Would you consider CRT technology superior to LCD or Plasma? - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 286 Old 03-14-2011, 09:19 PM
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"Digital jitter"? Sounds like something Monster Cable would invent? "Uh yeah, this cable shields you from translucent optimetrical distortion interference."

Digital jitter is when you look at a Plasma or LCD Tv and even when you're in HD, (1080p or 720p) when a very fast movement or scene change occurs and the TV can't keep up. Easy to see when up close and even from afar on low-end LCD's, Plasma's and CRT's that can't multisync. You know, the square pixelation. It's not response time (another stupid selling point that has no goal (LCD's will alway's lag)) but the video card that can't generate the signal perfectly. Plasma TV's in sizes over 42" generate this a lot, so do LCD and CRT rear projection.(Obviously HD models with a video processor) Only high-end TV's with a high-end video card can keep this to a minimum (in HD...) or high-end multisync CRT.
Also, no cable is gonna save you from signal loss from the video card.
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post #152 of 286 Old 03-16-2011, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBI View Post

If my 960 dies I still have the 910 & a Samsung HD CRT as back up.. I don't see me getting a flat panel anytime soon. I bought a 42inch LCD as still regret the day I bought it.. I mean.. It's great as a monitor, but for DVDs looks like shiat..

Same with my DVD-R recordings when upconverted to 1080p. They look great on the 960 (1080i only) but crap on my 32 inch LCD with oversaturated color and contrast which cannot be adjusted properly with user settings and most importantly, movement jitter (not pixilation but jagged-type movement as if a few frames had been spliced out of the print). To play my recordings properly, I have to cancel out the up-converting. Changing the monitor to film-based content has no effect, neither does changing the resolution to 1080i or 720p.

Doesn't happen on my commerical DVDs - those can be played with 1080p output - just the ones I record. Anyone have an idea as to why? Could it be the player more than the monitor.

Note my 32 inch LCD outputs at 720p but accepts signals up to 1080p.
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post #153 of 286 Old 03-17-2011, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neccrttv View Post

Digital jitter is when you look at a Plasma or LCD Tv and even when you're in HD, (1080p or 720p) when a very fast movement or scene change occurs and the TV can't keep up. Easy to see when up close and even from afar on low-end LCD's, Plasma's and CRT's that can't multisync. You know, the square pixelation. It's not response time (another stupid selling point that has no goal (LCD's will alway's lag)) but the video card that can't generate the signal perfectly. Plasma TV's in sizes over 42" generate this a lot, so do LCD and CRT rear projection.(Obviously HD models with a video processor) Only high-end TV's with a high-end video card can keep this to a minimum (in HD...) or high-end multisync CRT.
Also, no cable is gonna save you from signal loss from the video card.

You'd be surprised how well 120hz / 240hz LCDs handle motion nowadays (referring to camera panning and the judder effect)

Kuro plasmas have a mode called PureCinema which when enabled allows smoother camera pans, I tested this with a Bluray and camera pans where actually more fluid than they are on my 960.

The difference is sort of like when comparing 30fps vs. 60fps.
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post #154 of 286 Old 03-18-2011, 07:08 AM
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You'd be surprised how well 120hz / 240hz LCDs handle motion nowadays (referring to camera panning and the judder effect)

Kuro plasmas have a mode called PureCinema which when enabled allows smoother camera pans, I tested this with a Bluray and camera pans where actually more fluid than they are on my 960.

The difference is sort of like when comparing 30fps vs. 60fps.

It's not the 240hz stuff that will change quality image. It's better video cards in newer sets. I've seen older (first) sharp models that had better motion handling than newer 1080p sets. As long as they are digital, the video card has to be top notch to handle HD signals without any loss.
A lot of 240hz sets even generate more artifacts than 120hz ones.
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post #155 of 286 Old 03-18-2011, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neccrttv View Post

It's not the 240hz stuff that will change quality image. It's better video cards in newer sets. I've seen older (first) sharp models that had better motion handling than newer 1080p sets. As long as they are digital, the video card has to be top notch to handle HD signals without any loss.
A lot of 240hz sets even generate more artifacts than 120hz ones.

Sounds like you're talking more about Macroblocking which is due to the average bitrate being to low .. but this isnt the TVs fault, I see this effect on certain Comcast HD channels but never when watching a Bluray disc (which runs at a far higher bitrate)

For example
During motion the resolution becomes blocky such as in this image:



Same frame but at a higher bitrate:


Images taken from this Comcast HD quality reduced thread.
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post #156 of 286 Old 03-18-2011, 06:36 PM
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Yeah, bitrate is a given but obviously, the signal quality is lower...
I was talking about video card jitter. Compare two TV's with the same blu-ray source, not different images. Of course the bitrate is higher in a Blu-Ray.
Image quality can be better on a 120hz LCD with a high-end video card than a 240hz nobrand LCD with a low-end video card with the same video signal.
120hz or 240hz will affect image but not by much.

CRT monitors like mine have no jitter whatever the signal quality, be it 1080p(yes it goes in 1080p in component unlike the 960), 720p ,1080i, 480i or 480p. Heck it even goes up to QXGA.


I've compared a LOT of TV's and even costly 240hz TV's (Sony, LG,etc.) can have a lower quality image in 1080p than a low cost TV with a good video card.

Look at a 60PG30 from LG and you will see low quality video card in a high cost TV. A standard CRT in SD looks better! It was as if it was in SD and it's a 1080p set on a bluray from a PS3 in HDMI.
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post #157 of 286 Old 03-18-2011, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathesar View Post

You'd be surprised how well 120hz / 240hz LCDs handle motion nowadays (referring to camera panning and the judder effect)

Kuro plasmas have a mode called PureCinema which when enabled allows smoother camera pans, I tested this with a Bluray and camera pans where actually more fluid than they are on my 960.

The difference is sort of like when comparing 30fps vs. 60fps.

Are you talking about that phony effect that I've seen on some lcd panels in retail stores? It's like cartoons where they add in-betweens. Everything moves at the same pace, like they're moving around in a pool of water... it's so un-natural looking.

I'll take persistence of phosphor any day over that.
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post #158 of 286 Old 03-18-2011, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neccrttv View Post

Yeah, bitrate is a given but obviously, the signal quality is lower...
I was talking about video card jitter. Compare two TV's with the same blu-ray source, not different images. Of course the bitrate is higher in a Blu-Ray.
Image quality can be better on a 120hz LCD with a high-end video card than a 240hz nobrand LCD with a low-end video card with the same video signal.
120hz or 240hz will affect image but not by much.

CRT monitors like mine have no jitter whatever the signal quality, be it 1080p(yes it goes in 1080p in component unlike the 960), 720p ,1080i, 480i or 480p. Heck it even goes up to QXGA.


I've compared a LOT of TV's and even costly 240hz TV's (Sony, LG,etc.) can have a lower quality image in 1080p than a low cost TV with a good video card.

Look at a 60PG30 from LG and you will see low quality video card in a high cost TV. A standard CRT in SD looks better! It was as if it was in SD and it's a 1080p set on a bluray from a PS3 in HDMI.

Yea guess it depends on the model then, I haven't seen this effect you speak of between my Kuro & 960.
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post #159 of 286 Old 04-10-2011, 07:43 PM
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I was suddenly handed two luxury box tickets for the Mets home opener on Friday (at $189 a pop, they were the best seats I ever had and could never afford) which included access to a private lounge. It got quite cold so my wife and I caught the last three innings from inside where it was heated. Although we were able to look out onto the field there were also flat screen monitors on the wall carrying the game. I could not believe how poor quality the HD was compared to our CRT (Sony KD34XBR960). Will admit the user settings could have used some adjustment but still, the life-like quality was not there. Saw some of the replay of the game when we got home and the picture quality was indeed like night and day.

Mets lost the game anyway.
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post #160 of 286 Old 04-20-2011, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by homerging View Post

Yes, vinyl sounds better because they're not affected by the loudness war

Most LCD computer monitors are poor quality, using the cheapest panel technologies. The best LCD monitors are much better all round and you shouldn't accept anything less when buying an LCD.

Most people are very undiscerning. They listen to low bitrate MP3s, buy surround sound systems that are all subwoofer, buy large LCD televisions and plug them in via composite cables and say "ooh it's so clear". Many retailers hardly stock Blu-rays nearly five years after introduction.

In buying a television improving the picture quality experience comes below wanting to feel they've got something substantial in size, buzz-words and modernty to feel like they've kept up socially.Having a CRT is seen to be like driving an old rust bucket car. It is a foolish way of thinking but very common.

Gee I guess hubby and I old a bunch of OLD farts. We own 10 old cars (newest is my '94) and have a big old CRT in every room. He has never met an old tv he didnt bring home

On the other hand, our Sony XBR970 has a gorgeous picture with both SD and HD broadcasts and that '78 Camaro Z28 is a beauty cruising down the road.

Guess I'd rather be an old fart

An "Analog Kid" in a digital world
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post #161 of 286 Old 04-23-2011, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Dubin View Post

I was suddenly handed two luxury box tickets for the Mets home opener on Friday (at $189 a pop, they were the best seats I ever had and could never afford) which included access to a private lounge. It got quite cold so my wife and I caught the last three innings from inside where it was heated. Although we were able to look out onto the field there were also flat screen monitors on the wall carrying the game. I could not believe how poor quality the HD was compared to our CRT (Sony KD34XBR960). Will admit the user settings could have used some adjustment but still, the life-like quality was not there. Saw some of the replay of the game when we got home and the picture quality was indeed like night and day.

Mets lost the game anyway.

You surley must have been imagining things.

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post #162 of 286 Old 04-23-2011, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by KBI View Post
You surley must have been imagining things.
Assume you mean about the Mets - they've actually won three in a row but few can afford the tickets to see them.
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post #163 of 286 Old 04-23-2011, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by rushfan2112 View Post
Gee I guess hubby and I old a bunch of OLD farts. We own 10 old cars (newest is my '94) and have a big old CRT in every room. He has never met an old tv he didnt bring home

On the other hand, our Sony XBR970 has a gorgeous picture with both SD and HD broadcasts and that '78 Camaro Z28 is a beauty cruising down the road.

Guess I'd rather be an old fart
There's a lot of us out there who feel the same as you do, and it's not purely due to sentimental reasons. And I don't consider myself an "old fart" yet though at times I sure feel like one.
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post #164 of 286 Old 04-28-2011, 01:41 PM
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Hey has anyone seen that Stanley Steemer commercial where the driver pulls the van over to the side of the road when he sees an old carpet tossed out with the trash?

He cries out "Why??? I couldve saved this one!!" then he cries as he hugs the carpet.

Well that reminds me of the time my husband saw a console tv someone had left at the curbside that had stayed out all night in the rain. He was heart broken.

This is why I dont dare let him visit our local Goodwill store, thre are over a dozen CRT's lined up along the wall just begging for a new home

An "Analog Kid" in a digital world
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post #165 of 286 Old 04-28-2011, 09:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow, I'd forgotten I posted this thread. Nice to see it's still going with so much input!

One thing I wondered that I haven't tried yet:

Has anyone plugged in their PC through the component or HDMI/DVI input of their HD CRTs?

I was curious as to the picture quality or any overscan issues.

I don't wish to surf the web one it but it would be nice to play PC games or watch HD movies through my PC if it looks nice enough.

Anyone?
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post #166 of 286 Old 04-29-2011, 08:38 PM
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I use mine (36" HDCRT NEC XP37+) for the PC all the time but in VGA(DB15). Well, it's a monitor... so of course no overscan issues since all adjustments like width, height, pin, overscan underscan, position,etc are just 1 touch of a button on the remote. I'll have to try it on the computer in HDMI now that I made my own HDMI to component converter. Tried it for the XBOX360 but not for the PC yet. (XBOX quality was perfect in hdmi and component 720p/1080i/1080p)
I know my max resolution is 2046x1538 in VGA but I'll be limited to 1080i in HDMI since my converter does not support 1080p (TV supports 1080p in component).

I'll try maybe with a Toshiba 34HF85C and post up when it's repaired (flyback went bad.)
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post #167 of 286 Old 04-30-2011, 04:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neccrttv View Post

I use mine (36" HDCRT NEC XP37+) for the PC all the time but in VGA(DB15). Well, it's a monitor... so of course no overscan issues since all adjustments like width, height, pin, overscan underscan, position,etc are just 1 touch of a button on the remote. I'll have to try it on the computer in HDMI now that I made my own HDMI to component converter. Tried it for the XBOX360 but not for the PC yet. (XBOX quality was perfect in hdmi and component 720p/1080i/1080p)
I know my max resolution is 2046x1538 in VGA but I'll be limited to 1080i in HDMI since my converter does not support 1080p (TV supports 1080p in component).

I'll try maybe with a Toshiba 34HF85C and post up when it's repaired (flyback went bad.)

Looking forward to it, especially with that Toshiba as I just landed that same model, only in 30", yesterday for $50 from a local seller.

I just don't have room right now to test it with a computer until I finish moving.
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post #168 of 286 Old 04-30-2011, 07:55 PM
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Should look ok for video purposes but the dot pitch of the Toshiba HD CRTs is no where near as fine as a CRT computer monitor so browsing the web or anything like that looks pretty crappy and text will never be all that sharp either for the same reasons. Basically don't get your hopes up too high cause you'll be disappointed compared to a CRT monitor.
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post #169 of 286 Old 05-01-2011, 09:38 AM
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neccrttv,

Any your monitor photos?
What's the max resolution?
Able to input 1920X1080 progressive?

Chung
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post #170 of 286 Old 05-01-2011, 03:41 PM
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Yeah it can sync easily 1080p. It syncs up to QXGA with prefect quality. Of course dot pitch is not as high as FD Trinitrons but you CAN READ the time and your icons on the desktop even at 2048x1536..
It's 4:3 but who cares at that size. Since the Hight, Width are all adjustable on remote, you can mess with geometry on scenes or games you don't care on the X360( Forza,etc) and put it at 1600x1200 (or QXGA ) for games on the PC.
It has 1 component/RGBHV input and one DB15 input. It also has 2 S-Video/RCA inputs. This monster can even sync 720p at 120hz so it can be used for 3D on the PS3. Weight is not bad considering size (36" viewable). My old CS-3725C (Mitsubishi) weighed at least 50 pounds heavier.
Camera is a bit lame and real camera went bad (hard as hell taking a pic of a monitor when it's running and image is nowhere as near as good as what it really looks like)

And no, the screen is intact, just a flashback effect.


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post #171 of 286 Old 05-01-2011, 10:22 PM
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Wow! You use this monster for games only?
or also using for watching HDTV?

Compared with current plasma or LECTV, which one is good?,
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post #172 of 286 Old 05-02-2011, 06:24 AM
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I use it for games, movies, and as a PC monitor but I don't watch that much TV but I could connect it anytime to a HD cable/satelitte/antenna receiver since it has a component input and I also made my own HDMI to component converter for less than 10$(see my post on this forum) for when I'd like to watch a blu-ray or anything that needs HDMI.
Plasma, LCD and almost all recent tech look bad compared to this. These TV's are analog HDTV's(multisync - no fixed screen resolution - Mitsubishi made Diamondtron tube I think) so NO loss whatsoever in component and DB15. No jitter/digital noise like XBR's and Toshiba sets and plasma TV's. No response time and loss of precision during movement, etc so advantaged over LCD.
MSRP of this TV was between 15k to 30000$ and they still sell for over 2k (if you can find one )
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post #173 of 286 Old 05-02-2011, 07:52 AM
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Do you know what's the main difference between NEC XP37 Plus and Extra?
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post #174 of 286 Old 05-02-2011, 08:44 AM
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Ha, thanks for getting me to look into that. I thought I had the + while I had the Xtra. The XP37+ (XP3790) has a 35" viewable screen while the XP37 Xtra (XP3791- mine) has a 36" viewable CRT. Also the XP3791 supports up to 100khz horizontal and 120hz vertical while the XP37+ supports up to 95khz horizontal. The Xp3790 can't sync to QXGA since QXGA needs a horizontal frequency of 96khz or more.

Same thing for the XM3760/XM3761. The XM37+ has a 65khz max horizontal frequency while the XM37 Xtra has a max h.frequency of 70khz so it supports 1080p (67.5khz at 60hz vert.)
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post #175 of 286 Old 05-02-2011, 09:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffo View Post

Should look ok for video purposes but the dot pitch of the Toshiba HD CRTs is no where near as fine as a CRT computer monitor so browsing the web or anything like that looks pretty crappy and text will never be all that sharp either for the same reasons. Basically don't get your hopes up too high cause you'll be disappointed compared to a CRT monitor.

I realize that even using HDMI, no widescreen CRT TV will look as sharp as a CRT monitor.

I'm sure even the XBR960 makes for a poor PC monitor but I'm only curious about video material and games being displayed through it.
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post #176 of 286 Old 05-02-2011, 11:18 PM
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Very true. It would be fine for games and video purposes. I have a Toshiba HD CRT also so I've been down that road before.
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post #177 of 286 Old 05-03-2011, 08:04 AM
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Is it worth to try XP37 plus if available?
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post #178 of 286 Old 05-03-2011, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chung View Post

Is it worth to try XP37 plus if available?

Of course depending on price. The Xp37+ is still capable of 1080p and 720p since it's max resolution is 1600x1200. 1600x1200 @75hz requires 93.75khz horizontal and the max is 95khz so no problem.
Any XP+ model is worth it. The XP29+ and the XP29 Xtra are also capable of all these resolutions.

Here's a link of some resolutions with their respective horizontal freq.
http://www.qapla.org/ppc/modes.txt

The XP37+/XP29+ is as good as mine all day. There's no need for QXGA really. Just don't pay 2000$ for it lol.
Find some person who doesn't know what he's selling. I got mine for 100$ and had to drive 12-13h straight to get it but it was worth it.
I don't have a link to the manual of the xp37+ but here's the manual of the Xp29 (it's the same except for screen size and dot pitch. 0.87vs 0.6 for the xp29)
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source...zXkRi2Q1Ln72Jw
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post #179 of 286 Old 05-04-2011, 08:38 AM
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According to info, NECXP or XM accept RGBHV, not component input!?
How to connect blueray
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post #180 of 286 Old 05-04-2011, 03:49 PM
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Well,another difference between the XP37+ and the Xtra. The Xtra are R(Pr,Cr) G(Y) B(Pb,Cb) inputs while the Plus only has RGB.

Some blu-rays could have the option of RGB in the menu. You can select progressive, RGB, s-video, etc and make the output of the RedGB cables really become RGB. The HV is not necessary since the monitors sync on green signal. Should work directly. Check the manual before buying.

Or you can get a PS3 and put the output to RGB and there, you have both a blu-ray and a game console.
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