Official Sony KDS-XXA3000 OWNERS THREAD! - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Wright View Post

Got my set late last week. I played with the set and short of a full calibration the set looks spectacular with the settings I settled on.

The picture from Blu-ray is the most three dimensional I have seen. I am very happy with the set. I was a bit put off at first, because out of the box and even using "cinema" the set either looked to bright or too flat. Now it sparkles.

I prefer the picture of the A3000 over the XBR2. The colors seem a bit more accurate as well when compared against a calibrated Samsung.

So, what did you do to the settings to make it "sparkle"?
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post #992 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 07:18 AM
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Yes, what are your settings now to get that sparkle?
You could become the most popular person on this thread! :-)
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post #993 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edsuski View Post

I have been waiting for these units to show up for some time now. The BB in Lake Forest has a 60" on display. I have stopped by three times now. Once I brought in 5 Blu-ray movies and asked them to hook up a Blu-ray player.

I just can not get a decent image on the thing. Maybe I am just spoiled by having a 9" Sony front projection CRT in the home theater, but at least on the 60", I can see all kinds of artifacts. Even when I hooked up the Blu-ray I was disappointed. I was able to make it look much better by turning off vivid color and changing a lot of the settings, but I can tell you that I do not see even a small fraction of the artifacts on the CRT projector with a 120" screen that I see on the KDS 60A3000.

What am I doing wrong? I really wanted to buy one of these. Is it just the 60's? Should I try to find a 50"? I'm sorry to say this (and no offense intended) but have people just gotten used to such poor video quality that they think all of these artifacts are acceptable or simply in the source. I can tell you that I see very few problems on the projector - even at twice the diagonal size.

What should I have the settings at to optimize the image?

Ed

Well, I have a 36" CRT (XBR from Sony), and other than its small size, it has an amazing picture. Its standard definition is unrivaled, and it does HD very well. Funny isnt it?

Personally, from what I see the SXRD HD pictures are better, but not by that much. Its very sad that the CRTs went the way of the dodo... They were great.

I'm not sure whats happening with the A3000 you saw, but it is a bit weird that you saw artifacts with blu-ray. Its 1080p, there is no scaling and no processing. It displays the image per pixel. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the various DRC and edge enhancement processing should not be in effect when using 1080p.
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post #994 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by gte747e View Post

Yes, what are your settings now to get that sparkle?
You could become the most popular person on this thread! :-)

I'm actually working right now so I can't get the settings. Remember, the set is still not calibrated but my big misgivings initially was how flat the picture looked OTB. I thought Standard mode looked pretty good, but still too bright and my Directv menu looked torn.

What really jumped out last night was how good standard definition directv looked. It was not the muddy dead look, I am used too, but was actually very watchable.

I popped in The Searchers last night and John Wayne's "red" shirt was a lot closer in appearance to the calibrated Samsung than it was on an uncalibrated XBR2.

If I can take some time away from the computer today, I will look at some settings so we can all compare.
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post #995 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 08:53 AM
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no pics of this TV hooked up to a PC?
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post #996 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aghusker View Post

Good news for me. This tv has all the future-proof features I want right now. Will probably upgrade from 4-year old Panny LCD RPTV in a few months.

Well, I am predicting next year we will begin to see production of Spatialight/Forreal developed LED-backlit LCoS light engines...meaning thinner sets, better color gamut, light distribution, lower power consumption, lower heat dissipation, and best of all, no more bulbs to replace.

But if you are still hanging out with your Panny LCD RPTV even after 4 years, I don't see the A3000 disappointing you in the long run.

There's too much blood in my alcohol system...
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post #997 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 10:48 AM
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I wonder what will happen to bulb prices. This is my greatest fear. Its obvious lamps are on the way out. Are we even going to be able to buy them in 5-7 years?

I wonder if we will be able to replace the lamps with a comparable LED lamp?
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post #998 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 11:07 AM
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I recieved my TV this weekend, 55A3000, so pretty soon I'll give you guys my full review and I will try to post images of eye level and different viewing angles. I will also try and post some videos showing the Motion Enhancer in play, the Motion Flow, and Theatre Mode. Once I get my new PS3, since I screwed mine up during the switch over, I'll show some Blu-Ray stuff and maybe even games as well. Word of advice to any PS3 owner, don't turn it off by pressing the PS button and hitting X twice with the TV off. The PS3 could be doing something that you don't know, mine won't play Blu-Ray movies or DVD movies properly now while I'm signed in on the network, sucks.
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post #999 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 11:18 AM
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First of all thanks to everyone for all the great information on this set. I know there has been discussions about various physical dimensions. I will be purchasing a KDS-60A3000 in a week or so, but want to start building my in-wall enclosure before I pick up my set. Can someone with the 60", or who has access to one, provide dimensions A to H per the attached drawing? I am mainly interested in dimensions A, B, C and D. I am assuming that there is a lip on the back of the screen frame similar to the A2000's (dimension A & B). Also could someone confirm the overall dimensions that I pulled from the Sony site? I can post a new drawing with all the dimensions once I have them for others to reference. I can also add other dimensions as requested. If someone wants to provide dimensions for the 50" and 55" I could make drawings for them as well. Thanks.

 

KDS-60A3000(dimensions).PDF 66.904296875k . file
LL
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post #1000 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aghusker View Post

Q1 answered.

After some quick googling, deep color is irrelevant.
See here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...p?p=10027178&&

Bottom line:
1) Deep color is not in BD or HD-DVD spec. So non-factor for next-gen movies.
2) Deep color (10-bit up to 16-bit) requires so much extra bandwidth that sattelite/cable/broadcast won't be offering it anytime soon (like 10+ years out)
3) xvYCC (wider color range) is not in BD/HD-DVD specs either. Only relevant feature is that some Sony camcorders allow recording in xvYCC. Otherwise, broader adoption is still years away (but could come more quickly than Deep Color because doesn't have bandwidth hurdle)

Bottom-bottom line:
Since A3000 has 24P True Cinema and xvYCC (and maybe if lucky also Deep Color), XBR5 offers very little advantages (in my opinion).

Good news for me. This tv has all the future-proof features I want right now. Will probably upgrade from 4-year old Panny LCD RPTV in a few months.

the xbr 5 will be deep color. ( it already says it has it in the TV descriptions on sonystyles.com) the question is whether it will be higher then 10bit, which is hard to find info on.

in my opnion deep color is a very nice feature that i belive you will see beign used in the next year or 2. especially on blu ray movies. Film scanners can alreadyt scan film up to 16bit if they want to . so really the only thing is to see if the blu ray codec will be able to work with 10 or 12 bit images.

also im sure games will end up using it too, they can create any color space they want . I belive people that keep saying it is pointless are just trying to proove to themselves why they dont want to spend an extra $1000 on a TV. hell i have done it plenty of tiems with certain technologies, just to go back and wish i spent the extra money and got the item that had more features that will be used later down the line.
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post #1001 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joevfx View Post

the xbr 5 will be deep color. ( it already says it has it in the TV descriptions on sonystyles.com) the question is whether it will be higher then 10bit, which is hard to find info on.

in my opnion deep color is a very nice feature that i belive you will see beign used in the next year or 2. especially on blu ray movies. Film scanners can alreadyt scan film up to 16bit if they want to . so really the only thing is to see if the blu ray codec will be able to work with 10 or 12 bit images.

But why higher than 10 bit?

The highest estimate of the number of colors the human eye can distinguish is 10 million, see: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/JenniferLeong.shtml

Given that 10-bit gives you 1024 x 1024 x 1024 = over 1 billion colors, why is anyone talking about 12 bit? Marketing ploy? Even 9 bit would give you 100 million colors, over 10 times the number we can see.
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post #1002 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknomo View Post

Well, I have a 36" CRT (XBR from Sony), and other than its small size, it has an amazing picture. Its standard definition is unrivaled, and it does HD very well. Funny isnt it?

Personally, from what I see the SXRD HD pictures are better, but not by that much. Its very sad that the CRTs went the way of the dodo... They were great.

I'm not sure whats happening with the A3000 you saw, but it is a bit weird that you saw artifacts with blu-ray. Its 1080p, there is no scaling and no processing. It displays the image per pixel. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the various DRC and edge enhancement processing should not be in effect when using 1080p.


Even with Blu Ray compression is the culprit and you will still see artifacts and flaws with transfers due to compression. Check the "New Tier Thread for Blu Ray". You will see the tier levels there and the reasons why explained. And like I was told with my 50 in LCD RPTV, I wouldn't see artifacts as much as I would now with my 60in. A 36 inch no matter how good the quality I guess doesn't blow the artifacts up as much and doesn't make them as apparent as it does on a 60 inch or bigger display.
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post #1003 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aghusker View Post

Q1 answered.

After some quick googling, deep color is irrelevant.
See here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...p?p=10027178&&

Bottom line:
1) Deep color is not in BD or HD-DVD spec. So non-factor for next-gen movies.
2) Deep color (10-bit up to 16-bit) requires so much extra bandwidth that sattelite/cable/broadcast won't be offering it anytime soon (like 10+ years out)
3) xvYCC (wider color range) is not in BD/HD-DVD specs either. Only relevant feature is that some Sony camcorders allow recording in xvYCC. Otherwise, broader adoption is still years away (but could come more quickly than Deep Color because doesn't have bandwidth hurdle)

Bottom-bottom line:
Since A3000 has 24P True Cinema and xvYCC (and maybe if lucky also Deep Color), XBR5 offers very little advantages (in my opinion).

Good news for me. This tv has all the future-proof features I want right now. Will probably upgrade from 4-year old Panny LCD RPTV in a few months.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrrD View Post

But why higher than 10 bit?

The highest estimate of the number of colors the human eye can distinguish is 10 million, see: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/JenniferLeong.shtml

Given that 10-bit gives you 1024 x 1024 x 1024 = over 1 billion colors, why is anyone talking about 12 bit? Marketing ploy? Even 9 bit would give you 100 million colors, over 10 times the number we can see.

im not saying sources like blu ray movies or games will ever be 12bit, cause its prolly never gonna be noticed on the consumer end. 12bit is however needed in a post production world. (film visual effects).

but anyway, 10 bit deep color i think would be perfect on consumer level tvs to help with smooth gradiation in skys and dark to light areas. im sick of seeing nasty banding.

So for me, i want my TV to be 10bit deep color even though there are no sources just yet.
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post #1004 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 12:58 PM
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read several posts stating that the 24p feature on a3000 with blu ray hd films is outstanding. super pq.

anyone try a tosh a2 hd dvd player and hd movie on a 3000 to see if this machine produces similar pq to blu ray with 24p?

neflixis our nemesis
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post #1005 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

Even with Blu Ray compression is the culprit and you will still see artifacts and flaws with transfers due to compression. Check the "New Tier Thread for Blu Ray". You will see the tier levels there and the reasons why explained. And like I was told with my 50 in LCD RPTV, I wouldn't see artifacts as much as I would now with my 60in. A 36 inch no matter how good the quality I guess doesn't blow the artifacts up as much and doesn't make them as apparent as it does on a 60 inch or bigger display.

You are talking about artifacts present in the source, no?

The poster I was replying to was saying that his CRT projector did the job better, and the A3000 had artifacts... The A3000 shouldn't introduce any artifacts at 1080p...

It would have to be in the source, correct?
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post #1006 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty2 View Post

First of all thanks to everyone for all the great information on this set. I know there has been discussions about various physical dimensions. I will be purchasing a KDS-60A3000 in a week or so, but want to start building my in-wall enclosure before I pick up my set. Can someone with the 60", or who has access to one, provide dimensions A to H per the attached drawing? I am mainly interested in dimensions A, B, C and D. I am assuming that there is a lip on the back of the screen frame similar to the A2000's (dimension A & B). Also could someone confirm the overall dimensions that I pulled from the Sony site? I can post a new drawing with all the dimensions once I have them for others to reference. I can also add other dimensions as requested. If someone wants to provide dimensions for the 50" and 55" I could make drawings for them as well. Thanks.

Right here on the sony site

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/mod...S60A3000&LOC=3

Just click on the dimentions diagram
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post #1007 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknomo View Post

You are talking about artifacts present in the source, no?

The poster I was replying to was saying that his CRT projector did the job better, and the A3000 had artifacts... The A3000 shouldn't introduce any artifacts at 1080p...

It would have to be in the source, correct?

Yes, as in the source being the Blu Ray and the compression used and NOT the A3000. However, I can understand what many have told me when comparing my 50 inch to my 60 in. The bigger the display the more the artifacts due to compression become apparent or even exacerbated.
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post #1008 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 84jeepjohn View Post

Right here on the sony site

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/mod...S60A3000&LOC=3

Just click on the dimentions diagram

Thanks that helps, but I'm still missing a few key dimensions on the back side of the bezel. Also I'm not sure if I totally trust Sony's posted dimensions.
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post #1009 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrrD View Post

Can you lay the Tv in its box down on its side?

Didn't I read somewhere that this was a no-no?

I checked the manual, they did not warn against this.

I'm asking so I can see if it will fit in the SUV, or if it will have to be delivered.

Thanks.

I picked my 60" up with a Ford (Exploder) no problem laying it down flat with screen side up. Trust me the trucking companies don't use great care with them before we get them

Oh yea, I was looking at Mitsi WD65734 & Samsung HLT6189S and chose the KDS60 A3000, so far so good
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post #1010 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by selphj View Post

I just got GRAW 2 last week, so it's actually what I was playing last night on our new 60a3000. It's excellent, especially feeding in at 1080p. I used a THX Optimizer DVD on our 360 to tune the picture last week so the levels are as good as I can get them, being a mortal and not a calibrating expert. I really don't follow the complaints about viewing angles and artifacts, etc. The picture looks great even from our couch sitting almost beside the TV. Definitely better picture and black levels than our 60xs955 had. My wife saw a defect in the screen plastic on our xs955 when it was new that the service men couldn't even see until they took the TV apart. So she's fairly quick to pick up problems with our TV screen and she is happy with the picture. If anyone wants more pictures of the TV I can try to take some but it's great to me.

Well, I have messed around with settings and the TV looks great playing 360 games, and looks amazing playing GRAW 2 except for one stage (that's I've noticed so far) In multiplayer there is a stage called embassy, and most of the background detail looks more blurry than I remember it being on my 50" A2000. I know this is a small issue, but it perplexes me because I haven't noticed the loss of detail, on the other stages I've played on so far. Oh well, I'm having an ISF calibration on the set in Oct - maybe that will iron the problem out.

XBOX 360 tag: ABARRY126
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post #1011 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 02:14 PM
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Saw the A3000 at the local Best Buy (Sunnyvale, CA). Looked very nice .. with one exception, the green of the grass was a bit electric, like it had a neon glow, quite unnatural. All the other colors looked normal, but the green wasn't very realistic.

So, I ask the owners of this TV, can the green be tuned to look natural while still preserving realistic facial tones?

The Samsung right next to the Sony had what I consider more natural greens. Otherwise, this seems to be a great TV; a 'looking out a window' impression.
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post #1012 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by half moon View Post

I picked my 60" up with a Ford (Exploder) no problem laying it down flat with screen side up. Trust me the trucking companies don't use great care with them before we get them

Oh yea, I was looking at Mitsi WD65734 & Samsung HLT6189S and chose the KDS60 A3000, so far so good

Half moon what was your deciding factor in choosing the Sony over the Mitsi. I am also looking at these 3. I was leaning towards the Samsung until the new Sony came out. I haven't seen the Sony yet, but I really liked the Samsung. Especially since there was no bulb.
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post #1013 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aparis99 View Post

no pics of this TV hooked up to a PC?

See earlier in the thread. If there is something in particular you would like to see, let me know. I use mine as a 60" monitor. I don't have satellite or cable hooked directly up to it. I use an OnAir GT and Hauppage 1600 for cable and HD reception and my HTPC for everything else.

Brian
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post #1014 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 03:52 PM
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I finally went to BB today and saw the KDS-60A3000 they had on display. It was the only Sony RPTV they had. Apparently they just sold their last A2020 floor model which was a shame. They also had a Mits and Samsung LED DLP on display.

Based on my memory of the A2020, the viewing angle was not quite as good, but hardly as bad as the Samsung. The 65" Mits was slightly better and had the same depth as the Sony 60". Congrats to Mitsubishi. As usual per my eyes, the Samsung had an unattainable sweet spot. It was not possible to view the whole screen without the bottom or top being darker. The Sony did not have this problem, so that is definitely a good sign. Sure, the margin of error was a little smaller than the A2020, but it can be easily done with vertical room to spare.

I played with all the settings and it was brighter & clearer from my memory of the 60" A2020 in all modes - another critical point I made about the A2020 and 120W lamp. Colors were more natural once taken out of vivid mode. It still had a hint of the 'Sony neon' coloring when compared to the Mits or Samsung, but it was nowhere near as bad as previous generations.

I'm hoping to hit another BB or CC in the near future that may have the A2020 there to compare, as well as different lighting. This particular BB had atrocious lighting which reflected poorly on all the TV's and made it hard to determine any natural sweet spot. In other words, in a different setting, the Sony can only look better.

Robert
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post #1015 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post

Saw the A3000 at the local Best Buy (Sunnyvale, CA). Looked very nice .. with one exception, the green of the grass was a bit electric, like it had a neon glow, quite unnatural. All the other colors looked normal, but the green wasn't very realistic.

So, I ask the owners of this TV, can the green be tuned to look natural while still preserving realistic facial tones?

The Samsung right next to the Sony had what I consider more natural greens. Otherwise, this seems to be a great TV; a 'looking out a window' impression.

It was probably on vivid mode, as they seem to default to...

The effect you are talking about seems more and more common now a days. I hate to say it, but I think its intentional. I've noticed people tend to respond to powerful, bright, and pretty colors. While this may sound good, really the most important thing is that the colors are realistic and accurate.

I see people who love plasmas with this quality. The colors are extremely vibrant and pop out of the screen. The best example is during baseball games, where the grass is bright birght green... It looks really nice. While baseball fields have very green grass though, it is sort of comical watching a Mets game in person and then coming home to see it on tv and say "wow that grass looks greener on the tv than it did in person!".

When I was at best buy comparing the A3000 to the other sets, there was a segment with a rap video. The rapper, who would normally have brown skin looked almost red on a lot of the sets (mostly plasmas and LCDs)... yet there were a few people going around and saying "hey look how great that color is".

That seems to be the typical consumer mindset. Intensity over accuracy. No one stops to think "hey the grass isn't supposed to that green" or "hey, that guy is not supposed to be red" ... they think the deeper and more vibrant the color, the better.

You can get this to some extent on the SXRD's, in vivid mode with the "picture" setting cranked all the way up. Taking it off these settings will certainly decrease the intensity of the color, but will make it much more accurate

I adjusted the picture when I was there, and the cut scene with the grass from Madden '07 looked fine to me. Mine has not yet arrived so I can't give you a definitive answer, but its probably something managable by adjusting the picture.
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post #1016 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 04:28 PM
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There is also a kind of "arms race" on the showroom floor - everyone wants their set to "pop" when sitting next to 26 others.
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post #1017 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 04:42 PM
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Thats exactly it.. Anything that grabs your attention has a higher chance of going home with you. Good marketing, bad picture
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post #1018 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 05:32 PM
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I was just settling in to wait a month or so for the a3000 to be available and discounted a bit. Now I see the XBR2s are selling for less than the a3000 as they clear them out.

How does last years XBR2 compare with the a3000 and do those ugly speakers come off?
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post #1019 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 05:35 PM
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Wow!!!!!! Just got my new PS3 today and hooked it up HDMI to look at a couple movies and F1 game. HOLY CRAP!!! It looks AMAZING!!! I have never seen a picture look soooo good. I put in POTCead Mans Chest, Apacolypto, and the F1 video game. I don't have a surround system yet so I can't comment on the audio, still working on that! But I can tell you the picture is great! The only thing that is bad...I got a call that I have to be in NM tonight so I had to catch the next flight out and can't stay at home the rest of the week to enjoy it! Wednesday is so far away!!!!
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post #1020 of 15263 Old 08-27-2007, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkiedan View Post

I was just settling in to wait a month or so for the a3000 to be available and discounted a bit. Now I see the XBR2s are selling for less than the a3000 as they clear them out.

How does last years XBR2 compare with the a3000 and do those ugly speakers come off?

Hrmm. an XBR2 is somewhat superior in regards to scaling and brightness (also more bulb changes).. It could be worth it if they are equal price..
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