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post #91 of 4486 Old 09-28-2007, 06:13 PM
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I've noticed this with my CineMotion settings and Motion Enhancer also. ME doesn't seem to have any affect on the picture when CM is turned off, but when I turn CM on the motion becomes ultra smooth.

What I don't understand is why it seems to affect my blu-ray movies and regular DVDs the same way. The manual states that CM performs reverse 3:2 pulldown, so wouldn't this setting not be needed for true 24p blu-ray playback? I am outputting the blu-ray at 24p with a ps3 and I still don't get the fluid motion unless I turn CM on. Do I have something set up incorrectly or am I just misunderstanding how the technology works? The CM seems to add in artifacts on the edges of fast moving images also, but that could be due to a combination of CM and one of my other settings, I haven't determined if CM alone is the cause of that yet.

Does anyone have an idea of what might be happening here? Has anyone been able to achieve that ultra fluid motion on a 24p feed without CineMotion turned on?

Let me preface this with the fact that it may be entirely wrong and is based on my understanding of CineMotion.

As far as I know, CineMotion only deals with material that needs a pulldown. When the A3000 is fed a 24p signal, no 3:2 pulldown is necessary and CineMotion shouldn't do anything at all, even if it is on. 3:2 pulldown is only necessary when the disc contains 24p material which needs to be converted to 29.97 fps. This has always been the case until recently because all TV's used 29.97 fps (it is the NTSC standard).

The Motion Enhancer/Naturalizer is a different story. I don't think anyone really understands exactly what it does. Lets say that the A3000 simply displays each 24p frame 5 times each to achieve its 120 Hz refresh. Motion Enhancer/Naturalizer could do a lot of different things with those repeated frames, including interpolate with respect to time in an effort to make the motion more fluid. I don't know if this is feasible, but it is possible. Again, I don't think anyone really understands what these algorithms do yet.


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post #92 of 4486 Old 09-28-2007, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

Let me preface this with the fact that it may be entirely wrong and is based on my understanding of CineMotion.

As far as I know, CineMotion only deals with material that needs a pulldown. When the A3000 is fed a 24p signal, no 3:2 pulldown is necessary and CineMotion shouldn't do anything at all, even if it is on. 3:2 pulldown is only necessary when the disc contains 24p material which needs to be converted to 29.97 fps. This has always been the case until recently because all TV's used 29.97 fps (it is the NTSC standard).

The Motion Enhancer/Naturalizer is a different story. I don't think anyone really understands exactly what it does. Lets say that the A3000 simply displays each 24p frame 5 times each to achieve its 120 Hz refresh. Motion Enhancer/Naturalizer could do a lot of different things with those repeated frames, including interpolate with respect to time in an effort to make the motion more fluid. I don't know if this is feasible, but it is possible. Again, I don't think anyone really understands what these algorithms do yet.

Thanks for the reply hwjohn. Your explanation of CineMotion was what I understood it to be as well. That's why I'm confused when I find that it does seem to do something during 24p blu-ray playback even though it should not. With motion enhancer set to high to exaggerate the effect, turning CineMotion on and off makes a huge difference during my 24p blu-ray playback and like you said, it shouldn't do anything at all. In fact, for me these settings seem to impact 24p blu-ray and DVD in exactly the same way, and leads me to question whether the A3000 is indeed displaying 24p properly (or perhaps if the playstation 3 is outputting it properly). Anyone else with a 24p blu-ray player notice something similar?
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post #93 of 4486 Old 09-28-2007, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

Let me preface this with the fact that it may be entirely wrong and is based on my understanding of CineMotion.

As far as I know, CineMotion only deals with material that needs a pulldown. When the A3000 is fed a 24p signal, no 3:2 pulldown is necessary and CineMotion shouldn't do anything at all, even if it is on. 3:2 pulldown is only necessary when the disc contains 24p material which needs to be converted to 29.97 fps. This has always been the case until recently because all TV's used 29.97 fps (it is the NTSC standard).

The Motion Enhancer/Naturalizer is a different story. I don't think anyone really understands exactly what it does. Lets say that the A3000 simply displays each 24p frame 5 times each to achieve its 120 Hz refresh. Motion Enhancer/Naturalizer could do a lot of different things with those repeated frames, including interpolate with respect to time in an effort to make the motion more fluid. I don't know if this is feasible, but it is possible. Again, I don't think anyone really understands what these algorithms do yet.

soemthign is fishy about that though, if that was the case sicne the TV can display at 24, why would it even need a 3:2 pulldown setting?
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post #94 of 4486 Old 09-28-2007, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by joevfx View Post

soemthign is fishy about that though, if that was the case sicne the TV can display at 24, why would it even need a 3:2 pulldown setting?

The display can accept a 24 hz progressive signal but it can not display at 24hz. These displays have a fixed display frequency of 120 hz. You need the 3:2 pull down because some of us are still using standard cd players that put out 60 hz signals. The 3:2 pulldown is still needed for properly displaying interlaced signals of film content that was recorded at 24 frames per second.

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post #95 of 4486 Old 09-28-2007, 09:06 PM
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The manual says that when using CineMotion on Auto2 the Motion Enhancer setting is ignored...

I have no idea why that is. The manual and the on-screen menu also have conflicting info on the CineMotion settings (the manual metions film and sports programs, while the on-screen menu talks about bright or dim room lighting..... ??)

I'd love to have a Sony tech explain exactly what the Motion Enhancer and/or CineMotion does, and exactly how 60hz and 24hz signals are converted to 120hz by this set.

About the only thing I think I've figured out is that "Motion Naturalizer" is the "Dark Frame Insertion" since it seems to make the picture flicker.

The rest is still a mystery to me.
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post #96 of 4486 Old 09-29-2007, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by donb1948 View Post

The display can accept a 24 hz progressive signal but it can not display at 24hz. These displays have a fixed display frequency of 120 hz. You need the 3:2 pull down because some of us are still using standard cd players that put out 60 hz signals. The 3:2 pulldown is still needed for properly displaying interlaced signals of film content that was recorded at 24 frames per second.


1. film content that was reconrded at 24 is put on the disc at 24, it is not interlaced.

2. if the tv can do 120hz cant it display 24z sicne its a multiply of 5, just liek teh mitsubishi tv does.

3. plus i read the tv is acheaving 24fps by doin black frame insertion , thats what the true 24p sticker means,

so again why does it need cinamotion to play back 24p
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post #97 of 4486 Old 09-29-2007, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by joevfx View Post

1. film content that was reconrded at 24 is put on the disc at 24, it is not interlaced.

2. if the tv can do 120hz cant it display 24z sicne its a multiply of 5, just liek teh mitsubishi tv does.

3. plus i read the tv is acheaving 24fps by doin black frame insertion , thats what the true 24p sticker means,

so again why does it need cinamotion to play back 24p

If you input 24 fps, it does five frames as you suggest.

It does not achieve 24 fps by inserting black frames...that is the motion naturalizer option that inserts black frames to make it look more like a movie at the theatre. Most people don't like the flicker achieved and don't use it.

Cinemotion is a REVERSE 3:2 pulldown that is applied to data that has had 3:2 pulldown applied to it in a conversion process when going between film and video. Cinemotion is intended to remove the artifacts that resulted in the original conversion so that the display looks as it originally did. Be a lot simpler if we could get video and film on the same track.
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post #98 of 4486 Old 09-29-2007, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by joevfx View Post

1. film content that was reconrded at 24 is put on the disc at 24, it is not interlaced.

Yes, for you guys with the latest and greatest high definition format disks and players, but what about us folks still with standard dvd players. The film content on a standard dvd has been processed so that it can be shown on an interlaced display. In order to show the material on a digital, fixed pixel display, we need the 3:2 pull down to undo the processing that was used to enable display of the film content on the interlaced device.

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2. if the tv can do 120hz cant it display 24z sicne its a multiply of 5, just liek teh mitsubishi tv does.

Absolutely possible, if the material is on the dvd is actually 1080p@24hz, which is the case for Blu-Ray, but not the case for a standard dvd.

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Originally Posted by joevfx View Post

3. plus i read the tv is acheaving 24fps by doin black frame insertion , thats what the true 24p sticker means,

I have read speculation that the display is either doing a 5:5 pull down (which I read is optimum) or blalck frame insertiion to display the 1080p@24hz content at 1080p@120hz, but no one had a definitive answer.

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so again why does it need cinamotion to play back 24p

Don't know. If hwjohn is correct in his explanation (and I have no to reason to not believe him), CineMotion should not be needed for playback of BluRay 1080p@24hz content, assuming a 5:5 pull down is used (which we are assuming). CineMotion could be needed (or useful) if either we are wrong and the display is not doing a 5:5 pulldown or as you (or someone else) have suggested, the player is not outputting 1080p@24hz.

Here is a bit of pure conjecture, meaning there is no basis in fact except that I have seen it happen before: What if the effect that the CineMotion control has on the playback of 1080p@24hz material is purely coincidental. What if the system designers assumed that when ever 1080p@24hz material was being input, the Cinemotion controls would be off. I had this situation with a Denon DVD player. I complained that a certain control had an impact on a digital signal when it was not suppose to. They told me," Doh! Why do you have it on when outputting a digital signal?"

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post #99 of 4486 Old 09-29-2007, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by donb1948 View Post

Yes, for you guys with the latest and greatest high definition format disks and players, but what about us folks still with standard dvd players. The film content on a standard dvd has been processed so that it can be shown on an interlaced display. In order to show the material on a digital, fixed pixel display, we need the 3:2 pull down to undo the processing that was used to enable display of the film content on the interlaced device.

Absolutely possible, if the material is on the dvd is actually 1080p@24hz, which is the case for Blu-Ray, but not the case for a standard dvd.

I have read speculation that the display is either doing a 5:5 pull down (which I read is optimum) or blalck frame insertiion to display the 1080p@24hz content at 1080p@120hz, but no one had a definitive answer.

Don't know. If hwjohn is correct in his explanation (and I have no to reason to not believe him), CineMotion should not be needed for playback of BluRay 1080p@24hz content, assuming a 5:5 pull down is used (which we are assuming). CineMotion could be needed (or useful) if either we are wrong and the display is not doing a 5:5 pulldown or as you (or someone else) have suggested, the player is not outputting 1080p@24hz.

Here is a bit of pure conjecture, meaning there is no basis in fact except that I have seen it happen before: What if the effect that the CineMotion control has on the playback of 1080p@24hz material is purely coincidental. What if the system designers assumed that when ever 1080p@24hz material was being input, the Cinemotion controls would be off. I had this situation with a Denon DVD player. I complained that a certain control had an impact on a digital signal when it was not suppose to. They told me," Doh! Why do you have it on when outputting a digital signal?"

the problem with that theary though is, soemone tested playign abck 1080/24 with cinimotion off and it looked all studdery. then he turned it back on and it was nice a smooth again. the way sony is stating there 24p play back with the words "true 24p" is soudnign liek they arent doing any conversion to it whats so ever. if it comes in at 24 then it is passed though with out beign touched.

and about standard def dvds. are you sure they arent 24fps? cuase if they were already converted to 30 then dvd players and tvs woudltn have to do and 2:3 to it sicne its already 30. i think standard def dvds are at 24 thast why the tvs or dvd plays have a conversion processes to covnert it to 30, since before now tvs could only play back 30fps footage.

see i work for a digital production company. when we get shots in for commercials they were eather shot at 30 ( and dont need to be converted) or shot at 24 and need to have 2:3 added to them before they went out to broadcast since thats what tvs displayed.
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post #100 of 4486 Old 09-29-2007, 12:47 PM
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When Sony says True, they mean they don't do any interpolation schemes...they simply do 5, 5, ,5 ,5.....

Motion Enhancer appears to interpolate frame to frame.

Cinemotion is the reverse pull down to counteract the 2:3 pull down applied to 24 to get them to broadcast 30 fps as you state in your last sentence.

As Donb1948 stated above, it may be a software process that can be left on during 24 fps playback, but, that does not mean it is required...or even should be used...even if you think it looks smoother.

There can easily be judder in 24 fps depending upon camera pan speed and lens settings. Covering it up may be more appealing to your eye..but, it does not mean there is a fault in the 24 fps playback.
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post #101 of 4486 Old 09-29-2007, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Strawdawg View Post

When Sony says True, they mean they don't do any interpolation schemes...they simply do 5, 5, ,5 ,5.....

Motion Enhancer appears to interpolate frame to frame.

Cinemotion is the reverse pull down to counteract the 2:3 pull down applied to 24 to get them to broadcast 30 fps as you state in your last sentence.

As Donb1948 stated above, it may be a software process that can be left on during 24 fps playback, but, that does not mean it is required...or even should be used...even if you think it looks smoother.

There can easily be judder in 24 fps depending upon camera pan speed and lens settings. Covering it up may be more appealing to your eye..but, it does not mean there is a fault in the 24 fps playback.


yeah but if they are not using cinamotion on 24p signals, why is there a picture difference when tis turned on or off?
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post #102 of 4486 Old 09-29-2007, 01:07 PM
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here is what cinimotion does - "Automatically detects film based content and aplies a revers 3:2 pulldown process. moving picture will appear cleaner and more natural looking.

Auto 1- for standard use and to provide smoother picture movement

Auto 2 - picture movement will be simialr to the original film"


Automatically detects film based content? why would it do anythign to film based content if it can display at 24? there definition of 24p tru cinima says it plays back film based content without any additional conversion processes. but the the cinamotion says it convert film based content. so what gives?
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post #103 of 4486 Old 09-29-2007, 02:51 PM
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I believe the key is the term "automatically". Far as I know there is no encoding on the signal to differentiate 24 or 30 fps frame rate. Once signal comes down the pipeline, there must be some algorithm that looks at the data and decides if it was film based or not. Or, there simply may be an error that does not turn off the software when the data is clearly 24fps as from a bluray.

I suspect we are trying to create a theory when none is needed If concerned, give Sony Tech a call and try to wrestle an answer from them. No one will dispute that documentation is less than clear, nor, less than comprehensive...that is for sure!
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post #104 of 4486 Old 09-29-2007, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by joevfx View Post

and about standard def dvds. are you sure they arent 24fps? cuase if they were already converted to 30 then dvd players and tvs woudltn have to do and 2:3 to it sicne its already 30. i think standard def dvds are at 24 thast why the tvs or dvd plays have a conversion processes to covnert it to 30, since before now tvs could only play back 30fps footage.

I believe Strawdawg has address everything else in the post except this... No standard dvds are not at 24p. In reality, "24p" has no meaning in regard to how the data is recorded on the disk. Remember, standard dvd players were originally designed to output a 480i at 60hz signal because all tvs were designed to display an interlaced signal with a 60hz refresh rate. If a movie were recorded at 24hz (which on film is essentially progressive mode), then it had to be processed (telecined) so that it could be displayed at 60hz as an interlaced signal. This processing is what leads to the 3,2 arrangement of frames on the dvd. When the progressive sets (fixed pixel and refresh rates) came along, this presented a problem in that the signal on the dvd must now be reconverted back to be displayed as a progressive signal (either by the dvd player or the TV). This is where the reverse telecine 3:2 pull down comes in.

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post #105 of 4486 Old 09-29-2007, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by joevfx View Post

why would it do anythign to film based content if it can display at 24? there definition of 24p tru cinima says it plays back film based content without any additional conversion processes. but the the cinamotion says it convert film based content. so what gives?

Because it's for 1080i or 480i TV sources where the film based content has been converted to 60i (60hz interlaced) by 3:2 pulldown - also known as tele-cine process.. "Cinemotion" should apply a reverse 3:2 pulldown, or "inverse telecine / IVTC" to re-create the (progressive) frames at 24hz.

Then the A3000 converts that to 120hz... somehow (120 = 24 x 5)
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post #106 of 4486 Old 09-29-2007, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by walk View Post

Because it's for 1080i or 480i TV sources where the film based content has been converted to 60i (60hz interlaced) by 3:2 pulldown - also known as tele-cine process.. "Cinemotion" should apply a reverse 3:2 pulldown, or "inverse telecine / IVTC" to re-create the (progressive) frames at 24hz.

Then the A3000 converts that to 120hz... somehow (120 = 24 x 5)

hmm but the definition that sony gives for 24p tru cinima is that there is no conversion done to the signal
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post #107 of 4486 Old 09-29-2007, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Strawdawg View Post

I believe the key is the term "automatically". Far as I know there is no encoding on the signal to differentiate 24 or 30 fps frame rate. Once signal comes down the pipeline, there must be some algorithm that looks at the data and decides if it was film based or not. Or, there simply may be an error that does not turn off the software when the data is clearly 24fps as from a bluray.

I suspect we are trying to create a theory when none is needed If concerned, give Sony Tech a call and try to wrestle an answer from them. No one will dispute that documentation is less than clear, nor, less than comprehensive...that is for sure!

if it is "automatically" detecting film based content and doin a conversion to it, isnt 24p blu rays film based content?
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post #108 of 4486 Old 09-29-2007, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Vetkin View Post

I've noticed this with my CineMotion settings and Motion Enhancer also. ME doesn't seem to have any affect on the picture when CM is turned off, but when I turn CM on the motion becomes ultra smooth.

What I don't understand is why it seems to affect my blu-ray movies and regular DVDs the same way. The manual states that CM performs reverse 3:2 pulldown, so wouldn't this setting not be needed for true 24p blu-ray playback? I am outputting the blu-ray at 24p with a ps3 and I still don't get the fluid motion unless I turn CM on. Do I have something set up incorrectly or am I just misunderstanding how the technology works? The CM seems to add in artifacts on the edges of fast moving images also, but that could be due to a combination of CM and one of my other settings, I haven't determined if CM alone is the cause of that yet.

Does anyone have an idea of what might be happening here? Has anyone been able to achieve that ultra fluid motion on a 24p feed without CineMotion turned on?

what movie or blu ray disc were you playing back that had a motion issue with cinamotion off?
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post #109 of 4486 Old 09-30-2007, 12:19 AM
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This may help a little:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p.

donb1948, progressive DVD's on an HDTV do not have to do 3:2 pulldown or reverse telecine if I read correctly. They only have to do that on a standard NTSC tv.

I also don't believe the 24p to 120hz on the A3000 is done by multiplying 24x5. It makes sense, but like so many others have said why does Sony or others comment that it does it directly with no conversion.
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post #110 of 4486 Old 09-30-2007, 01:08 AM
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Isn't this a settings and tweak thread ?? Just wondering, because all this talk belongs in the "OWNERS THREAD" ...
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post #111 of 4486 Old 09-30-2007, 06:27 AM
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Isn't this a settings and tweak thread ?? Just wondering, because all this talk belongs in the "OWNERS THREAD" ...


I thought Cinemotion was a setting? You can turn it on and off. I guess some thought it belonged here
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post #112 of 4486 Old 09-30-2007, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

This may help a little:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p.


I also don't believe the 24p to 120hz on the A3000 is done by multiplying 24x5. It makes sense, but like so many others have said why does Sony or others comment that it does it directly with no conversion.


24 x 5 is about as direct a conversion as one can get.
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post #113 of 4486 Old 09-30-2007, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

donb1948, progressive DVD's on an HDTV do not have to do 3:2 pulldown or reverse telecine if I read correctly. They only have to do that on a standard NTSC tv.

Yes, that's partially correct. If the display device or source takes the high def disk content (1080p@24hz) content to a 120hz display refresh rate using the 5:5 pulldown then 3:2 reverse telecine is not needed. But, there are other ways to get to the 120hz refresh rate that would require the reverse 3:2 telecine. Also, in addition to the NTSC broadcast of telecined film stock, 3:2 pull down is needed for standard dvds containing material that was telecined processed from 24hz film stock.

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Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

I also don't believe the 24p to 120hz on the A3000 is done by multiplying 24x5. It makes sense, but like so many others have said why does Sony or others comment that it does it directly with no conversion.

I have not seen any Sony documentation that says the display does no processing to play the 1080p@24hz high def dvd content at a 120hz refreah rate. It's my belief, that folks are just interpreting the specs that way. The display might not do a 3:2 pull down to convert to 30hz or 60hz before duplicating frames to get to a 120hz refresh rate, but it must do something. And of the alternatives, the so-called 5:5 pulldown would be optimum.

The only way the display could show the 1080p@24hz content without some sort of "processing" would require the display to have a 24hz refresh rate. Computer monitors have been traditionally designed to operate at multiple refresh rates, but not TVs. We are stuck in this case with 120hz, which is not bad at all.

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post #114 of 4486 Old 09-30-2007, 07:12 AM
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In deference to saylor and others who do not "enjoy" this exchange on the dynamics of what's happening with the 120hz refresh rates, I'll make this final post and then quit.

First, for an excellent discussion of interlaced/progressive conversions and why it's needed, take a look at this article: Film-to-Video Conversion Scroll down the page to where the background changes color. That's where the good stuff starts.

Also, I keep a database of interesting stuff I come across on the web. Here are parts of three posts, I believe by "walk," that I saved concerning the display of 24hz-based material at 120hz. 5:5 pulldown and a lot of other stuff is covered. In my opinion, the information is correct. But be aware, it is a combination of fact and speculation in regard to how the displays actually work. Here are the three original posts (by walk?):

You guys are actually doing the math backward. It is mostly a matter of semantics, but here is how it actually works....
The 120Hz frequency is actually 5 times faster than the 24Hz frequency. You're not displaying a 24Hz frame 5 times to reach 120Hz, you're actually displaying a 120Hz frame 5 times to reach a 24Hz refresh. When you think about it backward, you can end up confusing yourself.
A 60Hz refresh must display one frame 3 times and the next frame 2 times in the same time it takes to display 2 frames of 24Hz. That is where the term 3:2 cadence comes from. If you have 24Hz frames that are called A, B, C, and D, the native 24Hz would be displayed like this A B C D. The 60Hz display (being 2.5 times faster) will display A A A B B C C C D D (3:2 cadence). With the 60Hz refresh, frames A and C would get equal display time whereas B and D would only get 2/3 of the time displayed. This causes judder. A 120Hz frame rate would look like this... A A A A A B B B B B C C C C C D D D D D. This is where the term 5:5 cadence comes from. In the time it takes to display 2 of the 24Hz frames, each of those frames would have been displayed 5 times at 120Hz. Each frame would get equal time. In 120Hz, each frame would get equally displayed, thus smoother motion.
Now, if you have black frame insertion, you might have something like this with 120Hz.... A A A _ _ B B B _ _ C C C _ _ D D D _ _. The blanks would represent a black screen and are placed there to create a more natural motion, like old film projectors. Motion enhancing might look like this A A A AB AB B B B BC BC C C C CD CD D D D DE DE... and so on where the double letters would represent an artificially generated frame. You can see where you might get some blur with the motion enhancing mode.
I know that most of you know this stuff, just trying the help new people understand it better. When we speak of converting a 24Hz signal to 120Hz, we know what we are talking about, we actually say it backward because it is easier to use those terms. What is actually done is what is described above, ie. convert a 120Hz refresh to make it look like a 24Hz refresh. Keep that in mind when you read these threads.

Pasted from

A few other things. A previous poster asked about inverse telecine and what the TV would do when it got back to 24p....
What happens when a video processor (VP) does inverse telecine is that it must recognize a 3:2 cadence (A A A B B C C C D D at 60Hz) and convert it back to its natural 1:1 cadence (A B C D at 24Hz).
This set is a 120Hz set and it can only function at 120Hz. If it is able to recognize the 3:2 cadence and convert back to 24Hz, the set would display a 5:5 cadence. If it does not recognize the telecine (3:2 cadence), it would just display the 60Hz signal twice and you'd have (A A A A A A B B B B C C C C C C D D D D) a 6:4 cadence. This would look much like the 3:2 cadence I guess.
This set doesn't have a 24Hz refresh, but it is compatible with a 24Hz refresh (24p). Sets that just double the 60Hz signal are not compatible with 24Hz refresh in the way the Sony is and still have judder due to 6:4 cadence. It remains to be seen if the Sonys will perform the inverse telecine.
Broadcast TV is sent out at 60Hz. For a movie with a 24Hz refresh, that means they have to perform telecine (3:2) on the signal to be compatible with the 60Hz signal before it is sent out. The TV (if it is 120Hz) can either double the 60Hz frame (giving a 6:4 cadence), or perform inverse telecine and give you a 5:5 cadence. You can see why the latter is preferred. Some VP's will perform the inverse telecine (mostly high end units costing thousands, but perhaps the Onkyo 905 or the new Denons AVR's can).

Pasted from


While I'm at it, I thought I'd throw out a few more things. Not everything out there is filmed at 24Hz (24p from now on). Some things are filmed at 60Hz (60p). Movies and some TV series (eg. 24) are filmed at 24p as this is supposed to give you a very natural feeling of movement. Here is where I get a bit fuzzy... I believe sports are filmed at 30 or 60p. This is where the math starts to change a little. Most of the previous sets were 60Hz refresh sets and could display a 30p or 60p picture natively without giving you judder. The good thing about a 120Hz display is that, not only can it display a 24p without judder, it can also display the 30 and 60p images without judder as 24, 30, and 60 are all multiples of 120. ie. each frame can be displayed an equal amount of time on a 120Hz set. The 30p would give a 4:4 cadence and the 60p would give a 2:2 cadence.
If for instance, you had a 72Hz display, that would display the 24p picture better than the 60Hz would, but it would reek havoc with the 30p and 60p cadences. As long as they don't start throwing 50p or some other weird refresh at us, we'll be alright with the 120Hz displays.

Pasted from

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post #115 of 4486 Old 09-30-2007, 12:59 PM
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Excellent post donb1948. You and StrawDawg have explained everything beautifully... wish I had that kind of patience and grammar


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post #116 of 4486 Old 09-30-2007, 01:28 PM
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Excellent post donb1948, I think what you said makes me happy I have this TV.

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post #117 of 4486 Old 09-30-2007, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

This may help a little:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p.

donb1948, progressive DVD's on an HDTV do not have to do 3:2 pulldown or reverse telecine if I read correctly. They only have to do that on a standard NTSC tv.

I also don't believe the 24p to 120hz on the A3000 is done by multiplying 24x5. It makes sense, but like so many others have said why does Sony or others comment that it does it directly with no conversion.

24x5 is no conversion
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post #118 of 4486 Old 09-30-2007, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donb1948 View Post

Yes, that's partially correct. If the display device or source takes the high def disk content (1080p@24hz) content to a 120hz display refresh rate using the 5:5 pulldown then 3:2 reverse telecine is not needed. But, there are other ways to get to the 120hz refresh rate that would require the reverse 3:2 telecine. Also, in addition to the NTSC broadcast of telecined film stock, 3:2 pull down is needed for standard dvds containing material that was telecined processed from 24hz film stock.

I have not seen any Sony documentation that says the display does no processing to play the 1080p@24hz high def dvd content at a 120hz refreah rate. It's my belief, that folks are just interpreting the specs that way. The display might not do a 3:2 pull down to convert to 30hz or 60hz before duplicating frames to get to a 120hz refresh rate, but it must do something. And of the alternatives, the so-called 5:5 pulldown would be optimum.

also the mitubishi 833 accepts 1920x1080@24hz, 1920x1080@30hz, and 1920x1080@60hz. isnt that multiply refresh rates? im sure the Sony does that same.

The only way the display could show the 1080p@24hz content without some sort of "processing" would require the display to have a 24hz refresh rate. Computer monitors have been traditionally designed to operate at multiple refresh rates, but not TVs. We are stuck in this case with 120hz, which is not bad at all.


read Sonys definition of "24p true cinama

"24p True Cinema
Movies are filmed at 24 frames per second (fps) and many prime time TV programs are video taped at 24p. Sony's BDP-S1 Blu-ray® player wisely takes advantage of this by including 24p output capability on selected BRAVIA models. The benefit? You can watch movies in natural, cinematic motion, the way they are seen at the cinema. Every single frame of the movie can now be seen without using additional video processing to convert film-based images to video reproduction. Additionally, 24p True Cinema can be used along with Motionflow 120Hz technology for outstanding fluid motion beyond what you would typically see at the cinema. Once you experience 24p video it will be hard to view video without it."
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post #119 of 4486 Old 09-30-2007, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donb1948 View Post

In deference to saylor and others who do not "enjoy" this exchange on the dynamics of what's happening with the 120hz refresh rates, I'll make this final post and then quit.

First, for an excellent discussion of interlaced/progressive conversions and why it's needed, take a look at this article: Film-to-Video Conversion Scroll down the page to where the background changes color. That's where the good stuff starts.

Also, I keep a database of interesting stuff I come across on the web. Here are parts of three posts, I believe by "walk," that I saved concerning the display of 24hz-based material at 120hz. 5:5 pulldown and a lot of other stuff is covered. In my opinion, the information is correct. But be aware, it is a combination of fact and speculation in regard to how the displays actually work. Here are the three original posts (by walk?):

You guys are actually doing the math backward. It is mostly a matter of semantics, but here is how it actually works....
The 120Hz frequency is actually 5 times faster than the 24Hz frequency. You're not displaying a 24Hz frame 5 times to reach 120Hz, you're actually displaying a 120Hz frame 5 times to reach a 24Hz refresh. When you think about it backward, you can end up confusing yourself.
A 60Hz refresh must display one frame 3 times and the next frame 2 times in the same time it takes to display 2 frames of 24Hz. That is where the term 3:2 cadence comes from. If you have 24Hz frames that are called A, B, C, and D, the native 24Hz would be displayed like this A B C D. The 60Hz display (being 2.5 times faster) will display A A A B B C C C D D (3:2 cadence). With the 60Hz refresh, frames A and C would get equal display time whereas B and D would only get 2/3 of the time displayed. This causes judder. A 120Hz frame rate would look like this... A A A A A B B B B B C C C C C D D D D D. This is where the term 5:5 cadence comes from. In the time it takes to display 2 of the 24Hz frames, each of those frames would have been displayed 5 times at 120Hz. Each frame would get equal time. In 120Hz, each frame would get equally displayed, thus smoother motion.
Now, if you have black frame insertion, you might have something like this with 120Hz.... A A A _ _ B B B _ _ C C C _ _ D D D _ _. The blanks would represent a black screen and are placed there to create a more natural motion, like old film projectors. Motion enhancing might look like this A A A AB AB B B B BC BC C C C CD CD D D D DE DE... and so on where the double letters would represent an artificially generated frame. You can see where you might get some blur with the motion enhancing mode.
I know that most of you know this stuff, just trying the help new people understand it better. When we speak of converting a 24Hz signal to 120Hz, we know what we are talking about, we actually say it backward because it is easier to use those terms. What is actually done is what is described above, ie. convert a 120Hz refresh to make it look like a 24Hz refresh. Keep that in mind when you read these threads.

Pasted from

A few other things. A previous poster asked about inverse telecine and what the TV would do when it got back to 24p....
What happens when a video processor (VP) does inverse telecine is that it must recognize a 3:2 cadence (A A A B B C C C D D at 60Hz) and convert it back to its natural 1:1 cadence (A B C D at 24Hz).
This set is a 120Hz set and it can only function at 120Hz. If it is able to recognize the 3:2 cadence and convert back to 24Hz, the set would display a 5:5 cadence. If it does not recognize the telecine (3:2 cadence), it would just display the 60Hz signal twice and you'd have (A A A A A A B B B B C C C C C C D D D D) a 6:4 cadence. This would look much like the 3:2 cadence I guess.
This set doesn't have a 24Hz refresh, but it is compatible with a 24Hz refresh (24p). Sets that just double the 60Hz signal are not compatible with 24Hz refresh in the way the Sony is and still have judder due to 6:4 cadence. It remains to be seen if the Sonys will perform the inverse telecine.
Broadcast TV is sent out at 60Hz. For a movie with a 24Hz refresh, that means they have to perform telecine (3:2) on the signal to be compatible with the 60Hz signal before it is sent out. The TV (if it is 120Hz) can either double the 60Hz frame (giving a 6:4 cadence), or perform inverse telecine and give you a 5:5 cadence. You can see why the latter is preferred. Some VP's will perform the inverse telecine (mostly high end units costing thousands, but perhaps the Onkyo 905 or the new Denons AVR's can).

Pasted from


While I'm at it, I thought I'd throw out a few more things. Not everything out there is filmed at 24Hz (24p from now on). Some things are filmed at 60Hz (60p). Movies and some TV series (eg. 24) are filmed at 24p as this is supposed to give you a very natural feeling of movement. Here is where I get a bit fuzzy... I believe sports are filmed at 30 or 60p. This is where the math starts to change a little. Most of the previous sets were 60Hz refresh sets and could display a 30p or 60p picture natively without giving you judder. The good thing about a 120Hz display is that, not only can it display a 24p without judder, it can also display the 30 and 60p images without judder as 24, 30, and 60 are all multiples of 120. ie. each frame can be displayed an equal amount of time on a 120Hz set. The 30p would give a 4:4 cadence and the 60p would give a 2:2 cadence.
If for instance, you had a 72Hz display, that would display the 24p picture better than the 60Hz would, but it would reek havoc with the 30p and 60p cadences. As long as they don't start throwing 50p or some other weird refresh at us, we'll be alright with the 120Hz displays.

Pasted from


they way you are describing it though it needs a conversion done to the 24hz signal. Sony is saying there is no film to video conversion done on the 24p signal
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post #120 of 4486 Old 09-30-2007, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joevfx View Post

they way you are describing it though it needs a conversion done to the 24hz signal. Sony is saying there is no film to video conversion done on the 24p signal

There is no need for a conversion as the set accepts the 24 fps input (if you have media that has 24 fps encoded and a source that will transmit 24 fps) and converts it to 120hz....but, I think if you turn on Cinemotion, it will assume the input signal has been converted to 30 fps and will try to remove any roughness in the data whether it is conversion artifacts, or not. It does this automatically if Cinemotion is switched ON. IF Cinemotion was truly automatic, one would not have to switch it on.

This attempt at reverse pulldown is what gives the data a smoother look. Is it correct? No, it is smoother, like many of the other signal manipulations that so many leave off. If you like it, use it...it is optional

Perhaps, you can get a more correct answer from Sony, I don't have any further to offer, either
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