Official Toshiba 65HM167 and 57HM167 Owner's thread - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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Old 06-14-2007, 06:34 AM
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shelly - my set has about 5-10% push on the color chart (to my eye anyway) of the Avia test disc. Its not noticable to me during normal viewing (color temp set to warm).

I have no line at the top of my screen.
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Old 06-14-2007, 07:56 AM
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Thanks for the feedback, mrphilby.

This morning I had planned to call CC for a replacement set because of the line (just knowing it was there could be distracting) but I turned on the tv just to double check and now, after an hour or so, there is still no line.

Yesterday, when I first discovered it afer having the tv for one week, I had been watching for about 4-6 hours which was the longest it had been on in one stretch.

So I will see if there are any changes later today while keeping the set on.

Seems like red push is abundant with rptvs. I remember going into my old Sony crt rptv service menu, and there was a control called Axis that was able to decrease the red push significantly on that set.

Shelly

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Old 06-14-2007, 08:12 AM
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I have not noticed the red push. I have a Samsung HLS 56 and the 65HM167. Unfortunately they are on 2 different floors and I have not put them side by side for comparison. Neither set has had a professional calibration.

Both sets have SSE. The Samsung is a bit worse in this area. Bright scenes have more glitter and the screen grain is easier to see on the Sammy.

I have two issues with the Toshiba. The first is one small speck in the center of the right lower quarter on the set. I can see it if I look for it but only on light colored scenes. I can probably live with it since I have to actively focus on the area to find it during regular shows.

The second issue bothers me more and is making me consider a return. This involves the color. the Sammy is bright but the colors seem natural and stable from shot to shot. The Toshiba has a lot more variability. It is best seen in the reproduction of black and dark colors. A black jacket looks black outdoors. Indoors in can be black but on many shots if has a green tint. This happens with DVD material and HD broadcast (OTA antenna). In fact the flesh tones of the faces have a greenish tint in the shadows.

Changing the setting to medium or warm does not help. Changing the bulb from low to high does not help. Adjusting the tint to toward red does not help. Flesh tones become redder but the green tone in black (and gray) colors persists in shots that are not bright. I am now obsessed with watching the color of dark clothing in the show. Suits, dresses, chairs etc can be black or greenish in the same program scene depending on the camera angle. The colors seem more stable on the Sammy.

Has anyone else seen this? Is it a function of poor calibration on my set? Is the Toshiba showing more of the true color? It the set defective?
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Old 06-14-2007, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shelly View Post

A couple of issues with my set.

Video and live feeds have strong reds but not really pushed to glowing. this seems to be more of a film source problem. I do not have my hd dvd player yet(comes Saturday) so my hd fims are the premium HBO et al channels from Comcast.

I wonder if the problem with the display of red is connected to the reported problem these sets have deinterlacing 1080i signals.

You're seeing the problem with films, which are subject to the interlacing problem. Video works fine, which may explain why some reds present properly while others don't.

The problem many sets have properly deinterlacing may explain why some people are "blown away" by HD DVD or BD, while others see a minimal improvement over traditonal DVDs or HDTV. Losing 1/2 the resolution with film based sources would still generate a good image, but not as good as it can get.
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Old 06-14-2007, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by aydu View Post

I wonder if the problem with the display of red is connected to the reported problem these sets have deinterlacing 1080i signals.

You're seeing the problem with films, which are subject to the interlacing problem. Video works fine, which may explain why some reds present properly while others don't.

The problem many sets have properly deinterlacing may explain why some people are "blown away" by HD DVD or BD, while others see a minimal improvement over traditonal DVDs or HDTV. Losing 1/2 the resolution with film based sources would still generate a good image, but not as good as it can get.

I can't image that they are related as the interlacing problem shows itself with less clarity in the picture.

Even with video and live, the reds are strong, more so than the green and blue.

It has to be a color decoder issue. Through the years, toshiba had excellent color decoders. Things may have changed some.

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Old 06-14-2007, 02:05 PM
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So has anyone actually tried inputting a 1080P signal into the VGA input? Does it show anything?

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Old 06-14-2007, 02:32 PM
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sorry don't have VGA connection - I'm going DVI -> HDMI.

If i set my laptops rez to 1080 - I either get overscan (prob 1/2" - 1"), or if i uncheck the overscan option, i get underscan (about 2" unused screen all the way around). Since being able to see my whole screen is more important than using all the TV screen, i typically leave overscan unchecked.
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Old 06-14-2007, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

So has anyone actually tried inputting a 1080P signal into the VGA input? Does it show anything?


Tried it with an Xbox 360. Any resolution above 1024x768 resulted in a message on the lower left hand corner of the screen saying "unsupported" or something like that. I was so sad
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Old 06-14-2007, 02:44 PM
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Problem update:

I'm not sure why or how but after about 10 hours now on my lamp, the horizontal line has not reapeared at all on all sources and the red push is about half of what it was, making reds vibrant but not glowing, and looking red rather than magenta.

I jus turned on the HD golf broadcast on NBC and the first player I saw had a bright red pole shirt on. Looked great.

I'll be keeping my set and feel much releived for now that these small anomalies have been resolved on their own.

Shelly

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Old 06-15-2007, 02:31 AM
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For me, setting the color temperature to warm resulted in an unnatural, and noticeably red tinted grayscale. This to me indicates that on my set, the warm setting is actually below 6500k, but it's hard to say without real measuring equipment.

Anyway, I left it on medium.
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Old 06-15-2007, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vantagesc View Post

For me, setting the color temperature to warm resulted in an unnatural, and noticeably red tinted grayscale. This to me indicates that on my set, the warm setting is actually below 6500k, but it's hard to say without real measuring equipment.

Anyway, I left it on medium.

Even the "manual" says that Wam will give a reddish hue, Medium will be neutral and High will be bluish. In some of my previously owned toshibas, it was impossible for any of the color temps to give a good black and white.

I, too, leave it on Medium.

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Old 06-15-2007, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by vhato View Post

Tried it with an Xbox 360. Any resolution above 1024x768 resulted in a message on the lower left hand corner of the screen saying "unsupported" or something like that. I was so sad

That is the one thing that I was concerned with in buying this set. Now I need to try and find a 360 Elite. They are very difficult to find around here.
Although I guess I can use the component inputs at 1080i temporarily. I guess if the component inputs accepted 1080P that would be an option but according to the specs the HDMI inputs are the only ones that accept 1080P.

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Old 06-15-2007, 12:38 PM
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can anyone tell me if this tv will accept a 1080p input via HDMI? I was under the impression that it did(from Tosh website), until I went to RC willey last night and the salesmen told me that it does not except 1080p only 1080i through hdmi

thanks : )
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Old 06-15-2007, 12:41 PM
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Update on the 2 black specs I have:

Both service center and Toshiba agree they do not interfere with normal TV viewing therefore they refuse to replace the screen (or repair it)

Toshiba is now off my list.
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Old 06-15-2007, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mr stroke View Post

can anyone tell me if this tv will accept a 1080p input via HDMI? I was under the impression that it did(from Tosh website), until I went to RC willey last night and the salesmen told me that it does not except 1080p only 1080i through hdmi

thanks : )

These new Toshiba's hm167s accept 1080p via HDMI, it was the previous models that didn't, the 196 ones or whatever. Nice to know a salesperson looks what's new with a new tv. (note: it was common that a lot of early 1080p tvs only accepted upto 1080i, I think Toshiba was the last to change)
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Old 06-15-2007, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by broketoo View Post

Update on the 2 black specs I have:

Both service center and Toshiba agree they do not interfere with normal TV viewing therefore they refuse to replace the screen (or repair it)

Toshiba is now off my list.

How could it not effect viewing? You bought a "new tv", you didn't buy a "a new black specs that shouldn't be there tv"

I missed though, are these "spots", as in atleast the size of a pea, or specks, as in tiny grains of sand specs or pixels? Either way a new tv should have it fixed, I'm just wondering exactly what they qualify as not interfering with normal viewing. Kind of a like how some companies won't replace a LCD screen unless there is a certain number of dead pixels.

Is it like this? which was really really distracting: http://other.toonguru.com/tv/toshiba_009.jpg
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Old 06-15-2007, 12:56 PM
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How could it not effect viewing? You bought a "new tv", you didn't buy a "a new black specs that shouldn't be there tv"

I missed though, are these "spots", as in atleast the size of a pea, or specks, as in tiny grains of sand specs or pixels? Either way a new tv should have it fixed, I'm just wondering exactly what they qualify as not interfering with normal viewing. Kind of a like how some companies won't replace a LCD screen unless there is a certain number of dead pixels.

Is it like this? which was really really distracting: http://other.toonguru.com/tv/toshiba_009.jpg

They are "specks, as in tiny grains of sand specs or pixels" (quoted you) .. they take up 2-3 pixels. Nothing like picture you posted. I agree a new TV shouldn't have any screen flaws. Quoted the company, "it is not cost effective to replace the screen, there's nothing we can do at this time"
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Old 06-15-2007, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by broketoo View Post

They are "specks, as in tiny grains of sand specs or pixels" (quoted you) .. they take up 2-3 pixels. Nothing like picture you posted. I agree a new TV shouldn't have any screen flaws. Quoted the company, "it is not cost effective to replace the screen, there's nothing we can do at this time"

Not cost effective? They just lost a customer for life! I would think a new screen would have been worth keeping a customer. They might as well not even include a warranty, with just a few words saying they won't make any repairs because it will cost them something. It's not up to them to be telling customers on how they should feel about a defects severity and impact, if something bothers a customer, then it's a problem, no ifs or buts.

I'd understand if they replaced the screen 3 times and you still complained about specks, then it's clear there's no solution to their manufacturing process and you would have to go somewhere else or live with it I guess, but for them not to even try, how discouraging.

Can you exchange it from the place you bought it at?
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Old 06-15-2007, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by broketoo View Post

They are "specks, as in tiny grains of sand specs or pixels" (quoted you) .. they take up 2-3 pixels. Nothing like picture you posted. I agree a new TV shouldn't have any screen flaws. Quoted the company, "it is not cost effective to replace the screen, there's nothing we can do at this time"

Are they anything like the plastic screw shavings that others have discussed in this and the other thread? if so you MAY be able to clean them yourself (following the instructions someone posted)

I know that doesn't change your mind about Toshiba in general, but if you can't return to the place of purchase it could at least solve your problem and give you a speck free viewing experience.
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Old 06-15-2007, 01:32 PM
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Not cost effective? They just lost a customer for life! I would think a new screen would have been worth keeping a customer. They might as well not even include a warranty, with just a few words saying they won't make any repairs because it will cost them something. It's not up to them to be telling customers on how they should feel about a defects severity and impact, if something bothers a customer, then it's a problem, no ifs or buts.

I'd understand if they replaced the screen 3 times and you still complained about specks, then it's clear there's no solution to their manufacturing process and you would have to go somewhere else or live with it I guess, but for them not to even try, how discouraging.

Can you exchange it from the place you bought it at?

I completely agree with you just said. First and last time I've dealt with Toshiba - maybe I'll call back tonight after I cooled off and reason with them. I never said anything bad to them on the phone - I was just speechless.

Nope, I already returned the last set for different problems and I don't feel like dealing with BestBuy anymore.
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Old 06-15-2007, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by mrphilby View Post

Are they anything like the plastic screw shavings that others have discussed in this and the other thread? if so you MAY be able to clean them yourself (following the instructions someone posted)

I know that doesn't change your mind about Toshiba in general, but if you can't return to the place of purchase it could at least solve your problem and give you a speck free viewing experience.

The service guy tried cleaning behind the screen but he couldnt because it's between two screens. But I'll look for that instruction later tonight to see. Thanks.
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Old 06-15-2007, 01:48 PM
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I just heard service man was a level 3 child sex offender - verified name/picture from www.familywatchdog.us =\\ Just wonderful - he was in my house yesterday - oh Toshiba is going to hear it from me tonight.
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Old 06-15-2007, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by broketoo View Post

I just heard service man was a level 3 child sex offender - verified name/picture from www.familywatchdog.us =\\ Just wonderful - he was in my house yesterday - oh Toshiba is going to hear it from me tonight.

Does that mean that the person can't be a service Tech? That just means theyr were convicted of something in the past. Past performance is not indicative of future performance.

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Old 06-15-2007, 02:27 PM
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Does that mean that the person can't be a service Tech? That just means theyr were convicted of something in the past. Past performance is not indicative of future performance.

Also Toshiba rarely hires the service techs, they usually contract the work out to local service centers...not sure if this was the case in your situation or not - but probably not Toshiba's fault.
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Old 06-15-2007, 04:28 PM
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Does that mean that the person can't be a service Tech? That just means theyr were convicted of something in the past. Past performance is not indicative of future performance.

You're obvioussly not a fan of Dr. Phil. One of his favorite phrases is that "the best predictor of future behavior is the past".

Whether you think he is an idiot or not, psychology does support this notion.

I do think that there is some issue with someone who was convited of a sexual offence (of any kind) being placed in a position where the individual does his work in a customer's home and unsupervised.
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Old 06-15-2007, 04:29 PM
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I completely agree with you just said. First and last time I've dealt with Toshiba - maybe I'll call back tonight after I cooled off and reason with them. I never said anything bad to them on the phone - I was just speechless.

Nope, I already returned the last set for different problems and I don't feel like dealing with BestBuy anymore.

If you're within the 30 day return window, you don't need a reason - just take it back and either start over with another brand or get your money back.

Having that flexibility is one of the only reasons I can think of for buying anything from BB.
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Old 06-15-2007, 04:44 PM
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You're obvioussly not a fan of Dr. Phil. One of his favorite phrases is that "the best predictor of future behavior is the past".

Whether you think he is an idiot or not, psychology does support this notion.

I do think that there is some issue with someone who was convited of a sexual offence (of any kind) being placed in a position where the individual does his work in a customer's home and unsupervised.

That could go for a person being convicted of anything, like assult or something. The circumstances of the conviction can make a big difference.This person may have been 18 and been with a 16 year old in HS and been convicted becasue the parents got pissed. The brother of a friend was in that situation 15 years ago and he is still labeled a sexual offender even though he would never consider raping or molesting a child or anyone. Plus there are people that have never been convicted of anything that could be a sexual offender. How do you stop them?

And back on topic. They aren't supposed to deliver my 65HM167 until 5-7 pm tommorow night . That puts a crimp on my plans tomorrow. I was hoping it would be delivered in the morning. If I could have scheduled a time like that I could have had it delivered on a weekday and left work a little early. And I would already be ejoying the set.

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Old 06-15-2007, 06:47 PM
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After much soul searching, i decided to take the plunge. I ordered the 57, and its on the way. The thing about 1080i really layed heavily on my mind. Why would you want a tv that didn't display full HD and HD DVD resolution(I own A1). I took a final stroll to my local BB And CC. And i just couldn't deny the picture, It has that extra umpf thats hard to describe, and resolution isn't everything. But i'm still interested in getting the most out of 1080i signals. I did some searching and i saw gefen has a new scaler. http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=4174. I wonder if it would convert 1080i to 1080p and not lose any lines of resolution. No it isnt a $1000 plus scaler, but the specs look good for the money and gefen has fixed all reported problems through firmware updates.
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Old 06-15-2007, 08:28 PM
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After much soul searching, i decided to take the plunge. I ordered the 57, and its on the way. The thing about 1080i really layed heavily on my mind. Why would you want a tv that didn't display full HD and HD DVD resolution(I own A1). I took a final stroll to my local BB And CC. And i just couldn't deny the picture, It has that extra umpf thats hard to describe, and resolution isn't everything. But i'm still interested in getting the most out of 1080i signals. I did some searching and i saw gefen has a new scaler. http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=4174. I wonder if it would convert 1080i to 1080p and not lose any lines of resolution. No it isnt a $1000 plus scaler, but the specs look good for the money and gefen has fixed all reported problems through firmware updates.

If what you want is 1080p from your HD-DVD player, wouldn't it be easier to buy a HD-A20 for $399 instead of an upscaler for $449? Unless you were really wanting the 5.1 analog out from your HD-A1
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Old 06-15-2007, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by TimothyB View Post

If what you want is 1080p from your HD-DVD player, wouldn't it be easier to buy a HD-A20 for $399 instead of an upscaler for $449? Unless you were really wanting the 5.1 analog out from your HD-A1

You must not be aware that the A20 does the 1080i60 (intermediate) to 1080p60 (final output) deinterlacing step incorrectly with film-based sources. This issue was detected during review and testing of the A20. As such, the A20's 1080p output is no better than sending 1080i from the A2 with the 167 line. With the 167 line, you will need the XA2 to maintain full resolution from the disc to the screen. The XA2 is the only Toshiba player that does the 1080i to 1080p step correctly.

In fact, if you have a TV that correctly deinterlaces film-based sources (the 57HM167 doesn't), sending 1080i from the A20 would actually yield a better picture than sending 1080p.

See here:http://www.ultimateavmag.com/hddiscplayers/507tosha20/
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Performance
I want to cut to the chase here. The 1080p output is primarily what separates this player from the cheaper HD-A2, and that's where I started. Looking at the battery of test patterns I have at my disposal, I immediately saw some alarming signs. Fine horizontal 1080p luma and chroma bursts from the Spears and Munsil test disc and sections of Video and Film Resolution Loss tests on the Silicon Optix HD Benchmark on HD DVD showed artifacts. In particular, the areas with the finest horizontal luma lines were strobing, or blinking. With a video processor, this would suggest that its deinterlacing of 1080i material to 1080p is suspect. But why would this be the case with a player with a 1080p output? Simple, it clearly suggests that the HD-A20 converts the 1080p signal from the disc to 1080i, and then deinterlaces it back to 1080p incorrectly.

Going further to check this with program material, I looked at the Vatican scenes from Mission: Impossible 3, which are loaded with torturous brickwork and other fine details. Sure enough, this scene threw the A20 into veritable fits at 1080p. Obvious moiré, line twitter and other artifacts were plentiful, and some of the images were noticeably softened in detail as a result of the motion artifacts
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Toshiba , Panasonic , Lcd Hdtv , Sony
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