Fluid change on Philips TV... anyone wanna help? :) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 93 Old 12-24-2007, 06:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I finally decided to attempt to change the coolant in my Philips 60PP9601 myself. After speaking with several repairmen, only one said he'd do it for me, but he hasn't returned my phone call since our initial discussion. So, I'm basically left with no choice.

I'm in the N J/PA area and was wondering if anyone would like to come over and help? :-) I wouldn't expect anyone to work on it, just an advisor with an experienced eye to help... I'd be willing to repay the favor with whatever you need help with. I'm an engineer and a highly experienced weldor and fabricator. I can make just about anything and I'm highly experienced with cars and motorcycles.

Anyone have or know where I can get a copy of the service manual for it? The $50 charge was a bit steep for me... someone out there's gotta have a copy!
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post #2 of 93 Old 12-25-2007, 08:21 AM
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http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=philips+fluid
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post #3 of 93 Old 12-25-2007, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:

Hi MOtvGuy. Thanks for that link. I think I've seen that thread before, but I'll be sure to use it when I take the TV apart. I was hoping someone would have the service manual for my TV already. I thought I found it online for $25, but I e-mailed them and they said it doesn't have that procedure.
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post #4 of 93 Old 12-26-2007, 07:30 AM
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Here's a few more avs sequences on fluid change:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post10624487

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1723

It's been 7+ years, but bought a $35 CDROM service disc for my Philips 64PH9905 just by calling the parts dept. One needs infinite patience to navigate the runarounds/bureaucracy. Can't seem to find a fluid changing procedure on my disc, though. Philips specific tips might be somewhere here:
http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/brand...lips_tips.html
Could have sworn I'd seen the Philips procedure somewhere years ago but can't pinpoint it now.
Assume you're positive your CRTs fluids are clouded by looking directly into the lenses.
--John
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post #5 of 93 Old 12-26-2007, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi John. No, I haven't looked down into the CRT's yet, but I've posted pics of my problem and everyone agrees it needs to be done. It's a 2001 TV and it's never been serviced since new.

What do you think?

Also, is there any way to prevent this from happening again? I remember reading somewhere about needing to use radiator paint on the aluminum frame to stop the problem. Any comments?

[IMG][/IMG]
LL
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post #6 of 93 Old 12-26-2007, 11:28 AM
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No, don't agree! A fluid change for all tubes is a major job, a last step IMO. If that bluish outline is all you see, all other possibilities should be completely eliminated first. Although this link deals with FPs, some of the discussion and pictures about fluid replacement should apply in general.

Assume all test patterns (external or built-in convergence + signs) have a blue overlap, too, and that blue focus, which is deliberately fuzzy to compensate for lower blue sensitivity, isn't the issue. That blue outline presumably appears on all other images, too, and after all potential adjustments to eliminate it have been tried (electrical, mechanical focus per that Philips Keohi link), should appear as a cloudiness looking into the blue lens, and perhaps the others, with test patterns or other images being projected. The current thread about not throwing out your CRT RPTV (Mr. Bob) may have a post or two about how to confirm fluid contamination; (believe that's where I read about looking into CRT lenses). As you imply from your initial request, something like this needs full study and planning (such as marking tube positions before removing each CRT), plus all the turkey basters :-) and correct fluids lined up. Lots of posts, some very detailed, covering it in the archives, and a Google search with avsforum as the first term aids research. Philips service procedures outline a lengthy sequence for alignment after CRT replacement or removals; again, it might be at the Keohi site, since the beam alignment/astigmatism procedures there match those on my CDROM. Never done the exchange here, just read lots of posts describing it, and that FP link may have mentioned a cleaning procedure to help minimize a 2nd growth.-- John
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post #7 of 93 Old 12-26-2007, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi John. Thank you so much for your help. I'm going to take your advice and remove the back coverplate this evening and take a look at the lenses to see if there's any contamination. I must tell you that I have already ordered the ethylene glycol solution for all 3 tubes from a supplier.

I have tried all of the correction features and alignment featues that are available via the remote. Nothing has stopped that blue glow around any and all bright objects.

One thing I did notice was the picture looked great while playing xbox this weekend, and when I played Star Wars episode II. I didn't notice any glowing on that dvd, but I noticed a ton while watching The Matrix DVD's and regular TV. I wonder if it's an issue with the DVD's I'm watching and the fact that I don't have the HDTV box from my cable company (not watching real HDTV).
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post #8 of 93 Old 12-26-2007, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I just opened up the TV and looked inside. I honestly can't tell if the fluid is dirty or not. All 3 look the same to me. There's a big mirror in the way of viewing directly down into the guns, but I can sneak my heads past and look in. I looked in with the TV on and with it off using a flashlight. I can't tell if there's stuff in there or not. There is a film of dust on the lenses though... maybe I should start by cleaning those? If yes, what's the safest stuff to use?
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post #9 of 93 Old 12-26-2007, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I just took it apart a bit more so I could see everything. Looks scarey...

Here's pics of the blue, green, and red respectively. First set is with tv off. Second set is with tv on. Hope someone can tell me something here...





And the "guts" shot:


If anyone needs a specific type of shot to help, let me know and I'll take it.
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post #10 of 93 Old 12-26-2007, 04:34 PM
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Getting the camera closer to the image inside the tubes would help. As far away as it is, it's hard to make out what's going on in there.

Make it close enough that the entire image inside shows up in the picture, on each gun. 3 pix.


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post #11 of 93 Old 12-26-2007, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, this is what I got.

Again, there's dust on the lens and it's not helping me taking pics... I'd like to clean them but I don't know what is the safest stuff to use...



When I look inside each one, they all look clean (I think). I'm no expert so what do I know...
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post #12 of 93 Old 12-27-2007, 04:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanRC30 View Post

I have tried all of the correction features and alignment featues that are available via the remote. Nothing has stopped that blue glow around any and all bright objects.

One thing I did notice was the picture looked great while playing xbox this weekend, and when I played Star Wars episode II. I didn't notice any glowing on that dvd, but I noticed a ton while watching The Matrix DVD's and regular TV. I wonder if it's an issue with the DVD's I'm watching and the fact that I don't have the HDTV box from my cable company (not watching real HDTV).

Blue lens focus (loosen the wing nut) and the focus pot are internal adjustments, which I tried on my similar Philips 64PH9905 last summer (for a different reason: can't see scan lines any more.). The focus/screen board (just below the rightmost lens in your interior shot, I believe) has six potentiometers and the red-green-blue pots labeled 'screen" or the equivalent shouldn't be touched. I blocked off two guns at a time with cardboard, fed in a crosshatch test pattern, and adjusted the lenses and pots to maximize sharpness. On my year-2000 Philips, lenses and focus pots had very narrow sharpness ranges and adjustments didn't enhance images; sharpness was maximizied from the factory.

Obviously if the blue fluid is contaminated all similar image sources, such a bright area on a darker background, should show the smearing--unadjustable by any method, although focus adjustments might slightly vary the glow/smearing. Can't really tell from your CRT shots either, but I'd want to be positive the fluid(s) are bad before undertaking such a procedure. -- John
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post #13 of 93 Old 12-27-2007, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanRC30 View Post

Ok, this is what I got.

Again, there's dust on the lens and it's not helping me taking pics... I'd like to clean them but I don't know what is the safest stuff to use...

When I look inside each one, they all look clean (I think). I'm no expert so what do I know...

I don't think the blue is out of focus, based on the full color single image of the guy with the black round glasses.

But you definitely need to get your optics fully clean - most likely including your deeper optics as well - before we will know anything for sure.

Who knows, that might just do it!


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post #14 of 93 Old 12-27-2007, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Agreed. The dust on the lens does make it difficult to see inside and even more difficult to take pics. But when I look inside with the tv on or off (with a flashlight) I can honestly say that I don't see anything floating around or any buildup on the surface of the lens. Of course it's really weird looking into this thing and trying to focus my own vision in there, but from what I've been reading, it seems like if there was any algae growth in there, it should jump right out at me... am I wrong in presuming this?

I'm going to take a clean cotton ball today with some non-ammonia based windex on the cotton and carefully clean the lenses.

What makes me curious is why are the red and green guns look the same, and the blue gun looks completely different? The blue looks nothing like the other two. There's even a paper ring at the top which seems to do nothing...?
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post #15 of 93 Old 12-27-2007, 05:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I cleaned the lenses and I must say... they look great!

So, I just snapped some pics of the guns with the same screenshot as the other day... maybe someone can tell me if I have bad fluid?

ALL CLEAN!!!


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post #16 of 93 Old 12-27-2007, 07:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I forgot to mention that I did play a little with the focus settings on the blue gun... it only made things worse when I moved them from their spots, so I put them back.

The glow is still there, but I think everything else is a bit clearer due to the lens cleaning...


I'm baffled here... what could this be? To me, the fluid looks uncontaminated. Could it just be a little cloudy and I can't see it? Could something else be wrong?
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post #17 of 93 Old 12-28-2007, 02:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanRC30 View Post

I forgot to mention that I did play a little with the focus settings on the blue gun... it only made things worse when I moved them from their spots, so I put them back.

The glow is still there, but I think everything else is a bit clearer due to the lens cleaning...


I'm baffled here... what could this be? To me, the fluid looks uncontaminated. Could it just be a little cloudy and I can't see it? Could something else be wrong?

Maybe it's a layer of growth on the face of the CRT itself -


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post #18 of 93 Old 12-28-2007, 04:23 AM
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You've only posted that one image with a blue glow that I've seen. If the problem is some contamination or other blue CRT problem (or even the blue-only circuits), it seems every contrasty image, from every source, would have the blue glow. I may have missed confirmation of this earlier. (Your last 'graph above makes it hard to believe it's a contamination or any blue-gun problem: all those 'good' images also involve the blue signal circuits and blue CRT.) -- John

Note: With my Philips 64PH9905 I view virtually everything fed at 1080i into my YPbPr HD input. It's actually through a Zektor component switch box (4 signals in, 1 out). My SD DVD machine puts out a 480p deinterlaced signal and my SA8300HD cable STB converts everything to 1080i output as YPbPr to the Zektor. Short (2') cables connect the DVD and cable STB to the Zektor, since I found the added capacitance in 6' component cables created artifacts: flickering in image areas where high contrast existed. I'm also using the cable STB S-video output (rarely). One option there might be bypassing your current input and trying the YPbPr HD; wouldn't be possible, I believe, if your DVD only puts out 480i, but would if your set, like mine, has a 480i YPbPr DVD input (Philips' Genesis-chip 480i deinterlacing). Also, try to minimize cable hookup lengths, even if it's just temporary to see if cable lengths are a factor.
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post #19 of 93 Old 12-28-2007, 05:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow John... you must really know your stuff... most of that is "Chinese to me"... :-) I'll be sure to re-read and become more knowledgeable about this so I can clearly understand...

The only reason I'm posting that same image is to give an accurate comparison after I mess-with/change something. I can assure you that the glow happens around any light-colored or bright image on the screen. To confirm this, I played a lil xbox last night and the glow was around any white lettering or anything really light in color.

When I pull up the tv menu, it's blue and the boxes that pop up are almost not even boxes. They glow as well making them look like ovals. I can take pics of that tonight if anyone wants to see.

The cables I'm using are 2-3' gold plated monster cables.

This is so frustrating... at first, I was willing to pay a tech to come out and fix this thing... I thought I had someone, but he disappeared! I can't reach the guy! And nobody else is interested in coming out to help. One place wants me to bring it to them. No way! It was hard enough getting it in my trailer to get it home... it's not moving again! Besides, it'd be all messed up by the time it got home from the repair shop anyway! I'm so frustrated now with these techs, that I don't even want to hire any of them! It amazes me that people won't come out to me... nobody seems to want to work. I'm glad these people aren't construction workers... if I wanted an addition on my house, they'd say they need to build it at their house, and I'd have to go pick it up from them to put it on my house!

I'm working on very limited funds right now due to a recent issue that has severely impacted my financial status, so I can't just go spending $$$ frivolously to get this fixed. I really need to figure out the problem first, and then go from there to either doing it myself, or if necessary, paying someone to do it.

I'm not opposed to paying for phone consultations, but since it's an "unknown" problem, there's no telling how long it will take to figure out what it could be. It could take multiple phone calls... and the minutes/hours would add up quick! I simply can't afford to take that chance as the cost could end up being through the roof!

So... where should I go from here?

PS- I'd like to add that John has literally pm'd back and forth with me about 150 times in the last few days trying to help me. John, I thank you. Mr. Bob has been e-mailing with me as well (kick-ass). And I thank everyone else out there that's been helping me. It's very nice to see others out there willing to help as much as I do (in other forums). I'm new here simply because I just got this TV and I've never had a big TV before. I'm on a bunch of car and motorcycle forums where I've helped others out a lot. The last person I helped dropped his brand new bike. The upper fairing (plastic piece) broke and he was very upset. He also couldn't get a new one yet since it was an early-release bike and replacement panels aren't available from Italy yet. So, I offered to weld it for him (yes, I can weld plastic) for free. (It just seemed like the right thing to do.) He sent it to me, and included return postage. I put about 4 hours into it, burnt my leg in the process from an accidental dripping of the melted plastic, and got the panel done. I'm shipping it back to him today. So, again, thanks to all helping this noobee out...
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post #20 of 93 Old 12-28-2007, 07:14 AM
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Your earlier post above mentions a few sources that didn't have the glow. Implication is that it has grown worse (everything now) from the weekend viewing.

Still unclear what cables are being used for cable, xbox, and DVD inputs. 2-3' Monsters (3 component cables) for all sources? Is the DVD outputting 480i or 480p or upconverted 1080i; fed to what set input? Has the set ever been used for 1080i HDTV?

Also, does cranking down the Picture (intensity, not brightness) setting lessen the glowing outline? -- John

(P.S. Similar ghastly tales here re Philips servicing several years back, although got good fixes/mods during my warranty period.)
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post #21 of 93 Old 12-28-2007, 07:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason View Post

Your earlier post [ above [/url] mentions a few sources that didn't have the glow. Implication is that it has grown worse (everything now) from the weekend viewing.

Still unclear what cables are being used for cable, xbox, and DVD inputs. 2-3' Monsters (3 component cables) for all sources? Is the DVD outputting 480i or 480p or upconverted 1080i; fed to what set input? Has the set ever been used for 1080i HDTV?

Also, does cranking down the Picture (intensity, not brightness) setting lessen the glowing outline? -- John

(P.S. Similar ghastly tales here re Philips servicing several years back, although got good fixes/mods during my warranty period.)

I don't think it has gotten worse since I got the TV initially. I think I may not have been paying enough attention to different formats. I didn't notice the glow while watching Star Wars II, but that could've been because everything moves so damn quickly in that movie and I just didnt notice it. I'll be sure to check that again when my friend brings it over next time.

Cable TV is using the regular coaxial imput. DVD player is using that YPbPr HD input specifically for the DVD. The Xbox is using the Video 3 input which is the front access port. I don't know what resolution the DVD puts out, and I'm not sure how I would find out that info. I can tell you that I'm using that 3-wire monster cable for the DVD as seen in the pic above where it shows the guts of the TV. The xbox cable came with the xbox. Just a regular 3-line RCA.

The TV was hooked up to a HD box for the majority of its life. I unfortunately don't have the luxury of affording that (even cable TV for me may go by the wayside... all depends on what happens in the upcoming months). This was my brother's TV and he said he never noticed the glow while he had it hooked up to his HD box. Maybe it happened gradually and he never noticed? Maybe it wasn't there? I don't know...

When I crank down the brightness, picture, or any setting that lowers the overall brightness of the picture (anything that makes it darker), the glowing reduces. If I set the picture to "warm" the glow goes away. The brighter I make the picture, the bigger the glow.
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post #22 of 93 Old 12-28-2007, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanRC30 View Post

Cable TV is using the regular coaxial imput.

As you may know, the 480i NTSC cable has the worst PQ and S-video, if there is one and you have a cable, would be better. (S-video wouldn't apply if you're using a direct coax input to an NTSC 480i tuner rather than a coax from a cable STB with an S-video option.)
Quote:


DVD player is using that YPbPr HD input specifically for the DVD.

The DVD player should be putting out only 480i for the YPbPr DVD set input; on my Philips, feeding 480p there results in a split-screen doubled image since the set deinterlacer (Genesis chip) tries to deinterlace an already deinterlaced 480 signal. Result: double images.

The YPbPr HD input might handle 480p or upconverted 1080i from DVD players. But that HD component input on my year-2000 Philips still won't take 480i from any source, and wouldn't take 480p until some local techs swapped two boards under my 1-year warranty; until then, images lost sync (scrambled) completely. If your DVD player can put out 1080i, suggest selecting only 480p just to see if it helps the picture.

Quote:


The Xbox is using the Video 3 input which is the front access port. I don't know what resolution the DVD puts out, and I'm not sure how I would find out that info. I can tell you that I'm using that 3-wire monster cable for the DVD as seen in the pic above where it shows the guts of the TV. The xbox cable came with the xbox. Just a regular 3-line RCA.

Suggest investigating input formats a bit. My Philips HD circuits objected to 480p--before the warranty board replacement--by ringing loudly and scrambling images completely; quickly switched away here. 1080i sets like ours won't accept 720p HD via component; screens might just go blank, but worse things might happen.

Quote:


If I set the picture to "warm" the glow goes away. The brighter I make the picture, the bigger the glow.

Hmm. I'm sure this must suggest what to do, assuming 'warm' means the standard color temperature option for many displays! -- John
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post #23 of 93 Old 12-28-2007, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I need to become more educated so I know what some of the things you mentioned are.

In the meantime, here's 2 more pix from regular TV:

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post #24 of 93 Old 12-29-2007, 02:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanRC30 View Post

If I set the picture to "warm" the glow goes away.


This is the one thing I can't get past. Are you SURE? Makes absolutely no sense, if actually true -


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post #25 of 93 Old 12-29-2007, 04:44 AM
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Can't make much sense of eliminating the blue glow around bright contrasty objects by switching to a 'warm' color setting either. My similar-vintage Philips CRT RPTV lacks color-temp settings, so can only speculate. If a switch setting, though, eliminates the bluish glow, don't change CRT/lens fluids.

Suspect the lack of glow for the Star Wars DVD plugged into YPbPr HD versus blue outlining for other 480i NTSC cable inputs is a clue. My Philips and likely this one has separate processing for 480i sources (like the RF cable-system coax used) and HD component inputs. The warm color-temp setting, AIUI, does reduce the bluish content of images and the 'cooler' switch setting is injecting too much blue. Philips factory settings, if you go over reviews of grayscale tests in these early 2000s Philips CRT RPTVs, seemed to have an excessive mid-range peak that overemphasize blues with factory settings (but not like this). There's too much on-screen color for that CNBC image and perhaps too much brightness ;(tinker with settings for a more natural looking picture or read up on basic user control settings). Or just switch to warm color temp if that eliminates the 'glow' around the number 9. Besides the color temp switch and user controls, suspect getting into the service menu would provide a wide range of additional adjustments, although changing them without knowing what you're doing, and without somehow recording the factory settings, can nearly ruin a set, requiring a costly tune-up--or long do-it-yourself calibration education. -- John
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post #26 of 93 Old 12-29-2007, 06:01 AM - Thread Starter
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I just changed the temp to warm and you guys are right! It didn't go away!!! I seriously thought it did... I think it might look like less when there's a regular picture because there's less white-on-black, and less bright images altogether since the warm setting seems to darken and dull things a little bit. But when there's a black background and wehite lettering on the screen, it's clearly there... Here's a pic of the same screen with it at warm:

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post #27 of 93 Old 12-29-2007, 07:13 AM
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Not sure excess brightness near the screen center (lettering image above) is consistent--as the CSI actors say--with fluid contamination or not. But if a switch setting and further tinkering with brightness/contrast settings provides an adequate picture, I'd leave it alone. Peering into the blue lens, and seeing identical green/red frame clarity, seems like an important factor. You wrote blue seemed okay.

If the set's suitable for tinkering and learning about maintenance (not totally unacceptable images), changing the blue fluid first and checking, then the others if necessary, may work, too. Big operations like that, of course, can cascade into further glitches, especially lacking service experience. (BTW, guess this is a 4:3 set and 16:9 images are vertically squeezed on the screen--just trying to figure in some relationship to your glitch.) -- John
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post #28 of 93 Old 12-29-2007, 07:44 AM - Thread Starter
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No, it's always in 16x9. Panoramic looks good too though...
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post #29 of 93 Old 12-29-2007, 10:40 AM
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I still think there's contamination in there, it's just extemely hard to make out. I've seen such things settle on a CRT face ONLY, while the rest of the coolant, what you're looking thru to see the CRT face, is clear.

Can you get a shot of just the blue CRT face, so close that the image is inside the round lens face, rather than filling it?

And with a plain white background, then one with one of the images you've shown here, that demo it real good.

Might tell us something more -


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post #30 of 93 Old 12-29-2007, 05:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

I still think there's contamination in there, it's just extemely hard to make out. I've seen such things settle on a CRT face ONLY, while the rest of the coolant, what you're looking thru to see the CRT face, is clear.

Can you get a shot of just the blue CRT face, so close that the image is inside the round lens face, rather than filling it?

And with a plain white background, then one with one of the images you've shown here, that demo it real good.

Might tell us something more -


Mr Bob

Ok, here goes...

I got as close as I could with these shots from Lord of the Rings:


And this is on an angle to show the edge of the CRT:


I wasn't as successful with the white... the camera had nothing to focus on:


And finally, the same image as before:


Did this help any?
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