2008 Samsung DLP's Discussion (HLxxA650/A750) - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 5059 Old 01-14-2008, 11:44 AM
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Most TV stands aren't only a few inches thick, and I would think that a thin flat panel pushed all the way back against the wall on a regular stand would just look stupid. If the TV is going to be placed in the middle of the stand anyway, then what does its depth matter?
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post #92 of 5059 Old 01-14-2008, 11:57 AM
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The thickness of the upcoming 67" LED unit is of interest to me because I live in a Manhattan apt with limited space. My current HLP5674W TV is 18.2" in depth, I couldn't have bought a larger DLP screen then because of the depth limitation. My viewing distance is about 9' at this moment from wall to wall in the living room. Every inch they can take off in the newer units matters to me.
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post #93 of 5059 Old 01-14-2008, 12:56 PM
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"Every inch they can take off in the newer units matters to me."

You and 100 million other folks as well.

What's nice is that as the screens get thinner, more folks will become accepting of the idea of larger and larger screen sizes, thus making more money for the manufacturers as well. It's not a vicious cycle, it's a GREAT cycle!
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post #94 of 5059 Old 01-14-2008, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuvaKuhn View Post

The thickness of the upcoming 67" LED unit is of interest to me because I live in a Manhattan apt with limited space. My current HLP5674W TV is 18.2" in depth, I couldn't have bought a larger DLP screen then because of the depth limitation. My viewing distance is about 9' at this moment from wall to wall in the living room. Every inch they can take off in the newer units matters to me.

Yes, and with the new "slim-line" 12inch DLPs they introduced horrible geometry issues that are not resolvable due to the case design.

Just get another 56 inch. The current 2007 LED model is 14inch deep.

If you *really* want 67 inches, get a bigger apartment first.

If you want a 1 inch thick DLP, it isn't happening. Pray for an OLED set or just bite the bullet and buy an LCD/Plasma.
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post #95 of 5059 Old 01-14-2008, 04:58 PM
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I currently have an HLN5065 Its 4 years old, running strong on the original bulb. No hdmi, but I run component in anyway.
So, how much have these new dlp units changed since then? Worth upgrading, or is there new better stuff within the next few years? I was also thinking of a lcd flatpanel, maybe 60"+. Is DLP still holding its own?
thanks!
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post #96 of 5059 Old 01-14-2008, 05:29 PM
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Move to Bergen County?
67 might be too much for u.. and no surround speakers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuvaKuhn View Post

The thickness of the upcoming 67" LED unit is of interest to me because I live in a Manhattan apt with limited space. My current HLP5674W TV is 18.2" in depth, I couldn't have bought a larger DLP screen then because of the depth limitation. My viewing distance is about 9' at this moment from wall to wall in the living room. Every inch they can take off in the newer units matters to me.

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post #97 of 5059 Old 01-14-2008, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scatter View Post

I currently have an HLN5065 Its 4 years old, running strong on the original bulb. No hdmi, but I run component in anyway.
So, how much have these new dlp units changed since then? Worth upgrading, or is there new better stuff within the next few years? I was also thinking of a lcd flatpanel, maybe 60"+. Is DLP still holding its own?
thanks!

Very reasonable question to ask!

Price-wise the cost of a LCD flat panel >52" is excessive still for mainstream brand names (sony, samsung, sharp, toshiba) Expect to spend a lot of $$ for either a 57" or 65" LCD flat panel.

Since your HLN5065 has been out, you are now dealing with 1080P models with NTSC\\ATSC\\QAM Tuners compared to your HD ready 720P display with only a NTSC tuner. (you need the ATSC\\QAM to receive HD broadcasts)

The models are a bit less deep then yours. My 61" is only 14.4" deep versus your 50" is 17.5 " deep.

The newest models for either 2007 or 2008 offer a choice between bulb back light with color wheel, or the never needs changing LED back light engine with no color wheel and no visible RBE except to the rare few now.

You now have HDMI ports so you can use HD players inputing 1080P content. Also HDMI ports allow upscaling players to work up to 1080P (not the same as true HD media content, but a lot better then SD)

At this time I own a Samsung HLT-6189s and IMHO there is no 60" LCD flat panel to match it performance wise in the same price range. I also have a new Sony LCD flat panel in a another room and PQ is comparable, but the Large LED DLP has no motion artifacts when watching football games.

The 2008 HLxxA650/A750 all offer minor improvements over the 2007 series but they won't be available for several months, so your choice!

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post #98 of 5059 Old 01-14-2008, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

Very reasonable question to ask!

Price-wise the cost of a LCD flat panel >52" is excessive still for mainstream brand names (sony, samsung, sharp, toshiba) Expect to spend a lot of $$ for either a 57" or 65" LCD flat panel.

Since your HLN5065 has been out, you are now dealing with 1080P models with NTSC\\ATSC\\QAM Tuners compared to your HD ready 720P display with only a NTSC tuner. (you need the ATSC\\QAM to receive HD broadcasts)

The models are a bit less deep then yours. My 61" is only 14.4" deep versus your 50" is 17.5 " deep.

The newest models for either 2007 or 2008 offer a choice between bulb back light with color wheel, or the never needs changing LED back light engine with no color wheel and no visible RBE except to the rare few now.

You now have HDMI ports so you can use HD players inputing 1080P content. Also HDMI ports allow upscaling players to work up to 1080P (not the same as true HD media content, but a lot better then SD)

At this time I own a Samsung HLT-6189s and IMHO there is no 60" LCD flat panel to match it performance wise in the same price range. I also have a new Sony LCD flat panel in a another room and PQ is comparable, but the Large LED DLP has no motion artifacts when watching football games.

The 2008 HLxxA650/A750 all offer minor improvements over the 2007 series but they won't be available for several months, so your choice!

John,
how do you like your HLT model. The reason I ask is because I wanted the new 56" LED model tv. But it seems that Samsung isn't going to make 56" LED tv. Should I buy the old 56" HLT or look for something else. I was really excited about this new line and the specs I was reading.

jim
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post #99 of 5059 Old 01-15-2008, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

Very reasonable question to ask!

Price-wise the cost of a LCD flat panel >52" is excessive still for mainstream brand names (sony, samsung, sharp, toshiba) Expect to spend a lot of $$ for either a 57" or 65" LCD flat panel.

Since your HLN5065 has been out, you are now dealing with 1080P models with NTSC\\ATSC\\QAM Tuners compared to your HD ready 720P display with only a NTSC tuner. (you need the ATSC\\QAM to receive HD broadcasts)

The models are a bit less deep then yours. My 61" is only 14.4" deep versus your 50" is 17.5 " deep.

The newest models for either 2007 or 2008 offer a choice between bulb back light with color wheel, or the never needs changing LED back light engine with no color wheel and no visible RBE except to the rare few now.

You now have HDMI ports so you can use HD players inputing 1080P content. Also HDMI ports allow upscaling players to work up to 1080P (not the same as true HD media content, but a lot better then SD)

At this time I own a Samsung HLT-6189s and IMHO there is no 60" LCD flat panel to match it performance wise in the same price range. I also have a new Sony LCD flat panel in a another room and PQ is comparable, but the Large LED DLP has no motion artifacts when watching football games.

The 2008 HLxxA650/A750 all offer minor improvements over the 2007 series but they won't be available for several months, so your choice!

John,

Does the Samsung you own accept 24p? I was looking to buy one of the new sets with 120hz but am wondering if they will show much improvement over last year models. I mainly use this tv for movies and the 24p done correctly would make my decison easier.

thanks,
M1
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post #100 of 5059 Old 01-15-2008, 12:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesb7403 View Post

John,
how do you like your HLT model. The reason I ask is because I wanted the new 56" LED model tv. But it seems that Samsung isn't going to make 56" LED tv. Should I buy the old 56" HLT or look for something else. I was really excited about this new line and the specs I was reading.

jim

Recommended - very good PQ, good blacks, good uniformed brightness. If the 56" works for you size wise great, one to consider!

Between the Sony KDS-xxA3000 series (being phased out) and the Samsung HL-Txx87s/89s series you can do no wrong.

I prefer the Samsung series because of the +100,000 hours life on the LED light engine (uses T-120 Phlatlight LED's), no fan (quiet), instant on and off. The 89s line uses HDMI 1.3a supporting xvYCC (30 bit color), where as 87s uses HDMI 1.2a (24 bit color).

Both displays support 1080P/24hz (87s recent firmware, 89s initial firmware)

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post #101 of 5059 Old 01-15-2008, 12:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m1fuller68 View Post

John,

Does the Samsung you own accept 24p? I was looking to buy one of the new sets with 120hz but am wondering if they will show much improvement over last year models. I mainly use this tv for movies and the 24p done correctly would make my decison easier.

thanks,
M1

Yes, both LED DLP displays support 1080P/24hz (87s recent firmware update, 89s initial firmware). The 2007 LED DLP displays don't have motion processing like the higher-end LCD flat panels to avoid motion artifacts (they don't need it - 16 microseconds response time) but they have a 120 Hz refresh rate (new screen every 8.33 milliseconds). For extreme gamer's TI was showing the Darkchip4 with 240hz technology (hopefully will be in 2008 models). Perhaps people can comment on how much of a benefit that will bring. IMHO I am not sold on 120 hz technology as far as LCD flat panels yet, I could barely perceive any differences.

Which Blu-Ray player are you using if I might ask?

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post #102 of 5059 Old 01-15-2008, 03:16 AM
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Since the LED's are going to be brighter in the 2008 models, is the screen lower gain?
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post #103 of 5059 Old 01-15-2008, 03:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

Yes, both LED DLP displays support 1080P/24hz (87s recent firmware update, 89s initial firmware).* The 2007 LED DLP displays don't have motion processing like the higher-end LCD flat panels to avoid motion artifacts (they don't need it - 16 microseconds response time) but they have a 120 Hz refresh rate (new screen every 8.33 milliseconds).* For extreme gamer's TI was showing the Darkchip4 with 240hz technology (hopefully will be in 2008 models).* Perhaps people can comment on how much of a benefit that will bring.* IMHO I am not sold on 120 hz technology as far as LCD flat panels yet, I could barely perceive any differences.Which Blu-Ray player are you using if I might ask?

Thank you John,I'm using the Panasonic Bluray DMP-30...I have it hooked up to a two year old Samsung 1080P DLP set. (61")I would really like the 24p for movies but am on the fence if the new tech. this year from Samsung will be leaps and bounds from the 07's.Thanks,M1
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post #104 of 5059 Old 01-15-2008, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scatter View Post

I currently have an HLN5065 Its 4 years old, running strong on the original bulb. No hdmi, but I run component in anyway.
So, how much have these new dlp units changed since then? Worth upgrading, or is there new better stuff within the next few years? I was also thinking of a lcd flatpanel, maybe 60"+. Is DLP still holding its own?
thanks!

I asked a very similar question here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=977193

I'm in the same boat as you, have an HLN617W that works great for me, still on original bulb (although it is dimmer now, but I have a replacement waiting), and gives a great picture. I have an opportunity to sell my current set and get a 61" LED DLP for a net cost to me of about $1200.

I'm trying to decide if it is worth it. I would certainly like 1080p for my Blu Ray player, and the instant on and low noise of the LED backlighting. But, I'm not sure if it is really worth the cost, or if I should stick my new bulb in and wait a few more years and see what is out there.

I know the new LED set should have better contrast and picture, but is it worth $1200? The thing I don't like about the '07 model is no HDMI 1.3 and xvYCCC color, so not as "future proof" as the 2008 LED model would be. But, I can't figure out if that stuff will really be any benefit to me over the next 4-5 years. Will anything (Blu Rays????) ever take advantage of these features?
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post #105 of 5059 Old 01-15-2008, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_pro View Post

The thing I don't like about the '07 model is no HDMI 1.3 and xvYCCC color, so not as "future proof" as the 2008 LED model would be. But, I can't figure out if that stuff will really be any benefit to me over the next 4-5 years. Will anything (Blu Rays????) ever take advantage of these features?

You obviously haven't read the feature sets.

The 2007 HL-TXX89S models support HDMI 1.3. Will you notice a difference between 1.2 and 1.3? No. The extra color space is beyond most of people's eyes. It only sounds good in marketing. Just like "upconversion."

LED is completely worth it. Samsung gave the 2007 bulb sets an experimental case design that flopped horribly with huge geometry issues.
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post #106 of 5059 Old 01-15-2008, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooninite View Post

...Samsung gave the 2007 bulb sets an experimental case design that flopped horribly with huge geometry issues.

This is interesting. Do you have any more information, links?
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post #107 of 5059 Old 01-15-2008, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooninite View Post

You obviously haven't read the feature sets.

The 2007 HL-TXX89S models support HDMI 1.3. Will you notice a difference between 1.2 and 1.3? No. The extra color space is beyond most of people's eyes. It only sounds good in marketing. Just like "upconversion."

LED is completely worth it. Samsung gave the 2007 bulb sets an experimental case design that flopped horribly with huge geometry issues.

No, I'm quite aware of the features of the HL-TXX89S model, but the ~$1200 "upgrade" deal I have is only for the HL-TXX87S, which doesn't have the HMDI 1.3 or deep color support. So, I was wondering how important those will be in the next 4-5 years, and if it would be worth passing on this deal and waiting for a 2008. I.e., are the improvements in the HL-T6087S worth $1200 over my 4 year old DLP.
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post #108 of 5059 Old 01-15-2008, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_pro View Post

... are the improvements in the HL-T6087S worth $1200 over my 4 year old DLP.

With a working HLN set, I would wait for the 2008 sets to get into the market. Then I would also wait for the start the normal price cutting that always goes on. You are in the cat bird's seat.

You will also have time to find out if there are any major proplems being found in the 2008 models.
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post #109 of 5059 Old 01-15-2008, 02:05 PM
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Anyone find it strange why the specs are not out?* If I remember in the past, during CES or right after we knew exactly what the specs were.*
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post #110 of 5059 Old 01-15-2008, 02:31 PM
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I have a working HLN as well. My 5-year EW will be up next summer, so anything that goes wrong from that point on means I'll be upgrading rather than fixing.
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post #111 of 5059 Old 01-15-2008, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davegow View Post

This is interesting. Do you have any more information, links?

Um... the official HL-TXX76 thread. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=857157

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_pro View Post

So, I was wondering how important those will be in the next 4-5 years, and if it would be worth passing on this deal and waiting for a 2008. I.e., are the improvements in the HL-T6087S worth $1200 over my 4 year old DLP.

They won't be important. Most hardware that supports 1.3 (besides the PS3) is very expensive. As I said, the color space it adds is indistinguishable to the human eye anyway. Why buy into something that is 1) uberly expensive and 2) you won't even see it with your eyes. Broadcast TV won't support it, which is where 75% of your time will be anyway.
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post #112 of 5059 Old 01-15-2008, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooninite View Post

Um... the official HL-TXX76 thread. ...

Did two searches: "experiment" - no hits, "geometry" - 199 hits, but all related to production TVs.
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post #113 of 5059 Old 01-15-2008, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

I prefer the Samsung series because of the +100,000 hours life on the LED light engine (uses T-120 Phlatlight LED's), no fan (quiet), instant on and off. The 89s line uses HDMI 1.3a supporting xvYCC (30 bit color), where as 87s uses HDMI 1.2a (24 bit color).

Both displays support 1080P/24hz (87s recent firmware, 89s initial firmware)

Where are you getting 100,000 hours from? Everything I have read says 20,000 hours.....

Just curious
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post #114 of 5059 Old 01-15-2008, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleey0 View Post

Where are you getting 100,000 hours from? Everything I have read says 20,000 hours.....

Just curious

The 100,000 hour life span may be from Phlatlight for the 2008 version.

For 2006 Samsung claimed 20,000 hours, and for 2007 Samsung claimed "life of the set". Phlatlight claimed 60,000 hours for their 2007 units.

All LED systems require a new light engine if the LED unit fails. A user who has their TV on 12 hours a day should get, on average, 1, 667 days of use from a unit rated at 20,000 hours. Most owner's of the 2006 models will probably get more.
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post #115 of 5059 Old 01-15-2008, 07:00 PM
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Thanks, htwaits. I figured he meant the 2008 sets.

I am so torn between the getting the 5087S and the 50A3000. I thought buying an HDTV would be fun, rather it has been a headache!
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post #116 of 5059 Old 01-15-2008, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davegow View Post

Did two searches: "experiment" - no hits, "geometry" - 199 hits, but all related to production TVs.

OK let me give you a little background.

I've owned a 2006 HL-S5688W. Bottom up projection like all Samsungs. Nearly perfect geometry.

Replaced with a 2007 HL-T5676S. Bottom reflective off roof. New "Slim-Fit" design. Heavily flawed geometry seen in most sets. Non-repairable.

Replaced with a 2007 HL-T5687S. Bottom up projection like all Samsungs. Nearly perfect geometry.

I've owned three sets, and seen just about them all. I've been on the phone with Samsung for well over a year on their problems. I know exactly how their customer support handles any situation (pathetic right?). Samsung went on a limb with their "Slim-fit" gimmick and it's bitten them in the butt. DLPs are fat. Get over it.
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post #117 of 5059 Old 01-15-2008, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

Recommended - very good PQ, good blacks, good uniformed brightness. If the 56" works for you size wise great, one to consider!

Between the Sony KDS-xxA3000 series (being phased out) and the Samsung HL-Txx87s/89s series you can do no wrong.

I prefer the Samsung series because of the +100,000 hours life on the LED light engine (uses T-120 Phlatlight LED's), no fan (quiet), instant on and off. The 89s line uses HDMI 1.3a supporting xvYCC (30 bit color), where as 87s uses HDMI 1.2a (24 bit color).

Both displays support 1080P/24hz (87s recent firmware, 89s initial firmware)

John thanks for your input. I will take your recommendations in mind. However I will wait just a little while longer to just make sure that when the new LED line is actually out sometime in April, May, June that a 56" isn't also brought out. In the meantime I will comb the web for more info on whether it is in fact only going to be just 61" and 67" LED tv.

Thanks jim
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post #118 of 5059 Old 01-15-2008, 09:45 PM
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I have a question that I would like to put out there. First question if there's mention of the Dark chip4 and it maybe being put in the 2008 model. It's said that it has 500,000 to 1. Just how much do we really need? How much is enough for black blacks and white whites. I thought the HLT (2007) looked pretty good. Someone please chime in who owns the HLT LED tv.

Another question is the 240hz that Texas Instruments was showing off at the CES and could be in the new 2008 LED tv's. What would we need that kind of speed for? Also 2007 HLT LED have 120hz which seems to be pretty good there wasn't any complaints on those tv's that refresh rate is too slow. Since all the previous year models on all big screens were 60hz and people somehow survived with tv's watching sports and action movies.

Thanks again jim,
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post #119 of 5059 Old 01-16-2008, 07:29 AM
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According to technical experts like the ones on CNET and Xtremetech, any contrast over 15000 to 1 or so is not observable to the normal human eye. Higher levels just give bragging rights. Makes sense to me.

As to Hz rates, the holy grail now is 3D, which doubles the work to be done. One eye image uses one frame, the other the next. Thus if you want "true" 120Hz in 3D you need 240Hz. Having seen how good a 120Hz set can look (check out the Toshiba LX177) I can see a reason for that high a rate.

So there is a rationale, although it will probably be a while for this to be a factor since there's no big 3D content available. Personally I doubt that 3D will become popular as long as you need special glasses. I remember 3D movies and that was always the problem there. There are various visual tricks you can pull to give at least a partial impression of depth without that.
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post #120 of 5059 Old 01-16-2008, 09:38 AM
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This is a really informative thread after all. I was disappointed during and right after CES, but thankfully you guys have continued to contribute info and opinion. . .I'm kind of in the same boat, if I see DC4 and 240Hz in Samsung this year it will be hard to put off replacing my HLN whose contrast is really starting to bother me. At least it looks great for most sports!

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