RGB vs Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr help please - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 39 Old 06-28-2007, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
joevfx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
so i dont fully understand the difference between these and which one gives a better picture. i thought all Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr signals were converted to RGB before put onto DVD or blu ray.

like do all HDTVs take Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr? is it just for component cables or does that signal go through HDMI also?

if your TV is both RGB and Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr which should be used if you can outut both from your DVD or blu ray player?

why does the PS3 have a Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super-White option? is this better to use the RGB full if the TV will take a Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Signal?

are any sources Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr?
joevfx is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 39 Old 06-28-2007, 07:22 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
walford's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 16,789
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
RGB component is a subset of VGA and is normally only used for PC monitors. YPrPb component component is a NTSC standard for TV. the use the same cables normally haveing Red Green and Blue RCA connectors.. The two prototocols are not interchangble and have nothing to doe with DVI, HDMI, S-video, or composite video protocols. The component or digital tranmission protocols have anything to do with encoded content storage resolutions used in DVDs or TV tranmissions.
Today almost all Set Top boxes and PC graphics cards YPrPb component, DVI/HDMI and S-video tranmission protocol.
You are confusing the content (papers, eletronics, liquids) with the shipment method (air, truck, or ship)
walford is offline  
post #3 of 39 Old 06-29-2007, 08:13 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ron Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Florida and West Virginia, USA
Posts: 5,886
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Liked: 192
There seems to be some confusion between analog component video (which uses YPrPb), analog RGB (as used with a PC's VGA interface), and the encoded digital video formats used with HDMI. HDMI can provide the video information, in digital, in two alternative forms. In one case it is digitally encoded YPrPb and in the other case it is digitally encoded RGB. Currently 8-bits are used to encode each of the 3 'component" colors (be they either Y, Pr and Pb -OR- red, blue and green). The digital video information for HD video sources, such as Blu-ray, HD-DVD, DVD, Directv, etc., is encoded as YPrPb therefore outputting the video via HDMI in YPrPb format involves the least processing by the source device. Most HDTVs ultimately must process the incoming digital video information into a RGB form because the display device is using red, blue and green (subpixels) to created the color image (be it plasma, LCD, CRT, DLP or LCOS technology). In general it is probably best to use the YPrPb via HDMI format out of the source device and then let the HDTV do whatever processing it needs to do. Some HDTVs (e.g., front projector which are more oriented toword the PC world) may only accept the digital information in RGB format via HDMI (or DVI) and in this case RGB format is the only choice. Also in some cases the processing to do the conversion from YPrPb to RGB may be higher quality within source device than the video processing within the HDTV and in those cases you may get better results using RGB out of the source device.
As for the best setting for the HDMI output on a PS3, I would start of with YPrPb with superwhite on. As for "superwhite" the official spec. for video via HDMI only uses the digital range of 16 to 235 for each of the component video elements (i.e., using 8-bits to encode each of the 3 component colors). In normal mode the PS3 will not pass values above 235 to the display device. Turning superwhite on allows all values up to 255 to be output. This is only significant for discs that actually used values above 235 to encode the video.

As for "RGB Full" via HDMI option on the PS3, at this point it is a poor choice except for displays specifically intended as computer displays. This mode takes the 16-to-235 values (intended for digital video) and maps them to and expanded range of 0-to-255 values for each R, G and B (normally used with computer displays). For HDTVs that do take an HDMI-RGB input and are designed for digital video, not just PC use, the more optium setting for the HDMI would be RGB limited (simply outputs the values 16-to-235 with no mapping involved).

Ron Jones
Quote:
Originally Posted by joevfx View Post

so i dont fully understand the difference between these and which one gives a better picture. i thought all Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr signals were converted to RGB before put onto DVD or blu ray.

like do all HDTVs take Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr? is it just for component cables or does that signal go through HDMI also?

if your TV is both RGB and Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr which should be used if you can outut both from your DVD or blu ray player?

why does the PS3 have a Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super-White option? is this better to use the RGB full if the TV will take a Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Signal?

are any sources Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr?


Ron Jones
Blog + Reviews + Articles: projectorreviews.com
Ron Jones is offline  
post #4 of 39 Old 06-29-2007, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
joevfx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

There seems to be some confusion between analog component video (which uses YPrPb), analog RGB (as used with a PC's VGA interface), and the encoded digital video formats used with HDMI. HDMI can provide the video information, in digital, in two alternative forms. In one case it is digitally encoded YPrPb and in the other case it is digitally encoded RGB. Currently 8-bits are used to encode each of the 3 'component" colors (be they either Y, Pr and Pb -OR- red, blue and green). The digital video information for HD video sources, such as Blu-ray, HD-DVD, DVD, Directv, etc., is encoded as YPrPb therefore outputting the video via HDMI in YPrPb format involves the least processing by the source device. Most HDTVs ultimately must process the incoming digital video information into a RGB form because the display device is using red, blue and green (subpixels) to created the color image (be it plasma, LCD, CRT, DLP or LCOS technology). In general it is probably best to use the YPrPb via HDMI format out of the source device and then let the HDTV do whatever processing it needs to do. Some HDTVs (e.g., front projector which are more oriented toword the PC world) may only accept the digital information in RGB format via HDMI (or DVI) and in this case RGB format is the only choice. Also in some cases the processing to do the conversion from YPrPb to RGB may be higher quality within source device than the video processing within the HDTV and in those cases you may get better results using RGB out of the source device.
As for the best setting for the HDMI output on a PS3, I would start of with YPrPb with superwhite on. As for "superwhite" the official spec. for video via HDMI only uses the digital range of 16 to 235 for each of the component video elements (i.e., using 8-bits to encode each of the 3 component colors). In normal mode the PS3 will not pass values above 235 to the display device. Turning superwhite on allows all values up to 255 to be output. This is only significant for discs that actually used values above 235 to encode the video.

As for "RGB Full" via HDMI option on the PS3, at this point it is a poor choice except for displays specifically intended as computer displays. This mode takes the 16-to-235 values (intended for digital video) and maps them to and expanded range of 0-to-255 values for each R, G and B (normally used with computer displays). For HDTVs that do take an HDMI-RGB input and are designed for digital video, not just PC use, the more optium setting for the HDMI would be RGB limited (simply outputs the values 16-to-235 with no mapping involved).

Ron Jones

thanks for the info i think i kinda understand now. So your saying if the TV can take YPrPb input then I shoud output YPrPb from my PS3 with superwhite on. And it the TV can only take an RGB input then out put RGB limited? then why did they add the RGB full? is then when outputting into a PC monitor?
joevfx is offline  
post #5 of 39 Old 06-29-2007, 10:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Jay_Davis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,872
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Yes, RGB full seems to be only for outputting to a PC monitor.
Jay_Davis is offline  
post #6 of 39 Old 06-29-2007, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
joevfx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

Yes, RGB full seems to be only for outputting to a PC monitor.


but they say it outputs RGB full only through HDMI so that means it was have to be a PC that has an HDMI, im confused.
joevfx is offline  
post #7 of 39 Old 06-29-2007, 01:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ron Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Florida and West Virginia, USA
Posts: 5,886
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Liked: 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by joevfx View Post

but they say it outputs RGB full only through HDMI so that means it was have to be a PC that has an HDMI, im confused.

Many displays, including both LCD flat panel monitors and LCD and DLP front projectors do have a DVI input and a source with an HDMI output can easily be connected using a simple DVI-to-HDMI cable. Also some front projectors with HDMI inputs do accept RGB via HDMI in computer format and this input can be used to connect to a PC that has a DVI ouput, again via a DVI to HDMI cable.

Ron Jones

Ron Jones
Blog + Reviews + Articles: projectorreviews.com
Ron Jones is offline  
post #8 of 39 Old 06-29-2007, 02:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Hipnotiq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,160
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I am a little confused with the OP's original intention.
Is he using HDMI or an analog connection?

Regarding HDMI signals, I believe the answer lies within your specific television and you should change the title of this thread to get specific information regarding that TV, or post this in the official thread for that model TV.

Some TVs will convert the HDMI signal to analog RGB and then send it to the video processor. Other TVs will have straight digital transmission to the processor.

There is a significant difference between the 2.
Hipnotiq is offline  
post #9 of 39 Old 06-29-2007, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
joevfx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hipnotiq View Post

I am a little confused with the OP's original intention.
Is he using HDMI or an analog connection?

Regarding HDMI signals, I believe the answer lies within your specific television and you should change the title of this thread to get specific information regarding that TV, or post this in the official thread for that model TV.

Some TVs will convert the HDMI signal to analog RGB and then send it to the video processor. Other TVs will have straight digital transmission to the processor.

There is a significant difference between the 2.

well teh connection i sHDMI, and its not a specific TV casu eim shoppign for oen now and im wonderign if i shoudl be lookign for a Tv that accepts Ybcbr through HDMI or does it matter?

Casue my PS3 will output Ybcbr through HDMI and im wondering if that is a higher quality signal then RGB, when playign back DVDs and blu ray.
joevfx is offline  
post #10 of 39 Old 06-29-2007, 03:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Hipnotiq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,160
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by joevfx View Post

well teh connection i sHDMI, and its not a specific TV casu eim shoppign for oen now and im wonderign if i shoudl be lookign for a Tv that accepts Ybcbr through HDMI or does it matter?

Casue my PS3 will output Ybcbr through HDMI and im wondering if that is a higher quality signal then RGB, when playign back DVDs and blu ray.

If that is the case, my opinion is you should use YPbPr when watching movies and RGB when playing games.
Hipnotiq is offline  
post #11 of 39 Old 06-29-2007, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
joevfx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hipnotiq View Post

If that is the case, my opinion is you should use YPbPr when watching movies and RGB when playing games.

in that case then i guess i should set the PS3 to output automatic so its chooses RGb or Ypbpr dependign on the source. and set super white on and rgb full on so it will use teh appropriate one for which ever output it decides to use
joevfx is offline  
post #12 of 39 Old 06-29-2007, 04:15 PM
 
ChrisWiggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 20,730
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

RGB component is a subset of VGA and is normally only used for PC monitors. YPrPb component component is a NTSC standard for TV. the use the same cables normally haveing Red Green and Blue RCA connectors.. The two prototocols are not interchangble and have nothing to doe with DVI, HDMI, S-video, or composite video protocols. The component or digital tranmission protocols have anything to do with encoded content storage resolutions used in DVDs or TV tranmissions.
Today almost all Set Top boxes and PC graphics cards YPrPb component, DVI/HDMI and S-video tranmission protocol.
You are confusing the content (papers, eletronics, liquids) with the shipment method (air, truck, or ship)

This is probably the most thoroughly inaccurate post I've seen in a long time.

The first part is backwards, VGA is the PC subset of RGB signals. RGB keeps full bandwidth R,G,andB components. Component video (YPbPr/YCbCr) uses Luma and chroma components, and is what is encoded(YCbCr) on most all consumer digital video formats: DVD, D-theater, HD-DVD, BRD etc.

These have everything to do with DVI and HDMI which are particular digital transmission protocols that are capable of sending these signals. DVI specs 8-bit RGB transmission. HDMI specs 8-bit RGB in addition to YCbCR component video in 8-bits and higher.
ChrisWiggles is offline  
post #13 of 39 Old 06-29-2007, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
joevfx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

This is probably the most thoroughly inaccurate post I've seen in a long time.

The first part is backwards, VGA is the PC subset of RGB signals. RGB keeps full bandwidth R,G,andB components. Component video (YPbPr/YCbCr) uses Luma and chroma components, and is what is encoded(YCbCr) on most all consumer digital video formats: DVD, D-theater, HD-DVD, BRD etc.

These have everything to do with DVI and HDMI which are particular digital transmission protocols that are capable of sending these signals. DVI specs 8-bit RGB transmission. HDMI specs 8-bit RGB in addition to YCbCR component video in 8-bits and higher.

ok now i think im understanding. So basically on a TV with only composite and component inputs , component is the obviose way to go , cause you will get a bettter looking signal with it then with the single composit input. So basically HDMI i putting both the " composit ( RGB) and component (YcbCr) signals " into on cable and lettign you choose which signal you want to send through it dependign on what your TV can take and what your source can output. so YCBCr would be the one to send through HDMI since it yeilds a better looking image then sending RGB through. is this basically what it means?
joevfx is offline  
post #14 of 39 Old 06-29-2007, 07:10 PM
Member
 
surfengine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Im not an expert at PS3...in fact I have never seen 1.
But...in theory, there should be no difference.
RGB will have a color space associated with it. If the color space is jacked up in some manner (by PS3 or TV), then your TV can look like crap.
Y/Pb/Pr is standard component signal and very common for many source devices.
So, from that perspective, you are safer to choose it.
Really, you will probably notice no to very little differnce at all (depending on your TV).
surfengine is offline  
post #15 of 39 Old 06-29-2007, 11:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dlarsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Beaverton, OR, USA
Posts: 1,908
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

DVI specs 8-bit RGB transmission.

As far as the spec is concerned, not entirely "accurate" either. The DVI spec does allows for greater than 8 bit per component via dual link.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DVI spec View Post

color depths requiring greater than 24-bit per pixel are allowed to be supported via the second link.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

HDMI specs 8-bit RGB in addition to YCbCR component video in 8-bits and higher.

Again, as far as what the spec says, not entirely accurate. Greater that 8 bit per component in HDMI 1.3 is defined as deep color. If a source or display supports deep color' it MUST support that in RGB 4:4:4. Its >8bit component that's optional. Note also that YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 is not permitted for HDMI 1.3 deep color' regardless of the bit depth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMI 1.3 spec View Post

Color depths greater than 24 bits are defined to be Deep Color modes. All Deep Color modes are optional though if an HDMI Source or Sink supports any Deep Color mode, it shall support 36-bit mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMI 1.3 spec View Post

For each supported Deep Color mode, RGB 4:4:4 shall be supported and optionally YCBCR 4:4:4 may be supported.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMI 1.3 spec View Post

YCBCR 4:2:2 is not permitted for any Deep Color mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

This is probably the most thoroughly inaccurate post I've seen in a long time.

If you're going to bust someone's chops for being thoroughly inaccurate and then go on to correct them by stating what the specs say, you could be a little more accurate yourself IMO.

Dave
dlarsen is offline  
post #16 of 39 Old 06-30-2007, 10:59 AM
 
ChrisWiggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 20,730
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlarsen View Post

As far as the spec is concerned, not entirely "accurate" either. The DVI spec does allows for greater than 8 bit per component via dual link.

Again, as far as what the spec says, not entirely accurate. Greater that 8 bit per component in HDMI 1.3 is defined as deep color. If a source or display supports deep color' it MUST support that in RGB 4:4:4. Its >8bit component that's optional. Note also that YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 is not permitted for HDMI 1.3 deep color' regardless of the bit depth.

If you're going to bust someone's chops for being thoroughly inaccurate and then go on to correct them by stating what the specs say, you could be a little more accurate yourself IMO.

Dave

Thanks for harassing me dave. None of what you stated was relevant here nor was it really correcting anything that I said.

DVI allows for various things other than 8-bit RGB, including YCbCr. What I said was merely that 8-bit RGB was the DVI spec in terms of being required. DVI equipment that does other things is also within DVI spec but is not universally the case. Obviously dual-link is a different topic that is a far cry from being relevant here.

Second, no not all >8bit is deep color in HDMI. HDMI had the ability to do YCbCr in 10 and 12 bit prior to so-called "deep-color" capabilities. So you're wrong about that. But thanks for trolling me anyway.
ChrisWiggles is offline  
post #17 of 39 Old 06-30-2007, 01:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dlarsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Beaverton, OR, USA
Posts: 1,908
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Thanks for harassing me dave.

My pleasure. I know you believe you are above reproach and that all your posts should always go unchallenged as you are never in error. Challenge or disagreement does not equate to 'harassment'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

DVI allows for various things other than 8-bit RGB, including YCbCr.

Since you seem to think that you are intimately familiar with what the specs' say, can you site where in the DVI spec it specifically calls out YCbCr support? I don't see it in my copy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Obviously dual-link is a different topic that is a far cry from being relevant here.

Not relevant? Your comments were all about higher than 24 bit bit depths and your inaccurate or incomplete interpretation of what was spec'd. I quoted from the actual specs. It's the DVI spec' you referenced that makes dual-link relevant.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Second, no not all >8bit is deep color in HDMI.

It is specifically defined by the HDMI 1.3 spec to be just that. The sentence below from the spec says that clearly and concisely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMI 1.3 Spec View Post

Color depths greater than 24 bits are defined to be Deep Color modes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

HDMI had the ability to do YCbCr in 10 and 12 bit prior to so-called "deep-color" capabilities. So you're wrong about that.

Again, as of the HDMI 1.3 spec, if it's higher that 24 bit across HDMI then it's deep-color' by definition. Also again, if a source or display supports deep color (higher than 24 bit) then it MUST support that in RGB. YCbCr is optional and it MUST be 4:4:4. No sub-sampled chroma formats are permitted by the spec to be higher than 24 bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMI 1.3 Spec View Post

For each supported Deep Color mode, RGB 4:4:4 shall be supported and optionally YCBCR 4:4:4 may be supported.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMI 1.3 Spec View Post

YCBCR 4:2:2 is not permitted for any Deep Color mode.

Dave
dlarsen is offline  
post #18 of 39 Old 06-30-2007, 05:58 PM
 
ChrisWiggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 20,730
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlarsen View Post

My pleasure. I know you believe you are above reproach and that all your posts should always go unchallenged as you are never in error. Challenge or disagreement does not equate to 'harassment'.

No, I believe when a user post-searches on my name and then enters into thread after thread that I am participating in to directly contradict my statements wherever possible despite the fact that I'm saying general things that are correct, THAT is harassment.

Quote:
Since you seem to think that you are intimately familiar with what the specs' say, can you site where in the DVI spec it specifically calls out YCbCr support? I don't see it in my copy.

It doesn't. Which is what I said before. Read it again.

Quote:
Not relevant? Your comments were all about higher than 24 bit bit depths and your inaccurate or incomplete interpretation of what was spec'd. I quoted from the actual specs. It's the DVI spec' you referenced that makes dual-link relevant.

dual link is not relevant. Please name me a single consumer device which utilizes dual link.
ChrisWiggles is offline  
post #19 of 39 Old 06-30-2007, 09:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dlarsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Beaverton, OR, USA
Posts: 1,908
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

It doesn't. Which is what I said before. Read it again.

You just said in post # 16 that it did! I'll quote it again this time with some emphasis see your statement including YCbCr. You read it again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

DVI allows for various things other than 8-bit RGB, including YCbCr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

dual link is not relevant.

You made it relevant with the reference to higher than 24 bit bit-depths and DVI. Dual link is required per the DVI spec for higher than 24 bit support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Please name me a single consumer device which utilizes dual link.

Here's three referenced in one paragraph

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.apple.com/displays/digital.html View Post

Dual-Link DVI
The 30-inch Cinema HD Display, with its massive load of pixels, requires a graphics cards with dual-link DVI connectivity. No problem. No matter which graphics card you choose for the new Mac Pro, you'll be able to connect two Apple Cinema Displays, including at least one 30-inch model. And with either the ATI Radeon X1900 XT or the workstation-class NVIDIA Quadro FX4500, you can connect one 30-inch display to each of their dual-link DVI ports.

Dave
dlarsen is offline  
post #20 of 39 Old 06-30-2007, 09:29 PM
 
ChrisWiggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 20,730
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlarsen View Post

You just said in post # 16 that it did! I'll quote it again this time with some emphasis see your statement including YCbCr. You read it again.

DVI specifically defines 8-bit RGB. That is all. Other possibilities exist, such as YCbCr, which is why SOME DVI devices input and inout YCbCr. Many (most?) do not, because it is not expressly defined in DVI spec. That is why I said "DVI specs 8-bit RGB transmission." and "DVI allows for various things other than 8-bit RGB, including YCbCr. What I said was merely that 8-bit RGB was the DVI spec in terms of being required. DVI equipment that does other things is also within DVI spec but is not universally the case."

If you don't understand that, then I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to you.

Quote:


You made it relevant with the reference to higher than 24 bit bit-depths and DVI. Dual link is required per the DVI spec for higher than 24 bit support.

That's funny, since I never made that reference, ever, in any post in this thread. Nice try though.


Quote:


Here's three referenced in one paragraph

Great.


Now piss off and stop harassing me.
ChrisWiggles is offline  
post #21 of 39 Old 06-30-2007, 09:34 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
joevfx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
haha ok guys relax. i didnt mean to start a flame war. i just wanted to know which to use , RGb or ybcbr, if my Tv supports both.
joevfx is offline  
post #22 of 39 Old 06-30-2007, 10:01 PM
Newbie
 
Amuro0079's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi, I have a question. I'm using a Dell 2707FPW LCD monitor with the PS3, and turning on RGB full range greatly improves image quality. I'm wondering if I should turn on super-white as well, or super-white is just for HDTVs, not PC monitors.
Amuro0079 is offline  
post #23 of 39 Old 07-01-2007, 09:50 AM
 
ChrisWiggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 20,730
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by joevfx View Post

haha ok guys relax. i didnt mean to start a flame war. i just wanted to know which to use , RGb or ybcbr, if my Tv supports both.

I apologize for my troll, it's not your fault at all.

You may want to take a peek here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=868865

This is all very general, because there are situations with certain devices where there are advantages for choosing one or the other. But there is no universal suggestion that can be made that one should select RGB, or YCbCr.
ChrisWiggles is offline  
post #24 of 39 Old 07-01-2007, 10:35 AM
Advanced Member
 
itigap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: DC area
Posts: 970
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

I apologize for my troll, it's not your fault at all.

You may want to take a peek here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=868865

This is all very general, because there are situations with certain devices where there are advantages for choosing one or the other. But there is no universal suggestion that can be made that one should select RGB, or YCbCr.

Chris,

First I want to thank you for sharing in this thread. I stumbled today upon this thread and find it very interesting as I am tyring to better understand the anatomy of a video signal path and the processing and signal transformations that take place along the way.

Basic to this is an understanding of the signal itself. I have always been a bit confused between YPbPr and RGB and these seem to be the two major forms when talking HDTV and DVD.

I guess what I want to know is where the color decoder and other processing functions (deinterlacing and scaling and noise reduction) come in along the way as a signal gets transformed from YPbPr (or is it YCbCr?) to being finaly displayed as RGB driving a screen? One reason I ask is if I choose to have a signal transformed external to a display into RGB, then what processing functions, if any, are left for the display to perform.

Also I think there is some confusion in terminology often used on this forum (at least I am still a little confused) regarding the video signals transported via 3 wire "component" cables. Are these signals always analog?, digital?, can be either?, and does the term "component" necessarily refer to just YPbPr or is RGB also a "component" signal?

Finally how does this terminology fit with signals conveyed over HDMI? I suspect if HDMI can carry some of the same signals that are caried via "component" cables, then those signals are also "component" signals just carried via HDMI connections. Is this correct terminology.

I really appreciate you clearing this up for me so I migh finally properly understand the terminology and plan an appropriate signal path.

Again you rock! Thanks for helping us all.

Cheers,

Gary
itigap is offline  
post #25 of 39 Old 07-01-2007, 04:36 PM
 
ChrisWiggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 20,730
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by itigap View Post

Chris,

First I want to thank you for sharing in this thread. I stumbled today upon this thread and find it very interesting as I am tyring to better understand the anatomy of a video signal path and the processing and signal transformations that take place along the way.

Basic to this is an understanding of the signal itself. I have always been a bit confused between YPbPr and RGB and these seem to be the two major forms when talking HDTV and DVD.

I guess what I want to know is where the color decoder and other processing functions (deinterlacing and scaling and noise reduction) come in along the way as a signal gets transformed from YPbPr (or is it YCbCr?) to being finaly displayed as RGB driving a screen? One reason I ask is if I choose to have a signal transformed external to a display into RGB, then what processing functions, if any, are left for the display to perform.

Component video is YCbCr/YPbPr. Technically, YPbPr refers to component video in the analog domain, and YCbCr in the digital domain, but you will find that many devices and articles on the internet come up with wacky labeling conventions and strange reasonings. Regardless, it's just a label.

What a display does with what it's fed will really depend on the display. Some RPTVs for instance will take an RGB input, and then convert it back to component to do all kinds of "color processing" features before going back to RGB (in other words screwing everything up). Some don't.

Quote:


Also I think there is some confusion in terminology often used on this forum (at least I am still a little confused) regarding the video signals transported via 3 wire "component" cables. Are these signals always analog?, digital?, can be either?, and does the term "component" necessarily refer to just YPbPr or is RGB also a "component" signal?

Those are going to be analog, and almost always component (YPbPr). Rarer but out there is analog RGB, you'll find that most often on professional equipment, and may be 3-5 cables depending on what the sync is(RGBhv, RGBs, or RGsB). RGB is not a component video signal, and shouldn't be referred to as that. I'm not really sure where the terminology 'component' video originally came from, but it is a Color Opponent colorspace, as opposed to an RGB space.

Quote:


Finally how does this terminology fit with signals conveyed over HDMI? I suspect if HDMI can carry some of the same signals that are caried via "component" cables, then those signals are also "component" signals just carried via HDMI connections. Is this correct terminology.

Correct. HDMI is capable of sending YCbCr, which is digital component video. It is also capable of sending digital RGB (which is also what DVI sends, but DVI usually does not send YCbCr, but it can). But yes, component video is not just analog component video. Note that all your digital content is basically exclusively encoded in component video, digitally of course. What is written on your DVDs, HD-DVDs, BRD etc is all YCbCr, not RGB.

The only reason component video exists and is used is to allow for chroma subsampling, which throws away color data which we ostensibly can't really see. RGB is superior in this sense, but more wasteful, which is why all the consumer content uses subsampled component video to save space. At some point, this component video content needs to be de-matrixed into RGB again so it can be displayed, and so what you choose to output (RGB or component) will move where the location of this color decoding is happening. For instance, if you output component, some other device like the display has to de-matrix that to RGB. If you output RGB, then obviously it has already beedn de-matrixed into RGB. Ideally, this is a simple process and is easy to do correctly, but for a whole host of reasons including incompetence, it may not be done correctly. You'll want to check color decoding with colorbars or a color decoder check pattern to see that things are properly decoded. And returning to some of those RPTVs that turn everything into component and do their "special feature" color functions, sometimes they'll just mess everything up anyway. :-/

Quote:


I really appreciate you clearing this up for me so I migh finally properly understand the terminology and plan an appropriate signal path.

Again you rock! Thanks for helping us all.

Cheers,

Gary

I try, but it's confusing.
ChrisWiggles is offline  
post #26 of 39 Old 07-01-2007, 06:23 PM
Advanced Member
 
EricM407's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 634
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

RGB is not a component video signal

Sure it is. Multiple components are being transmitted separately - component video.

Quote:


I'm not really sure where the terminology 'component' video originally came from,

I'm not either, but it was long before consumer electronics makers hijacked the term, so I bet anything it referred to cables that were carrying RGB.
EricM407 is offline  
post #27 of 39 Old 07-01-2007, 06:40 PM
Advanced Member
 
trapperjohnMD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 577
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
this thread rules!!!!
trapperjohnMD is offline  
post #28 of 39 Old 07-01-2007, 07:22 PM
Newbie
 
Amuro0079's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amuro0079 View Post

Hi, I have a question. I'm using a Dell 2707FPW LCD monitor with the PS3, and turning on RGB full range greatly improves image quality. I'm wondering if I should turn on super-white as well, or super-white is just for HDTVs, not PC monitors.

Can someone please answer my question?
Amuro0079 is offline  
post #29 of 39 Old 07-01-2007, 08:27 PM
 
ChrisWiggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 20,730
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricM407 View Post

Sure it is. Multiple components are being transmitted separately - component video.

In general usage, component video is used to distinguish luma/chroma colorspaces from RGB space. If you say component video to most engineers, they are going to be thinking specifically YPbPr/YCbCr(or wrongly 'YUV') formats as opposed to RGB. You could distinguish between composite video and then luma/chroma formats and RGB as 'component,' but in regular usage that's going to be extremely confusing. Some sources define component video as the latter (as you claim), but many do not, and in my experience component video is going to refer to luma/chroma colorspaces exclusively and not to RGB. In any case, as long as you're clear about what you mean. I use component video to mean YCbCr/YPbPr, and I say RGB when I mean RGB, I do not include RGB under the category of 'component video' because most people don't do that, even though in some technical literature it would be included.
ChrisWiggles is offline  
post #30 of 39 Old 07-01-2007, 08:28 PM
 
ChrisWiggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 20,730
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amuro0079 View Post

Can someone please answer my question?

You should probably turn on super-white. A display is a display, there's nothing inherently unique and special about displays used for computers.
ChrisWiggles is offline  
Reply Rear Projection Units

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off