white the compression would be too minor to loose any black levels. I supposed if a dynamic enhancement technology selectively compressed and raised just the black range you could get compression heavy enough to loose levels.
- Collin

Thanks, Collin. It's my understanding that gray fog happens when a set can't reproduce the darkest blacks so that, even if the brightness were set properly, all blacks below a certain level would all look the same (i.e., they'd all look the same shade of gray, a shade that would be determined by the set's min. black level). It's only above this level that blacks would be differentiated. That's why I thought of gray fog as being a "compression from below."
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post #426 of 1255 Old 02-24-2007, 02:24 AM
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I want the 87S so bad! I can't wait until it comes out. I have a 30" Toshiba HD CRT right now so a 50" of this model would be a huge upgrade. I've already bought my VGA cable for my 360 for 1080p(watch by then they will have the HDMI 360 out). Hopefully this set comes out as it should by late march or in April. My birthday is on March 25th so it would be a pleasent bday gift if it were to come out and in CC or BB by then.

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post #427 of 1255 Old 02-24-2007, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

I'm going to start collecting what seems to be the most reliable information about the 2007 Samsung DLP RPTV sets in the first post in this thread. If you come up with new or improved information just post it here, and I'll incorporate it at the top of the thread.

When the 2007 models start being delivered this thread should gradually become inactive.

It's been a while since I followed this thread, but just want to thank you for your hard work in trying to make sure the first post of this thread is accurate and up-to-date.

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post #428 of 1255 Old 02-24-2007, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Unless you sit very close, the true value of a 1080p image isn't fully enjoyed until the screen size goes to and beyond 60".

The first post in this thread has estimated prices for some models based on information from CES.

From what I've read, 7' is the magic distance for a 50+" TV. Sitting farther away from that will not reveal any perceptible differences between 720p and 1080p (unless it's a monster 70+" screen from 8' away). OTOH, if someone will sit closer than 7' away w/ a larger RP HDTV, then a 1080p should be a "must have" feature.

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post #429 of 1255 Old 02-25-2007, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pchemist View Post

Thanks, Collin. It's my understanding that gray fog happens when a set can't reproduce the darkest blacks so that, even if the brightness were set properly, all blacks below a certain level would all look the same (i.e., they'd all look the same shade of gray, a shade that would be determined by the set's min. black level). It's only above this level that blacks would be differentiated. That's why I thought of gray fog as being a "compression from below."

The minimum level of black varies a great deal from set to set. Even on sets where the minimum black level is higher than others on the market the proper brightness setting is where black in the input signal matches the set's minimum black. This prevents crushing. Even if this level is higher than other sets it really shouldn't lead to a significant constriction of the dynamic range and therefore loss of information.

A quick Google search of the term "gray fog" doesn't bring up a proper definition, but it seems people are using it to indicate sets that they feel don't offer black levels as deep as they'd like. Perhaps brighter blacks are resulting in a perceived loss of shadow detail due to the reduced contrast ratio, and this is what people are trying to describe. It's tough to read between the lines of an ill defined term.

The whole black level thing is interesting. Most people are drawn to the inky blacks of a plasma or CRT, however if one looks at the black levels at your local cinema you notice that the blacks have a glow to them. For accurate reproduction of the cinema experience at home slightly brighter blacks are desirable. I think rear and front projection systems fit the bill nicely.

- Collin
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post #430 of 1255 Old 02-25-2007, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by collinp View Post


The whole black level thing is interesting. Most people are drawn to the inky blacks of a plasma or CRT, however if one looks at the black levels at your local cinema you notice that the blacks have a glow to them. For accurate reproduction of the cinema experience at home slightly brighter blacks are desirable. I think rear and front projection systems fit the bill nicely.

- Collin

It certainly is an interesting issue. I think the glowing blacks are from the projector light shining through the film, which is not 100% opaque. Which invites the question: do we want to limit ourselves to what a movie cinema can do in deciding what should be the standard for video reproduction fidelity?

For audio, it's clear: the best audio system is the one that, with the best direct-miked source, reproduces sound that is as close as possible to what you would have heard if you were there during the recording process. I'd like to argue we should use the same standard with film: integrity to source. Consider, for instance, the filmmaker who shoots a starry sky in a remote location for some National Geographic documentary, and wants the black to glow only so much as it seems to glow live. He doesn't want to have an extra glow added to it from the projector shining through film that is not 100% opaque. Only by having video reproduction equipment that has the highest possible fidelity to the source do filmmakers -- like this hypothetical National Geographic documentarian -- get to precisely communicate their visual ideas to the audience. And only by having the highest fidelity to the source do we obtain the highest sense of immersion, of "being there" -- whether that "there" is an illusion (as with movies) or reality (as with documentaries). For me, I'd eventually like to see a combination of source and display that has the capability to come as close as possible to making me feel like I am looking through a window -- something that neither home nor commerical cinema can come close to today.

Of course, I'd be ecstatic with a home theater that looked as good as projected film in a good theater. Today, film is still better than digital for dynamic range, resolution, and color gamut. But eventually, digital will catch up to and surpass film. And when it does, I'd like our standard for video reproduction fidelity to be integrity to source, rather than simply matching the performance of commercial film-based cinemas.

And on a more practical note: even with the black glow, it's my understanding that film still offers much better real-world contrast than one can get from today's FPs and RPTVs. Is this not true? I tried doing an internet search, and was not able to find contrast ratios (ANSI or otherwise) for 35 or 70mm commerical film.
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post #431 of 1255 Old 02-26-2007, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pchemist View Post

It certainly is an interesting issue. I think the glowing blacks are from the projector light shining through the film, which is not 100% opaque. Which invites the question: do we want to limit ourselves to what a movie cinema can do in deciding what should be the standard for video reproduction fidelity?

I would argue, yes, the cinema is the gold standard to be replicated at home. As long as the cinema is the system content is being produced for having something better at home is unnecessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pchemist View Post

For audio, it's clear: the best audio system is the one that, with the best direct-miked source, reproduces sound that is as close as possible to what you would have heard if you were there during the recording process.

Actually, I don't think it's that clear for audio. The film production process involves assembling a diverse collection of foley effects, synthetically generated effects, ADR, on set dialog, recorded music, and more. Some of these pieces of audio do not actually exist in the real world, and even for those that do it's the final assemblage by the mixing engineer that matters not how they sounded when mic'ed.

I would argue then that the most accurate audio reproduction system that is one that closely matches the sound in the studio as the engineer heard it. This means a sound system that has a front weighted sound stage, speaker matrixes on the sides and rears. Since most home theaters are considerably smaller than the recording stage or sound studio the effect of multiple speakers along the side walls is often replicated by the use of side mounted dipole surrounds.

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I'd like to argue we should use the same standard with film: integrity to source. Consider, for instance, the filmmaker who shoots a starry sky in a remote location for some National Geographic documentary, and wants the black to glow only so much as it seems to glow live. He doesn't want to have an extra glow added to it from the projector shining through film that is not 100% opaque. Only by having video reproduction equipment that has the highest possible fidelity to the source do filmmakers -- like this hypothetical National Geographic documentarian -- get to precisely communicate their visual ideas to the audience. And only by having the highest fidelity to the source do we obtain the highest sense of immersion, of "being there" -- whether that "there" is an illusion (as with movies) or reality (as with documentaries). For me, I'd eventually like to see a combination of source and display that has the capability to come as close as possible to making me feel like I am looking through a window -- something that neither home nor commerical cinema can come close to today.

Well here you are talking about a hyothetical system. As with our earlier discussions on this thread about extended color gamuts, you need to look at what we have today. Flimmakers in Hollywood are screening their development cuts on film and DLP projection systems. They are filming their films with carefully selected film stocks with the grain and light characteristics that they want for their films. They understand the characteristics of projected black levels and are tailoring their content to the system.

What you are proposing is a more ideal system for "video reproduction" which I would argue is pointless unless the content providers have an equivalent or better system for producing and showing content in cinemas. If you are asking for this you are asking for a tectonic shift in film production. Not to mention the fact that large screen display technology does not exist with the black level characteristics you desire.

Taking a look at digital filmmaking you can see how difficult it is to induce change in Hollywood. Though the economics of digital production and distribution make a lot of sense the system has been slow to be embraced by filmmakers. One of the chief arguments against digital filmmaking is that the system is too clean and harsh. Filmmakers are accustomed to selecting film stock with certain grain and light characteristics for artistic effect. In a digital system there is no grain and instead of light roll off you get hard clipping. Yes grain can be added later. Yes cinematographers can learn to avoid clipping and add digital rolloff in post, but this involves changing ingrained habits and this happens slowly.

Quote:
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Of course, I'd be ecstatic with a home theater that looked as good as projected film in a good theater. Today, film is still better than digital for dynamic range, resolution, and color gamut. But eventually, digital will catch up to and surpass film. And when it does, I'd like our standard for video reproduction fidelity to be integrity to source, rather than simply matching the performance of commercial film-based cinemas.

To be honest the gap is narrowing considerably. For resolution the limits of the human eye come into play. While it takes about 4K lines of vertical resolution to match the resolution of film, you already need to go to really large display sizes to be able to discern the additional resolution of our 1K system. For example you wouldn't want to sit further away than about 8 feet from a 61 inch set ot you start to loose resolution. The dynamic range gap is closing with the addition of higher bit depths. And though wider color gamuts are quite achievable even by todays displays the current video standards limit us to relatively constricted 601 and 709 gamuts.

Quote:
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And on a more practical note: even with the black glow, it's my understanding that film still offers much better real-world contrast than one can get from today's FPs and RPTVs. Is this not true? I tried doing an internet search, and was not able to find contrast ratios (ANSI or otherwise) for 35 or 70mm commerical film.

Cinema simultaneous contrast ratios are usually about 80:1. Most projector and display companies however site the relatively useless number of sequential contrast ratio which is vastly higher. Sequential contrast ratio of film as about 10,000:1. Note that contrast ratio is a relatively useless number. I could build a set who's blackest blacks are actually bright gray and as long as I can make it's white really bright I can give it a good contrast ratio. It doesn't matter that staring at such a set would be like staring into a spotlight. Hmm, not unlike an out of the box Samsung.

- Collin
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post #432 of 1255 Old 02-26-2007, 11:34 AM
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Either the model information gotten at CES has been revised or there is an error on the web site. Either one or both are possible. Just cool it, and watch the information seep out over the next few weeks.

The fact that it's on the web site doesn't mean it's solid information. The fact that Samsung will have 2007 720p models does not tell you anything about what model numbers the 1080p sets will have.

You can still count on two lines of 1080p sets. One for the BBs and CCs along with another line for higher end stores like Magnolia. My guess is that the main difference will be HDMI versions, and it won't mean much.

I don't see any 46" 1080p DLP from CES, but you subsequently posted the 46" 75S as 1080p, later corrected it as 720p, so does that mean we won't see 46" 1080p with a new model number?
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post #433 of 1255 Old 02-26-2007, 11:55 AM
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I don't see any 46" 1080p DLP from CES, but you subsequently posted the 46" 75S as 1080p, later corrected it as 720p, so does that mean we won't see 46" 1080p with a new model number?

Samsung has a picture of the 46" 75S on their site. At CES, Samsung said the 75S line was 1080p, but it's been posted to their site as 720p.

We still don't know if the specs on the Samsung site are accurate.
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post #434 of 1255 Old 02-26-2007, 10:40 PM
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So I am ready to get the HL-S5087W but want to wait to see whats up with the new models. When are they expected to be out and whats the advantages/disadvantages of lamp vs LED.
Thanks for any info.
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post #435 of 1255 Old 02-26-2007, 11:06 PM
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The 5087W didn't have 1x1 pixel mapping (everytime you turned it off, the settings reset) while the 88 series did. This is very important to me, and is one of the biggest reasons I'm waiting for the HL-T5076S.

Any news on 1x1 pixel mapping?
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post #436 of 1255 Old 02-27-2007, 01:17 AM
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I can't recall Samsung ever making a 1080p DLP smaller than 50", and I didn't see one at this year's CES booth either. The 46" models have always been 720p, IIRC.
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post #437 of 1255 Old 02-27-2007, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ngamer007 View Post

The 5087W didn't have 1x1 pixel mapping (everytime you turned it off, the settings reset) while the 88 series did. This is very important to me, and is one of the biggest reasons I'm waiting for the HL-T5076S.

Any news on 1x1 pixel mapping?

Don't know if you've checked in at the owners threads recently, but x87 units recently manufactured include an updated December firmware that will now save the 1:1 setting.
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post #438 of 1255 Old 02-27-2007, 02:34 PM
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So I am ready to get the HL-S5087W but want to wait to see whats up with the new models. When are they expected to be out and whats the advantages/disadvantages of lamp vs LED.
Thanks for any info.

From what I've heard the first of the 2007 LED DLP sets will be the HL-T5687S. And it sounds like it will be out sometime in April.

The advantage of LEDs over the traditional bulb are five fold...
1.) The LEDs should last like ten times as long, meanig that instead of changing the bulb every 2 - 3 years, you just simply replace the TV every 20 - 30 years.
2.) No more rainbow effects.
3.) A wider color gamut for more accurate and true-to-life colors
4.) I've heard 7 sec On/Off functionality
5.) Low power consumption - Like anyone really cares about that.
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post #439 of 1255 Old 02-27-2007, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Dude2000theman View Post

From what I've heard the first of the 2007 LED DLP sets will be the HL-T5687S. And it sounds like it will be out sometime in April.

The advantage of LEDs over the traditional bulb are five fold...
1.) The LEDs should last like ten times as long, meanig that instead of changing the bulb every 2 - 3 years, you just simply replace the TV every 20 - 30 years.
2.) No more rainbow effects.
3.) A wider color gamut for more accurate and true-to-life colors
4.) I've heard 7 sec On/Off functionality
5.) Low power consumption - Like anyone really cares about that.


Add to that less heat=less fans=less noise=less maintenance.

Also, no color wheel=more simple=less maintenance.

Does anyone know if these sets require an extended cooling down period at shutoff, ike the original ones do to protect the bulb, or do they shut right off?

(This would eliminate the need for a UPS type surge protector, unless you wanted to protect a recording in progress from a brownout/blackout.)

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post #440 of 1255 Old 02-27-2007, 05:08 PM
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Samsung has added the "buy from online retailer" button to the HL-T4075S and HL-T5675S models on it's website. Only retailer is Amazon who states a March 1 release date. And yes they too list them as 720p.

HL-T4075S = $1399.99
HL-T5676S = $1799.99
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post #441 of 1255 Old 02-27-2007, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

Don't know if you've checked in at the owners threads recently, but x87 units recently manufactured include an updated December firmware that will now save the 1:1 setting.

This is joyous news!

But I've waited this long, I might as well haul until the new models come out. If the current models have 1:1, I don't see why the new ones wouldn't. Thanks for the tip.
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post #442 of 1255 Old 03-01-2007, 04:12 PM
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The manual for the 75S series is available on the Samsung site. Its says (under Connecting a Digital Audio System) "5.1CH audio is possible when the TV is connected to an external device supporting 5.1CH".

If it means what it says, the 2007 Sammys will be the first TVs (of any technology) to support DD5.1 pass thru from HDMI to digital audio out.

I've been waiting a long time.
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post #443 of 1255 Old 03-01-2007, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa73 View Post

I realize that this goes back a few weeks, but could anyone explain the "real world" visual improvements we'll see with a 10,000:1 contrast ratio, as opposed to last year's 4,000:1 ratio?

Thanks!

Nothing.....there is no spec for measuring this so its a meaningless spec at the moment - a marketing gimmic
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post #444 of 1255 Old 03-02-2007, 02:54 PM
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Anybody have a source for this? I am building a cabinet into a wall and I need to determine how the recess needs to be built to accept 6" or so of the rear of the cabinet.

I have an email into Samsung with no response so far. Any thoughts on whether the overall shape will be similar to the 75 series? I can at least scale up to 61" from there.

Thanks for your help,
Kevin
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post #445 of 1255 Old 03-02-2007, 05:24 PM
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First review of Samsung LED in PCmag Mar. 20th recommends lamp driven at end. See my post in Samsung 1080P for more.

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post #446 of 1255 Old 03-02-2007, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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First review of Samsung LED in PCmag Mar. 20th recommends lamp driven at end. See my post in Samsung 1080P for more.

audiooldhand

You are posting in the "speculation" thread for the 2007 models, and PCMag reviewed the 2006 model.

The type of review that you are posting links to is usually superficial, and done with a minimum of effort. PCMag has redefined itself as a gadget magazine with very little real content. I've been reading it for over 22 years, but I doubt I will renew my subscription.

On the other end of the spectrum, "The Perfect Vision" is redefining itself in much the same way with similar results.
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post #447 of 1255 Old 03-02-2007, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

You are posting in the "speculation" thread for the 2007 models, and PCMag reviewed the 2006 model.

The type of review that you are posting links to is usually superficial, and done with a minimum of effort. PCMag has redefined itself as a gadget magazine with very little real content. I've been reading it for over 22 years, but I doubt I will renew my subscription.

On the other end of the spectrum, "The Perfect Vision" is redefining itself in much the same way with similar results.

Thankfully there's still Widescreen Review.

- Collin
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post #448 of 1255 Old 03-02-2007, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Thankfully there's still Widescreen Review.

- Collin

In Shakespeare's Henry VI one of the characters, “Dick The Butcher" said, “First thing we do, is kill all the lawyers."

If the Bard was with us today I'm sure he would have written, “First thing we do, is kill all the accountants."
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post #449 of 1255 Old 03-02-2007, 10:10 PM
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How much of an issue is the rainbow effect with the current crop of DLPs from samsung and do we know about the 07 models?

I have never personally seen the "rainbow" but as most people I know us CRTs or LCD I haven't had much opportunity to look for it.

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post #450 of 1255 Old 03-02-2007, 10:24 PM - Thread Starter
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How much of an issue is the rainbow effect with the current crop of DLPs from samsung and do we know about the 07 models?

As long as a set uses a color wheel like the ones available the past five years, then a small percentage will see rainbows. Of the ones that see them, some are not bothered by it.

One advantage of the LED DLP sets is that they don't need a color wheel. Theoretically no one should see rainbows using a LED set.

The only way to protect yourself is to buy from a dealer who offers a "for any reason" thirty day no cost return policy.
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