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post #1 of 19 Old 10-31-2007, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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What source material would I use to see the difference between having cinemotion on and off?

My only source options are SD-DVD and SD & HD Cable. I have a couple hundred DVDs so hopefully 1 or 2 would use 3:2 pulldown.

I have searched the forums and only found debate about it, not examples. If there is a link, I'd appreciate that as well

Thanks!
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post #2 of 19 Old 10-31-2007, 06:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Well I just realized that since my DVD player only outputs 480p via HDMI, I won't be able to see the effects of Cinemotion from the DVD unless I switch to component.

Are are there SD TV sources that would benefit from Cinemotion? 480i? How would you tell? I understand what 3:2 pulldown it, but I don't think I could point it out in a line-up.
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post #3 of 19 Old 11-01-2007, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Very strange, I have searched the internet high and low and I can only find discussion about what reverse 3:2 pulldown is, discussion about when 3:2 pulldown is activated but not one comment saying "here is an example of a 480i source that is 24fps and will benefit from correct reverse 3:2 pulldown".

Maybe we need a discussion about why there are no examples of reverse 3:2 pulldown available. It seems like reverse 3:2 pulldown is only good in theory, but there are no real world examples to justify it.

I'm obviously trying to bump this thread to the top, but it seems like a very relevant area that has not been explored yet.
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post #4 of 19 Old 11-01-2007, 02:16 PM
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People in the A3000 thread (I'm one of them) have been discussing cinemotion on and off. I think that cinemotion will work regardless of if the DVD is 480p or 480i. The issue is that it is a 24fps source that has been converted to 30fps. I'm not sure what Cinemotion does if you have a 60Hz set, but if you have a 120Hz set like the A3000 it will then convert the 30/60fps signal back into it's native 24fps. This removes judder associated with the 3:2 pulldown.

As far as real world sources go I will say that in the first few action scenes of Serenity (like when they are escaping from the Reavers after robbing the vault) I was able to see great improvement to the smoothness of the image. This was output from the Xbox 360 add on at 1080i.
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post #5 of 19 Old 11-01-2007, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
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tkdee - Yes, I saw the discussion in the A3000 thread, that is what got me thinking about it. I have an A2000, and the option is only available when viewing 480i material.

Thanks for the suggesting Serenity, I just read a review and it sounds like my kind of movie. Maybe I'll run out get it tonight and enjoy the movie after testing the differences.

I have the impression that not all DVD is 24fps. Is there a way to find out?
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post #6 of 19 Old 11-01-2007, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkdee View Post

People in the A3000 thread (I'm one of them) have been discussing cinemotion on and off. I think that cinemotion will work regardless of if the DVD is 480p or 480i. The issue is that it is a 24fps source that has been converted to 30fps. I'm not sure what Cinemotion does if you have a 60Hz set, but if you have a 120Hz set like the A3000 it will then convert the 30/60fps signal back into it's native 24fps. This removes judder associated with the 3:2 pulldown.

As far as real world sources go I will say that in the first few action scenes of Serenity (like when they are escaping from the Reavers after robbing the vault) I was able to see great improvement to the smoothness of the image. This was output from the Xbox 360 add on at 1080i.

progressive scan dvd players are already doin the reverse pulldown if they are outputting a progressive signal. so cinemotion is not needed. cinemotion only works on 480i signals and , we think, 1080i signals.
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post #7 of 19 Old 11-02-2007, 07:00 AM
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It depends on your set. For the A2000 (60Hz) reverse pull down won't do anything useful, and I believe cinemotion is just a deinterlacer. In fact for a 60Hz set you NEED pulldown to view the source material. For a 120Hz set it doesn't really matter if the signal is interlaced or progressive. You aren't merely deinterlacing but you are converting a source that has gone through a 24fps->30fps conversion back to 24fps.
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post #8 of 19 Old 11-02-2007, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by joevfx View Post

progressive scan dvd players are already doin the reverse pulldown if they are outputting a progressive signal. so cinemotion is not needed. cinemotion only works on 480i signals and , we think, 1080i signals.

Progressive Scan DVD players do not do Reverse 3:2 pulldown. In fact, they do regular 3:2 pulldown, just not in the same way that interlaced players do. A progressive scan player takes the 24 fps source and repeats every other frame three times to output the signal at 60hz for display on a regular TV (A,A,A,B,B,C,C,C,D,D). This is called 3:2 pulldown, and this is the way progressive scan players do it. It causes judder because every other frame is on the screen longer making motion look hurky-jerky. Cinemotion supposedly reverses this process and displays the source at 24 fps @ 120hz (5:5). thereby eliminating judder completely.
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post #9 of 19 Old 11-02-2007, 10:35 AM
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progessive scan players do not add a pulldown. if its outputting a progressive signal then each frame is being displayed in its entirety with no fields. hence cinemotion is not needed. no progressvie signal has a 3:2 in it. this is how HQV benchmark software tests the pull down and de interlacign on tvs or dvd players. if you want to test the dvd player you tell it to output progressive and you turn off the reverse pulldown on your tv. if u want to test the tv you tell the player to output interlaced and turn on cinemotion on the TV. I work in broadcast an di have never EVER have a progressive source that needed a pulldown.
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post #10 of 19 Old 11-02-2007, 12:05 PM
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I'm sorry joevfx, but you simply don't understand what you're talking about here. 3:2 pulldown is the process of converting 24fps film to 60hz displays. There are two types of 3:2 pulldown, interlaced and progressive. They both achieve the same task in two different ways. Interlaced 3:2 pulldown separates each frame into two fields (even and odd lines) then displays the fields in a 3:2 cadence to reach 60hz (A1/A2, A1/B2, B1/C2, C1/C2, D1/D2). As you can see the fields from frame A are shown three times, frame B twice, frame C three times, and frame D twice. In the case of progressive 3:2 pulldown, the entire frame is repeated in a 3:2 cadence to reach 60hz. (A,A,A,B,B,C,C,C,D,D). ALL progressive players MUST do this in order to show 24 fps film on a 60hz display. Other than the newer HD and BRD players, there's no way to turn this 3:2 pulldown off. With the advent of the 120hz display this 3:2 pulldown is no longer needed. The display can actually show 24 fps material with no conversion at 120hz. But, since there's no way to turn it off in most DVD players Cinemotion steps in to reverse the pulldown performed by the DVD player restoring the film to 24 fps. I suggest you try Googling "3:2 pulldown" to learn a little bit more about the technology.
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post #11 of 19 Old 11-02-2007, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwittenmyer View Post

I'm sorry joevfx, but you simply don't understand what you're talking about here. 3:2 pulldown is the process of converting 24fps film to 60hz displays. There are two types of 3:2 pulldown, interlaced and progressive. They both achieve the same task in two different ways. Interlaced 3:2 pulldown separates each frame into two fields (even and odd lines) then displays the fields in a 3:2 cadence to reach 60hz (A1/A2, A1/B2, B1/C2, C1/C2, D1/D2). As you can see the fields from frame A are shown three times, frame B twice, frame C three times, and frame D twice. In the case of progressive 3:2 pulldown, the entire frame is repeated in a 3:2 cadence to reach 60hz. (A,A,A,B,B,C,C,C,D,D). ALL progressive players MUST do this in order to show 24 fps film on a 60hz display. Other than the newer HD and BRD players, there's no way to turn this 3:2 pulldown off. With the advent of the 120hz display this 3:2 pulldown is no longer needed. The display can actually show 24 fps material with no conversion at 120hz. But, since there's no way to turn it off in most DVD players Cinemotion steps in to reverse the pulldown performed by the DVD player restoring the film to 24 fps. I suggest you try Googling "3:2 pulldown" to learn a little bit more about the technology.

so how come all the reviews i read about cinemotion they say to turn it off and let the dvd player do the conversion ( since most progressive dvd players will do it better then the TV) im just telling you what i have read basically everywhere when researchign if the tv or the dvd player shoudl be doin the reverse 3:2 pulldown.

also i read everywhere that cinemotion only works on 480i and 1080i sources. and will do nothing to 720p and 1080p
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post #12 of 19 Old 11-02-2007, 01:56 PM
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You would want your DVD player to do upconversion from the 480i source DVD to output to 1080 or 720 because it probably does that better than your TV. But that has nothing to do with Cinemotion or 3:2 pulldown.

All DVD players convert 24 fps MPEG stream to output at 60hz. If you want it to display at 24 fps on your fancy 120hz Sony, then you'll need Cinemotion turned on. The only time you want it off is when you're watching an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray at 1080/24p because it shouldn't do anything with that source. However, some reports on here have stated that it does "weird things" possibly resulting from incorrect detection of the source.
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post #13 of 19 Old 11-02-2007, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwittenmyer View Post

You would want your DVD player to do upconversion from the 480i source DVD to output to 1080 or 720 because it probably does that better than your TV. But that has nothing to do with Cinemotion or 3:2 pulldown.

All DVD players convert 24 fps MPEG stream to output at 60hz. If you want it to display at 24 fps on your fancy 120hz Sony, then you'll need Cinemotion turned on. The only time you want it off is when you're watching an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray at 1080/24p because it shouldn't do anything with that source. However, some reports on here have stated that it does "weird things" possibly resulting from incorrect detection of the source.

im confused, i though there is no such thing as 1080/60p only 1080/60i and 720/60p. so how is it outputting 1080 at 60hz progressive?
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post #14 of 19 Old 11-02-2007, 03:36 PM
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ok so im not trying to start a quarell here, but i just asked my company's head of engineering who was the video/engineer guy at Pixar for 10 years. and he says im correct. 3:2 is only need and can only be used on interlaced footage ( its a field based gag). Progressive DVD players are sending out FULL progressive frames that already had the 3:2 taken out of it and sends that to the TV. if the TV is NOT a progressive scan TV then it has to put the 3:2 back into the signal for the TV to diplay. IF it IS a progressive scan TV then it will dsiplay full frames. The only reason we have cinemotion on TVs today ( which are mostly progressive scan) is casue they are giving you the option to have either the TV do the reverse pulldown or you can turn it off to let the DVD player do it. THey are giving you an option to use which ever one does the better job. This is why the seperated cinemotion from the DRC menu. cause now you can choose to use it or not.
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post #15 of 19 Old 11-02-2007, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwittenmyer View Post

I'm sorry joevfx, but you simply don't understand what you're talking about here. 3:2 pulldown is the process of converting 24fps film to 60hz displays. There are two types of 3:2 pulldown, interlaced and progressive. They both achieve the same task in two different ways. Interlaced 3:2 pulldown separates each frame into two fields (even and odd lines) then displays the fields in a 3:2 cadence to reach 60hz (A1/A2, A1/B2, B1/C2, C1/C2, D1/D2). As you can see the fields from frame A are shown three times, frame B twice, frame C three times, and frame D twice. In the case of progressive 3:2 pulldown, the entire frame is repeated in a 3:2 cadence to reach 60hz. (A,A,A,B,B,C,C,C,D,D). ALL progressive players MUST do this in order to show 24 fps film on a 60hz display. Other than the newer HD and BRD players, there's no way to turn this 3:2 pulldown off. With the advent of the 120hz display this 3:2 pulldown is no longer needed. The display can actually show 24 fps material with no conversion at 120hz. But, since there's no way to turn it off in most DVD players Cinemotion steps in to reverse the pulldown performed by the DVD player restoring the film to 24 fps. I suggest you try Googling "3:2 pulldown" to learn a little bit more about the technology.

This isn't entirely true. It depends on how the material is stored on disc. DVD specs allow for both interlaced and progressive frames stored on disc. If the material stored on disc is interlaced, then the player must first do a reverse 3:2 pulldown, then deinterlace, then add a "progressive" 3:2 pulldown for a 60Hz display. A 120Hz display could theoretically skip the last step, but no one has shown conclusive evidence that it actually does skip it. For a 60Hz display and an interlaced disc:

60i --> reverse 3:2 and deinterlacing --> 24p --> "progressive" 3:2 pulldown --> 60p

If the material is stored as progressive on the disc, then you can skip the first step and start at 24p.


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post #16 of 19 Old 11-02-2007, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by joevfx View Post

im confused, i though there is no such thing as 1080/60p only 1080/60i and 720/60p. so how is it outputting 1080 at 60hz progressive?

There is 1080/60p, but it is not broadcast. Only 1080/60i is broadcast.


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post #17 of 19 Old 11-02-2007, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by joevfx View Post

ok so im not trying to start a quarell here, but i just asked my company's head of engineering who was the video/engineer guy at Pixar for 10 years. and he says im correct. 3:2 is only need and can only be used on interlaced footage ( its a field based gag). Progressive DVD players are sending out FULL progressive frames that already had the 3:2 taken out of it and sends that to the TV. if the TV is NOT a progressive scan TV then it has to put the 3:2 back into the signal for the TV to diplay. IF it IS a progressive scan TV then it will dsiplay full frames. The only reason we have cinemotion on TVs today ( which are mostly progressive scan) is casue they are giving you the option to have either the TV do the reverse pulldown or you can turn it off to let the DVD player do it. THey are giving you an option to use which ever one does the better job. This is why the seperated cinemotion from the DRC menu. cause now you can choose to use it or not.

He is right. The confusion comes from all the terminology. Most people refer to a "3:2 pulldown" as the process of interlacing film frames and repeating them in a 3:2 cadence. A "reverse 3:2 pulldown" is the reversal of that process. Then you hear people using the same terminology for the 3:2 cadence found in a progressive signal. The two are not the same.

If you are watching film based material a 60Hz TV, then you better believe it has a 3:2 cadence. Whether or not it is a 3:2 cadence of fields or frames depends on whether it is "interlaced" or "progressive." Even a progressive scan DVD player outputs frames in a 3:2 cadence, but they are progressive frames, not interlaced fields.


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post #18 of 19 Old 11-02-2007, 03:57 PM
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He is right. The confusion comes from all the terminology. Most people refer to a "3:2 pulldown" as the process of interlacing film frames and repeating them in a 3:2 cadence. A "reverse 3:2 pulldown" is the reversal of that process. Then you hear people using the same terminology for the 3:2 cadence found in a progressive signal. The two are not the same.

If you are watching film based material a 60Hz TV, then you better believe it has a 3:2 cadence. Whether or not it is a 3:2 cadence of fields or frames depends on whether it is "interlaced" or "progressive." Even a progressive scan DVD player outputs frames in a 3:2 cadence, but they are progressive frames, not interlaced fields.

exactly. score one for Joe .... j/k
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post #19 of 19 Old 06-29-2010, 07:32 AM
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Hi,

I have a Sony KDL-40V2500 40" bought from USA. I am now in India. I want to hookup my TV to HD STBs available here via HDMI. Since the relay here is at 25fps, I would like to know whether my TV ( its NTSC only TV 60Hz ) can display it properly. The TVs here support 50Hz, so it can handle 25fps relay. Since my TV is 60Hz , I would like to know if TV can use CineMotion 3:2 pulldown to adjust the frames. Please help
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