2007 Samsung LED Owner's Thread (HLT XX87/89S) - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

What sort of scene causes them for you, and what do they look like?

I can see RBE only in certain circumstances.

One easy way for me to reproduce it was with the THX video optomizer test, I believe from the Nemo DVD. There are 2 tests that show circles in the center of the screen, for 4:3 and 16:9 geometery testing. They are gray circles on black backgrounds. If I look around the screen, I see the circle break into 3 closely spaced rings of red, green, and blue.

Other places I notice are on dark scenes with small light objects. In Harry Potter: Sorcerer's Stone, there is a scene in a dark room with a single bright candle. The RBE there was fairly pronounced, if I went looking for it.

Otherwise, it's definitely better than a color wheel based display. I don't consider the amount of RBE in the xx89S models a deal breaker.
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post #182 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 10:07 AM
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I went into the service menu of my 6189S yesterday, and took pictures of all of my current settings (for future reference, just in case). I don't plan on changing anything for a while, but perhaps eventually.

I noticed the CCA menu was available. I thought I recalled Westley Hestler of Klac report in the 5679W thread that this function was ghosted out. Is it possible it's now accessible for LED models when previously it wasn't?


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post #183 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Morseth View Post

The RBE there was fairly pronounced, if I went looking for it.

Thanks for the information.

Are you seeing a flash of red, green and blue, or a ring of the same colors?

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post #184 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morseth View Post

I noticed the CCA menu was available. I thought I recalled Westley Hestler of Klac report in the 5679W thread that this function was ghosted out. Is it possible it's now accessible for LED models when previously it wasn't?

The grayed out options have usually been input type dependent. One example, if my memory is working, is that to turn overscan off on a HL-S5679 or HL-Sxx88 set it was necessary to be using a HDMI port with an active 1080i input signal. Or something similar to that.

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post #185 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 10:50 AM
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Talked with a salesman at the Tweeters in Greenville SC and he informed me that these sets should be arriving this up coming Tuesday (4/10/07) and that they should have them set-up on the floor by the following Saturday.

So just a heads up for the people wanting to see these sets in person. I know I am!

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post #186 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 10:55 AM
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In case people missed the post, can someone please provide the dimensions of the stand for the 56" and/or 61" models? Thanks.

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post #187 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Some people are happy with their RPTV sets over their fire places. One thing you can do is tilt the TV slightly toward you with shims. At thirty inches it wouldn't take much tilt.

In past model years people have removed the TV's stand because they like the appearance better. If that's possible this year, tilting the TV wouldn't be so obvious, and you wouldn't have to tilt it as much.

Or you could sell the stand.

I'm in a similar situation as I have a custom built-in made and lowering/changing is not an option as they are installing it tomorrow. Would it make sense to purchase a bulb based DLP as opposed to the LED? I think tilting is the way I'll have to work it out and hope it's not going to be too bad (somehow I don't think it will be).
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post #188 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Thanks for the information.

Are you seeing a flash of red, green and blue, or a ring of the same colors?


Sorry htwaits, I'm not sure I fully understand your question. I see the single circle break into 3 closely spaced circles, each circle composed of one of the 3 primary colors.

I've attached a picture trying to illustrate what I see in the circle test pattern.
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post #189 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 11:16 AM
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Have any other owners checked the convergence of their displays yet? I'm trying to decide if my small amount of vertical mis-convergence on about the top 1/5th of my screen is normal. I can only really see it when displaying test patterns, but I know it's there.

Is this typical with DLPs in general? I was under the impression that uniform convergence was a plus in DLPs favor. Is it possible that something got bumped or twisted in shipping, or when we removed it from the box to put on the TV stand? We were as careful as possible when unboxing it and picking it up.

I could understand if the entire screen was mis-converged, but I'm unsure how this would happen on only a portion of the screen. I don't pretend to know everything about DLP technology; thus why I'm asking you fine folks.


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post #190 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Sangone View Post

Would it make sense to purchase a bulb based DLP as opposed to the LED?

It wouldn't unless you have had a chance to compare the two. I don't think the HL-S5679 is necessarily a good predictor of vertical viewing angles for this year's LED sets. The screens, which control viewing angles, seem to be different. Time will tell.

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post #191 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morseth View Post

Sorry htwaits, I'm not sure I fully understand your question. I see the single circle break into 3 closely spaced circles, each circle composed of one of the 3 primary colors.

Rainbows do not persist. They are just a very quick flash. Here is a simulation that people who see rainbows think is valid.

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Originally Posted by kelpie View Post

This link has a simulation of what rainbows look like to some people.

Quote:


I've attached a picture trying to illustrate what I see in the circle test pattern.

What you are illustrating looks more like a lens artifact (Chromatic Aberration) to me. It's an effect that looks something like convergence problems on CRT projectors, or three chip microchip projectors.

If you look at that high contrast test pattern, and move your eyes rapidly, rainbows would look like very fast flashes of light trailing the white image. Of course that behavior in the typical home movie environment might get you ejected.

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post #192 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by kelpie
This link has a simulation of what rainbows look like to some people.

I can't even see any rainbows in that simulation. Looks perfectly normal to me.

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post #193 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Morseth View Post

Have any other owners checked the convergence of their displays yet?

I'm not sure what's causing your image problem. My understanding is that it's impossible to have convergence problems on a single chip projector. There is nothing to converge.

Chromatic Aberration can look similar to convergence problems. An example would be white text on a black background where you can see primary color fringing the white characters.

Here are some comments by Arun Gupta from 2003 about color fringes on test patterns.

Three posts on color fringes and test patterns.

David Abrams on convergence ... 2005.

"With that said, it is important to remember that the calibration does not include items such as convergence, since these displays do not require convergence."

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post #194 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 11:51 AM
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Maybe you can saw the legs off the one you've bought.

Unfortunately it is solid wood from top to bottom, there are no legs to saw off or remove and trying to alter it would destroy it.
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post #195 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by terminatorbob View Post

I can't even see any rainbows in that simulation. Looks perfectly normal to me.

As the text moves up or down the rainbows are on the trailing edges of the type. They flash once for each movement up and down, and they are very fast.

Keep in mind that it's a simulation, and not the real thing, so anyone should be able to see them on any display. Even I can see them.

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post #196 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 12:37 PM
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I just remeasured my TV stand. Its the Bush 97850-03 stand. Its 24". I will put my hl-t5089, 50" Samsung on it. Does anyone think this will be to high ? I just know that the 17" stand I saw at the store seemed way to low.
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post #197 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

As the type moves up or down the rainbows are on the trailing edges of the type. They flash once for each movement up and down, and they are very fast.

Keep in mind that it's a simulation, and not the real thing, so anyone should be able to see them on any display. Even I can see them.

Oh ok. Now I see them. Gotta look pretty hard though.

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post #198 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Morseth View Post

I went into the service menu of my 6189S yesterday, and took pictures of all of my current settings (for future reference, just in case).

Does it use the same codes as the HL-R and HL-S models?

Might be a little early for this question... Do the User menus reduce the need to go into the Service Menu vs the previous HL-S and HL-R models? For example, can either position, color gamut, gray scale, gamma selection, etc which previously required the Sevice Menu be adjusted via the User menus?

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post #199 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by donb1948 View Post

Might be a little early for this question... Do the User menus reduce the need to go into the Service Menu vs the previous HL-S and HL-R models? For example, can either position, color gamut, gray scale, gamma selection, etc which previously required the Sevice Menu be adjusted via the User menus?

By reading the HLTxx89S Owner's Manual I determined that the following new settings are available in the User Menus:

- Black level adjustment
- White balance adjustment
- "Just Scan" Picture size mode
- Color Gamut setting including sRGB format
- Screen Position setting

The Screen Position setting was only available in the Service Menu on my HLS5679W. I'm not sure, but I think that the "Just Scan" Picture size mode is similar to turning off overscan and turning on 1:1 pixel mapping. Overscan Off used to be available in the Service Menu only on my HLS5679W.

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post #200 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Rainbows do not persist. They are just a very quick flash. Here is a simulation that people who see rainbows think is valid.

What you are illustrating looks more like a lens artifact to me. I can't remember what it's called, but it's not what's referred to as a rainbow here at AVS. It's an effect that looks something like convergence problems on CRT projectors, or three chip microchip projectors.

If you look at that high contrast test pattern, and move your eyes rapidly, rainbows would look like very fast flashes of light trailing the white image. Of course that behavior in the typical home movie environment might get you ejected.

Yes, they are very fast flashes of light, that only persist while my eyes are rapidly moving. Probably only milliseconds in duration. If I just stare at the image of the gray circle or if my eyes aren't rapidly moving, it's perfectly razor sharp (not a convergence type issue).

So, what I am describing is not RBE?
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post #201 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

There is a lens artifact that can look similar to convergence problems. An example would be white text on a black background where you can see primary color fringing the white characters.

This sounds like a very reasonable and plausable explanation. Thanks very much for the links, I'll be sure to check them out.

Perhaps it is some sort of fringing after all, rather than an actual convergence issue. It's only visible with high contrast images, like thin white horizontal lines on a black background. It not bad at all. I just tend to be a bit of a perfectionist, so little details bother me sometimes.

And here I thought my only concerns with optical fringing were with my 5" refractor telescope. Looks like I can't escape fringing no matter where I go!
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post #202 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 02:02 PM
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My TV stand is exactly 21" tall. So I assume that's still within tolerance of the vertical viewing angle - I hope!

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post #203 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morseth View Post

Yes, they are very fast flashes of light, that only persist while my eyes are rapidly moving. Probably only milliseconds in duration. If I just stare at the image of the gray circle or if my eyes aren't rapidly moving, it's perfectly razor sharp (not a convergence type issue).

So, what I am describing is not RBE?

Now it is.

Your original descriptions left room for doubt, or hope -- depending.

It's still true that what one sees watching normal material, not thinking about rainbows, or doing eye exercises, is the most important consideration for prospective buyers.

These three or four posts by collinp make a valid argument that what you have experienced is possible.

Collinp's analysis of rainbows and current LED light engines

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post #204 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 02:10 PM
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i have been looking at buying the new samsung LED DLP, but i think the rainbow issue might be a deal-killer for me, as i am VERY sensitive to them on color wheel sets (i get headaches)

For those who dont understand why the rainbow effect can still happen on these new LED DLPs -- the rainbows occur because the Red Green and Blue lights are flashing on and off rapidly for various amounts of time (as are the mirrors) in order to give the appearance of various mixed colors and brightness. So if you have sensitive eyes, and shift your vision quickly from one corner of the screen to the other, you get the sense of seeing the same exact image in Red Green and Blue trailing in slightly different places. It must have something to do with the refresh rate of your eyeballs as to why some are very sensitive to rainbows and others dont see them at all. I am also sensitive to 60hz computer monitors as well.

The effect should be greatly reduced on these sets because the speed at which the R G and B are flashing is significantly faster than the old color wheel version.

I think I will still wait for an affordable 3-chip DLP set to make the switch. Until then, I stick with Lcos, LCD or Plasma (even though I LOVE the clarity and color of DLP), because once I see the rainbows, I am ruined.
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post #205 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by gbohn1 View Post

i have been looking at buying the new samsung LED DLP, but i think the rainbow issue might be a deal-killer for me, as i am VERY sensitive to them on color wheel sets (i get headaches)

For those who dont understand why the rainbow effect can still happen on these new LED DLPs -- the rainbows occur because the Red Green and Blue lights are flashing on and off rapidly for various amounts of time (as are the mirrors) in order to give the appearance of various mixed colors and brightness. So if you have sensitive eyes, and shift your vision quickly from one corner of the screen to the other, you get the sense of seeing the same exact image in Red Green and Blue trailing in slightly different places. It must have something to do with the refresh rate of your eyeballs as to why some are very sensitive to rainbows and others dont see them at all. I am also sensitive to 60hz computer monitors as well.

The effect should be greatly reduced on these sets because the speed at which the R G and B are flashing is significantly faster than the old color wheel version.

I think I will still wait for an affordable 3-chip DLP set to make the switch. Until then, I stick with Lcos, LCD or Plasma (even though I LOVE the clarity and color of DLP), because once I see the rainbows, I am ruined.

Since you are that sensitive to RBE (headaches and all), you're better off staying with plasma or LCD instead.

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post #206 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

It's still true that what one sees watching normal material, not thinking about rainbows, or doing eye exercises, is the most important consideration for prospective buyers.

I couldn't agree with that statement more.

This LED set is still far better than previous color wheel DLP units that I've seen, in regards to RBE. When I look at bulb based DLPs in the stores, I see RBE all the time on just about every set without even "trying" to see it.

With the LED model, I can only see it in very select circumstances, and mostly it's me trying to (subconsciously) see it on purpose. When I do catch an accidental glimpse of it, it's a little bit distracting. But thankfully, it's rare enough to not be a huge problem for me. I have no regrets about my purchase, as I am still very pleased with the overall picture quality and screen size. I got a lot of quality for far less money than I ever imagined.

The whole family is here right now watching movies on it. I've gotten nothing but positive comments from them about it so far. I want to see if anybody mentions anything about RBE, headaches, etc. My guess is, no one will even notice it. Ignorance is truly bliss...
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post #207 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morseth View Post

I want to see if anybody mentions anything about RBE, headaches, etc.

Headaches and related reactions can also be caused by the extreme contrast between scenes when a very bright set is watched in a very dark room. Bias lighting can relieve that problem, and also trick one into seeing better blacks.

I have a niece who was fine watching normal programming, but when I switched to the Samsung blue screen she was extremely uncomfortable. In over four years of DLP reading I haven't run into that one anywhere else.

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post #208 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbohn1 View Post

i have been looking at buying the new samsung LED DLP, but i think the rainbow issue might be a deal-killer for me, as i am VERY sensitive to them on color wheel sets (i get headaches) I am also sensitive to 60hz computer monitors as well.

The effect should be greatly reduced on these sets because the speed at which the R G and B are flashing is significantly faster than the old color wheel version.

I think I will still wait for an affordable 3-chip DLP set to make the switch. Until then, I stick with Lcos, LCD or Plasma (even though I LOVE the clarity and color of DLP), because once I see the rainbows, I am ruined.

You sound just like me. I can walk around our office building and tell whose CRT monitors are running at 60Hz. I had the HP MD5880 for their 3 week trial period. Absolutely loved the picture and overall performance but the RBE gave me headaches and at times made me feel nauseated.

To date, I've been underwhelmed by LCD and plasma for a variety of reasons while like you very impressed with the sharpness of DLP. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed. It'll be about a month before I'm in a position to buy so hopefully one of the HLT LEDs will be on display in my area by then and it will be sufficiently comfortable for me to go with.
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post #209 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 03:15 PM
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Let me forst start off my saying these sets (HLT6189S) look terrible OTB. Putting it in movie mode makes it much more tolerable, but far from accuate (IMO).

One thing I noticed is it looks like Sammy took away the ability to defeat the 1:1 pixil mapping (overscan). Unless I am missing it in the SM, it appears that is now gone :-(

Eliab will be doing a full calibration within the next 2 weeks. He has one in the lab now and is going through his methodology and madness (a good thing). If not before, I will give my 2 cents as to our findings during the calibration. I am sure Eliab will post something prior based on his fiundings in the lab.

Overall, still a nice set and know if will get better with a accurate cal.
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post #210 of 14896 Old 04-08-2007, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

What you are illustrating looks more like a lens artifact to me. I can't remember what it's called, but it's not what's referred to as a rainbow here at AVS. It's an effect that looks something like convergence problems on CRT projectors, or three chip microchip projectors.

Not sure, but are you referring to Chromatic Aberration? That's generally an artifact from the lens (as you mentioned).

Chris
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