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Rear Projection Units > 2007 Samsung LED Owner's Thread (HLT XX87/89S)
htwaits's Avatar htwaits 11:00 AM 04-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilB View Post

I imagine he was speaking of the piezo mirror used create the two "half-images". If that mirror was misbalanced, I would think it would buzz.

Your piezo mirror seems to me to fit the Wikipedia description. Geographically you seem to be well located for interpreting TI technology.

htwaits's Avatar htwaits 11:06 AM 04-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by dee99ta View Post

This sounds a lot like a transformer buzzing in the power supply of the set. Just a guess though.


There have been HLS (2006) reports of transformer noise. The ones I recall were when the set was in standby mode.

I don't recall ever reading about a case where the wobulation piezo mirror (Thanks PhilB) was found to be making a noise. I have one of the first examples -- a 2004 720p HLP model.
noears's Avatar noears 11:37 AM 04-23-2007
If the wobulating mirror or lens was making a noise it would be very faint. It is so small it couldn't move enough air to make a loud sound.
gigapower's Avatar gigapower 11:46 AM 04-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead.Horse View Post

I believe he was referring to Ultimate Electronics.

And it is a very nice price, they are bringing me one to replace a busted 60A2020.
slaizer2000's Avatar slaizer2000 11:50 AM 04-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by StuckeyBoss View Post

I dont know why people seem to like that movie mode. To me, it makes the picture look dark and not very good. I prefer the standard or dynamic.

I would agree. When i first got the system the dynamic was way too hot and bright on colors. But i was coming from a 7 year old RPTV standard def Tv which never had its bulbs replaced.

I switched to movie mode which at the time looked much better than dynamic. After a few days of watching i began to think the colors were not vibrant enough and too dark/muted (even at fourm settings posted by other users). I switched to dynamic and altho a bit hotter didn't bother me as much as it did when i first saw it in dynamic out of the box.

After a few days of leaving it at dynamic it no longer looks to hot for me but looks more vibrant or robust than movie mode and i prefer it much more. I think my eyes got desensitized to the briogth vivid colors and now could handle it.

Alot of people may not like this as it doesn't look as realistic as movie mode. So its all a personal preference.
TheMightyTick's Avatar TheMightyTick 12:06 PM 04-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Wikipedia and other sources refer to a wobulation diagram published at "Sound & Vision Magazine" but all the links to it are now being defaulted to the home page of their site.

Probably this diagram: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hdt...dtv-page3.html
htwaits's Avatar htwaits 12:10 PM 04-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMightyTick View Post

Probably this diagram: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hdt...dtv-page3.html

Thanks. Not only did the links I found at Wikipedia and other locations fail, but a search for "wobulation" also failed at their web site. This one is a keeper.
Numero1latino's Avatar Numero1latino 12:13 PM 04-23-2007
Does anyone have any suggestions for which warranty to get with this set, 1yr, 3yr or 5yr? I was at Tweeter today and they wanted 499 for the 5yr warranty that included in home service. They also did not have a new warranty for this set due to it not having a lamp. Apparently it has the same one as all the other DLPs.

I set the TV to the recommended settings and they had a Sony bluray player connected to it. Both Eight Below and Ice Age 2 looked really good. I wanted to see the HD feed but they didn't have that connected.
shinka's Avatar shinka 12:21 PM 04-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMightyTick View Post

Probably this diagram: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hdt...dtv-page3.html

After examining my light engine, it looks like the wobulator (Samsung calls it an actuator) is the mirror prior to the last lense. The above diagram does not show the big lense after the wobulator that spreads the light to fill the screen.
PhilB's Avatar PhilB 01:07 PM 04-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Your piezo mirror seems to me to fit the Wikipedia description. Geographically you seem to be well located for interpreting TI technology.

My wobulation knowledge comes from discussions on this subject in AVSForum serveral years ago when it first appeared. If I recall correctly, MrWigggles was the first one to propose the piezo mirror solution.

-phil
htwaits's Avatar htwaits 01:14 PM 04-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilB View Post

My wobulation knowledge comes from discussions on this subject in AVSForum serveral years ago when it first appeared. If I recall correctly, MrWigggles was the first one to propose the piezo mirror solution.

-phil

If my memory was better I would remember the details from those discussions too. What I remember was that a couple people figured out what wobulation was going to mean before I read a description. MrWiggles is an authority in his own right.

I was surprised that it wasn't easy to find clear details like the diagram using Google. I should have ask my wife to do the search.
Wesley Hester's Avatar Wesley Hester 01:17 PM 04-23-2007
Anyone using Faroudja-based equipment with their HL-T's seeing any color banding/polarization, etc. in dark scenes, fades to black, etc.? DVD players like the Oppo DV-981HD, Oppo OPDV971H, Samsung 960, etc. Or Faroudja-based A/V receivers.

Any comments would be appreciated.

Also, any information about the 'advanced' picture settings in the menu and their effect on the picture quality. Especially, anyone adjusting the black level to make 2.35:1 black bars darker during low light, dark scenes, etc.
TheMightyTick's Avatar TheMightyTick 01:29 PM 04-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Thanks. Not only did the links I found at Wikipedia and other locations fail, but a search for "wobulation" also failed at their web site. This one is a keeper.

There's a trick with the google search engine for the many, many sites that offer poor search capability. In the search box type "wobulation site:soundandvisionmag.com" and the second hit will get you going. Remember and pass on this tip.
htwaits's Avatar htwaits 01:51 PM 04-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMightyTick View Post

There's a trick with the google search engine for the many, many sites that offer poor search capability. In the search box type "wobulation site:soundandvisionmag.com" and the second hit will get you going. Remember and pass on this tip.

Thanks for the tip. I'll impress my wife with it.
Don1959's Avatar Don1959 01:57 PM 04-23-2007
There is no "wobulator" in a DLP set. Wobulation is term used to describe the technique where 1 mirror handles 2 pixels on the screen... you could have called it the flickerator or the leanagator.

Also remember these mirrors do not "flash" once per frame per pixel giving you 120 times a second (60 per pixel) they are also blending colour (RGB) to get the desired shade of chartreuse (sp?) and also how bright the pixel will be.

So these mirrors may have to flash many times per pixel per frame to get the desired colour and intensity.

The last stats I read stated that these mirrors can activate some 15,000 times per second!

With the first "wobulated" DMD. the HD3 (used in Samsungs HLP line) the mirror became diamond shaped instead of square and the projected pixels were very slightly overlapped so you could no longer see the actual pixels as you could in the earlier non-wobulated chips such as the HD2 and HD2+.

Last but not least - these mirrors are very very small... there are over 1 million of them in an area the size of a postal stamp!

Don
snoguy's Avatar snoguy 02:04 PM 04-23-2007
i was the one that posted about the whine originally. It was high pitched and only occurred when there was an image on the screen. It was not intensely loud, but enough in a quiet room as quite noticeable.

Anyway long story short, we went back to swap it this morning. The model that was on display in the store had the whine as well, even louder. So i just returned the set intead of swapping it.

So now I dont know what to do. I'm considering my options, though one of the dealers here has the t5089 which is the up level model.

It's a pain to move around a tv that big, so I'm on pause for the moment, using my old 32inch sony for the moment.
joevfx's Avatar joevfx 02:06 PM 04-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMightyTick View Post

Here are the color plots of the gamuts and my interpreted results.

Normal to sRGB changes:
The magenta to orange lobe near the front bottom compresses. The other colors shift slightly.

sRGB to Wide changes:
The magenta to orange lobe near the front bottom spreads back out similar to Normal. The biggest change is that the green to cyan complete arc appears. In the Normal and sRGB spaces, the completed green to cyan arc is chopped off. Other slight color shifts.

Wide to Normal changes:
The biggest change is the above mentioned green to cyan arc from Wide is chopped off again. There are other slight color shifts.

In general, blue and yellow do not change too much.

Oh, I should have mentioned that the color bar image is coming from a calibartion DVD inserted into my XBox 360 HD-DVD drive connected to the HL-T6189S via the XBox 360 VGA cable. And the XBox 360 is set to output 1080p.

The 3D RGB color plots are generated from image processing software I wrote for my personal use for image analysis.

I wish I had an HDTV calibration disc (HD-DVD) to use, although I'm not sure it would tell me anything different. Is there an HD-DVD calibration disc available? (I am new to HD.)

so from you findings which setting do you believe will give the greatest results when playign back a blu ray movie or a PS3 game? and which settign woudl be best for regular HD cable?
kly69's Avatar kly69 02:08 PM 04-23-2007
I just ordered my 6187S, I get to pick it up Thursday. Now to find a new stand. Which stands are you guys using?
NocturnalEdit's Avatar NocturnalEdit 02:13 PM 04-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by slaizer2000 View Post

I would agree. When i first got the system the dynamic was way too hot and bright on colors. But i was coming from a 7 year old RPTV standard def Tv which never had its bulbs replaced.

I switched to movie mode which at the time looked much better than dynamic. After a few days of watching i began to think the colors were not vibrant enough and too dark/muted (even at fourm settings posted by other users). I switched to dynamic and altho a bit hotter didn't bother me as much as it did when i first saw it in dynamic out of the box.

After a few days of leaving it at dynamic it no longer looks to hot for me but looks more vibrant or robust than movie mode and i prefer it much more. I think my eyes got desensitized to the briogth vivid colors and now could handle it.

Alot of people may not like this as it doesn't look as realistic as movie mode. So its all a personal preference.

*********

I've gone back and forth between standard and movie mode myself. Standard/Dynamic looks great on sports and anything in broad daylight outdoors. If it's indoors in low light... you'll start seeing noise/artifacts in the blacks.. and the colors are pushed to unnatural pastels. Movie mode gives great, natural skin tones and colors... But adds a "shade".. almost grey tint to low-lit scenes and .. atleast on my 2006 LED 5679W... washes out the blacks a bit. I countered this effect for anything going thru my DVD player though... I boosted the internal brightness/contrast and gamma of my DVD player picture settings.. which made all modes other than movie mode too bright... but made "move mode" perfect. This has made watching DVDs almost as good as HD material through my cable box. I was watching Blade 2 on TNT HD this weekend.. and compared it to my Standard Def DVD of Blade 2.... I honestly was hard pressed to see any difference in quality... except in really wide shots where resolution plays more of a factor.. it was THAT good. I'm sure Blu-Ray or HD-DVD would blow away my HD over cable box signal.. but i'm very happy with my tweaked "movie mode" for my DVD collection.

For the most part i've settled into "movie mode" for most everything.. just cause switching modes all the time drove my girlfriend crazy! lol. Just curious... anyone seeing color banding in the 2007 LED models OTB? I have a 2006 with a lot of color banding at first, but I've i fixed via Movie Mode and internal dvd player setting tweaks.
psklenar's Avatar psklenar 02:27 PM 04-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Hester View Post

Anyone using Faroudja-based equipment with their HL-T's seeing any color banding/polarization, etc. in dark scenes, fades to black, etc.? DVD players like the Oppo DV-981HD, Oppo OPDV971H, Samsung 960, etc. ...

Yes. Oppo DV-981-HD and HL-T5087S. configured to feed 1080p to the TV via HDMI. Used Avia to calibrate the TV. Have watched two DVD's so far ... Harry Potter 3 and Casino Royale ... no sign of macrobocking or color banding yet.
psklenar's Avatar psklenar 02:30 PM 04-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMightyTick View Post

Probably this diagram: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hdt...dtv-page3.html

And the attached picture PICT2156.JPG is a picture of an actual chip. Pictures PICT2153.JPG and PICT2154.JPG are an overview of the chip, back and descriptive card that TI was giving out at the Home Entertainment show in NYC a couple of years ago. And now I finally have a TV that has one of these inside it!
LL
LL
LL
Wesley Hester's Avatar Wesley Hester 05:05 PM 04-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by psklenar View Post

Yes. Oppo DV-981-HD and HL-T5087S. configured to feed 1080p to the TV via HDMI. Used Avia to calibrate the TV. Have watched two DVD's so far ... Harry Potter 3 and Casino Royale ... no sign of macrobocking or color banding yet.

Great to know. Thank you for the information. Both of those titles have some good dark/low light scenes that would have brought out macroblocking/color banding if it was going to be produced on screen.

I have the first gen HL-S5679W and I am looking to get a HL-T6189 in addition to it. Don't need the same limitations.
Avio's Avatar Avio 05:08 PM 04-23-2007
I expect to be receiving my HLT5689S as a warranty replacement for my HLS5679W on Wednesday, 4/25/07. All HLS5679W's are known to have a sluggish, unresponsive Remote.

How is the responsiveness and cursor speed of the 2007 HLTxx89S stock remote control?

Did Samsung fix the 2006 problem with the 2007 models?

Thanks. Avio
Chuckl's Avatar Chuckl 05:38 PM 04-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMightyTick
I created a 1920x1080 all black JPEG image, copied it to a USB flash drive, displayed it on my HL-T6189S and viewed it with the Gamut set to Normal, sRGB, and Wide and I see only a stable black image, no flicker, in all gamuts.

I experienced the same flickering.

 

black.zip 0.755859375k . file
Attached: black.zip (774 Bytes) 
slaizer2000's Avatar slaizer2000 06:08 PM 04-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avio View Post

I expect to be receiving my HLT5689S as a warranty replacement for my HLS5679W on Wednesday, 4/25/07. All HLS5679W's are known to have a sluggish, unresponsive Remote.

How is the responsiveness and cursor speed of the 2007 HLTxx89S stock remote control?

Did Samsung fix the 2006 problem with the 2007 models?

Thanks. Avio

I've never seen any type of sluggish response from the remote.

Cursor speed if you mean navigating through the menus with the arrow keys on the remote. IF you click too fast it doesn't respond. But only if your clicking really fast. If you hold the button down it scrolls thru the menu very quick, too quick. so only sluggishness i would say it has if your trying to rapidly push the button over and over.
shinka's Avatar shinka 06:10 PM 04-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don1959 View Post

There is no "wobulator" in a DLP set.

Yes there is, the DLP chip in the Samsungs has a 960 x 1080 matrix of mirrors that works together with an additional "moving mirror actuator" (wobulator) that doubles the DLP pixels to produce 1920 x 1080 individually controllable pixels on the screen. Same end result as using a 1920 x 1080 DLP chip but at much lower cost.
slaizer2000's Avatar slaizer2000 06:12 PM 04-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckl View Post

I experienced the same flickering.

I did not see any flickering.
Possible your eyes are very sensitive and can respond to the frequency of the display.

If you have flourescent lights this can cause it. I've seen fluorescent lights cause screens to appear to flicker. Kind of causes a strobe like effect.

Also my display is in 1080P so it might be more noticeable in 1080i? because of the interlaced data?
htwaits's Avatar htwaits 06:17 PM 04-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don1959 View Post

There is no "wobulator" in a DLP set. Wobulation is term used to describe the technique where 1 mirror handles 2 pixels on the screen... you could have called it the flickerator or the leanagator.

This part is wrong.

The wobulator or optical actuator is what makes it possible for one DMD mirror to control two pixels on the screen.

Note that in the diagram the "optical actuator" is sometimes referred to as a wobulator. It's redirecting a sub-frame of pixels from one location on the screen to the adjacent pixel location. The redirection is less than one pixel width.

Check the Wobulation Diagram at the bottom of my post.

Quote:


Also remember these mirrors do not "flash" once per frame per pixel giving you 120 times a second (60 per pixel) they are also blending colour (RGB) to get the desired shade of chartreuse (sp?) and also how bright the pixel will be.

So these mirrors may have to flash many times per pixel per frame to get the desired colour and intensity.

The last stats I read stated that these mirrors can activate some 15,000 times per second!

With the first "wobulated" DMD. the HD3 (used in Samsungs HLP line) the mirror became diamond shaped instead of square and the projected pixels were very slightly overlapped so you could no longer see the actual pixels as you could in the earlier non-wobulated chips such as the HD2 and HD2+.

Last but not least - these mirrors are very very small... there are over 1 million of them in an area the size of a postal stamp!

Don

This part is right.
LL
Ed4252's Avatar Ed4252 06:28 PM 04-23-2007
I plan on getting the onkyo HT-SR800 HTIB in addition to a Samsung DLP. I've learned that the Onkyo uses 2 HDMI Inputs and 1 Output (1080p Pass-thru)
and HDTV-Capable (50 MHz) Component Video Switching (3 Inputs/1 Output). Sorry I'm quite the noob. Does this mean that the 89 series won't take advantage of the HDMI 1.3 and I should just get the 87 series instead?
aaronwt's Avatar aaronwt 06:59 PM 04-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by shinka View Post

Yes there is, the DLP chip in the Samsungs has a 960 x 1080 matrix of mirrors that works together with an additional "moving mirror actuator" (wobulator) that doubles the DLP pixels to produce 1920 x 1080 individually controllable pixels on the screen. Same end result as using a 1920 x 1080 DLP chip but at much lower cost.

All RP DLP sets use wobulation now. There aren't any non wobulated RP DLP sets anymore. Hopefully next year TI will start using the non wobulated 1920x1080 chip for RP sets that is currently available for FP displays.
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