Official Toshiba 65HM167 and 57HM167 Owner's thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 3135 Old 06-21-2007, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koan View Post

Do you mean the 167 set? This is what areyou4real used when he reported in this post (contrary to Piturra) that the 57HM167 failed the film resolution lost test - stadium. I tried to find out why this was when The Perfect Vision reported the 72HM196 performed inverse telecine correctly in its tests. The author of the Perfect Vision article told me he stood by the test he used.

areyou4real used the following criteria (posted in the AVS Forum > Blu-ray & HD DVD Areas > HD DVD Software area)...


Here's what the Official HD HQV Benchmark Testing & Scoring Guide reads ...

Quote:


(pg. 13)

FILM RESOLUTION LOSS TEST - STADIUM

Procedure
This test is a follow up test to the film resolution loss test. If you failed the previous test, you will fail this test. Pay attention to the stands. Any moiré or flickering in the upper stands indicates half resolution processing. This test provides you with a real world video that can show you how improper video processing can affect an active image. The stands in this stadium are very high in detail and a good processor, player or display should be able to reconstruct the intended 1080p image with all of its intended resolution properly.

No where in the FILM RESOLUTION LOSS TEST - STADIUM Procedure does it reads to score ... Sharp to Blurry.

So, I used the recommended HD HQV Benchmark Testing & Scoring Guide procedure and rated the Stadium Film clip looking for ...

Quote:


Any moiré or flickering in the upper stands.

Oh yeah, ... I didn't see any obvious "moiré or flickering" while the STADUIM Flim clip panned right to left 3 times!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by koan View Post

There are a couple of posts in the Display Calibration forum in this thread that indicate the film resolution SMPTE test can not always be trusted for measuring 3:2 pulldown capabilities. So the question is who is right on the stadium test?

I agree with Scott Wilkinson who performed The Perfect Vision Toshiba 72HM196 Review based on my personal results. Matter-a-fact, after living with my HD DVD Digital Video Essentials Calibrated 62HM196 since November 2006, ... Scott's' "Conclusion" say's it all for me ...

Quote:


Conclusion

The importance of a 1:1 mode cannot be overstated when it comes to 1920x1080 content without it, whatever scaling the processor does definitely degrades the image. This is one reason the 72HM196 looked so good displaying HD DVDs (as long as its natural aspect ratio was selected). Another factor is its apparent use of inverse telecine to deinterlace 1080i content, resulting in smooth, artifact-free motion.

All my action HD DVDs like "Sahara (Intro), Aeon Flux, Batman Begins, Serenity, Bourne Supremacy, The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938), etc." exhibit's very smooth, artifact-free motion during the action sequences on my 62HM196!!! (35 HD DVDs; w/7 HD DVDs coming - 3 pre-ordered & 4 from DiscountDvd 20% Off coupons).


Phil


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post #452 of 3135 Old 06-21-2007, 11:45 AM
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Phil,
Does this mean that an A2 would be an adequate choice to achieve 1080 lines of resolution for the HM167s, or do we still need a player with correct de-interlacing (only XA2 at the moment).
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post #453 of 3135 Old 06-21-2007, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by piturra View Post


No where in the FILM RESOLUTION LOSS TEST - STADIUM Procedure does it reads to score ... Sharp to Blurry.

So, I used the recommended HD HQV Benchmark Testing & Scoring Guide procedure and rated the Stadium Film clip looking for ...

Oh yeah, ... I didn't see any obvious "moiré or flickering" while the STADUIM Flim clip panned right to left 3 times!!!

Phil

Phil, it is very obvious to everyone that you adore your Toshiba and when anyone has anything negative to report about another Toshiba (not even your model), you get very excited.

First, if you read my original post when I tested the 57HM167, you will find that I provided a link to the scoring guide. I did use the guide while scoring the 57HM167 and I know what moire is. The stands were blurry and I did see a hint of moire - that's why I gave it a 5. The moire wasn't extremely obvious, but the bluriness was, IMO.

Second, I did try different DNR modes. Just because I didn't post it, don't assume I didn't try the other modes. When I tried HIGH, it looked to me like detail was lost compared to AUTO. I thought AUTO gave the best results. Again, the DNR scoring is very subjective. You see a 25, I see a 15.

Third, the scoring guide that you like to quote says this about the Stadium test, "This test is a follow up test to the film resolution loss test. If you failed the previous test, you will fail this test." By your own admission your 62HM196 failed the film resolution loss test. Is HQV wrong?

Again, my intention is not to trash all Toshibas, I'm only reporting what I found.
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post #454 of 3135 Old 06-21-2007, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by areyou4real View Post

...Third, the scoring guide that you like to quote says this about the Stadium test, "This test is a follow up test to the film resolution loss test. If you failed the previous test, you will fail this test." By your own admission your 62HM196 failed the film resolution loss test. Is HQV wrong?

That is the question, and according to this and followup posts in the Display Calibration forum, the HQV HD film resolution SMPTE test is sometimes wrong.
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post #455 of 3135 Old 06-21-2007, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by vantagesc View Post

Phil,
Does this mean that an A2 would be an adequate choice to achieve 1080 lines of resolution for the HM167s, or do we still need a player with correct de-interlacing (only XA2 at the moment).

That is what Phil and The Perfect Vision say their tests indicate, but not what areyou4real says his tests indicate. We don't have a definitive answer yet.
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post #456 of 3135 Old 06-21-2007, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koan View Post

That is the question, and according to this and followup posts in the Display Calibration forum, the HQV HD film resolution SMPTE test is sometimes wrong.

Thanks for the link. Very interesting . . . could HQV have put out a flawed test in the SMPTE film loss test? I hope someone finds out and can explain why the discrepancy is occurring.

I agree, the Stadium loss test is certainly more reflective of a real-world scenario. However, the Stadium test still showed some moire to my eyes on the 57HM167. I am going to try and test it again just to make sure the moire is still there.

Also, since the SMPTE test may be flawed, I am going to repeat the Stadium test again with Cinema Mode set Video one time and set to Film the second time. If the Video and Film mode settings still look identical with the Stadium test - this tells me that the 57HM167 is NOT doing 1080i IVTC. If they look different, it may in fact, be doing 1080i IVTC (if and only if the SMPTE test is also proven to be flawed).

I hope it passes and the SMPTE test is proven to be flawed - I may be able to save myself a lot of money by getting this TV.
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post #457 of 3135 Old 06-21-2007, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by areyou4real View Post

Phil, it is very obvious to everyone that you adore your Toshiba and when anyone has anything negative to report about another Toshiba (not even your model), you get very excited.

First, if you read my original post when I tested the 57HM167, you will find that I provided a link to the scoring guide. I did use the guide while scoring the 57HM167 and I know what moire is. The stands were blurry and I did see a hint of moire - that's why I gave it a 5. The moire wasn't extremely obvious, but the bluriness was, IMO.

Second, I did try different DNR modes. Just because I didn't post it, don't assume I didn't try the other modes. When I tried HIGH, it looked to me like detail was lost compared to AUTO. I thought AUTO gave the best results. Again, the DNR scoring is very subjective. You see a 25, I see a 15.

Third, the scoring guide that you like to quote says this about the Stadium test, "This test is a follow up test to the film resolution loss test. If you failed the previous test, you will fail this test." By your own admission your 62HM196 failed the film resolution loss test. Is HQV wrong?

Again, my intention is not to trash all Toshibas, I'm only reporting what I found.

I addressed your questions above in the AVS Forum > Blu-ray & HD DVD Areas > Silcon Optics HQV HD DVD $15 thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vantagesc View Post

Phil,
Does this mean that an A2 would be an adequate choice to achieve 1080 lines of resolution for the HM167s, or do we still need a player with correct de-interlacing (only XA2 at the moment).

Since I did not run my HD HQV Benchmark HD DVD on any xxHM167s, ... it would be hard for me to give you a definite answer but my guess would be yes!

If the xxHM167s & HD-A2 passes the HQV FILM RESOLUTION LOSS TEST - STADIUM Test Clip by panning right to left without ...

"Any moiré or flickering in the upper stands" (which is their Procedural criteria - not mine)

... then you'll have no problems enjoying your HD DVD 1080p discs, on your 1080p Toshiba display!!!

Phil


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post #458 of 3135 Old 06-21-2007, 01:34 PM
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can I see some pictures of this set in action??
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post #459 of 3135 Old 06-21-2007, 01:47 PM
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can I see some pictures of this set in action??

Check page 10, a bunch of stills I tried to take with trailers off the PS3.
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post #460 of 3135 Old 06-21-2007, 02:47 PM
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The basement is finished, the carpet guy is coming tomorrow and the DirectTV fellow on Saturday morning.

Anyone have the 65HM167 set up with a DirectTV HD-DVR. What is the proper/best way to do this. I will also be connecting it to the Yamaha 661.
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post #461 of 3135 Old 06-21-2007, 07:45 PM
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I was just doing some checking with the set and I noticed alot of nose in it. When I put the test pattern up for Blacker than Black as soon as I got to the level where you would see the black bar using the brightness, there would be alot of noise in the picture. As sson a I bought it down one notch the noise would disappear. I can do the same thing with the contrast setting. Has anyone else seen this problem? I guess I might need to go through the process of exchanging the set if this isn't seen on other sets.

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post #462 of 3135 Old 06-21-2007, 09:43 PM
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I just got a lamp error 3 days in on my 65hm167 Solid yellow with a flashing red after the 8 auto restarts. I'll be calling Toshiba tomorrow and hopefully new lamps are in stock....

This absolutely porks me over tomorrow since I called over all my friends for movie night. /cry
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post #463 of 3135 Old 06-21-2007, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by caddyroyalty View Post

I just got a lamp error 3 days in on my 65hm167 Solid yellow with a flashing red after the 8 auto restarts. I'll be calling Toshiba tomorrow and hopefully new lamps are in stock....

This absolutely porks me over tomorrow since I called over all my friends for movie night. /cry

This is the reason why I held off my purchase...not just on the Toshiba but on DLP's in general.

My 3 yr old 57" Hitachi is still kicking strong and at first, I was planning to move this to the bedroom and replace it with the 65hm167 but after hearing bulb issues, bad scalers for interlaced signals, etc, I've decided to held off till the end of this year, in the hope that some manufacteror comes out with a 65" LED set.

But everytime I go to my local Sears, CCity, I stop by the 65hm167 and imagine it in my living room, especially right now since we got a $1000 mid-year bonus at work so I really have to stop myself

Waiting is sooooooooo hard . The only thing I let myself do is to read up on this thread everyday and imagine myself as an owner
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post #464 of 3135 Old 06-22-2007, 06:40 AM
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I called Toshiba customer service right at 8am. I talked to a very helpful women who is sending me out a bulb for Monday delivery. I tried getting Saturday delivery but they can't do that for some reason.

My second problem still up in the air... I have these discolored lines on the top of the TV which look like inner supports that maybe didn't get heated enough or something.
http://imthatgood.com/plogger/index....picture&id=820
They gave me a number to call and have a local service guy look at it. I'm certain they won't be able to repair it since its the case of the TV, I don't even care it looks like that I just don't want the thing bowing in because the supports are failing. We'll see what they say.
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post #465 of 3135 Old 06-22-2007, 07:03 AM
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My second problem still up in the air... I have these discolored lines on the top of the TV which look like inner supports that maybe didn't get heated enough or something.


I have exactly the same thing, as did every one I've seen in the stores. I don't think it's a problem, just the design. Please let us know though what the repairman says about it.
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post #466 of 3135 Old 06-22-2007, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caddyroyalty View Post

I called Toshiba customer service right at 8am. I talked to a very helpful women who is sending me out a bulb for Monday delivery. I tried getting Saturday delivery but they can't do that for some reason.

My second problem still up in the air... I have these discolored lines on the top of the TV which look like inner supports that maybe didn't get heated enough or something.
http://imthatgood.com/plogger/index....picture&id=820
They gave me a number to call and have a local service guy look at it. I'm certain they won't be able to repair it since its the case of the TV, I don't even care it looks like that I just don't want the thing bowing in because the supports are failing. We'll see what they say.

I have the same exact marks on my TV too, I had a repair man look at it along with two other things and he said that it was probably due to packing, if you look carefully it even can extend down the back an inch or two. I have to say that it would be nice to get an explaination about it.

I due enjoy the TV, especially for the price, got an extended warranty as a little insurance.

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post #467 of 3135 Old 06-22-2007, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caddyroyalty View Post

I called Toshiba customer service right at 8am. I talked to a very helpful women who is sending me out a bulb for Monday delivery. I tried getting Saturday delivery but they can't do that for some reason.

My second problem still up in the air... I have these discolored lines on the top of the TV which look like inner supports that maybe didn't get heated enough or something.
http://imthatgood.com/plogger/index....picture&id=820
They gave me a number to call and have a local service guy look at it. I'm certain they won't be able to repair it since its the case of the TV, I don't even care it looks like that I just don't want the thing bowing in because the supports are failing. We'll see what they say.

I wouldnt worry about them. I saw those discolored crap on 3 65HM167 I looked at and even Mits 65731 has em. I would worry about black specs in the screen more - and I can't even get it corrected because it does not affect the TV viewing since it's small and it's right near the top of the screen. No worries tho, I will not be recommending Toshiba or the service center here to anyone. Tosh didn't even care about the owner/tech who is a child sex offender who does residental service calls.
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post #468 of 3135 Old 06-22-2007, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caddyroyalty View Post

I called Toshiba customer service right at 8am. I talked to a very helpful women who is sending me out a bulb for Monday delivery. I tried getting Saturday delivery but they can't do that for some reason.

My second problem still up in the air... I have these discolored lines on the top of the TV which look like inner supports that maybe didn't get heated enough or something.
http://imthatgood.com/plogger/index....picture&id=820
They gave me a number to call and have a local service guy look at it. I'm certain they won't be able to repair it since its the case of the TV, I don't even care it looks like that I just don't want the thing bowing in because the supports are failing. We'll see what they say.

I went and look at package tv came in, Still in garage, and it doesn't have anything that looks like it would touch all those points in the back like the pattern that shows on the TV, so it would be nice to understand what these marks are.
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post #469 of 3135 Old 06-22-2007, 08:37 AM
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Guys
I will add my name to the list with the marks on the TV. I did not worry about it either as I have seen this on other TVs in showrooms etc. Maybe I should be worried.

If anyone gets a definitive answer it would be great to hear it.

I really like the set. with some tweaking I think the picture is very good but do plan on having this calbrated.
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post #470 of 3135 Old 06-22-2007, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVS_Marty View Post

I went and look at package tv came in, Still in garage, and it doesn't have anything that looks like it would touch all those points in the back like the pattern that shows on the TV, so it would be nice to understand what these marks are.

Possibly generated by the heat the set generates affecting the plastic case. The darker places are probably where the plastic case is thicker due to internal supports, thus less impact from the internal heat.

Other than appearance, this won't likely affect the operation of the set.

It seems that the current trend for tv manufacturers is to focus on slim and light sets, even if getting there involves questionable stability of the case itself.
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post #471 of 3135 Old 06-22-2007, 08:41 AM
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I have the D* HD DVR hooked up to my 65HM167. I am using a HDMI cable I ordered from BlueJean cable because I needed some extra length. The DVR I received came with an HDMI cable as well. I also hooked up to my outlaw processor using the optical out.

It has been working fine since I hooked it up last weekend. I have not watched it very much this week but ahve been happy with the picture.

The sound of the TV seems a little different but that is probably because I am comparing to the HT system.
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post #472 of 3135 Old 06-22-2007, 09:03 AM
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Guys
I will add my name to the list with the marks on the TV. I did not worry about it either as I have seen this on other TVs in showrooms etc. Maybe I should be worried.

If anyone gets a definitive answer it would be great to hear it.

I really like the set. with some tweaking I think the picture is very good but do plan on having this calbrated.

The women I talked to at Toshiba saw my pic and said she had never seen these types of marks before and no complaints of them either, she at least sounded sincere. I'll be peering over as many 167's at the stores I can find now looking for others with marks. I still have the techs coming on Thursday to look at it anyway. I'm a little concerned if this turns out to be normal on a brand new $2Kish TV.....
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post #473 of 3135 Old 06-22-2007, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by caddyroyalty View Post

The women I talked to at Toshiba saw my pic and said she had never seen these types of marks before and no complaints of them either, she at least sounded sincere. I'll be peering over as many 167's at the stores I can find now looking for others with marks. I still have the techs coming on Thursday to look at it anyway. I'm a little concerned if this turns out to be normal on a brand new $2Kish TV.....

It would be interesting to see where sets were purchased at that have these marks. I got mine at Newegg.
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post #474 of 3135 Old 06-22-2007, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caddyroyalty View Post

I called Toshiba customer service right at 8am. I talked to a very helpful women who is sending me out a bulb for Monday delivery. I tried getting Saturday delivery but they can't do that for some reason.

My second problem still up in the air... I have these discolored lines on the top of the TV which look like inner supports that maybe didn't get heated enough or something.
http://imthatgood.com/plogger/index....picture&id=820
They gave me a number to call and have a local service guy look at it. I'm certain they won't be able to repair it since its the case of the TV, I don't even care it looks like that I just don't want the thing bowing in because the supports are failing. We'll see what they say.

The top of my set looks exactly the same way. I got it from Circuit CIty.
I still need to find out if this extra noise when the brightness is turned passed 53 is normal. I'm going to take a look at the one in Circuit City tonight and if it is different I'm going to get my set exchanged. Once the Contrast or brigtness gets past a certain point you can see alot of noise in the image. It is especially noticeable on a 2.3;1 ratio movie when you look at ethe blak bars above and below. the noise becomes very pronounced. Whne the contrast and brightness are below those levels the noise is basically non existent. The problem is the noise starts just at the point the set starts to pass blacker than black.And get progressively worse for every notch above that level. I don't know if the circuitry is geting over driven or what. But it occurs on all the inputs including when the internal tuner is being used.

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post #475 of 3135 Old 06-22-2007, 09:14 AM
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It would be interesting to see where sets were purchased at that have these marks. I got mine at Newegg.

I got mine at Newegg too.
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post #476 of 3135 Old 06-22-2007, 09:14 AM
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It would be interesting to see where sets were purchased at that have these marks. I got mine at Newegg.

Could you provide number you called and first name of lady you talked to, if she knew more had these they might do something more or compensate us because it is probably not something they like having on a product.

I had a party right after buying the TV and I was waiting for my good friend to comment on the marks on the back of the set, he didn't but I thought about it.

These marks are a negative (how much is hard to say, obviously its not a show stopper, but ....., maybe Toshiba would like to do something about it.

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post #477 of 3135 Old 06-22-2007, 09:14 AM
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Got a question for you guys. WHen you are looking at the screen (while the TV is off) at an angle, side of your face is about 6 inches away from the screen. Do you see some kinda of wave or some "valley" in the screen? Not quite sure how to explain it but it's not PERFECTLY flat. It's probably nothing.
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post #478 of 3135 Old 06-22-2007, 09:16 AM
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My Samsung set was the same way. The Toshiba I have is pretty flat. But when the TV is on with my Samsung you don't notice it so I never worried about it.

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post #479 of 3135 Old 06-22-2007, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVS_Marty View Post

Could you provide number you called and first name of lady you talked to, if she knew more had these they might do something more or compensate us because it is probably not something they like having on a product.

I had a party right after buying the TV and I was waiting for my good friend to comment on the marks on the back of the set, he didn't but I thought about it.

These marks are a negative (how much is hard to say, obviously its not a show stopper, but ....., maybe Toshiba would like to do something about it.

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I called the number for bulb service in my manual. 800-631-3811 (1 for english, then 3 for tvs). I didn't even get her name
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post #480 of 3135 Old 06-22-2007, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broketoo View Post

Got a question for you guys. WHen you are looking at the screen (while the TV is off) at an angle, side of your face is about 6 inches away from the screen. Do you see some kinda of wave or some "valley" in the screen? Not quite sure how to explain it but it's not PERFECTLY flat. It's probably nothing.

yes I see it, I think its intentional, basically its the optical property of the screen and thats why it is bright when viewing straight on and not when you are at an angle of more than approx 15 degrees. I've worked with some very high quality optics before and some devices always had weird visible characteristics when looking at it from a sharp angle.
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Reply Rear Projection Units

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