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post #361 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Amp98 View Post

I may be totally off on this. Please correct me if I am.

My understanding is that DVD players aren't capable of outputting 24p. If that is the case, a progressive scan dvd player for example would perform the reverse pull down, get the original 24 progressive frames, repeat 6 of those and output a 480p/30 signal. With this scenario you still have judder due to the repeated frames. From an earlier post it's looks like in this scenario the A3000 wouldn't remove the extra frames. It would just repeat each of the 30, 4 times.

The other option would be to pass 480i to the A3000 and let it do the reverse pulldown. The A3000 doesn't have the 30 f/s restriction and could take the 24 frames, repeat each 5 times for judder free playback.

The only thing you have incorrect is that you would get 480p/60, not 480p/30. After a reverse 3:2 pulldown you get 10 progressive frames for every 4 original film frames.

I had not thought about CineMotion trying to restore the original 24 fps and displaying it directly. It is certainly possible, but I don't think we know if it does or not. You could even input 480p from a progressive scan and revert that back to 24 fps by simply throwing out all the repeated frames.

The question is whether or not this was designed into CM by Sony. It would represent a change from every other implementation of CM to this point.

The other problem, which may make whether it can do 24 fps or not moot, is that the CM detection is very poor. It has to know what material to do its work on before it is of any real use. I think this is why Joe and others are recommending to let the DVD player do the pulldown.

P.S. - There is one player that can output 24 fps from DVD, the Tosh HD DVD A4. The PS3 may also be able to do it with a software update. I spoke with Oppo about including that feature in their line of players (the 981 specifically), and they stated that they could not due to a limitation of the current chipset. I would not be surprised if other DVD players had the same limitation

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post #362 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 08:54 AM
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Alright so I just got this set on Tuesday (the 60A3000) and these are my settings (when using the PS3 and Avia/the test patterns on a Sony Blu-Ray). If I don't mention something on here, just assume I didn't change it. I also have theater mode on, which seems to work better with Blu-Ray than anything else. It's also the only way I can get the color set right.

PM: Custom
Iris: Low
P-38
B-45
C-52
Color Space: Wide

Now, the problem I am having is the screen never gets black black. This is my first set since I got rid of my old CRT, so maybe I am not used to it yet. But when the screen is supposed to be dark (be it a black moment in a movie, or if a movie is presented in scope widescreen (2.35)) nothing is ever truly black. Is there a setting I am missing? Or another way to calibrate it closer? Any help would be awesome! I love the set, I just can't get it as dark as I was hoping.
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post #363 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 09:25 AM
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Power saving can give a little less light on black. Minimum iris would give you a little darker black. The auto iris2 would give the same black, but open on whites. The only way to get a darker black from min and auto2 with power saving is probably iris in the service menu. Regardless of what you do, the absolute black is going to somewhat relate to how much light you want out of the tv to make the lightest grayscale appear white.
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post #364 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaytonMG View Post

Alright so I just got this set on Tuesday (the 60A3000) and these are my settings (when using the PS3 and Avia/the test patterns on a Sony Blu-Ray). If I don't mention something on here, just assume I didn't change it. I also have theater mode on, which seems to work better with Blu-Ray than anything else. It's also the only way I can get the color set right.

PM: Custom
Iris: Low
P-38
B-45
C-52
Color Space: Wide

Now, the problem I am having is the screen never gets black black. This is my first set since I got rid of my old CRT, so maybe I am not used to it yet. But when the screen is supposed to be dark (be it a black moment in a movie, or if a movie is presented in scope widescreen (2.35)) nothing is ever truly black. Is there a setting I am missing? Or another way to calibrate it closer? Any help would be awesome! I love the set, I just can't get it as dark as I was hoping.

The SXRD doesn't have blacks as black as plasma or a CRT. It takes some getting used to. I think upping the contrast (picture) would help make the picture better. Adding a backlight (bias light) may also be beneficial. Those two would mainly adjust your perception of how black black is, but every little bit helps.

BTW, did you notice if Theater Mode made blacks blacker?

If you've had half as much fun reading this post as I've had writing it, well then, I've had twice as much fun writing this post as you've had reading it.
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post #365 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 09:48 AM
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You know, I just did some testing, and I don't recommend using Theater mode. Everytime you use it, you have to switch the settings back to custom, and I believe it turns on the motion naturalizer every single time. It's just odd that when using the Avia set up disc, the only way to get the color bars to work the best is to change the color space to max and turn on theater mode. It completely gets rid of the flashing you see when using a Blue Filter. But no, theater mode didn't help with the black levels at all. Personally, I'd rather have the picture not reach the black levels my last TV did because I had so many problems with the picture being to dark. If I turned up the brightness to see things, it'd probably be about as bright as the black on this TV, if not brighter. Did that even make sense? Either way, this set it simply amazing, I cannot believe the improvement.
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post #366 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaytonMG View Post

You know, I just did some testing, and I don't recommend using Theater mode. Everytime you use it, you have to switch the settings back to custom, and I believe it turns on the motion naturalizer every single time. It's just odd that when using the Avia set up disc, the only way to get the color bars to work the best is to change the color space to max and turn on theater mode. It completely gets rid of the flashing you see when using a Blue Filter. But no, theater mode didn't help with the black levels at all. Personally, I'd rather have the picture not reach the black levels my last TV did because I had so many problems with the picture being to dark. If I turned up the brightness to see things, it'd probably be about as bright as the black on this TV, if not brighter. Did that even make sense? Either way, this set it simply amazing, I cannot believe the improvement.


i woudl think theater mode woudl be the way to go for blu ray movies, i mean they say it was tweaked by blu ray people to get the best ouf of blu ray. turnign on theater mode also actives the service mode tweaks they did, and prolly turns on MN cause its the best way to get theater like 24p play back from a blu ray with black frame insertion
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post #367 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 10:22 AM
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all this tlak about dvd beign 480/30 or whatever and needign cinemotion to convert it made me think. does this just matter if you are sendign the signal ove rto the tv at 480? woudltn you only need cinemotion then. isnt everyone that has a blu ray player or a newer upscaling dvd player sending the signal over at 1080p? so if you do that then you still dont need cinemotion on correct?
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post #368 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 10:30 AM
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Any progscan or HD upscaling player would have already applied "film mode" reverse 3:2 pulldown on 480p or higher output, yes.

If you are feeding raw 480i/NTSC from your DVD player, then it won't.

Note the PS3 does not even allow NTSC/480i output over HDMI - 480p minimum.
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post #369 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walk View Post

Any progscan or HD upscaling player would have already applied "film mode" reverse 3:2 pulldown on 480p or higher output, yes.

If you are feeding raw 480i/NTSC from your DVD player, then it won't.

Note the PS3 does not even allow NTSC/480i output over HDMI - 480p minimum.

ok to be specific to my situation. I have a PS3 and it upconverts dvds to 1080p and outputs over HDMI, so i can turn cinemotion off on the TV then since its not needed correct? i just want to make sure ciemotion its not trying to do a pulldown when it doesnt have to so i want to turn it off to make sure.
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post #370 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

P.S. - There is one player that can output 24 fps from DVD, the Tosh HD DVD A4. The PS3 may also be able to do it with a software update. I spoke with Oppo about including that feature in their line of players (the 981 specifically), and they stated that they could not due to a limitation of the current chipset. I would not be surprised if other DVD players had the same limitation

What is the A4? I've never seen this player, the current crop of Toshiba HD players are in the A3 series. I was under the impression that all of the players A20 and up could handle 24fps.
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post #371 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by tkdee View Post

What is the A4? I've never seen this player, the current crop of Toshiba HD players are in the A3 series. I was under the impression that all of the players A20 and up could handle 24fps.

I'm sure that you are correct, although I thought I read about an A4 series. I'm sure that you are right as I have no experience with any of the Toshiba players other than what I have breifly scanned over.

I guess my point was that the only player(s) I know of that can currently output 24p from DVD are the Toshibas... thanks for correcting me on the model numbers. I apologize for the error.

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post #372 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walk View Post

Any progscan or HD upscaling player would have already applied "film mode" reverse 3:2 pulldown on 480p or higher output, yes.

If you are feeding raw 480i/NTSC from your DVD player, then it won't.

Note the PS3 does not even allow NTSC/480i output over HDMI - 480p minimum.

If the output format is progressive, a.k.a 480p, 720p, 1080p. 1080i will still have a 3:2 pulldown applied for the same reasons 480i has a 3:2 applied.

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post #373 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

If the output format is progressive, a.k.a 480p, 720p, 1080p. 1080i will still have a 3:2 pulldown applied for the same reasons 480i has a 3:2 applied.

So really its only good to keep cinemotion on for HD cable or direct TV, casue thast eitehr 1080i or 720p correct. its pointless to have it on durign bluray play back or DVDs upconverted to 1080p playback, turnign it off will have you know for sure that tis not attemptign to do a conversion on sources it shoudltn be. hence why people might be seeing a difference between ME on/cinemtion on and ME on/ cinemotion off on blu ray play back. cinemotion is prolly doing something it shoudlnt to the blu ray source.
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post #374 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by joevfx View Post

i woudl think theater mode woudl be the way to go for blu ray movies, i mean they say it was tweaked by blu ray people to get the best ouf of blu ray. turnign on theater mode also actives the service mode tweaks they did, and prolly turns on MN cause its the best way to get theater like 24p play back from a blu ray with black frame insertion

See I'd leave it on but A, I don't notice much of a difference and B, somtimes during brighter scenes with moving objects the screen will flicker. So I just set it to off...
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post #375 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonMG View Post

See I'd leave it on but A, I don't notice much of a difference and B, somtimes during brighter scenes with moving objects the screen will flicker. So I just set it to off...

yeah but if u are watchign a 1080p movie and leave it on, you are risking cinemtion doin un needed conversions on the source which it has been known to do .
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post #376 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 01:41 PM
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Wait... if I leave the MN on, I'd be risking Cinemotion adding issues? So... wouldn't I want MN off? And also, I should turn Cinemotion off for 1080i/p sources, right?
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post #377 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaytonMG View Post

Wait... if I leave the MN on, I'd be risking Cinemotion adding issues? So... wouldn't I want MN off? And also, I should turn Cinemotion off for 1080i/p sources, right?

it just seem sliek peopel are seeing dfference with cinemotion on with ME on and cinemotion off with ME on. technically you dont need cinemotion on for 1080p sources. hell from how i readthat ultimate AV article about 120hz you dotn even need cinemotion on for 1080i stuff. infact its not suppossed to do anythign to any HD footage only 480i stuff its usppossed to effect.
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post #378 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 02:04 PM
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It should disable itself on 1080/24p anyway.

If it's 1080i (cable/sat) you might want to use it.

"IT" being CineMotion.
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post #379 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 02:08 PM
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Why is it that when I use 1080i on a Blu-Ray movie, the TV switches to 1080/24p anyway? I was testing the differences between 1080i and 1080p being selected and I ended up not being able to tell the difference due to the fact that the TV automatically switches the 1080i output (from the 1080p source) to 1080/24p.
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post #380 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walk View Post

It should disable itself on 1080/24p anyway.

If it's 1080i (cable/sat) you might want to use it.

"IT" being CineMotion.

SHOULD is the key word here, the poitn beign is that its detection algorithm doesnt really work well. so its better that ou choose for it, which is pretty simple. if you have an hd dvd or blu ray player that outputs 1080p and upconverts dvd then you can turn cinemotion off for that input.

this is straight from an article about motion flow

"If the source contains 3/2 pulldown, such as 1080i/60 video from a film-based source, the 3/2 pulldown is not removed. Motionflow converts the 1080i/60 source directly to 1080p/120 by adding one interpolated frame to each source frame. If you turn the Motion Enhancer off, each source frame of a 1080i/60 signal is merely repeated once to reach a 120Hz refresh rate, but there is no frame interpolation. "

so its looks like cinemotion doesnt even have to be on for 1080i stuff, just 480i stuff.
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post #381 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joevfx View Post

SHOULD is the key word here, the poitn beign is that its detection algorithm doesnt really work well. so its better that ou choose for it, which is pretty simple. if you have an hd dvd or blu ray player that outputs 1080p and upconverts dvd then you can turn cinemotion off for that input.

this is straight from an article about motion flow

"If the source contains 3/2 pulldown, such as 1080i/60 video from a film-based source, the 3/2 pulldown is not removed. Motionflow converts the 1080i/60 source directly to 1080p/120 by adding one interpolated frame to each source frame. If you turn the Motion Enhancer off, each source frame of a 1080i/60 signal is merely repeated once to reach a 120Hz refresh rate, but there is no frame interpolation. "

so its looks like cinemotion doesnt even have to be on for 1080i stuff, just 480i stuff.

The article you are referring to doesn't say anything about CM or what it does... it just states that MotionFlow doesnt remove a 3:2 pulldown (which is kind of a silly thing to say considering it was never intended to).

I don't know for sure if CM would remove a 3:2 pulldown from 1080i, but there is plenty of 1080i material that has a 3:2 pulldown that could be removed.

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post #382 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walk View Post

It should disable itself on 1080/24p anyway.

If it's 1080i (cable/sat) you might want to use it.

"IT" being CineMotion.

Walk,
I'm afraid Joe is right, it should turn itself off but apparently it doesn't. Try turning on ME to high and CM to Auto1... you will see that only when CM is on do you get the funky "creepy" affect.

The only theory I have is that the interpolated frames created by ME trick CM's detection algorithm, which is why Sony included Auto2 for CM which "ignores" ME.

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post #383 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaytonMG View Post

Why is it that when I use 1080i on a Blu-Ray movie, the TV switches to 1080/24p anyway? I was testing the differences between 1080i and 1080p being selected and I ended up not being able to tell the difference due to the fact that the TV automatically switches the 1080i output (from the 1080p source) to 1080/24p.

Don't know, but that is interesting. Someone brought up the idea that the TV could do a reverse 3:2 pulldown on 1080i film material and retrieve the original 24 fps material. Maybe it is doing just that?

Strictly just a wild guess, I'm probably not even close to right.

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post #384 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

The article you are referring to doesn't say anything about CM or what it does... it just states that MotionFlow doesnt remove a 3:2 pulldown (which is kind of a silly thing to say considering it was never intended to).

I don't know for sure if CM would remove a 3:2 pulldown from 1080i, but there is plenty of 1080i material that has a 3:2 pulldown that could be removed.

maybe what they mean by "removes" is that it doesnt do a conversion like cinemotion does but rather takes apart the fields itself and makes new frames?

i guess the bottome line is, if u have a PS3 (or any HD or dvd layer that ouptuts 1080p) as your main movie device you can turn off cinemotion for the PS3's HDMI input. i guess with braodcast stuff, tests have to be done to see how it looks when cinemotion is on and off with 1080i stuff.
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post #385 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 03:10 PM
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"For 1080P/24 to be refreshed correctly at multiplies of the original frame on the Sony’s you must turn off Motion Enhancer.Turning on Motion Enhancer at the HDMI input where the 1080P/24 BLU-RAY or HD-DVD player is connected will result in interpolation of new frames instead of repeating each frame multiply times.
The main benefit of the Motion Enhancer is for 60HZ sources to have reduced flicker and look smoother. Also if one wants to use the Motion Enhancer for 1080P/24 material they can experience some improvements once and a while. The downside to the Motion Enhancer being turned on is that it can sometimes cause artifacts since the Motion Enhancer does not work correctly 100% of the time. Some of the problems that the Motion Enhancer can cause are a “halo” around objects and Motion Enhancer can make the image flow look unnatural.Also with the Motion Enhancer turned on 1080P/24 film material can sometimes look like 60HZ video since it makes things look smooth"

the statement in bold backs the reason why ME is turned off when you use "theater mode" sicne that mode was tweaked by the blu ray camp to display blu ray movies to its fullest.
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post #386 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 03:20 PM
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Does anybody have any good XBOX 360 settings for component or vga ??
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post #387 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 06:02 PM
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A question for the experts. Note I only notice this on NBC HD. NBC seems to be the only problem child.

For programs like L&O SVU or Bionic Woman I noticed what is potential ghosting or motion blur. Not sure of the right terminology to tell you the truth. A good description would be if a pitcher threw a baseball you might see 2 or 3 baseballs simultaneously with the "oldest" being the least visible. Note I'm not talking about a comet trail.

My system comprises of the A3000, TWC, and SA8300 HD-DVR. Not I also saw the same symptom OTA for NBC.

Attached is a still pause from the DVR. This is during a camera pan and the lady's head can be seen twice. One faintly visible outline of a head and the current image.

Note though with NBC programs like the Today Show, Nightly News, or Leno I don't see any of this blur/ghosting. Of the three NBC nightime shows I watch (SVU, Bionic, and Heroes), I think Bionic is the worst offender and Heroes the least.

Finally, other HD programming from ABC, CBS, FOX, HDNet, etc seem fine. So any ideas why this might occur with NBC HD
LL
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post #388 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by merlintl View Post

A question for the experts. Note I only notice this on NBC HD. NBC seems to be the only problem child.

For programs like L&O SVU or Bionic Woman I noticed what is potential ghosting or motion blur. Not sure of the right terminology to tell you the truth. A good description would be if a pitcher threw a baseball you might see 2 or 3 baseballs simultaneously with the "oldest" being the least visible. Note I'm not talking about a comet trail.

My system comprises of the A3000, TWC, and SA8300 HD-DVR. Not I also saw the same symptom OTA for NBC.

Attached is a still pause from the DVR. This is during a camera pan and the lady's head can be seen twice. One faintly visible outline of a head and the current image.

Note though with NBC programs like the Today Show, Nightly News, or Leno I don't see any of this blur/ghosting. Of the three NBC nightime shows I watch (SVU, Bionic, and Heroes), I think Bionic is the worst offender and Heroes the least.

Finally, other HD programming from ABC, CBS, FOX, HDNet, etc seem fine. So any ideas why this might occur with NBC HD

what are you Motion enhancer settings?
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post #389 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by joevfx View Post

what are you Motion enhancer settings?

ME is usually set to Standard. I've also tried OFF and High; same result. Cinemotion set to off and MN is off.....

Also forgot to mention that Blu-Ray is a-ok just like the other channels (CW, ABC, FOX, CBS, HDNet).
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post #390 of 4486 Old 10-11-2007, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by merlintl View Post

ME is usually set to Standard. I've also tried OFF and High; same result. Cinemotion set to off and MN is off.....

Also forgot to mention that Blu-Ray is a-ok just like the other channels (CW, ABC, FOX, CBS, HDNet).

If you don't see it on any of the other channels/sources (check a channel with the same resolution, I'm not sure what NBC is) then it is likely just something with the channel and there is nothing you can do about it. I can't think of a reason why the problem would only show up on one channel if it was being caused by the TV.

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