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post #271 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 03:51 PM
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alluringreality, when you say "color decoder" what are you referring to?

All my adjustments were in the user controls.
I looked in the service menu but couldn't seem to move around in it very well.
It is not like my old HW40 at all.

Anybody know the phone number to get the service manual? I don't remember what it was when I got one for my HW40.

Troy
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post #272 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

I am stating only what is in the manual and what the manual states and NOT giving my opinion or interpretion, yet you are. Look back at your post # 266 where you say something the manual doesn't. I haven't done that, I have only stated what the manual says. You are doing what you are accusing me of, only I am not interpreting.


Yes I know one is electrical hz, but the tv standard hz was based on electrical to avoid flicker.


Sorry, but, I am not making an assumption, but, merely pointing out that the term "motionflow 120 hz technology" is not concrete proof that the 120 hz is tied to Motionflow other than for data manipulation purposes...it is a Sony trademarked buzzword.

You are interpreting/assuming in one direction...I am making a different interpretation/assumption.

As far as your 60 hz flicker comment...have you ever wondered why crt monitors often offer a higher refresh rate? Don't worry about it...has nothing to do with the subject under consideration.

I am happy to disagree on the subject.
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post #273 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 04:14 PM
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Then explain this. If the native refresh rate is 120hz and you turn off Motion Enhancer and or Cinemotion, how come we don't see flicker on 60 fps sources? If the incoming signals for tv is 60hz/fps and nothing is being done to change the native 120hz supposed native refresh rate and their is no processing, then we would see massive flicker and the picture wouldn't look right. I also just got off the phone with my Magnolia Hi Fi and they said the Samsungs and Mitsubishis do the same thing. They are both native 60hz, but when you turn on the Motion technologies on those sets it does change the refresh rate to 120hz/fps.

And Sony doesn't have any documentation on the refresh rate when you call no matter how high the level of support. I tried and they repeated the same mantra, they don't have any info on it.
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post #274 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qyv10 View Post

when you say "color decoder" what are you referring to?

Past Sonys have called the color decoder settings RYR, RYB, GYR, and GYB. That seems common all the way back to CRT, so that's what you need to find. Last year's model had them in the WEM menu under section 11 items 0-3. I had been waiting on the XBR5 so I don't actually have this TV yet, but I've read the service menu is similar and on my A2000 I've used XBR1 posts. Generally things should be similar, but it is possible that those settings might be in a little different area.

Basically once you get in you use jump to switch between the different menus. Then when you find the WEM menu (or panel if that's what you want) you can then use 2 and 5 to switch between the sections. Once you find the section you want, then 1 and 4 can change between the different items. If you want to change an item's value, use 3 and 6. I don't remember save, it might be mute and enter. The link with the xcel file (openoffice can be used) I posted near your first settings will have all the A2000 controls in it. From the other A3000 thread, the word was that the controls should be the same.

Really the color decoder seems a pain to mess with, but see Tom Huffman's CMS sticky in calibration or http://www.sencore.com/newsletter/Ma...deodisplay.htm for more information.
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post #275 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

Then explain this. If the native refresh rate is 120hz and you turn off Motion Enhancer and or Cinemotion, how come we don't see flicker on 60 fps sources? If the incoming signals for tv is 60hz/fps and nothing is being done to change the native 120hz supposed native refresh rate and their is no processing, then we would see massive flicker and the picture wouldn't look right. I also just got off the phone with my Magnolia Hi Fi and they said the Samsungs and Mitsubishis do the same thing. They are both native 60hz, but when you turn on the Motion technologies on those sets it does change the refresh rate to 120hz/fps.

And Sony doesn't have any documentation on the refresh rate when you call no matter how high the level of support. I tried and they repeated the same mantra, they don't have any info on it.

No flicker because it still 120 hz and we have either four, or five repeated frames of input data from the input 30 hz, or 24 fps data.

Whether Motionflow interpolates in between frames to create transitional frames, or the set simply repeats (or sample and holds) data for four or five counts when MotionFlow is not in play, has nothing to do with flicker. Flicker depends upon the refresh rate-hence the multiple shutter on the projector at the movie....or the interaction with 60 hz lighting which confuses the eye.

MotionNaturalizer creates flicker to some eyes when black frame insertion replaces signal frames with black frames which creates the appearance of "movie flicker" to the eye.

Now, can you cite the text in the manual, or online, that says the set reverts to 60 hz when Motionflow is not in use?

I don't know what the Mits do, but, Samsung advertises 120 hz refresh rate in their tv ads for dlp without mentioning any motion technologies. We know that 120 is required for reasonable 3d reproduction as the set displays two 60 hz picts to convince the eye that it is seeing a 3d image.
Does this with two 1080i scans as I recall.

But, I follow your digression
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post #276 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 04:44 PM
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Guys.....

From the cover of the manual:



Nowhere in the TV's settings does it ever mention "MotionFlow" (or "DFI" for that matter, though most people have conluded that is "Motion Naturalizer"). It doesn't give you a way to "disable" MotionFlow.

I think we can all assume the TV has a 120hz refresh rate, no matter what you put the settings on. There's no reason to use expensive multi-sync hardware when they don't need to.

"Motion Enhancer" is likely the inter-frame interpolation feature, and turning it off simply means that new frames are not created, it simply holds over the previous frame...
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post #277 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walk View Post

Guys.....

From the cover of the manual:



Nowhere in the TV's settings does it ever mention "MotionFlow" (or "DFI" for that matter, though most people have conluded that is "Motion Naturalizer"). It doesn't give you a way to "disable" MotionFlow.

I think we can all assume the TV has a 120hz refresh rate, no matter what you put the settings on. There's no reason to use expensive multi-sync hardware when they don't need to.

"Motion Enhancer" is likely the inter-frame interpolation feature, and turning it off simply means that new frames are not created, it simply holds over the previous frame...

You may well be right...we would have to ask the cover designer if he meant motionflow and motionflow to be synonymous. I would have guessed, (and have) that motionflow was more related to motion enhancement...or even more likely....both of them.

Sony says the set handles 24fps input properly. Be kinda hard to do without 120 hz refresh rates unless someone wants to advocate that it uses 48, 72, or 96 hz ofr 24 fps input

If you turn Motionflow off..then how is it going to handle film based 24 fps?
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post #278 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

Also I think we have a misinterpretation. In the manual, again p. 37, under the Cinemotion title it says:

"Motion Enhancer does not affect film -based content in Auto 2 mode."

It does not say Cinemotion Auto 2 disables Motion Enhancer. It does not say Cinemotion Auto 2 shuts off 120hz. It says it doesn't affect it, big difference.

yeah it does its saying motion enhancer doesnt do anythign to film based stuff, meanign it doens effect it or turns itself off, same thing. the question is whast there definition of film-based content? is it 24p blu ray stuff, 24p stuff the has a 2:3 pulldown in it, or both?
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post #279 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strawdawg View Post

MotionFlow is the frame enhancement applied to 120 hz frames in my opinion. I believe you are interpreting it the way you wish to believe, and reading something into the words that are not implicitly stated, but rather, is your opinion. Your opinion is no better than mine.

Nothing personal. At this time, it is not known.

As far as the 60 hz goes........

the way they are stating it is that motion flow is 120hz. it woudl be good for a place liek cnet to use there sony contects and find out what all this motion flow talk is
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post #280 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walk View Post

Guys.....

From the cover of the manual:



Nowhere in the TV's settings does it ever mention "MotionFlow" (or "DFI" for that matter, though most people have conluded that is "Motion Naturalizer"). It doesn't give you a way to "disable" MotionFlow.

I think we can all assume the TV has a 120hz refresh rate, no matter what you put the settings on. There's no reason to use expensive multi-sync hardware when they don't need to.

"Motion Enhancer" is likely the inter-frame interpolation feature, and turning it off simply means that new frames are not created, it simply holds over the previous frame...

Walk, according to this.....you are correct

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=880615
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post #281 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walk View Post

Guys.....

From the cover of the manual:



Nowhere in the TV's settings does it ever mention "MotionFlow" (or "DFI" for that matter, though most people have conluded that is "Motion Naturalizer"). It doesn't give you a way to "disable" MotionFlow.

I think we can all assume the TV has a 120hz refresh rate, no matter what you put the settings on. There's no reason to use expensive multi-sync hardware when they don't need to.

"Motion Enhancer" is likely the inter-frame interpolation feature, and turning it off simply means that new frames are not created, it simply holds over the previous frame...

actually in the manual it says turnign on the motion enhancer ENABLES motion flow. so you can turn it on and off.

also I do belive this set has multiply refress rates like a crt. i jsut ge tthat impression has i was told by a few sony tech guys that the tv doesnt have a set color bit either (so its not set at say 10bit ) it can display whatever it recievs ( now that it has a deep color input). i knwo the two are totally different but everyoen has to realize that TV technology is changing, so we can really compair them to the way the used to be. Even umr says this TV is totally different then the last one when he tried to calibrate one.
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post #282 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strawdawg View Post

Walk, according to this.....you are correct

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=880615

what he is talkign about ( the black frame insertion gamma thing) soudn exactly liek the discription of the motion naturalizer. I stand by my statement in sayign that Motion Flow is the COMBINATION of the motion enhancer , motion naturalizer, and cinemotion. They are seperating them into three things for users to hace more controller over the look they want, but i have a feelign they hav eto be all on to get the MOtion flow look Soyn is talking about, hence the reason they give you that chart in teh manual to help tell you how to set each one.
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post #283 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 05:31 PM
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interestign video trying to show the effects of motion enhancer

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Sony-KDL32...n-Enhancer.php
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post #284 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 06:04 PM
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this is from HD guru, about 120hxz in sony LCD tvs, nto sure if its the same for the sxrd

I agree with you this is confusing. First lets get 120 Hz off the table, because it is the Sony LCD TV that internally converts to 120 Hz from 60 Hz by doing a frame interpolation of the 60 Hz content. You only need to be concerned about how content gets converted to 1080p/60Hz (within the source or the Sony LCD).

Your best bet is to use a Blu-ray player that will convert its native film based content from 1080p/24 to 1080p/60 by accurately achieving 3:2 conversion (I have not tested the PS3 but others have). When the 3:2 is done within the player it is not needed to be done within the TV, working around Sony’s inabilitiy to properly do 3:2 pulldown . The TV will simply take the 60 frame content and convert it to display @120HZ leaving the proper cadence intact.

You can use the Silicon Optix Blu-ray test disc to make sure your player is doing 3:2 properly.


There will be a special offer soon for the HD Guru’s disciples (I mean readers) to purchase the HQV HD discs at a substantial discount.


The HD Guru


it doesnt really make sense cause that model of TV is said to ACCEPT a 24p signal, meanign it deosnt need to be converted to 60. unless these TVs cant display at 24p which means it needs to be covnerted to 60, with cinmetion, then its converted to 120hz with the motionflow. So basically its sounding like Sony lied and their TV cant do any of the stuff they said nativly , its all conversion processes.

None of the 120 HZ TV convert directly to 120Hz. I know because I have asked all the 120 HZ LCD vendors. To know you achieve proper 3:2 pulldown, get a Blur-ay or HD DVD player that will send a 1080p/60 signal that is properly decoded. I have confirmed the Samsung BDP-1200 (Blu-ray) and the Toshiba HD-XA2 (HD-DVD) do this. Both use the Silicon Optix Reon chip.

HD Guru
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post #285 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 06:18 PM
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I THINK I FOUND A GREAT POST READ THIS

The following Sony rear projectors and LCD’s have been added to the list



REAR PROJECTORS
KDS-Z70XBR5
KDS-60A3000
KDS-55A3000
KDS-50A3000

LCD
KDL-52XBR5
KDL-46XBR5
KDL-40XBR5
KDL-52XBR4
KDL-46XBR4
KDL-40XBR4

All other current Sony rear projectors and LCD’s that do have a 1080P/24 input refresh 1080P/24 material incorrectly at 60HZ.

For 1080P/24 to be refreshed correctly at multiplies of the original frame on the Sony’s you must turn off Motion Enhancer.Turning on Motion Enhancer at the HDMI input where the 1080P/24 BLU-RAY or HD-DVD player is connected will result in interpolation of new frames instead of repeating each frame multiply times.
The main benefit of the Motion Enhancer is for 60HZ sources to have reduced flicker and look smoother. Also if one wants to use the Motion Enhancer for 1080P/24 material they can experience some improvements once and a while. The downside to the Motion Enhancer being turned on is that it can sometimes cause artifacts since the Motion Enhancer does not work correctly 100% of the time. Some of the problems that the Motion Enhancer can cause are a “halo” around objects and Motion Enhancer can make the image flow look unnatural.Also with the Motion Enhancer turned on 1080P/24 film material can sometimes look like 60HZ video since it makes things look smooth.

LCD’s are improving in quality but other display technologies like Plasma’s offer faster response times and better black levels compared to LCD’s.

Converting a 1080p/60 or 1080p/24 source to 1080p/120 requires simulating the additional frames in some way, since they are not in the source. There are three ways to do this: interpolation of new frames, repeating the original frame multiple times, or making every other repeated frame a black frame. Motionflow creates these addition frames by the first method—temporal interpolation.”

“If the source does not contain 3/2 pulldown, such as a 1080p/60 video-originated source or a 1080p/24 film-based source from a Blu-ray or HD DVD player, Motionflow adds either one interpolated frame (1080p/60) or four interpolated frames (1080p/24) to each source frame to reach the 120Hz refresh rate required by the set's 120Hz operation. If you turn the Motion Enhancer off, each source frame is simply repeated as many times as needed to get to 120Hz, with no interpolation.”

This entire 1080P/24 issue and motion settings with 120HZ displays keeps getting more complicated. I had to read the above review link several times and do some more research to see what is going on. I get the feeling the average consumer is going to get confused with all of these new settings on the Sony’s and other displays in the future that have a 120HZ refresh rates. Gone are the days when one could just purchase a TV and turn it on with out making major adjustments. If the display is setup wrong one can experience more judder and flicker then with their existing display. The settings are very important.
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post #286 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 06:41 PM
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^^All facetiousness intended, we have been watching this set screwed up and no one has a clue yet how it really should be viewed with source material? It seems as though the posts you made contradict or make it more complicated to understand.
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post #287 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

^^All facetiosness intended, we have been watching this set screwed up and no one has a clue yet how it really should be viewed with source material? It seems as though the posts you made contradict or make it more complicated to understand.

it seems like, the sets ARE nativly 120hz from my last post. it seems like the only way to show 24p stuff un touched is to turn off motion enhancer. thast hwat i got from it
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post #288 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

^^All facetiosness intended, we have been watching this set screwed up and no one has a clue yet how it really should be viewed with source material? It seems as though the posts you made contradict or make it more complicated to understand.


Finally!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Something we can agree upon!!! Sounds contradictory to me, too.

My set surely has an outstanding picture. So far, I have not been able to screw it up. My own experience says keep ME on standard, and MN off. I think it is 120 hz with minimal interpolation, and, no black frame insertion.

Whatever it is, I like the outcome.
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post #289 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Strawdawg View Post

Finally!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Something we can agree upon!!! Sounds contradictory to me, too.

My set surely has an outstanding picture. So far, I have not been able to screw it up. My own experience says keep ME on standard, and MN off. I think it is 120 hz with minimal interpolation, and, no black frame insertion.

Whatever it is, I like the outcome.

yeah i mean in teh end its settign it how u like it to look, thats why sony gives u all these settings. I just want to know what they are doing and what is "correct " for 24p before i decied if i want to process the signal to make is smoother.
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post #290 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 08:05 PM
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The panel is NATIVE 1080P Yes but how many here suggest it's native 120Hz makes no sense otherwise it would be a default you could not turn off.

It's an enhancement "FEATURE" - I doubt there are any panels that could be or that we'd want to be Native 120Hz full-time since there would be some types of content where it may be problematic and many reports this as to be a FACT whether it's on an LCD or an SXRD.

The Panel is 60Hz Natively IMO and the 120Hz is an enhancement feature. I guess it may determine by how one defines "Native" Sonystyle identifies it as a Feature after all it should make sense that the signal being received is in fact being received as a 60Hz signal. and then the featureset kicks in if chosen - it's a selectable feature isn't it with the option of not using?

Samsung 65F8000, 60D8000, 40HU6350, Panasonic 50E60 LCD's
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post #291 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by westa6969 View Post

The panel is NATIVE 1080P Yes but how many here suggest it's native 120Hz makes no sense otherwise it would be a default you could not turn off.

It's an enhancement "FEATURE" - I doubt there are any panels that could be or that we'd want to be Native 120Hz since there would be some types of content where it may be problematic and many reports this as to be a FACT whether it's on an LCD or an SXRD. The Panel is 60Hz Natively IMO and the 120Hz is an enhancement feature not a Native feature that would be qualify as "Native".

if that was the case then the TV would not be able to play back 24p sources with motion enhancer off unless it do a revers pulldown. if you read the findigns up top it says to watch 24p sources untouched/un converted motion enhancer should be OFF. so this tells me the set is native 120hz, and motion enhancer is to smoother the frames out even more. Sony also staed that there 24true cinema plays back 24p sources UNCONVERTED, so the TV has to be 120hz.
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post #292 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scJohn View Post

color gamut I think the answer is no. Gray Scale color temperature Kelvins I have a table of before and after starting at 100 IRE and ending at 20 IRE. Is that what u are looking for?

Yes, that would be fine.

I do not believe that Eliab would have a problem posting this data. Everyone knows that Eliab is one of the best calibrators around. The data would show the limit of the set, not the calibrator.

Thanks again.

don...

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post #293 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 08:22 PM
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here is a great artcile about the XBR4 BUT IT EXPLAINES EXACTLY WHAT MOTION FLOW IS. THis is a great article read it it explains everything

http://www.guidetohometheater.com/fl...r4/index1.html

here are quick snippets

" TV ALWAYS runs at 120hz"

" motion enhancer activates motion flow and helps with up converting non 120hz sources to the tvs 120hz refresh rates"

"If the source does not contain 3/2 pulldown, such as a 1080p/60 video-originated source or a 1080p/24 film-based source from a Blu-ray or HD DVD player, Motionflow adds either one interpolated frame (1080p/60) or four interpolated frames (1080p/24) to each source frame to reach the 120Hz refresh rate required by the set's 120Hz operation. If you turn the Motion Enhancer off, each source frame is simply repeated as many times as needed to get to 120Hz, with no interpolation. "

"If the source contains 3/2 pulldown, such as 1080p/60 video from a film-based source, the 3/2 pulldown is not removed. Motionflow converts the 1080p/60 source directly to 1080p/120 by adding one interpolated frame to each source frame. If you turn the Motion Enhancer off, each source frame of a 1080p/60 signal is merely repeated once to reach a 120Hz refresh rate, but there is no frame interpolation"

"But the Sony's deinterlacing and scaling performance, with a 480i input, was disappointing. It performed poorly on many of the difficult video processing torture tests on the HQV Benchmark DVD (with the set's CineMotion set to either Auto1 or Auto2). .....Sony's own VPL-AW15 LCD projector, reviewed here recently, performed far better. So do many upconverting DVD players. "

"Sony's processing performed much better, however, when converting 1080i sources to the set's 1080p resolution. It still did not recognize and deal with 3/2 pulldown, but it did perform the deinterlacing properly and only rarely showed video processing artifacts with a 1080i or 720p source. And these were minor and fleeting."

guess that means turn off cinemotion for your dvds and let the dvd player do it.

what a good find i made

interesting after comment

"Though "movie mode" presets are not new, Sony developed "Theater Mode" in consultation with Sony Pictures movie studio with the same team that works on mastering movies for Blu-ray Disc. Sony's TV design team went to the Blu-ray/DVD mastering studio with prototypes of the XBR4 model and tweaked settings beyond the user settings -- even the service mode settings -- to optimize the picture and ensure accurate reproduction of the intended mood of the original film when it was transferred."

hmmm even service menu tweaks, has anyone used there theater mode on teh tv?
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post #294 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 08:55 PM
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what a good find i made

A most excellent find, indeed.

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post #295 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 09:22 PM
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The panel is NATIVE 1080P Yes but how many here suggest it's native 120Hz makes no sense otherwise it would be a default you could not turn off.

It's an enhancement "FEATURE" - I doubt there are any panels that could be or that we'd want to be Native 120Hz full-time since there would be some types of content where it may be problematic and many reports this as to be a FACT whether it's on an LCD or an SXRD.

The Panel is 60Hz Natively IMO and the 120Hz is an enhancement feature. I guess it may determine by how one defines "Native" Sonystyle identifies it as a Feature after all it should make sense that the signal being received is in fact being received as a 60Hz signal. and then the featureset kicks in if chosen - it's a selectable feature isn't it with the option of not using?

Thanks for your input
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post #296 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 09:24 PM
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here is a great artcile about the XBR4 BUT IT EXPLAINES EXACTLY WHAT MOTION FLOW IS. THis is a great article read it it explains everything

Joe, gotta give you credit! You definitely don't give up. Good research!
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post #297 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 10:05 PM
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Nice except they are talking about LCDs here, not SXRD. But they may be similar and most of it makes sense from what I've seen on my A3000.

Like this
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Without the Motion Enhancer, the vertical edges on both sides of the columns flicker badly as they move across the frame. With the Motion Enhancer on Standard, however, the flicker virtually disappears.

I saw the same on Pirates of the Carribean Blu-ray.

When he talks about "1080p60" sources that have 3:2 pulldown though... I don't think any such thing exists. There are 1080i sources with 3:2 (film-source Hi-Def movies and primetime TV) so maybe that section is applicable to that... But there aren't any 1080p/60 sources.. at all. There might be 720p/60 sources (ESPN, ABC) but do they pulldown film content the same way as interlaced channels?
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post #298 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 10:11 PM
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Nice except they are talking about LCDs here, not SXRD. But they may be similar and most of it makes sense from what I've seen on my A3000.

Like this
I saw the same on Pirates of the Carribean Blu-ray.

When he talks about "1080p60" sources that have 3:2 pulldown though... I don't think any such thing exists. There are 1080i sources with 3:2 (film-source Hi-Def movies and primetime TV) so maybe that section is applicable to that... But there aren't any 1080p/60 sources.. at all. There might be 720p/60 sources (ESPN, ABC) but do they pulldown film content the same way as interlaced channels?

they use the same technology in there LCDS and SXRDs except the way the tv shows the picture obviolsy. one thign i wish he woudl ahve talked about in teh article is the motion naturalizer, but hopefully they will do a A3000 review liek this one adn explain it

yes there or 1080p60 sources with 3:2 pulldown i have worked on commercials like this.
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post #299 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 10:12 PM
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Joe, gotta give you credit! You definitely don't give up. Good research!

yeah haha when i need to knwo something i need to know it

atleast we know now for a fact that the tv is native 120hz, and does do 24p at 5x5 if u have motion enhancer off.
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post #300 of 4486 Old 10-08-2007, 10:23 PM
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Was anyone else as interested in the theater mode that has the service menu tweaks in it as i am?
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