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post #91 of 259 Old 08-17-2007, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dude2006 View Post

I'm very interested in this set but does anyone know if it can do 1080p @ 24fps?

Yes it does
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post #92 of 259 Old 08-17-2007, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by jnelson2000 View Post

Yes it does

Cool, thanks. I was also glad to see your post about it having a next-generation TI chip

I sent you a PM regarding your TV stand, I was wondering where you bought it please...I don't like the "official" stand because it would make me place my center channel not directly underneath the middle of the tv, since there is a partition down the middle.
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post #93 of 259 Old 08-17-2007, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by jnelson2000 View Post

Yes it does

no it doesn't...in fact on the sammy 1200 the 24fps option is greyed out. perhaps in a future tv firmware upgrade it may be enabled. but not now

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post #94 of 259 Old 08-17-2007, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by boomer8800 View Post

no it doesn't...in fact on the sammy 1200 the 24fps option is greyed out. perhaps in a future tv firmware upgrade it may be enabled. but not now


I don't know who is right, but from what I read here the 120hz rate that this Sammy can do will handle the 24 fps issue anyway

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-ente...ter-231872.php
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post #95 of 259 Old 08-17-2007, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by boomer8800 View Post

no it doesn't...in fact on the sammy 1200 the 24fps option is greyed out. perhaps in a future tv firmware upgrade it may be enabled. but not now

I can verify via a S300 and 94HD BD that it WILL and DOES accept and play 24fps via HDMI.
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post #96 of 259 Old 08-18-2007, 11:21 PM
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I recently picked up an HLT7288. I set it up next to my HLS7188. The 72 had a soft out of focus looking picture. Also, if I press the still button on the remote to capture a frame on both tv's, the 71 is rock solid and the 72 is soft with jaggies. Also, the 72's color is very week. The 71 is set around Eliab's recommended settings. Looks great. Set the 72 to those settings and it looks horrible. To get decent color and brightness I have to turn on DNIe and boost contrast and color. The reds are also more of a rust color. I sent it in to Magnolia. Their techs sent it back a couple weeks later and said it was fine. Now the tv keeps locking up when in the menu. Screen turns black for several seconds, then green screen with horizontal line down the middle then tv reboots itself. Magnolia won't replace for new or store demo since it was an open box item even though I bought their warranty. Manufacture date May 2007. Very disappointed. Contacted Samsung. We'll see what happens. Looks like I'll be taking it back. That's too bad. I was really excited about getting this set. My 71 still looks awesome though. Anyone else had these issues?
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post #97 of 259 Old 08-19-2007, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnelson2000 View Post

I can verify via a S300 and 94HD BD that it WILL and DOES accept and play 24fps via HDMI.

so when you're playing a move and you hit the info button on the tv its says 1980 x 1020 @24hz not 60hz

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post #98 of 259 Old 08-19-2007, 10:53 AM
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oh, here's my setup..forgot to post it a while back..


LL

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post #99 of 259 Old 08-19-2007, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by boomer8800 View Post

so when you're playing a move and you hit the info button on the tv its says 1980 x 1020 @24hz not 60hz

Correct. See attached
LL
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post #100 of 259 Old 08-19-2007, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dude2006 View Post

I don't know who is right, but from what I read here the 120hz rate that this Sammy can do will handle the 24 fps issue anyway

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-ente...ter-231872.php

I didn't think this Sammy could do 120hz. Everything I've seen or done on it is either 60Hz or 24Hz. I've never seen 120 and can't find any option for it. Maybe Jeff can shed light on the issue.
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post #101 of 259 Old 08-19-2007, 02:17 PM
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Speaking of 1080p @ 60Hz versus 1080p @ 24 hz, a couple questions for those out there who know about these things:

(1) Aren't most Blu-ray and HD-DVD discs in 1080p 24, because that's the way the movies were filmed? I can't find anyplace on the Blu-ray disc packaging that actually says whether it's 1080p 24 or 1080p something else. They only say "1080p" and usually give some kind of codec number like VC-1 or MPEG-2 or something.

(2) On the 7288W, can any of you actually tell a difference between 1080p 24 and 1080p 60? I have a copy of the Blu-ray disc of "Memento" and tried playing that in both 24 Hz and 60 Hz and I can't see any difference. Is there something specific I should be looking for?
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post #102 of 259 Old 08-19-2007, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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The 120Hz is a display rate, not a refresh rate. The 120Hz is for the 3D gaming technology that allows 2 discrete 60Hz feeds; one for each eye.
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post #103 of 259 Old 08-19-2007, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ankh88 View Post

I didn't think this Sammy could do 120hz. Everything I've seen or done on it is either 60Hz or 24Hz. I've never seen 120 and can't find any option for it.

The "Info" button on the remote will show you input. There is no way to see a confirmation of the display's refresh rate.

Also, there are no 120Hz input sources.

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post #104 of 259 Old 08-19-2007, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Ankh88 View Post

Speaking of 1080p @ 60Hz versus 1080p @ 24 hz, a couple questions for those out there who know about these things:

(1) Aren't most Blu-ray and HD-DVD discs in 1080p 24, because that's the way the movies were filmed?

Movies are stored in 1080p@24fps.

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I can't find anyplace on the Blu-ray disc packaging that actually says whether it's 1080p 24 or 1080p something else. They only say "1080p" ...

See above.

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(2) On the 7288W, can any of you actually tell a difference between 1080p 24 and 1080p 60? I have a copy of the Blu-ray disc of "Memento" and tried playing that in both 24 Hz and 60 Hz and I can't see any difference. Is there something specific I should be looking for?

What you need to look for is side to side pans. If your set is converting 24Hz to 30Hz or 60Hz first, before going to 120Hz, then you will see "judder" in long pans. If your set is simply displaying each frame five times then there is no 3:2 pull down so you shouldn't see a "judder".

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post #105 of 259 Old 08-19-2007, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jnelson2000 View Post

The 120Hz is a display rate, not a refresh rate. The 120Hz is for the 3D gaming technology that allows 2 discrete 60Hz feeds; one for each eye.

That's a new one for me.

Where did you get your information?

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post #106 of 259 Old 08-19-2007, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

The "Info" button on the remote will show you input. There is no way to see a confirmation of the display's refresh rate.

Also, there are not 120Hz input sources.


Ok, so when JNelson posted the picture of the TV saying 1920x1080 @ 24 Hz, you're saying all that means is that the input is 24 Hz? And the TV could still be using 60, 72, 48, 120, or anything? How can you know what it's using if there's no way to see a confirmation of the refresh rate? I thought the info button was showing you what the TV was actually displaying.

I'm thoroughly confused now. Display rate, refresh rate, fps...

My PS3 has a setting to have 1080p 24Hz on or off. If I turn it on, then the Sammy's info button shows 1080p @ 24 Hz. If I turn it off, then the info button shows 1080p @ 60 Hz. This is because the setting is controlling what the PS3 is outputting to the receiver and then to the TV, yes? But isn't the TV also telling me what it's displaying? If it couldn't display 1080p @ 24 Hz, wouldn't I get no picture at all? Since it shows me a picture, I'd like to assume that what the info button says is, in fact, what I am viewing.

Also, I am not sure what "judder" is.
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post #107 of 259 Old 08-19-2007, 05:31 PM
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Ugh I can't make up my mind between this and some other models I'm looking at. One thing I'm really interested in is Deep Color, I know some people say this TV has it but is there any documentation on it? I can't find it anywhere. I would think if it did support it, Samsung would mention it in its website. and let's not forget that Deep Color is "optional" under the HDMI 1.3standard, so just because this TV accepts 1.3 doesn't mean it does Deep Color

CORRECTION: Oops, I just re-read Samsung's website and found this: "SAMSUNG’s HDMI 1.3 technology supports the deep color spectrum found in advanced digital peripherals." I had missed it before. I'm relieved now!
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post #108 of 259 Old 08-19-2007, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ankh88 View Post

Ok, so when JNelson posted the picture of the TV saying 1920x1080 @ 24 Hz, you're saying all that means is that the input is 24 Hz?

That's right.

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And the TV could still be using 60, 72, 48, 120, or anything?

No. A microchip display like this one can display at only one refresh rate -- in this case 120Hz.

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How can you know what it's using if there's no way to see a confirmation of the refresh rate?

See above.

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I thought the info button was showing you what the TV was actually displaying.

Never has -- never will.

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My PS3 has a setting to have 1080p 24Hz on or off. If I turn it on, then the Sammy's info button shows 1080p @ 24 Hz.

Right -- that's the input refresh rate or frames per second (fps).

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If I turn it off, then the info button shows 1080p @ 60 Hz. This is because the setting is controlling what the PS3 is outputting to the receiver and then to the TV, yes?

Right. Then the TV dispays each frame two times to reach 120 fps.

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But isn't the TV also telling me what it's displaying?

No because that never changes.

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If it couldn't display 1080p @ 24 Hz, wouldn't I get no picture at all?

Your TV converts all inputs that it will accept to it's own "native" frame rate (fps) or refresh rate. That's always 1080p@120Hz or 1080p@120fps -- two ways to say the same thing.

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Since it shows me a picture, I'd like to assume that what the info button says is, in fact, what I am viewing.

If that works for you I don't mind.

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Also, I am not sure what "judder" is.

During a pan the image jerks a bit because of the problems created by converting 24fps (move standard) into 30fps (current TV standard). If you don't do that conversion then there is no judder. I don't know how your TV handles 24 fps, but I have to go to dinner now.

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post #109 of 259 Old 08-19-2007, 05:46 PM
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Thanks for the detailed post, however could you explain the interaction between 3:2 pulldown (mentioned in the brochure) and the 120 refresh rate? This is the part that really confuses me
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post #110 of 259 Old 08-19-2007, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

That's a new one for me.

Where did you get your information?

I have my sources :-)
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post #111 of 259 Old 08-19-2007, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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taken from the service manual:

Frequency of Operation 60Hz

The real issue is response time, not refresh rate.

While a 120Hz refresh rate implies a fast response time, if a display has only a 60Hz refresh rate, that doesn't imply it has a slower response time.

The 120Hz refresh rate can also be problematic as many of these sets interpolate new frames between the real frames (the frame rate of video is 60Hz, not 120Hz). While this can produce smoother-looking motion, it can also make movies look "funny".
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post #112 of 259 Old 08-19-2007, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer8800 View Post

So I had David Abrams out to calabrate the Sammy and let me tell you boys it's like night and day...The colors are so..so..real!!

The blu-ray and HD-dvd look awesome!! Even the Tivo S3 looks great.

Props to Dave..

Hello boomer8800,

Thank you for the kind words, I am thrilled to hear that you are enjoying your newly calibrated display!

Good Pictures!

Dave


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post #113 of 259 Old 08-20-2007, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by dude2006 View Post

Thanks for the detailed post, however could you explain the interaction between 3:2 pulldown (mentioned in the brochure) and the 120 refresh rate? This is the part that really confuses me

First of all I haven't read any solid information about how Samsung handles getting 1080p@24fps input to it's 120Hz display rate. The possible benefits claimed for 120Hz or 120fps would be reduced blur from fast motion and removal of judder caused by 3:2 pull down.

Similar questions have come up regarding Sony's 2007 120Hz SXRD sets. The Sony's A3000 sets are just now showing up in stores. The XRB5 sets will be available in late October. This long discussion based on the new Sony models makes sense to me.

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Originally Posted by kelpie View Post

Time to raise some doubts.....

Pardon my poor description, but I'll try to explain. "Cinemotion" and "24p True Cinema" are kinda related, but they're really very different animals. Movies and many TV shows are filmed at 24 frames per second (fps or Hz). Over-the-air (OTA) TV is broadcast at 60Hz and most TV's to date have displayed their images at 60Hz. In order to broadcast 24fps content for view on 60Hz TV's, the framerate has to be changed to 60 Hz via a process called telecine or 3:2 pulldown (because 24 won't multiply directly into 60). Blu-ray movies (for example) are encoded on the disc at 24fps, but the players also have had to process the signal to 60Hz for view on most displays. The Holy Grail for many videophiles has been the ability to take that raw original 24fps source and display it on the screen without the telecine processing/conversion to reduce artifacts like telecine judder.

24p True Cinema is Sony's name for their process whereby their 120Hz displays (like the A 3000) take an original 24 fps source (like on a Blu-ray disc from a player with the ability to output that raw 24p signal) and display it on the screen without further processing with 3:2 pulldown (24 multiplies directly into 120)-that "Holy Grail" of many videophiles that I mentioned. Some recent 120Hz displays from other manufacturers apparently saved cost in their processors by taking 24fps input, converting it to 30Hz with telecine, and then multiplying it by 4 to 120Hz- thus reintroducing artifacts caused by the telecine process. Sony's 24p True Cinema supposedly "does it right" and eliminates the telecine process on 24fps sources. (And maybe the new displays will even do a better job of recovering the original 24fps content from telecined broadcast sources like movies and many TV shows from OTA broadcasters because of its 24p True Cinema.)

Cinemotion is Sony's name for their reverse 3:2 pulldown (reverse telecine) processing necessary to display a telecined source (e.g. OTA broadcast) on the screen (see pg. 37 of the A3000 manual). "Cinemotion" is what the display uses to process telecined 24fps content, "24p True Cinema" is what the display uses to display 24fps content without subjecting it to telecine.

Sony provides serveral different settings for the Cinemotion on its A3000's so you can optimize the picture on sources that have undergone 3:2 pulldown processing. There is no need to change settings for the 24p True Cinema feature- the lack of telecine processing just "happens" when you feed the display a 24fps source.

HTH

(Official Sony KDS-XXA3000 OWNERS THREAD!)

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Originally Posted by ryarber View Post

You guys are actually doing the math backward. It is mostly a matter of semantics, but here is how it actually works....

The 120Hz frequency is actually 5 times faster than the 24Hz frequency. You're not displaying a 24Hz frame 5 times to reach 120Hz, you're actually displaying a 120Hz frame 5 times to reach a 24Hz refresh. When you think about it backward, you can end up confusing yourself.

A 60Hz refresh must display one frame 3 times and the next frame 2 times in the same time it takes to display 2 frames of 24Hz. That is where the term 3:2 cadence comes from. If you have 24Hz frames that are called A, B, C, and D, the native 24Hz would be displayed like this A B C D. The 60Hz display (being 2.5 times faster) will display A A A B B C C C D D (3:2 cadence). With the 60Hz refresh, frames A and C would get equal display time whereas B and D would only get 2/3 of the time displayed. This causes judder. A 120Hz frame rate would look like this... A A A A A B B B B B C C C C C D D D D D. This is where the term 5:5 cadence comes from. In the time it takes to display 2 of the 24Hz frames, each of those frames would have been displayed 5 times at 120Hz. Each frame would get equal time, thus smoother motion.

Now, if you have black frame insertion, you might have something like this with 120Hz.... A A A _ _ B B B _ _ C C C _ _ D D D _ _. The blanks would represent a black screen and are placed there to create a more natural motion, like old film projectors. Motion enhancing might look like this A A A AB AB B B B BC BC C C C CD CD D D D DE DE... and so on where the double letters would represent an artificially generated frame. You can see where you might get some blur with the motion enhancing mode.

I know that most of you know this stuff, just trying the help new people understand it better. When we speak of converting a 24Hz signal to 120Hz, we know what we are talking about, we actually say it backward because it is easier to use those terms. What is actually done is what is described above, ie. convert a 120Hz refresh to make it look like a 24Hz refresh. Keep that in mind when you read these threads.

(Official Sony KDS-XXA3000 OWNERS THREAD!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryarber View Post

A few other things. A previous poster asked about inverse telecine and what the TV would do when it got back to 24p....

What happens when a video processor (VP) does inverse telecine is that it must recognize a 3:2 cadence (A A A B B C C C D D at 60Hz) and convert it back to its natural 1:1 cadence (A B C D at 24Hz).

This set is a 120Hz set and it can only function at 120Hz. If it is able to recognize the 3:2 cadence and convert back to 24Hz, the set would display a 5:5 cadence. If it does not recognize the telecine (3:2 cadence), it would just display the 60Hz signal twice and you'd have (A A A A A A B B B B C C C C C C D D D D) a 6:4 cadence. This would look much like the 3:2 cadence I guess.

This set doesn't have a 24Hz refresh, but it is compatible with a 24Hz refresh (24p). Sets that just double the 60Hz signal are not compatible with 24Hz refresh in the way the Sony is and still have judder due to 6:4 cadence. It remains to be seen if the Sonys will perform the inverse telecine.

Broadcast TV is sent out at 60Hz. For a movie with a 24Hz refresh, that means they have to perform telecine (3:2) on the signal to be compatible with the 60Hz signal before it is sent out. The TV (if it is 120Hz) can either double the 60Hz frame (giving a 6:4 cadence), or perform inverse telecine and give you a 5:5 cadence. You can see why the latter is preferred. Some VP's will perform the inverse telecine (mostly high end units costing thousands, but perhaps the Onkyo 905 or the new Denons AVR's can).

(Official Sony KDS-XXA3000 OWNERS THREAD!)

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post #114 of 259 Old 08-20-2007, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

During a pan the image jerks a bit because of the problems created by converting 24fps (move standard) into 30fps (current TV standard). If you don't do that conversion then there is no judder. I don't know how your TV handles 24 fps, but I have to go to dinner now.

Well, see, I thought my TV was 60Hz, not 120. Even my receiver, when I ask it for info on the monitor, tells me the supported resolutions are all 60Hz. But If it's 120, then doesn't that mean there is no 3:2 pulldown, or judder, because 120 is a multiple of 24? There would be no need to do some frames two times and some three in order to make 24 fps fit into 60.

This would explain why I haven't seen any juddering, and why I don't notice any difference at all between the picture when I have the PS3 set to do 24Hz versus 60Hz.

This, too, is what made me think the TV was 60Hz. The PS3's 24Hz output setting is on, off, or auto. On makes it ouput 24Hz. Auto makes it choose the output mode that matches the display. And when I do it, it chooses 60Hz.

When I am playing blu-ray discs, should I set the PS3 to 24 or 60?
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post #115 of 259 Old 08-20-2007, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ankh88 View Post

But If it's 120, then doesn't that mean there is no 3:2 pulldown, or judder, because 120 is a multiple of 24?

That's one possibility. I don't know for sure what Samsung does with the 24Hz signal once it receives it.

Quote:


This would explain why I haven't seen any juddering, and why I don't notice any difference at all between the picture when I have the PS3 set to do 24Hz versus 60Hz.

When you set the PS3 to 60Hz then the PS3 must use 3:2 pull down to convert the 24Hz movie data to 60Hz for output to your TV.

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This, too, is what made me think the TV was 60Hz. The PS3's 24Hz output setting is on, off, or auto. On makes it ouput 24Hz. Auto makes it choose the output mode that matches the display. And when I do it, it chooses 60Hz.

I'm not about to try to explain what the PS3 output choices mean.

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When I am playing blu-ray discs, should I set the PS3 to 24 or 60?

If I had one I would set it to 24Hz.

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post #116 of 259 Old 08-20-2007, 05:15 AM
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That's one possibility. I don't know for sure what Samsung does with the 24Hz signal once it receives it.

When you set the PS3 to 60Hz then the PS3 must use 3:2 pull down to convert the 24Hz movie data to 60Hz for output to your TV.

I'm not about to try to explain what the PS3 output choices mean.

If I had one I would set it to 24Hz.

htwaits, first off thanks a lot for taking the time to do these detailed posts, they were very informative. As you point out, it seems that no one is *really* sure about just how exactly the 7288 processes 1080 p @ 24 fps. After reading your posts and a thread on another forum entirely on this issue, though (about displays that can process 24 fps at a "multiple" of 24 fps, like 72, 120, etc., thus avoiding the 3:2 used by 60 hz and as a result supposedly reducing judder), I am of the thought that this set does it at 60 hz, that is, with 3:2 pulldown. First off, there is jnelson's reference to the service manual saying that it operates at a 60hz rate. My understanding is that if that's the case, then the tv is doing 24 fps with the "standard" method of 3:2, as most TVs run at 60 hz and so need to do 3:2. Then, there is the Samsung brochure itself, which explicitly mentions "Cinema Smooth 3:2 pulldown" in reference to 24 fps. Finally, although the brochure says the TV does 120hz, after reading more about Samsung's "3D Ready" technology, I'm pretty sure that this 120hz is for that limited purpose, i.e., the
3D technology. Whatever these mystery movie/games that this TV says it's ready for, it seems that the technology requires 120hz for that. However, I don't believe this means that the TV uses 120hz for ALL purposes. This wikipedia article explains this possibility:

"Another possible advantage of 120hz that is not employed on all 120hz sets is that it is possible to do what is referred to as 5:5 pulldown at 120hz rather than 3:2_pulldown at 60hz [1]. The advantage with 5:5 pulldown is that motion follows a linear path versus going faster 40% of the time and slower 60% of the time. 3:2 pulldown shows odd frames for 49.98 milliseconds and even frames for 33.33 milliseconds. 5:5 pulldown shows all frames for 41.65 milliseconds. and is therefore able to reproduce the original timing of the presentation of the image data created on the 24 frame-per-second hollywood film medium." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDTV_Blur

Finally, I don't think this TV does 24 fps using 120hz because even with new TVs, this is still a rare (and expensive) technology and the TVs that do have this make a big deal of it in the advertising materials. For instance, the two TVs that I'm aware that certainly use 120hz for 24 fps, the upcoming Mitsubishi 833 "Diamond" series and the Sony XBR5s, both trumpet this feature on the website, while there is nothing about it on Samsung's.

Having said ALL THAT, I am still going with the 7288. I think this judder issue is a bit overblown, and most people don't realize that even if a TV introduces judder when processing 24 fps, the judder problems tend to occur in a relatively small number of scenes, usually those involving "panning" across the screen or with very fast action. If this set indeed uses 3:2 pulldown for 24 fps, theoretically more judder would be seen than with TVs that don't need to do 3:2, but I refuse to believe that the technology Samsung puts in its "latest and greatest" would be crappy. In addition, I would rather go with Samsung than Mitsubishi because the latter's products are sometimes problematic in terms of quality, and the Sony 70 inch XBR5 is very expensive (6000), very heavy (240 pounds), and of course, 2 inches smaller Also, it doesn't have this 3D-ready feature that the Samsung has (who knows what it actually does ). So anyway, while I think this TV does use 3:2 pulldown, I don't think it's that big a deal and I'm going to stick with it.

Jnelson, just for closure of the issue, it would be great if you could ask your engineer contact at Samsung about this. I think I know what the answer will be.
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post #117 of 259 Old 08-20-2007, 09:37 AM
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So anyway, while I think this TV does use 3:2 pulldown, I don't think it's that big a deal and I'm going to stick with it.

I might not go through this confusing information in exactly the same way you have, but I agree with your conclusion about the significance, or lack of it, for this issue. Smooth pans should be nice, but I don't find myself noticing the judder that I know must be there. It must be visual denial.

The Pioneer Elites have been doing 72Hz and 3:3 pull down for a while now. Sony seems to obscure the issue (see above) where their A3000 series is concerned. My understanding of the whole processing issue is hanging by a very thin thread.

What ever Samsung is promoting with their ThreeD stuff doesn't seem to interest the other manufacturers.

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post #118 of 259 Old 08-20-2007, 10:38 AM
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whatever this tv does I'm happy I picked this model over the others and after the calibration even more happier.

I guess that's all that really matters

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post #119 of 259 Old 08-20-2007, 10:59 AM
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I guess that's all that really matters


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post #120 of 259 Old 08-20-2007, 11:37 AM
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I think most of us are confused about the true capabilities of this TV because Samsung's marketing needs work. For instance, I've found only one reference to the TV supporting HDMI 1.3's Deep Color, and that was buried on the "features" page of the website - it's not mentioned in the brochure nor in the manual. Similarly, with regard to the xvyCC color spacing supported by HDMI 1.3, I was able to confirm the TV has it only by searching for that term in the manual - there was no reference to it anywhere on Samsung's website or on the brochure. I don't understand why Samsung would not advertise these features, like other manufacturers.
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