A3000 Ghosts, Shadows, and Trails - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 116 Old 09-09-2007, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
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I compiled some of the more recent statements. In summary, there are a couple of theories in here, some can’t see it, some only see it at extreme angles and not while looking straight on while others do see it straight on, some see the worse case double image while looking at it from above and I have seen that from looking from below and straight on. The manager where I purchased it says that his sets don’t have the ghost / shadow / blur issue at all and that I should exchange it. This seems to be getting more confusing than less confusing.

I am contemplating the exchange as my 30 day window will end pretty soon. I am not sure if this is a unique thing to a few sets, a time frame for when the sets were made, or if it exists in all of the sets at varying degrees. The mirror alignment would seem to be very critical on these sets and I thought would not be the cause of the varied responses in here. Hmmm, still confused…

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Originally Posted by Moatist View Post

From my observation this is not isolated to the VGA.

The issue can be reproduced by simply switching inputs. You can clearly see the haze in the header menu displayed across the top of the screen. Any current owner should be able to quickly see the anomaly.

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Originally Posted by nicknomo View Post

For the ghost like image while using it as an HTPC, its is a common side effect of having a VGA cable instead of an XVGA cable. In other words, that VGA cable better be pretty damned thick... Otherwise you will get that time of ghosting..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasoa2000 View Post

Just picked up my 60' on Thursday, finally had a few minutes to play around today.

Quick question - When white letters are displayed on the top portions of the screen (this can be seen the settings menu), and I'm sitting relatively close to teh screen, it's almost as if they are casting a shadow "behind" the screen.

Is this normal?

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Originally Posted by nicknomo View Post

If I'm to be understanding this correctly, the issue is not just when you are outside the viewing angle. It is readily apparent when outside the viewing angle, however even when in the viewing angle, the sub-image is still there, causing some blur in the picture.

This makes sense, since a reflection that increases with angle doesn't disappear under 30 degrees.. it should just shift inward and be less noticeable..

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Originally Posted by nicknomo View Post

im still waiting for my set to arrive.. next weekend is the due date for it..

I checked out the ghosting issue in further detail, and on the showroom sets I can only see it from extreme angles. I think the people who are experiencing it at normal viewing angles have something wrong with their sets.. but we will see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrrD View Post



The ghosting is very apparent when you stand right over the tV, but from normal viewing angles you can't see it. As you walk away it disappears. It must be something to do with the mirror angles.



Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerTornado View Post

I see ghosting only when I'm directly on top of the set, looking down. It isn't visible at any other time. Since I don't watch tv from the very top of the set, there are no issues for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramazur View Post



Oops, forgot no ghosting.

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post #32 of 116 Old 09-09-2007, 07:56 PM
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Just a note, my second post there was hypothetical, trying to brainstorm as to why some people are seeing ghosting... I hadn't really noticed it much on the sets at the time, but I had only spent about one hour looking at them. Since then I have made several more visits several BB stores.

However, after much viewing of this tv in store, I have to conclude that something would be wrong with your set if you see some image blur in the normal viewing angle. The angle of incidence for this to occur is extremely steep... From straight on, things look fine, aside for some SSE which is par for the course with RPTVs.

You may have gotten a recalled set, or may be seeing something that you are predisposed to see (but others cannot). After about 12 hours of in store viewing (no joke - not all in one day of course), I've yet to see anything bad about these sets.
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post #33 of 116 Old 09-10-2007, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

-The second is scaling. Sources like a standalone 1080p Blu-ray or HD DVD player connected by HDMI will completely avoid the scaling issue from the source. Although, scaling can come from either the TV or the source. I'm guessing the A3000 text was from a comptuer, so if that's true then I would make sure that you're getting 1:1 like these TVs should be capable of (the A2000 can). So if your source is a computer then run http://tft.vanity.dk/monitorTest.exe and go to the 1:1 pattern. It should display as white pixels next to black pixels like it would on an LCD monitor at native resolution. If there's scaling happening in the computer then it usually gets turned into diamonds larger than pixel size. Scaling in the TV would also not display the pattern the same as where you can see the individual dots if displayed on an LCD. So if the A3000 text image posted was from a computer, getting the 1:1 pattern to display properly will take some of the guesswork out of trying to figure where the shadow comes from.

The A3000 text was from a computer and I had my resolution set to 1920x1080. I think this does result in a 1:1 mapping, but there was a couple inches of black border around the image. The manual claims that this expected.

Nikhil.
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post #34 of 116 Old 09-10-2007, 10:49 AM
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About a month ago, I set up a Samsung LCD with a customer supplied VGA cable, and it had very bad ghosting. This is common with analog signal degredation as the previous poster mentioned.

Some people having problems with their computer images may be suffering due to this. You need to have a XVGA, not just a cable labelled VGA. The connectors are the same, but the XVGA will be higher gauge and be less prone to ghosting.

Of course, some people may be having the problem due to other reasons..

The best way to connect would be DVI-to-HDMI
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post #35 of 116 Old 09-10-2007, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknomo View Post

About a month ago, I set up a Samsung LCD with a customer supplied VGA cable, and it had very bad ghosting. This is common with analog signal degredation as the previous poster mentioned.

Some people having problems with their computer images may be suffering due to this. You need to have a XVGA, not just a cable labelled VGA. The connectors are the same, but the XVGA will be higher gauge and be less prone to ghosting.

Of course, some people may be having the problem due to other reasons..

The best way to connect would be DVI-to-HDMI

The ghosting can be seen with any input, not only the PC Input. Hitting the Freeze button will put the "Freeze" text on the top right of the screen and the ghosting is evident there. It is also evident in any OSD text/graphics, when seen from a couple of feet from the TV.

For kicks, I froze an ad playing on TNT HD, which had some text with some black background and I can see the shadow behind the text. Obviously, the shadow can only be see if the background is dark/black, since it is invisible when it is covered by any other video texture.

Nikhil.

Nikhil.
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post #36 of 116 Old 09-10-2007, 03:25 PM
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Just from what you guys are saying, I would have to bank on them being defective sets. I honestly havent seen anything like this on display models... and I've seen white block lettering on dark backgrounds during the Best buy feed with a music video... It also did not happen in the menus.

If it happens with the on screen display menus, then I think you have a defective set.
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post #37 of 116 Old 09-10-2007, 03:29 PM
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Hey guys. I have a 50A3000. I am seeing the same things. You can see it best by hooking up a PC via DVI-HDMI and running the Nokia Monitor Test Program.

http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multime...tor-Test.shtml

Run the simple program and use the "Brightness and Contrast" test which is the second from the left on the top row of icons. Hovering will show the name of the test. The first screen of the test shows all of the grayscale bars. If you have color set to sRGB for the input the grayscale should be very good. Click the screen once and it will go to the second screen of the test. It is 5 small white boxes (one near each corner and one in the middle) on a black background.

In this test, the 'problem' is quite evident. The two boxes at the top show it easily. The middle box not at all. The two lower boxes just a little.

I'm almost positive the 'ghost' shows up because of the way the image is projected onto a plastic screen. The screen must be thick enough (or be two seperate sheets) so that the image passes through the inside surface of the screen in a much different location than the image passes through the outside surface of the screen. Obviously, you aren't supposed to be able to see the image on the inside surface but in extreme cases (white on black) it does show up. (see attached illustration).

I don't know how you would be able to fix this without using a different screen which is either thinner or only a single sheet of plastic.

It is less evident when the projected image is closer to straight on from the mirror because of two reasons:

1. The ghost image is directly behind the normal image.
2. The light is reflected less on the inside the more straight on the projection is so the ghost is much lighter as well.

It really isn't until you get to the outer 3rd of the screen when you can even seen the ghost period (maybe more on a 55" or 60" screen).

Does anyone agree with my findings?

DaveJ
LL
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post #38 of 116 Old 09-10-2007, 03:31 PM
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that makes sense, except wouldn't you see this ghosting on regular images?
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post #39 of 116 Old 09-10-2007, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknomo View Post

that makes sense, except wouldn't you see this ghosting on regular images?

The 'ghosting' is probably there, but it isn't as noticeable because there is other image data being displayed over the 'ghost' image. A projection of black is actually a projection of nothing (or next to nothing) so you see the 'ghost' with nothing in front of it.

DaveJ
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post #40 of 116 Old 09-10-2007, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlliniDawg01 View Post

The 'ghosting' is probably there, but it isn't as noticeable because there is other image data being displayed over the 'ghost' image. A projection of black is actually a projection of nothing (or next to nothing) so you see the 'ghost' with nothing in front of it.

DaveJ

This theory makes sense assuming the screen is that thick to cause such a distortion. It would also make sense that the A2000/A2020 would have less ghosting because the distance of the light source, due to the deeper cabinet, would minimize the reflection angles more. Not only would this help with ghosting, but as others have pointed out, make the A2000 series have a better viewing angle.

Robert
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post #41 of 116 Old 09-10-2007, 04:47 PM
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I would say that would be more likely actually..

The concept Dave illustrated is actually plainly visible, but normally you have to go outside the viewing angle to see it. If you stand on the side of your tv, or above/below it, this happens. You see a double image. The instant you go back to 50-60 degrees or lower, it goes away. From what I understand, it happens due to the reasons Dave illustrated.

I would think the reflections are a good candidate too...

The big question is... is this only a problem with a few sets. I think if you are seeing it on the tv menu, its probably a fault with the set. I looked at the tv menu, and I did not see this at all.

If it only occurs with bright white lettering and a dark background, then Id say you probably have an issue with the set.. However, I've yet to see it.. but I concede the in store video feed may not have produced a bright enough white.
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post #42 of 116 Old 09-10-2007, 06:02 PM
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Would be interesting to find out what exactly the recall was for.
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post #43 of 116 Old 09-11-2007, 06:01 AM - Thread Starter
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IlliniDawg01

THANK YOU. For what it's worth, your images show what I have believed has been the issue from the beginning. I even started to post the concept in detail and then removed it. I did not want to color anyone else’s thoughts on this. I wanted to wait until people proposed different ideas. Whew! I am so glad you put this together so elegantly. Your picture is awesome.

I also believe that this type of ghosting is not visible to the human eye in video in as much as normal vision detects things around the 15fps (arguable rate) and lower. If a localized higher contrast image is required to see this, but the image changes even at 24 to 30 fps, then a changing ghost image will most likely be cut out by the low pass filter effects of our own vision. This was even more apparent by watching a ticker that scrolled across the top of the screen slow enough such that the ghosting was visible to my neighbor who knew nothing of these discussions. I felt that nicknomo's earlier post addressed why it begins to blend in the earlier discussions as you change the angles. Worth noting and considering is that nicknomo has changed his view point on this per his subsequent posts. The blurring makes a different impact to me as the ghost starts to take on more space on a per-square-inch analysis (decreasing lux). Now that IlliniDawg01 proposed this cause, I am also curious if the diffuser plate is adding to the blurring when looking at this head on.

HOWEVER, if the drawing provided by IlliniDawg01 represents what is going on, then I don't see how we could have the diverse symptoms discussed in these threads. One possibility is that some are talking about different models (e.g. A2000). That could certainly explain away some of the variances. Others could have different vision and also different sensitivity to this issue. That would be a non deterministic variable that can’t be qualified or quantified. But I am not convinced we have explained all of the variance. The Magnolia store manager said his sets do not exhibit the problem and that I should exchange my set. This is the part where I become so confused. The optical alignment is too critical to be the cause of the variances, yet it seems to be the root cause of the ghost.

The store where I purchased it is more than 3 hours away from me. A trip of that nature will be hard to make. I will try to see additional sets at stores closer to me.

For what it’s worth, the ghosting was almost a non-issue for me, but the claims of this NOT existing on other A3000 sets is what has my head spinning. In the end, I don’t want a defective set!
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post #44 of 116 Old 09-11-2007, 06:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lipcrkr View Post

Would be interesting to find out what exactly the recall was for.

Wow, that could prove to be VERY interesting! Hmmm, seems too easy . How do we find out more from someone who is an actual primary source on this?
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post #45 of 116 Old 09-11-2007, 07:06 AM
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I'm going to go back to the store again..

As I've said, I haven't seen this issue on the set, but I havent had the liberty of seeing it from a computer..

For it to be happening on the tv menu, I find extremely suspicious. I have spent over an hour messing around with the setting in the menu in the store... even from pretty close up.. I have not seen even blurry text.

I will go again to check this out..

but a question before I go. How close are you standing, and how FAINT is this? I'm not eagle eyed, but I'm not visually impaired either.
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post #46 of 116 Old 09-11-2007, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MultimediaGeek View Post

Wow, that could prove to be interesting!

Yes, especially since some of you got the set so damned fast, and others have had to wait for the tv..

I have a feeling this may have something to do with it.
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post #47 of 116 Old 09-11-2007, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknomo View Post

I'm going to go back to the store again..

As I've said, I haven't seen this issue on the set, but I havent had the liberty of seeing it from a computer..

For it to be happening on the tv menu, I find extremely suspicious. I have spent over an hour messing around with the setting in the menu in the store... even from pretty close up.. I have not seen even blurry text.

I will go again to check this out..

but a question before I go. How close are you standing, and how FAINT is this? I'm not eagle eyed, but I'm not visually impaired either.

It is quite evident in the outer corners, especially at the top, so long as you have a dark background and very bright smaller image. The small white box on top of an all black background is probably the worst case scenario and will show the problem. If you can display that kind of image and not see anything, then it must be a per set issue and not a design flaw (which I truly believe is the issue).

That being said, other than during the white on black test, I have not once noticed the issue during regular viewing. It might be there, but I truly don't notice it from 8-10 feet.

I imagine if you have a DVD with the THX optimizer steps, you can probably find a test that will make it show up. I'll see if I can find one next chance I get.

DaveJ
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post #48 of 116 Old 09-11-2007, 08:47 AM
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Is anyone actually seeing this with a non-PC source?

I am still only seeing this in 2 situations. I see it on the OSD text displayed by the TV itself and on my Apple TV connected over HDMI directly to the TV (the main screen has white text on a black background).
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post #49 of 116 Old 09-11-2007, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifi View Post

Is anyone actually seeing this with a non-PC source?

I am still only seeing this in 2 situations. I see it on the OSD text displayed by the TV itself and on my Apple TV connected over HDMI directly to the TV (the main screen has white text on a black background).

I posted earlier about freezing the frame of an advertisement which had some white text on a black background. I could see the shadow towards the top of the text, since the text was centered in the bottom of the screen.

Nikhil.
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post #50 of 116 Old 09-11-2007, 11:07 AM
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With default settings, at a poor angle....yeah, it was atrocious. Now with decent settings, I really can't tell, whether running a PC signal or not.

I stand by everything I've thought about the viewing angle on this set, though. The vertical could definitely be better.

Certainly not a deal breaker though.....
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post #51 of 116 Old 09-11-2007, 11:18 AM
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Ok, I have just got back from best buy with some interesting results.

Firstly, yes, the double image has been there all along on the sets I've been looking at.. I apologize to everyone, I simply did not see it.

When I first walked into the store, I pulled up the antenna menu (large white block numbers) and from about 4-5 feet I saw nothing. I walked up a little closer, and was able to see the dobule image (white on black) from about 3 feet. It was worse at the top of the screen. Now this is normal for RPTV's.

The problem from a normal viewing distance, however, became more apparent when I moved the longest/largest number on the antenna menu to the top of the screen (61.1) - it was set to "3" which didn't cast much of a double image. This had a LOT of white in it, and the background was very dark due to the way sony displays the menu.

I WAS able to see this double image from up to 6-7 feet back. It was indeed noticeable, and I didn't have to look too hard to find it.

The odd part about it was that viewing angle did not matter. Unlike the double image issues you can see by putting your face right up to the screen, the image was there from every angle.

The large block numbers were by far the worst. The smaller block text from the menus wasnt nearly as bad and only noticeable if I looked really hard.

Oddly enough, white lettering from the video feed did not exhibit this. I have a feeling that this white doesn't have the same intensity & purity as the white from the menus.

I did a quick field test on some other RPTvs in the store, and to my suprise I was able to find the same effect in a good number of sets. I tested too many to record model numbers, but I saw the same thing to a lesser extent on a relatively slim samsung 76 dlp. The worst offender was actually a non-slim mitsubishi (didnt get the model number on it), which seemed to do it worse or as bad as the A3000. Some of the menus on the tvs weren't conducive to producing this effect, and since I couldn't bring my own video feed, this was the only way I could test it. The A2020 did not seem to have this issue, though.

The bottom line is that this effect is in fact on the A3000, but it was not the only tv that exhibited this effect (there were quite a few others). Of course, it is only noticeable with LARGE and BRIGHT white images. Try as I might, I could not notice any double image effect on any bright coloured video feed, even from point blank range.

Likewise, not all white text on dark background cast a visible double image that was noticeable from a normal viewing distance.. I think this is why so few people were able to notice it.
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post #52 of 116 Old 09-11-2007, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Nothing there necessarily suggests that you're doing 1:1. Either the video card or the TV can introduce scaling and keep you from getting a pixel match. It is possible that Sony redesigned the TVs to get rid of the previous optical overscan, but considering how some Nvidia drivers don't even do 1:1 I'd certainly run a test pattern before thinking I might be getting an unscaled image on-screen.

Looks like this set does not produce a 1:1 pixel mapping and PC Input is scaled. Here are my results for the 1:1 pixel mapping test with the monitorTest program - http://picasaweb.google.com/knikhil/A300011PixelMapping, both with game/text mode ON and OFF.

FWIW, the pictures were taken with the "Wide" mode being "Full 1". The only other option is "Wide", which gives me a completely pink screen. Sigh.

My 30 days expire in a couple of days. I was hopeful on this set doing a completely 1:1 pixel mapping. But, I'm not so sure now. Maybe I should get myself a Mits 65833 instead.

Nikhil.
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post #53 of 116 Old 09-11-2007, 01:08 PM
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My 0.02.

KDS-50A3000 on stand 21.5 ". Normal view distance 7.5 feet. Bring up OSD with no active input source. This insures a black screen.

AT normal view distance sitting on couch, no ghosts or shadows.

At normal view distance sitting on floor. minor shadows but limited to top 20% of screen.

1 foot from screen sitting on floor. Ghosting on top 20% of screen. minor shadows from middle of screen to top 20% of screen.

1 foot from screen standing and looking down at screen. Minor ghosting on top 15% of screen.

My conclusion: if you are sitting within the vertical viewing envelope, then you will not see ghosts/shadows.
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post #54 of 116 Old 09-11-2007, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhilwiz View Post

Looks like this set does not produce a 1:1 pixel mapping and PC Input is scaled. Here are my results for the 1:1 pixel mapping test with the monitorTest program - http://picasaweb.google.com/knikhil/A300011PixelMapping, both with game/text mode ON and OFF.

Nikhil.

I find this hard to believe that Sony would not allow it. Was this using the DVI Out on your video card to the HDMI In on the Sony? Was the resolution set to 1920?

-Robert
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post #55 of 116 Old 09-11-2007, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhilwiz View Post

Looks like this set does not produce a 1:1 pixel mapping and PC Input is scaled.

I don't find that at all surprising. The previous models had a built-in optical overscan, so it's reasonable that the new models would do the same. On the previous models you can get a pixel-for-pixel match with a 1824x1026 desktop using HDMI, so again I expect that the A3000 will at least do the same. For my ATI video card it's not a huge issue, but aside from the old Vista 158.45 drivers it can be an issue if you want to use resolution-in-resolution for an 8 series Nvidia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhilwiz View Post

I was hopeful on this set doing a completely 1:1 pixel mapping. But, I'm not so sure now. Maybe I should get myself a Mits 65833 instead.

I'm not aware of any currently produced rear projection TVs that can put a true 1080p on-screen, so I'm confused at how this is a really a deal-breaker. I would bet it is possible to get the A3000 to correctly display the test pattern with a digital input, custom mode, and the screen settings on normal (as long as the computer is not scaling the image). If it's possible to use the analog PC input to display correctly I have no idea, but aside from notebooks most all computers anymore can supply digital video so I'm confused at how the test pattern raises any major issues that would be sure to be corrected on a different RPTV.
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post #56 of 116 Old 09-12-2007, 04:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for chasing the information and reporting it here too. I still hope to get to a few stores in the next day and report back. I know where there is a BB, CC, and HH very close to each other. I will also glance at the other manufacturer's sets.

Conceptually, it sure seemed like we were getting very close as to why this is happening with help from Dave J, nicknomo, and many others. If we truly had this figured out, then 100% of the sets should have this problem. If this truly is an optics issue, then I don't understand why the input type would matter.

Even if there is only a small minority of sets NOT exhibiting this, then that means you can get a set without the blur/shadow/ghost at normal viewing angles and distances. Perhaps as nicknomo indicated, there are reasons why not everyone readily sees it.
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post #57 of 116 Old 09-12-2007, 04:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwswager View Post

It's called Physics. This TV is reflecting, projecting and focusing light!

The closer you get and more off axis, the worse the ghosting will get. If I sit on the floor in front of my A3000 using the wired keyboard and mouse to my HTPC, my eyes are about 2 feet in front at the bottom right corner of the screen. Ghosting is bad and gets worse going up the screen and to the left. At about about 4 feet in front and same postion ghosting is almost gone. In any normal viewing position you don't see it. This is normal.

If your standing 6 feet away and resonably centered and you see ghosting, it is a problem with the set as I don't have that problem.

This is another posting where things seem to conflict. His ghosting is only visibile when viewing from the floor. He does not see this when looking head on. He also does not see it from the floor at distances greater than 4 ft. Sorry to repeat his statements, but pointing out the parts that conflict with the current theories. I am also not sure if the information from the floor angles matter much here, but it is worth noting.
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post #58 of 116 Old 09-12-2007, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MultimediaGeek View Post

If this truly is an optics issue, then I don't understand why the input type would matter.

If it's an optics issue, it probably wouldn't matter. With a digital input from a PC that can correctly display a 1:1 pattern though, it's just easier to know exactly what you should be seeing on-screen. If I was considering buying one of these TVs at this time it's certainly a test I would do myself, but I'm waiting to see the XBR and price drops later this year.
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post #59 of 116 Old 09-12-2007, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valnar View Post

I find this hard to believe that Sony would not allow it. Was this using the DVI Out on your video card to the HDMI In on the Sony? Was the resolution set to 1920?

-Robert

PC Input is over VGA, and yes, I set my resolution to 1920x1080@60 (tried out @120 and @30 as well - works the same). My laptop doesn't have a DVI out, so I'm unable to test it with a digitial input.

Nikhil.
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post #60 of 116 Old 09-14-2007, 03:24 PM
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Along the line of ghosts and shadows I suppose, how does one address any geometry/convergence issues that they have with the screen. Some of the test patters and a underscan'ed computer screen resolution exhibit a bit of off geometry on my set.
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