2007 Samsung LED Owner's Thread (HLT XX87/89S) - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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post #1081 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorK View Post

There seems to be many mostly negative comments about the HLTXX89S line. While I truly appreciate all the shared knowledge and technical talk, the bottom line for me is ...Should I buy the HL T5689S or wait for more user comments and professional reviews? ( I am more of a casual viewer). Thank you for your opinions.

After a little more testing my attitude is much better. The xbox 360 looks good and I played Happy Feet with the 360 and it looks awesome. I can't wait for the Oppo 981.

I guess it just come down to the set makes bad TV even worse. I still think the HD TV should look a bit better but I'm going to wait for more calibration before getting frustrated.

How far should someone be sitting from this set. I know the min. but what is the ideal?

Thanks
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post #1082 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

You can scratch you head even more.

There are no TV sets that I know about that do any more than these Samsung sets. It's possible that I've missed some because I've not been looking at that feature anywhere but in this forum.

I think the logic is that TVs are stereo devices, but if you connect them directly to cable without a STB, or an OTA antenna, you need some way to get 5.1 audio to a separate surround system.

I know we're just speculating, but do you think it possible that discrete channel audio through HDMI may be inherently tied to 1.3?
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post #1083 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by wiscbadger View Post

After a little more testing my attitude is much better. The xbox 360 looks good and I played Happy Feet with the 360 and it looks awesome. I can't wait for the Oppo 981.

I guess it just come down to the set makes bad TV even worse. I still think the HD TV should look a bit better but I'm going to wait for more calibration before getting frustrated.

How far should someone be sitting from this set. I know the min. but what is the ideal?

Thanks

Remember, you're taking what is effectively a postage stamp and blowing it up to the size of a flag. The higher the resolution monitor the worse SD material will look. There is only so much processing you can apply to an image, and mostly that's just to smooth the edges of contrast in the image. You can't make more out of what isn't there.
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post #1084 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorK View Post

There seems to be many mostly negative comments about the HLTXX89S line. While I truly appreciate all the shared knowledge and technical talk, the bottom line for me is ...Should I buy the HL T5689S or wait for more user comments and professional reviews? ( I am more of a casual viewer). Thank you for your opinions.

I say this respectfully from a place of experience and prior disappointment:

HDTVs are a mixed bag. Every set will have advantages and disadvantages. The best way to decide is to IGNORE all of our opinions (even the good ones, because they will lead you to overlook things), and go down to somewhere where you can test the TV yourself. Think about how you want to use the set (Am I a TV watcher? Do I watch DVDs most? Is the HD image what's important?), and then bring whatever source material and connect up in the way you will be doing at home. Get in the menu and make a basic color calibration (make it look good to you). The more things you can feed it and time you spend doing this, the better enabled in your decision you'll be about spending (let's face it) a lot of money. Then do that for at least two other comparable sets just to see what your options are, and how other manufacturers do the same things.

The bottom line is that everybody has different eyes and we don't all have the same preferences. You need to be satisfied with this set, not us. It's an investment of your entertainment budget.

That said, these forums are a goldmine for educated opinions and technical caveats. A great place to come if you've got an idea of what you're looking for and want to make sure other owners haven't found problems you wouldn't have known about until you got the TV home.
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post #1085 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 08:03 AM
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I love the set as well, its just a matter of getting a couple things worked out. I do like samsung offers a usb port for FW updates which i think will prove to be of great use. Hopefully to redo the service menu I think a pro calibration will take care of lot of my b!tching. Most of what i notice is in total darkness w/ just the set on.
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post #1086 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 08:17 AM
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what's the difference between the 87 and 89 series again? there's an absolutely awesome price on the HLT5087 online but the 89 is $600 more for the same size. Are there any commonly known problems regarding the HLT5087S that I should wait for until Samsung gets it fixed?
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post #1087 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 08:26 AM
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I appreciate your wisdom and I thank you for the thoughtfulness of your response. I agree that ultimately it should be my eyes that make the decision and not the results of a technical diagnostic or simply what others think. I want to spend more time watching TV than tweaking it. (However, some posts show things like streaks that are quite obvious.) With this in mind, I have not found any place on Long Island to view this TV. More importantly , how do I know how it will perform with my cable system on HD or SD? I have Cablevision, Scientific Atlanta HDTV DVR box. What dealers offer a 30 day exchange policy? Thank you again.
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post #1088 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 08:47 AM
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I'm very happy with mine, using recommended setting.
No issues yet, further testing to come.
I was worried about it being to big for my condo, but in the corner works well.
Surprised at the brightness that is achieved through LEDs
LL
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post #1089 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckl View Post

I'm very happy with mine, using recommended setting.
No issues yet, further testing to come.
I was worried about it being to big for my condo, but in the corner works well.
Surprised at the brightness that is achieved through LEDs

Is that stand the Samsung one that goes with this model? Or is it another brand?

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post #1090 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 09:28 AM
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It's the Bush stand from BB that somebody mentioned earlier in this thread.
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post #1091 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 09:34 AM
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Digital,

It's a brand new set. Bad out of the box. Why settle for having it repaired? Tell them you want a new one. Demand a new one.

TWD
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post #1092 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 09:40 AM
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I did some eyeball adjusting in the dynamic mode, was wondering if anyone else wants to give these settings a shot and tell me what they think

Dynamic Mode
Contrast 80
Brightness 38
Sharp 0
Color 43
Tint 53/47
Color Tone Normal
ALL OFF
Gamut sRGB

I think the picture looks great and a whole lot BRIGHTER just curious what anyone else thinks. Detail is very crisp imo. but again i could be way off.... LMK

ps Maybe a little bit of blooming going on?
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post #1093 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 09:41 AM
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I was at the EH Expo this past year and stopped by the NuVision booth. They had their LED based set and the LED engine(or whatever the hell it was) on display. I made the mistake of looking directly into one of the LED's on the light engine. Yeah, I couldn't see right for at least 15min. Needless to say, Everything I looked at had a greenish hue. The guy said the LEDs were only at about 25% of full brightness, thank God for that.
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post #1094 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigee View Post

Just like I said.....
Here is some goodness. I sorta tweaked with the settings from what others have said in posts and did my own thing.

The set is the HL-T5087S....I was so impatient I chose to pick it up from the shipper

I'm posting thumbs to let you preview the goodness.

***
King Kong....


***
I have definately got my wow factor already from Happy Feet, now it's time to play some games! Ask away if you want....I'm not tech savvy on TV's yet just to warn you though.

The quote above was from several days ago. What interested me was the King Kong screen shot. This is a very high resolution photo (downloads as a 12MB bitmap file), that appears to be an excellent portrayal of the image on the screen.

But what really caught my attention is the presence of what could be some unfortunate color renderings. You may have to zoom in on the picture a lot to see this, but here is what I see--

In the clouds at the top, there is a lot of magenta shading. I believe this occurs within a particular narrow luminance range.

On the girl's cheeks, there are light magenta banding areas. (This is sometimes called "solarization", more correctly "posterization", I believe.) Below this are two smaller, darker, and more noticeable magenta bands, one of which follows her chin line.

On the girl's neck, there are cyan splotches. These looks kind of like veins until you zoom in the see that they go in all directions and criss cross each other. These neck splotches continue to the left of the picture onto the gilrl's shirt--where they are joined by magenta splotches. On the right side of the picture, the girl's shirt sleeve goes almost fully cyan.

I am concerned about this, because I have picked the Samsung LED set as a good replacement for a plasma unit which does this very same thing, only worse. Plasma sets made in the past two years have been plagued by this problem--which appears to result from the inability of the three colors of plasma cells to linearly track input luminosity changes, and the difficulty in engineering data decoding and plasma driving circuits to cope with the non-linearity of the plasma panel. See the Sharp and Panasonic flat panel threads on "purple snakes" and "clay face" for examples. And see my posting at my web site for a look at my Philips plasma problems. Both Panasonic and Sharp have put out replacement picture processing boards to reduce--but not completely cure--their problems. Philips has sent me four replacements for my TV, all with the identical problem. Philips has given up (on me) and is now refunding my payment.

So, what does anyone think about this? For starters, I do not believe any of what I have described is due to MPEG decoding artifacts. I have seen too many instances of this on my own TV and on screen pics in the forums noted above.

If you owners want to see if your set is suscetible to a color problem, grab the RGB Ramp and the Star Gray Ramp test files from 1zelda.com/tv and display them on your TV. The RGB ramp is a 256 step NTSC pattern. You can likely see the individual steps. There should be no banding. There should be no instances where the steps do not change to the next darker or lighter shade. There should be no obviously too light or too dark steps. And there should never be an instance where, for instance, the red ramp displays anything other than a solid shade of red. With the star gray ramp, there should be no hint of any color rings, and, of course, no gradient errors.

You can display these JPEG files on your TV directly from a USB stick, or from a computer with an image viewer. For a viewer, I prefer the one that comes with Nero which can display a full screen image with no borders or boxes. You may have to adjust the TV brightness and contrast to resolve all the steps on the ramps.

---

Samsung LN-T5265F
Dynex DX-L32-10
Proscan 40LC45S
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post #1095 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by c3lub View Post

I know we're just speculating, but do you think it possible that discrete channel audio through HDMI may be inherently tied to 1.3?

First no. Then yes. Now no again.

What ever UMR's point is I misunderstood it yesterday. Many A/V receivers can receive 5.1 audio using a HDMI connection. I now think that UMR was pointing out that not all A/V receivers can accept 5.1 audio through HDMI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

This is not true if you mean over HDMI. Some HDMI receivers like ARCAM only support video.


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post #1096 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Thunderoustalon View Post

IMost of what i notice is in total darkness w/ just the set on.

Look into bias (back) lighting. Watching in a totally dark room isn't a good idea.

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post #1097 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Einride View Post

So, what does anyone think about this?

I think a TV's image (unknown calibration), to a digital camera(unknown calibration), to unknown image processing, to unknown graphics card, to unknown computer monitor (unknown calibration) is a chain of too many unknowns.

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post #1098 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Look into bias (back) lighting. Watching in a totally dark room isn't a good idea.


Good to know, looks like bias lighting is just 6500k lamps. i run saltwater reef aquariums in my house so i have access to a ton of stuff right here... i'm going to try and run a single 20in t5 lamp behind it via velcro and move it around till it looks better or add more if i need to. I see this stuff sells for 200+ i paid 20$ for what looks like an identical light housing and all...
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post #1099 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 11:01 AM
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How is the black level on the new HL-T's? Especially compared to the HL-S5679W (the first LED-based Samsung). Are blacks blacker in low light, dark scenes? Still need back lighting in a dark room?

How good are the Detail Setting? They seem nice. How good is the Black Adjust(Off/Low/Medium/High) and Dynamic Contrast (Off/LOw/Medium/High) adjustments?

What exactly is the "Built-in light sensor with beam current feedback insures stable light output over the life of the TV"?

The contrast ratio is listed as 10,000:1, does it appear so?

I like the Position adjustment in the menu, nice touch. What about overscan on/off toggle? Still have to go to the Service Menu?

Thanks for any information.


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post #1100 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderoustalon View Post

Good to know, looks like bias lighting is just 6500k lamps. i run saltwater reef aquariums in my house so i have access to a ton of stuff right here... i'm going to try and run a single 20in t5 lamp behind it via velcro and move it around till it looks better or add more if i need to. I see this stuff sells for 200+ i paid 20$ for what looks like an identical light housing and all...

Here are some threads that discuss bias lighting. To justify $200+ you would need a laboratory setup.

Thread # 1

Thread # 2

Thread # 3

IDEAL-LUME

A lot of people with RPTV sets use the IDEAL-LUME (standard) which is $45.00. There are cheaper options as you are aware. Given all the factors involved, I don't know which is best. I do know that you need to control the amount of light which can be a problem with some lights.

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post #1101 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 11:15 AM
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Based on reports here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Hester View Post

How is the black level on the new HL-T's? Especially compared to the HL-S5679W (the first LED-based Samsung). Are blacks blacker in low light, dark scenes?

Much better than the HL-S5679.

Quote:
Still need back lighting in a dark room?

Of course.

Quote:
How good are the Detail Setting? They seem nice. How good is the Black Adjust(Off/Low/Medium/High) and Dynamic Contrast (Off/LOw/Medium/High) adjustments?

We know that Eliab has one of these and we hope he will be able to report his findings soon.

Quote:
What exactly is the "Built-in light sensor with beam current feedback insures stable light output over the life of the TV"?

It's supposed to maintain a consistent light output from the LEDs.

Quote:
The contrast ratio is listed as 10,000:1, does it appear so?

I treat those numbers as marketing hype. I haven't had a chance to see a HL-T 1080p LED set.

Quote:
What about overscan on/off toggle? Still have to go to the Service Menu?

Not if you have a 1080i/1080p source through HDMI.

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post #1102 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 01:09 PM
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I went back to Sears last evening to take a second look at the Samsung Hl-T6187S LED DLP projection set that just came out. This time it was flanked by two of Toshiba's new conventional lamp sets, the 65HM167 and 57HM167. All three of these sets were on my short list, but I expected the Samsung to blow the others out of the water. To my surprise, it was just the reverse!

The LED set was simply inferior to the lamp sets. After staring at the LED set for quite a while, I figured out the problem - the LED set cannot generate a convincing "white". "White" on this set looked muddied, as if you were looking at snow through a dirty screen door. Thus, none of the outdoor scenes with the sun shining looked natural. In my opinion, Samsung needs to add a fourth LED to these sets, one that generates a pure white, to make it competitive with the lamp sets. As it stands now, I would not buy the LED DLP set; by itself, it was mesmerizing, but in comparison to the HM167s, it didn't cut it. Maybe this is why no other manufacturer is marketing LED DLP sets at this time.

I will say that the colors on the LED were rich and wonderful to look at, but everything appeared to be viewed through a dirty screen door. Samsung's first iteration of an LED DLP set last year was a disappointing failure, but this very much improved second attempt still isn't up to prime time, certainly not at the high price Samsung is asking for it.

The new style of the Samsungs cannot be beat - the cabinets are gorgeous. But the Toshibas cost much less and so far have superior pictures.

By the way, I spoke to the expert technician who repairs Samsung DLP sets, and the lifetime of the LEDs in these sets is an amazing 55,000 hours! These sets may be one design improvement away from greatness.
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post #1103 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ikramer View Post

I went back to Sears last evening to take a second look at the Samsung Hl-T6187S LED DLP projection set that just came out. This time it was flanked by two of Toshiba's new conventional lamp sets, the 65HM167 and 57HM167. All three of these sets were on my short list, but I expected the Samsung to blow the others out of the water. To my surprise, it was just the reverse!

The LED set was simply inferior to the lamp sets. After staring at the LED set for quite a while, I figured out the problem - the LED set cannot generate a convincing "white". "White" on this set looked muddied, as if you were looking at snow through a dirty screen door. Thus, none of the outdoor scenes with the sun shining looked natural. In my opinion, Samsung needs to add a fourth LED to these sets, one that generates a pure white, to make it competitive with the lamp sets. As it stands now, I would not buy the LED DLP set; by itself, it was mesmerizing, but in comparison to the HM167s, it didn't cut it. Maybe this is why no other manufacturer is marketing LED DLP sets at this time.

I will say that the colors on the LED were rich and wonderful to look at, but everything appeared to be viewed through a dirty screen door. Samsung's first iteration of an LED DLP set last year was a disappointing failure, but this very much improved second attempt still isn't up to prime time, certainly not at the high price Samsung is asking for it.

The new style of the Samsungs cannot be beat - the cabinets are gorgeous. But the Toshibas cost much less and so far have superior pictures.

By the way, I spoke to the expert technician who repairs Samsung DLP sets, and the lifetime of the LEDs in these sets is an amazing 55,000 hours! These sets may be one design improvement away from greatness.

Did you get to adjust the settings or notice what type of input was being fed to the tv? The whites look pretty white to me on the TV. Some modes and settings do cause the whites to look more muddier but if you select the correct settings it should be pretty accurate to white. I've actually have had my eyes hurt from how bright and white the white is in some scenes.

By the way when I check out the HLT models in BB or CC they always look crappy. They fed bad sources into the machines or don;t have them calibrated properly. I always try to make sure one is connected to a HD o r BD player with an HDMI cable so I know its being fed a good signal. The best looking ones in the stores are always the ones with PS3, 360, HD or BD connected. When you find one connected to a good source they alway look much better. I'm actually surprised some of these stores can even sell a HDTV with some of the sources they feed into the TV. I was concerned my TV i orderd online might look as bad as they do in the stores but it looks many times better.

IF you got a ps3, 360 , HD or BD player i would take it in the store with you and connect it with HDMI cable or similar then rate the TV. Never trust what the stores fed into them things. IF I had went solely on what I saw on the TV on display I would still be using my 480i RPTV.

A white LED would have been a great idea but white should be able to be acheived with mixing R/G/B LED together.
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post #1104 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

No. I think it's tied to reducing costs as much as possible. Any A/V Receiver with HDMI input can receive 5.1 digital sound regardless of the version of HDMI chips in the receiver.

This is not true if you mean over HDMI. Some HDMI receivers like ARCAM only support video.

W. Jeff Meier


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post #1105 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 02:31 PM
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I saw the HLT6189S on display at Tweeter today. It had a very nice picture, but they had a Blu-ray feed with only about a five minute loop with not much variety. The tv was in a room by itself so I was not able to compare it to anything directly. Thinking back I would say that I was not very impressed by the whites either. The colors yes, but the whites no. Before going to Tweeter I was at Sears no new Samsungs were on display, but they had the new Toshibas mixed in with the other TVs and I would say that the whites of the Toshibas were better than the others. My wife also thought the Toshibas looked better than the other sets with the whites. They had a nice HD feed with skiers against a snow covered mountain.

It will be interesting to see how these LED sets will compare with other displays. I am thinking that the whites may be an issue when compared to similar bulb based displays.
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post #1106 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by umr View Post

This is not true if you mean over HDMI. Some HDMI receivers like ARCAM only support video.

From Yesterday.

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I just called Magnolia Audio-Video (the store not the department) to discover that my assumption was totally wrong. None of the receivers that the Magnolia Audio-Video chain carries will do 5.1 audio over HDMI. That includes top of the line Denon and Pioneer Elite lines.

Today I ask the question more carefully, and got the right answer. The current A/V receivers with HDMI capability will accept 5.1 audio. What they tell you all depends on how careful you are ask the question.

Calibration Resources:

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post #1107 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 02:42 PM
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There must have been wrong setting on this set. My son has the 56in version led and the whites are pure. I also looked at the Toshibas and it didn't have the clarity of the Samsung.

gjn
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post #1108 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

I put my foot in my mouth there.

I just called Magnolia Audio-Video (the store not the department) to discover that my assumption was totally wrong. None of the receivers that the Magnolia Audio-Video chain carries will do 5.1 audio over HDMI. That includes top of the line Denon and Pioneer Elite lines.

They are expecting to have HDMI 1.3 receivers around September.

That is foolish for Mag A/V to wait so long before carrying HDMI 1.3 receivers. J&R is already taking pre-orders for Onkyo's 605 receiver. It's expected for Onkyo to release their 2007 "5-series" receivers bet. Apr. through Aug., depending on the model.

Here's the thread for these new Onkyo receivers.

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post #1109 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

I put my foot in my mouth there.

I just called Magnolia Audio-Video (the store not the department) to discover that my assumption was totally wrong. None of the receivers that the Magnolia Audio-Video chain carries will do 5.1 audio over HDMI. That includes top of the line Denon and Pioneer Elite lines.

They are expecting to have HDMI 1.3 receivers around September.

Although I value all of your input to this forum, I think that they gave you wrong information.

There are many receivers, and not necessarily top of the line, that capture 5.1 audio through hdmi. That's how many hd-dvd players are connected to the receivers in forum member's systems, and DD+ and Dolby True can also be captured via hdmi, which usually allows for further post processing like adding dpl IIx for the rear surround channels in addition to the sides.

I think that only the very lower level receivers of most manufacturers are hdmi video pass through only without capturing the audio.

DD 5.1 is also captured with hdmi by these receivers with standard dvds as well.

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post #1110 of 14898 Old 04-21-2007, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Einride View Post

You can display these JPEG files on your TV directly from a USB stick, or from a computer with an image viewer.

I'm a little concerned that these images are JPEG and possibly compressed, which wouldn't be perfect. Do you know if these are uncompressed JPEG or if there is another .PPM or .BMP or other format that has these uncompressed?
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