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post #181 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by tlbowerts View Post

Joe,
I'm with Hughmc, I believe your right.

if im correct, im assumign you need to have it set to on, to be able to do 24p doin the 5 by 5 thing. this would also explain why peopel are seeign a difference with 24p footage when they turn the reverse 3:2 pulldown (cinemotion) on and off. if the motion enhance isnt on, then the TV is revertign back to 60hz, which means if you are watchign a 24p movie you need to have cinemotion on to do the reverse pulldown on it so it plays back smoothly. if you have motion enhancer on, then it will play back the 24p footage with the 5 by 5 thign everyone talks about, hence not needign a reverse pulldown done to it. this is why the manual says this about cinemotion

Motion Enchancer does not affect film-based content in cinemotion Auto 2 mode.

so if you have cinimotion in auto 2 mode i think its disabling the 120hz motion enhancer, hence needing to do a reverse opulldown on 24p footage. cinemotion Auto1 mode is for standard use and will prolly disable itself when seeing a 24p source if you have the motion enhancer on. make sense?
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post #182 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 10:42 AM
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if im correct, im assumign you need to have it set to on, to be able to do 24p doin the 5 by 5 thing. this would also explain why peopel are seeign a difference with 24p footage when they turn the reverse 3:2 pulldown (cinemotion) on and off. if the motion enhance isnt on, then the TV is revertign back to 60hz, which means if you are watchign a 24p movie you need to have cinemotion on to do the reverse pulldown on it so it plays back smoothly. if you have motion enhancer on, then it will play back the 24p footage with the 5 by 5 thign everyone talks about, hence not needign a reverse pulldown done to it. this is why the manual says this about cinemotion

Motion Enchancer does not affect film-based content in cinemotion Auto 2 mode.

so if you have cinimotion in auto 2 mode i think its disabling the 120hz motion enhancer, hence needing to do a reverse opulldown on 24p footage. cinemotion Auto1 mode is for standard use and will prolly disable itself when seeing a 24p source if you have the motion enhancer on. make sense?

Joe,
I believe you might be on to something here. I really wish Sony would have just come out and said something in the Manual about this, it would have saved us a lot of confusion.

The only problem I can see with the theory is that, in general, I don't think people can notice a difference with the Enhancer on vs. Off when CineMotion is off. Let me explain by proposing some tests that some other owners should do just to make sure my eyes arent playing tricks on me. By the current theory we should:

1) Watch 1080p/24 source with Enhancer, Naturalizer, and CineMotion all OFF. This should give us a 60 Hz refresh rate. Use your "BrainRecorder" to remember what this looks like

2) Turn ON Motion Enhancer, with MN and CM still OFF. You should see a more fluid picture due to 120Hz refresh and, hopefully, a 5:5 cadence.

3) With Motion Enhancer still on, turn CM to Auto2. This should kick Motion Enhancer out of the 120Hz mode and back to 60 Hz. You should see something similar to the original video you saw in step 1.

4) Try CM to Auto1 (all others same as step 3). You should hopefully see something like you saw in step 2, since Auto1 (we believe) will not kick out ME.

If we can verify all of this, then you may very well have it right. I personally can't tell a difference between step 1 and 2, and I haven't yet tried 3. Maybe my eyes just aren't sensitive enough to see the difference. The other question I have is why does ME have two settings. If it controls 120hz vs. 60 Hz, it looks like it would either be on or off and not off, standard, or high.

I'll try to call Sony if I get a chance and see if we can get some kind of concrete explanation.


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post #183 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

Joe,
I believe you might be on to something here. I really wish Sony would have just come out and said something in the Manual about this, it would have saved us a lot of confusion.

The only problem I can see with the theory is that, in general, I don't think people can notice a difference with the Enhancer on vs. Off when CineMotion is off. Let me explain by proposing some tests that some other owners should do just to make sure my eyes arent playing tricks on me. By the current theory we should:

1) Watch 1080p/24 source with Enhancer, Naturalizer, and CineMotion all OFF. This should give us a 60 Hz refresh rate. Use your "BrainRecorder" to remember what this looks like

2) Turn ON Motion Enhancer, with MN and CM still OFF. You should see a more fluid picture due to 120Hz refresh and, hopefully, a 5:5 cadence.

3) With Motion Enhancer still on, turn CM to Auto2. This should kick Motion Enhancer out of the 120Hz mode and back to 60 Hz. You should see something similar to the original video you saw in step 1.

4) Try CM to Auto1 (all others same as step 3). You should hopefully see something like you saw in step 2, since Auto1 (we believe) will not kick out ME.

If we can verify all of this, then you may very well have it right. I personally can't tell a difference between step 1 and 2, and I haven't yet tried 3. Maybe my eyes just aren't sensitive enough to see the difference. The other question I have is why does ME have two settings. If it controls 120hz vs. 60 Hz, it looks like it would either be on or off and not off, standard, or high.

I'll try to call Sony if I get a chance and see if we can get some kind of concrete explanation.

are people not seeign a differnec with 24p stuff or dvds? cause if its dvds mayeb they have there dvd player doing the conversion so turing cinemotion on and off wotn do anythign sicne the dvd player is doin it. im not sure though if they arent seeign a difference with 24p stuff

mayeb the have to motion enhcancer settign cause standard is just turnign 120hz on and high is douin some sorta of frame blendign process to make it even more smooth. mayeb thats why they say to turn it off if it causes noticable noise, cause high is some image process its doing. i think its gonan be tough to fidn the best settigns cause you'll have soem stuff you watch which is at 24, some, stuff at 30 ( that wa made with a pulldown) and soem stuff that was actually shot at 30 ( full frames no pulldown) i guess thast where the automatic part of cinemotion kicks in it can tell if the footage was made into 30 with a pulldown and then does th reverse to it.

yeah call Sony, tell them you have a pretty technical question and ask if they can asnweer it or will ahve to sen du up to the second level tech support. the first level will just read the manual back to you. explain to them what we talked about ( with the theory of motion enhancer turning 120hz on and off) and ask them what the best settigns are for 24p stuff. let me know what they say.
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post #184 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 11:18 AM
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With my Toshiba A20 set to 1080/24fps with the motion enhancer on there is a pretty dramatic difference in movements.

I was watching King Kong and it was very smooth, slow and deliberate. Turn it off and everything was reverted back to what I would expect.

Not sure which way I like it...I can say in fast moving sequences I think having it on would be helpful to capture the entirety of what's going on.

I've only had the set for about a day so I need to play around with the different video features more.
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post #185 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by BDP33 View Post

With my Toshiba A20 set to 1080/24fps with the motion enhancer on there is a pretty dramatic difference in movements.

I was watching King Kong and it was very smooth, slow and deliberate. Turn it off and everything was reverted back to what I would expect.

Not sure which way I like it...I can say in fast moving sequences I think having it on would be helpful to capture the entirety of what's going on.

I've only had the set for about a day so I need to play around with the different video features more.

do you have cinemotion on or off when u see the difference with motion enhancer?
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post #186 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 11:33 AM
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I believe I had it on Auto 1. Since I just got the TV yesterday I'm still trying to digest the terminology involved.

I also may have the terminology mixed as well. I do know that movement was definetely deliberate and to me slowed down.

I can check this all out more when I get home. I was planning on watching The Directors Cut of Troy tonight.
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post #187 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saylor View Post

I said it once and I will say it again ...

Isn't this thread for settings and tweaks ?? It was made for "POSTING" settings and tweaks, not for discussing the them. There is another thread for that the "OWNERS THREAD". The funny thing is, all of the stuff you are discussing here is being discussed there and than some.

Don't be afraid, post in the OWNERS THREAD. Leave this thread to "POSTING" settings, Not discussing them.

Have you seen any of the other tweak threads.....no different than what is going on here. Some of the best technical discussion still left on this board is right here. Besides, with something as completely arbitrary as TV settings, there is absolutely no way to post them WITHOUT discussing them. You are asking the impossible.
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post #188 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by brophog View Post

Have you seen any of the other tweak threads.....no different than what is going on here. Some of the best technical discussion still left on this board is right here. Besides, with something as completely arbitrary as TV settings, there is absolutely no way to post them WITHOUT discussing them. You are asking the impossible.

I just wish I could get an answer....
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post #189 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 01:07 PM
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I just wish I could get an answer....

to?
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post #190 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 01:47 PM
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Ok any advice would be greatly appreciated, I have noise grain on my 60". I'm sitting 8 feet away in low light. I have done all the things lowered sharp 15, tried the noise reducer on low and the mpeg noise on low also. Don't know if it is helping or hurting but it is when watching hd cable 1080i sources. I have the picture at 83. Does anyone have like mosquito noise grain from hd cable?
Anyone have any advice as to what to set the drc palette to. I am only asking for sd digital cable which is 480i sources only.


These were my questions that no one got back to me on in dire need of some help....
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post #191 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by aqupunk View Post

Ok any advice would be greatly appreciated, I have noise grain on my 60". I'm sitting 8 feet away in low light. I have done all the things lowered sharp 15, tried the noise reducer on low and the mpeg noise on low also. Don't know if it is helping or hurting but it is when watching hd cable 1080i sources. I have the picture at 83. Does anyone have like mosquito noise grain from hd cable?
Anyone have any advice as to what to set the drc palette to. I am only asking for sd digital cable which is 480i sources only.


These were my questions that no one got back to me on in dire need of some help....

do u have a blu ray player? do u ge the same effect when wating a blu ray movie?
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post #192 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by aqupunk View Post

Ok any advice would be greatly appreciated, I have noise grain on my 60". I'm sitting 8 feet away in low light. I have done all the things lowered sharp 15, tried the noise reducer on low and the mpeg noise on low also. Don't know if it is helping or hurting but it is when watching hd cable 1080i sources. I have the picture at 83. Does anyone have like mosquito noise grain from hd cable?

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Originally Posted by joevfx View Post

do u have a blu ray player? do u ge the same effect when wating a blu ray movie?

Thanks for the response, no effect with blu rays.
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post #193 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 01:58 PM
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Thanks for the response, no effect with blu rays.

then its prolly just noisy broadcast stuff. if its not happenign across the board on everythign u watch ( not happenign with blu ray) then i wouldnt think its the TV. mabe turn the motione enhancer off for boraodcast stuff, i think it creates some noise sometimes.
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post #194 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 02:04 PM
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then its prolly just noisy broadcast stuff. if its not happenign across the board on everythign u watch ( not happenign with blu ray) then i wouldnt think its the TV. mabe turn the motione enhancer off for boraodcast stuff, i think it creates some noise sometimes.

Alright thanks I will give it a try unfortunly I use the same hdmi port for blu rays and cable because of my onkyo 605 reciever pass thru. So the same settings for both.
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post #195 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by aqupunk View Post

Alright thanks I will give it a try unfortunly I use the same hdmi port for blu rays and cable because of my onkyo 605 reciever pass thru. So the same settings for both.

maybe go to cnet and get there A2000 settigns and use them on your set to start out with and tweak it from there.
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post #196 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 02:10 PM
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maybe go to cnet and get there A2000 settigns and use them on your set to start out with and tweak it from there.

Just curious but what are your settings set to?
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post #197 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 02:14 PM
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Well I am posting here since the owners thread was not able to answer all my questions.

Is the PC input just as good on the A3000 as the Samsung HLTxx76s?
Are the primary colors now just as accurate as the Samsung HLTxx76s?

If these prove to be true than I have no good reason to buy the samsung over the a3000.
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post #198 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Joey Cusack View Post

Well I am posting here since the owners thread was not able to answer all my questions.

Is the PC input just as good on the A3000 as the Samsung HLTxx76s?
Are the primary colors now just as accurate as the Samsung HLTxx76s?

If these prove to be true than I have no good reason to buy the samsung over the a3000.

i hear the primary colors are off
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post #199 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by joevfx View Post

i hear the primary colors are off

DANGIT! u can't win!
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post #200 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 04:11 PM
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DANGIT! u can't win!

i,m sure it will be fine once calibrated understand the new sony firware and stuff. right now its new to them.
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post #201 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 07:31 PM
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I tested 300 on Blu-Ray again, with ME set to High and CM on Auto1. I can definetely see what the other guys are talking about, and creepy is the right word. It is really weird. The good news is that I think I know why it is doing it.

I just got off the phone with a level 2 Sony Tech Rep. I got some answers from him, but who knows exactly how accurate they are. He seemed to know his stuff, and he actually knew exactly what I was talking about as he had seen it himself. Here is a summary:

1) A3000 is fixed at 120 Hz. He seemed fairly certain of this.

2) MN is indeed doing black frame insertion as we suspected.

3) From what he could tell me (he didnt know exactly how it worked), ME is some type of frame blending/interpolation algorithm.

4) The "Auto" settings for CM aren't Auto at all. CM evidently has no detection algorithm to tell when it should apply a reverse 3:2 pulldown and when it should not (which is news to me). Evidently, if CM is on it tries to do a reverse 3:2 pulldown on everything, even 1080/24p. You have to decide when to use it and when not to. Auto1 is different from Auto2 in that Auto2 disables ME.

The rep had seen the issue we are describing when having ME turned on with CM to Auto1. He went on to explain that CM and ME interact, and this is by design. The reason we are seeing this weird, creepy, silky smooth picture is because we shouldn't have CM on for 24p playback in the first place. The interaction between ME and CM (which is by design for material that actually needs CM) is what is giving us the creepy picture. This explains why one or the other doesn't necessarily make that big of a difference.

So, long story short, using CM and ME together for 24p playback seems to be incorrect. He verified that some people actually liked the effect, but it seems very "artificial" looking to me.

So, to sum it all up, you are responsible as the user to know when material requires a reverse 3:2 pulldown and tell the A3000 to apply it.

This doesn't leave much material that actually requires CM. A good DVD player or BD/HD DVD player should already apply the reverse 3:2 pulldown before the signal leaves the player. Most of the better ones (such as Oppo) DO have detection algorithms to determine if a reverse 3:2 and they apply it automagically. If you have an older DVD player that does not have reverse 3:2 capability, then you can turn on CM and allow the A3000 to do it.

The other question that remains is cable/sat/OTA material that requires a reverse 3:2 pulldown. I don't know if devices such as my DTV HR20 apply a pulldown or not, so this one is probably dependent on what device (if any) you have supplying the signal. We do know that CM will attempt a pulldown on HD signals as well as SD. This is evident from the Blu-Ray problems as well as the problem CM causes with the ticker on ESPN HD. You will have to make the call as to when you should turn it on or off. I would suspect that there are times when you need a reverse 3:2 pulldown for HD material as a 3:2 pulldown can be applied no matter the resolution.

A side note on DRC for those who care. DRC is the video equivalent of CM. What I mean by this, is that CM seems to handle film pulldown and deinterlacing, while DRC strictly handles video mode, 480i deinterlacing. The only thing DRC affects is 480i, while CM will affect any resolution. If anyone is interested in the DRC Modes and their differences, I will be happy to explain my understanding. Keep in mind that there are also other algorithms, such as upsampling 720p to 1080p and deinterlacing 1080i to 1080p that we evidently have no control over.

I hope this helps put some closure to the issue, I know we have all been racking our brains


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post #202 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aqupunk View Post

Ok any advice would be greatly appreciated, I have noise grain on my 60". I'm sitting 8 feet away in low light. I have done all the things lowered sharp 15, tried the noise reducer on low and the mpeg noise on low also. Don't know if it is helping or hurting but it is when watching hd cable 1080i sources. I have the picture at 83. Does anyone have like mosquito noise grain from hd cable?
Anyone have any advice as to what to set the drc palette to. I am only asking for sd digital cable which is 480i sources only.


These were my questions that no one got back to me on in dire need of some help....

I agree with Joe, the noise is probably coming from your source if Blu-Ray looks fine. Grain/Mosquito type noise normally comes from a noisy source or poor calibration. Poor black level calibration can cause noise in dark scenes that is just as bad or worse as some source noise. If the black level is set incorrectly (too high), then watching in a dark room will aggravate the problem.

For DRC, you just have to play with it to your liking. One axis smooths the picture, and one sharpens it. You generally want the DRC mode to be High Density unless you happen to be watching still pictures. I have my palette set to 50, 40. I can't tell a huge difference even if I go from 100, 100, to 1, 1.


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post #203 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey Cusack View Post

Well I am posting here since the owners thread was not able to answer all my questions.

Is the PC input just as good on the A3000 as the Samsung HLTxx76s?
Are the primary colors now just as accurate as the Samsung HLTxx76s?

If these prove to be true than I have no good reason to buy the samsung over the a3000.


Can't answer as to the PC input as I don't use it on my A3000 and have never owned the Sammy.

I'm not sure about the question on the primary colors being off. If you are asking if they are off from the factory, then the answer is yes, just about everything is off.


If you calibrate an A3000 correctly you can get very good results. I don't know if anyone has had one ISF calibrated, but if you look back through this thread you will find where someone used a iLT colorimeter and HCFR software to calibrate his set. Take a look at the graphs he provided...

Edit: Here you go, bummed the link for you

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post11715697


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post #204 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 07:57 PM
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^^I disagree with points one and two completely and I believe the Sony tech was guessing. If you look at my post history and what joefvx theorized it will explain why we believe the A3000 is not a fixed 120hz display. Also look at the front cover of the manual, it says that Motionflow/120hz is DFI(Dark Frame Insertion)

If you can turn ME off then you are turning Motionflow off which is the 120hz setting.

Also while watching hockey I have ME on High, and Cinemotion off. It took the creepy affect away. I also turned the Motion Naturalizer on to Mode 2 and it didn't change the picture that I could see where as with MN on with Blu Ray it showed flicker.

I think the issue is this. BD and DVD's are going to be affected by these settings differently than Sat/cable channels.

Since I have all my sources routed through my Denon receiver, I would have to go in and change Video Options setting, i.e. ME, MN and Cinemotion each time I change a source i.e. PS3 BD 1080p24p, cable and my HTPC since I don't use the separate HDMI inputs on the tv itself.
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post #205 of 4486 Old 10-04-2007, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

I tested 300 on Blu-Ray again, with ME set to High and CM on Auto1. I can definetely see what the other guys are talking about, and creepy is the right word. It is really weird. The good news is that I think I know why it is doing it.

I just got off the phone with a level 2 Sony Tech Rep. I got some answers from him, but who knows exactly how accurate they are. He seemed to know his stuff, and he actually knew exactly what I was talking about as he had seen it himself. Here is a summary:

1) A3000 is fixed at 120 Hz. He seemed fairly certain of this.

2) MN is indeed doing black frame insertion as we suspected.

3) From what he could tell me (he didnt know exactly how it worked), ME is some type of frame blending/interpolation algorithm.

4) The "Auto" settings for CM aren't Auto at all. CM evidently has no detection algorithm to tell when it should apply a reverse 3:2 pulldown and when it should not (which is news to me). Evidently, if CM is on it tries to do a reverse 3:2 pulldown on everything, even 1080/24p. You have to decide when to use it and when not to. Auto1 is different from Auto2 in that Auto2 disables ME.......................................................... ............................................................ ............................................................ .......................

I hope this helps put some closure to the issue, I know we have all been racking our brains


This seems to fit the observations well. Using 120 hz allows the Motion Enhancer to work-given the the five available frames that can be manipulated if the input signal was 24 fps, or four frames if input is 30 hz. I believe MotionFlow is the Sony Hypespeak for this manipulation process.

Motion Naturalizer has always appeared to be obvious with regard to the black frame insertion. Again, having a 120 hz rate makes it easy to vary the extent of the insertion rate.

Unfortunately, we shall probably not know the absolute truth as Sony will hold its proprietary techniques close, and, I doubt if many support personnel have been allowed into the inner circle when it comes to manipulation processes

Thanks for taking all the time trying to unravel such
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post #206 of 4486 Old 10-05-2007, 09:37 AM
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I tested 300 on Blu-Ray again, with ME set to High and CM on Auto1. I can definetely see what the other guys are talking about, and creepy is the right word. It is really weird. The good news is that I think I know why it is doing it.

I just got off the phone with a level 2 Sony Tech Rep. I got some answers from him, but who knows exactly how accurate they are. He seemed to know his stuff, and he actually knew exactly what I was talking about as he had seen it himself. Here is a summary:

1) A3000 is fixed at 120 Hz. He seemed fairly certain of this.

2) MN is indeed doing black frame insertion as we suspected.

3) From what he could tell me (he didnt know exactly how it worked), ME is some type of frame blending/interpolation algorithm.

4) The "Auto" settings for CM aren't Auto at all. CM evidently has no detection algorithm to tell when it should apply a reverse 3:2 pulldown and when it should not (which is news to me). Evidently, if CM is on it tries to do a reverse 3:2 pulldown on everything, even 1080/24p. You have to decide when to use it and when not to. Auto1 is different from Auto2 in that Auto2 disables ME.

The rep had seen the issue we are describing when having ME turned on with CM to Auto1. He went on to explain that CM and ME interact, and this is by design. The reason we are seeing this weird, creepy, silky smooth picture is because we shouldn't have CM on for 24p playback in the first place. The interaction between ME and CM (which is by design for material that actually needs CM) is what is giving us the creepy picture. This explains why one or the other doesn't necessarily make that big of a difference.

So, long story short, using CM and ME together for 24p playback seems to be incorrect. He verified that some people actually liked the effect, but it seems very "artificial" looking to me.

So, to sum it all up, you are responsible as the user to know when material requires a reverse 3:2 pulldown and tell the A3000 to apply it.

This doesn't leave much material that actually requires CM. A good DVD player or BD/HD DVD player should already apply the reverse 3:2 pulldown before the signal leaves the player. Most of the better ones (such as Oppo) DO have detection algorithms to determine if a reverse 3:2 and they apply it automagically. If you have an older DVD player that does not have reverse 3:2 capability, then you can turn on CM and allow the A3000 to do it.

The other question that remains is cable/sat/OTA material that requires a reverse 3:2 pulldown. I don't know if devices such as my DTV HR20 apply a pulldown or not, so this one is probably dependent on what device (if any) you have supplying the signal. We do know that CM will attempt a pulldown on HD signals as well as SD. This is evident from the Blu-Ray problems as well as the problem CM causes with the ticker on ESPN HD. You will have to make the call as to when you should turn it on or off. I would suspect that there are times when you need a reverse 3:2 pulldown for HD material as a 3:2 pulldown can be applied no matter the resolution.

A side note on DRC for those who care. DRC is the video equivalent of CM. What I mean by this, is that CM seems to handle film pulldown and deinterlacing, while DRC strictly handles video mode, 480i deinterlacing. The only thing DRC affects is 480i, while CM will affect any resolution. If anyone is interested in the DRC Modes and their differences, I will be happy to explain my understanding. Keep in mind that there are also other algorithms, such as upsampling 720p to 1080p and deinterlacing 1080i to 1080p that we evidently have no control over.

I hope this helps put some closure to the issue, I know we have all been racking our brains

im not entirely sold on what the sony tech guy said about cinemotion not knowing of the source has a 3:@ pulldown. everywhere i look on info about cinemotion says its detects 3:2 pulldown in a source and applys the reverse to it. this is going all the way back to the xbr1 i doubt they changed it at all up till now. and im sure they are usign the same algarithm in there dvd players and PS3. so if there dvd players and ps3 can detect a 3:2 pulldown im sure this tv can. they best thign to do would be to call them back get a different person on the phone and see if they say the exact smae thign as the other guy.
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post #207 of 4486 Old 10-05-2007, 10:48 AM
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Well, I can't vouch for the accuracy of what he told me, but I thought I would post it. What he explained is possible, but I don't know if it is the complete truth.

I was also originally under the impression that CM had a detection scheme, but I'm not 100% sure.

It took me a while and was a bit frustrating to finally get to the second level of tech support, so I don't know if I'm going to call back. I don't think they are ever going to put you through to someone who really knows exactly what is going on, so I don't know if there is much point in calling back.

The real answer is probably somewhere between the theory that has been posted here and what the tech has stated. I will say this: If CM does have a detection algorithm, it doesn't work very well. If it did, then we would not see these issues with 24p playback and the issue with the ticker stuttering on ESPN HD. ESPN HD is 720p, so I don't know what business CM would have trying to do a reverse pulldown there.


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Well, I can't vouch for the accuracy of what he told me, but I thought I would post it. What he explained is possible, but I don't know if it is the complete truth.

I was also originally under the impression that CM had a detection scheme, but I'm not 100% sure.

It took me a while and was a bit frustrating to finally get to the second level of tech support, so I don't know if I'm going to call back. I don't think they are ever going to put you through to someone who really knows exactly what is going on, so I don't know if there is much point in calling back.

The real answer is probably somewhere between the theory that has been posted here and what the tech has stated. I will say this: If CM does have a detection algorithm, it doesn't work very well. If it did, then we would not see these issues with 24p playback and the issue with the ticker stuttering on ESPN HD. ESPN HD is 720p, so I don't know what business CM would have trying to do a reverse pulldown there.


yeah its really confusing, thats why im lookign forward to cnet doin there review on this tv. when the reviewd the xbr2 and a2000 they found out that cinmetion doesnt always do a good job of reverseing the footage. infact it failed their 3:2 pulldown test.
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yeah its really confusing, thats why im lookign forward to cnet doin there review on this tv. when the reviewd the xbr2 and a2000 they found out that cinmetion doesnt always do a good job of reverseing the footage. infact it failed their 3:2 pulldown test.

I read that review. I wouldn't doubt that the A3000 has some of the same issue. What I don't understand is why it even relies on the detection algorithm for 24p. If you get a 24p signal, then you KNOW it is 24p, trying to detect that it is 24p is nonsense... but who knows, it is definetely doing something.

As for 120Hz, my guess is that the set really is fixed like the tech said. I can't find any reason to switch between 60Hz and 120Hz. Going from 60Hz to 120Hz is not going to make anything more fluid looking in and of itself. The advantages you have with 120Hz are:

1) You can directly display 24p material without any manipulation (5:5)

2) You can interpolate and/or insert black frames in the 5 frame period as Strawdawg has described.

3) Every other possible frame rate fits nicely into 120Hz. All you have to do for any frame rate is repeat it a certain number of times (as StrawDawg also explained).

Going from 60Hz to 120Hz isn't going to make a difference in the motion without some type of frame blending/interpolation as far as I can tell. Displaying the 120Hz frame 5 times over for a total of 1/24th of a second is the same as displaying a frame 1 time for 1/24th of a second if the screen does not blank or dim between refreshes. The only way you get a difference is by doing something with the intermediate frames to artificially add some data to the source (interpolating between frames). For this reason, I can't see why anyone would include an option to toggle between 120Hz and 60Hz, much less use it. It does make sense to have an option to turn off the interpolation and to be able to vary the degree of interpolation, which is what ME seems to offer with its off, standard, and high settings.


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post #210 of 4486 Old 10-05-2007, 01:33 PM
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Also while watching hockey I have ME on High, and Cinemotion off. It took the creepy affect away. I also turned the Motion Naturalizer on to Mode 2 and it didn't change the picture that I could see where as with MN on with Blu Ray it showed flicker.

I think the issue is this. BD and DVD's are going to be affected by these settings differently than Sat/cable channels.

Since I have all my sources routed through my Denon receiver, I would have to go in and change Video Options setting, i.e. ME, MN and Cinemotion each time I change a source i.e. PS3 BD 1080p24p, cable and my HTPC since I don't use the separate HDMI inputs on the tv itself.

I agree with you that ME and MN will affect BD, DVD, Sat, Cable differently, mainly because there will be a different number of intermediate frames for ME and MN to affect depending on the source (as StrawDawg has explained). For instance, there will be less frames for ME and MN to manipulate when watching a 30 fps interlaced signal than with a 24 fps progressive signal. This would explain why you see less flicker on hockey than a BD at 24p (what channel were you viewing hockey on)?

The creepy effect seems to go away with CineMotion turned off for me as well, and I don't think we know why yet. It either doesn't have any detection, or the detection it uses is not very good and it ends up trying to apply a reverse 3:2 pulldown when it shouldn't.

I personally don't use any type of switching because of the issues you have mentioned in needing to change settings. I prefer to go direct to the TV so that I can have individual control over all of my sources by using the independent memories for each TV input. This allows for source specific calibration as well as processing settings such as MN, ME, and CM. I'm not saying using a switcher is in any way wrong, but just like everything else, it has its advantages and disadvantages. If you can come to a median ground on all of the settings and calibration for every source you have, then switching isnt as much of a big deal.

Of course, all of this is just my opinion and I may turn out to be a moron


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